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Rick Burnett
08-02-2011, 04:14 PM
Every time I get a new camera, I find things that I wish the manufacturer would address. I plan on sending these to Sony, but I want to find out if others have anything else to add to this list. While I've not shot a huge amount with my FS100, some of these things have annoyed me from day 1.

1) The lag when changing framerates or shutter speeds is way too high. It takes so long for the display to change, most times I go right past the setting I want and have to go back. Instead of changing instantly to the new setting, it would be better to allow switching to the value you want and letting the software catch up to the last setting you are at. No other camera I use has this much lag and it makes the camera feel sluggish.

2) When I close the LCD panel on the camera, the histogram should continue to work on an external display, but it doesn't. This is a bug.

3) When I hit marker, all of the info on the external screen disappears. This is a bug.

4) I would like to be able to see 1:1, focus peaking, and zebras on the external display and not just the internal display.

5) Preset names would be nice, so we could easily remember what they are for if we are using many of them.

What would you like to see addressed?

Kraut69
08-02-2011, 04:28 PM
Why is it that video cameras always seem to have gain settings selectable on a L/M/H switch, but you have to go into the menu to change the three settings? Should be able to change the gain setting like you change the audio level setting, iris setting, etc. Instant accessabilty and you instantly see the results. Would that be breaking one of the Fundamental Laws of Physics?

Rick Burnett
08-02-2011, 04:34 PM
I agree. When I went from my 7D to the AF100 and the FS100 I was amazed I couldn't dial through the gain and get exactly what I wanted. Personally I think people using older cameras just adjusted Iris since the sensor was so small, most everything was in focus anyways so DoF wasn't such a concern :) But now, with larger sensors, I don't want to touch the Iris. That is a request I have as well, maybe a mode where you select H gain and then use a button and the dial to pick exactly what you want. Would be nice, that is for sure.

Kraut69
08-02-2011, 04:36 PM
Tell them to change the labels on the assignable buttons to white lettering. The dark letters can't even be read in daylight unless you stick you eyes 5 inches away.

Kraut69
08-02-2011, 04:48 PM
I know we will all change the assignable buttons but putting something as disruptive to your shooting as "LAST SCENE" in the bottom row of the assignable buttons, right above the button row where your fumbly fingers are constantly adjusting important functions, while shooting makes me think someone in the design department is not using this camera.

Rick Burnett
08-02-2011, 04:55 PM
I will just use labels on mine if I need too. :)

TimurCivan
08-02-2011, 05:18 PM
I implore you. Set you iso in one place, and adjust your exposure with lights, ND, and iris. You will get better consistency and a "filmic look". (Consistency is a big part of it).

The dslr's teach bad habits. Iso is not an adjust ment for exposure.

Rick Burnett
08-02-2011, 05:32 PM
I implore you. Set you iso in one place, and adjust your exposure with lights, ND, and iris. You will get better consistency and a "filmic look". (Consistency is a big part of it).

The dslr's teach bad habits. Iso is not an adjust ment for exposure.

To be honest, we've just never had a problem with consistency shooting with the 7D. The biggest issue with the 7D was noise over 1600ISO but under that, I used all the ISO settings and it's never been an issue. I've also shot with the AF100 and the FS100 using ND and Iris as well, and I just don't see that big a difference in the results. I think it really comes down to how much noise the camera puts out and with the FS100, it's pretty clean. I mean, it's A LOT more consistent than say a movie shot on film shifting from fast to slow film, where the difference in grain is EXTREME.

I've spent a lot of time talking to people about this, and the issue I have is I think gain should be selectable in smaller increments. If I am using non variable ND, and a fixed ISO, then my only choice is lights or Iris. But I don't want to tweak the Iris, as I want a consistent DoF for some shots. I like to use found light with added light all the time, and in those cases, if the sun is coming in and out of clouds all day, I try to nail the same exposure. By small changes in gain, I can keep the image pretty similar.

I know that people are not used to using ISO for exposure, because in the film world, we didn't have that. In addition, like I said, noise differences in older cameras created extremely differences in look. But now, with something as clean as the FS100, it's a different world. And testing the ISO settings as I have, I have no worry the image would be consistent.

Rick Burnett
08-02-2011, 05:32 PM
I forgot to add:

Add more frame rate options in the slower range. 23,22,21,20, etc. These are used shooting certain types of action scenes and would be REALLY useful.

AndyInBuffalo
08-02-2011, 08:08 PM
Tell them to change the labels on the assignable buttons to white lettering. The dark letters can't even be read in daylight unless you stick you eyes 5 inches away.

Amen.

Alpern
08-02-2011, 09:01 PM
I implore you. Set you iso in one place, and adjust your exposure with lights, ND, and iris. You will get better consistency and a "filmic look". (Consistency is a big part of it).

The dslr's teach bad habits. Iso is not an adjust ment for exposure.

How many videographers does it take to change a light bulb? None that is what ISO if for :). But yes I would like to be able to change my ISO like you can on a DSLR.

MattDavis
08-02-2011, 11:34 PM
There definitely needs to be a consistency in the menus.

So often, one makes a change, and then the camera hangs around with a black screen with a couple of buttons on it, waiting for somebody to do something about it (usually by having to use the roller as one has the chimney over the touchscreen). Other times, one makes a change and it just happens after a couple of seconds of 'think' time. IIRC, there's a point at which one might accidentally press the iris button instead of Expanded Focus. It brings up a message about it being 'invalid' and gives you an option to select okay and cancel (?!), but doesn't go away of its own accord. Expletively irritating. I may have got the minutae wrong, but that's the overriding memory of the sort of howlers buried not-so-deep in its interface.

I'd sit down with the camera and work all this out, but I'm en-route to a job that happens to be NTSC, so having to use EX1R and 550D. The PAL/NTSC 'upgrade' can't come soon enough, but if we can squash a few interface bugs at the same time, it would be grand.

BTW, I have some notes I made about the EX1 when I first purchased it. It was a bit scathing about all sorts of things (build quality, interface, ergonomics, etc) but is now a revered camera. I've been a bit nasty to my FS100 as of late (even threatened it with eBay to be replaced by a 5d), but I'm sure it will work out over time.

maarek
08-03-2011, 12:40 AM
I implore you. Set you iso in one place, and adjust your exposure with lights, ND, and iris. You will get better consistency and a "filmic look". (Consistency is a big part of it). The dslr's teach bad habits. Iso is not an adjust ment for exposure.

No. Film teaches bad habbits. Film teaches us that to change the lighting slightly you have to go and adjust lights, have a coffee break for 5 minutes as the crew wonders around and takes readings. If you just change the iris then the look will be different.

DSLR's teach us that you can just push a button and keep shooting.

Postmaster
08-03-2011, 01:33 AM
24 and 60 frames for European models + 10 bit out of the HDMI and Iīm a happy camper.

Frank

Rick Burnett
08-03-2011, 04:26 AM
How many videographers does it take to change a light bulb? None that is what ISO if for :). But yes I would like to be able to change my ISO like you can on a DSLR.

ROFL!!!!! That is just awesome.

Rick Burnett
08-03-2011, 04:27 AM
There definitely needs to be a consistency in the menus.

So often, one makes a change, and then the camera hangs around with a black screen with a couple of buttons on it, waiting for somebody to do something about it (usually by having to use the roller as one has the chimney over the touchscreen). Other times, one makes a change and it just happens after a couple of seconds of 'think' time. IIRC, there's a point at which one might accidentally press the iris button instead of Expanded Focus. It brings up a message about it being 'invalid' and gives you an option to select okay and cancel (?!), but doesn't go away of its own accord. Expletively irritating. I may have got the minutae wrong, but that's the overriding memory of the sort of howlers buried not-so-deep in its interface.

I'd sit down with the camera and work all this out, but I'm en-route to a job that happens to be NTSC, so having to use EX1R and 550D. The PAL/NTSC 'upgrade' can't come soon enough, but if we can squash a few interface bugs at the same time, it would be grand.

BTW, I have some notes I made about the EX1 when I first purchased it. It was a bit scathing about all sorts of things (build quality, interface, ergonomics, etc) but is now a revered camera. I've been a bit nasty to my FS100 as of late (even threatened it with eBay to be replaced by a 5d), but I'm sure it will work out over time.

Yeah, the lag on some of the setting changes is really annoying. I can accept it for things I don't change often, but on framerate and shutter speed, I do not like. Both my 7D and AF100 feel much more snappy.

dcloud
08-03-2011, 09:05 AM
id like to get my hands on an fs100 one of these days.

TimurCivan
08-03-2011, 09:57 AM
No. Film teaches bad habbits. Film teaches us that to change the lighting slightly you have to go and adjust lights, have a coffee break for 5 minutes as the crew wonders around and takes readings. If you just change the iris then the look will be different.

DSLR's teach us that you can just push a button and keep shooting.


........

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
08-03-2011, 10:26 AM
No. Film teaches bad habbits. Film teaches us that to change the lighting slightly you have to go and adjust lights, have a coffee break for 5 minutes as the crew wonders around and takes readings. If you just change the iris then the look will be different.

DSLR's teach us that you can just push a button and keep shooting.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVsXUZnn9bY


37782

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Thanks!

-Ryan P. O'Hara
Cinematography & Lighting Section Moderator

William_Robinette
08-03-2011, 10:42 AM
No. Film teaches bad habbits. Film teaches us that to change the lighting slightly you have to go and adjust lights, have a coffee break for 5 minutes as the crew wonders around and takes readings. If you just change the iris then the look will be different.

DSLR's teach us that you can just push a button and keep shooting.

The microwave generation.

TimurCivan
08-03-2011, 10:58 AM
Haha... ok ok.

Back on track FS100, take it away!

Rick Burnett
08-03-2011, 11:11 AM
Haha :) Everyone works different, people need to remember that. Camera makers do try to make their cameras work in a variety of situations, for a variety of users, that's why there are options and not permanent on features! :) I think technology is changing faster than methodologies. There is nothing wrong with doing it any particular way if you get the results you want. With these new cameras, I'd like more ISO control (which is basically just gain control) so I can dial in what I want and not be confined to such large steps. But, that's not for everyone and I don't think they should get rid of L/M/H for those that prefer consistent exposure. Their desires are no less important than my own.

tom.wong
08-03-2011, 12:05 PM
just remember gents, dynamic range is a look too. and changing your iso, changes that. whether you see it straight out of camera or not, once it hits the color suite, what you shot is what you get. these cameras aren't shooting RAW :)

Rick Burnett
08-03-2011, 12:17 PM
just remember gents, dynamic range is a look too. and changing your iso, changes that. whether you see it straight out of camera or not, once it hits the color suite, what you shot is what you get. these cameras aren't shooting RAW :)

No doubt, that is true. A lot of that depends on the noise floor as well as the sensitivity. I've spent a lot of time with the 7D, AF100 and FS100 looking at the ISO values. Especially with the 7D. We've shot A LOT of material and we changed our ISO settings constantly on these shoots with two different cameras. We've never had an issue with something shot relatively around the same ISO being different. In fact, that in itself is the whole problem. Because I have to pick 3 gain values, if I am shooting in a lot of variety, the difference is extreme. I don't want to add more gain than I need then use ND or iris to bring it back down as that is just introducing more noise than I need (in situations where I cannot add more light for whatever reason).

Believe me, I've had this discussion about ISO before I even received my AF100 and there are those that want it and those that don't. I've studied the results from my cameras and I am confident that using multiple ISO values is a HUGE value add to me with my shooting style. We've NEVER had a complaint about our material, but for ourselves or our clients. I pixel peep. I do VFX, so I know what risks I am taking. With the FS100, it is even better than both the AF100 and 7D on this regard because the image is so noise free.

tom.wong
08-03-2011, 12:47 PM
to each their own :)

personally i don't find ever find a dslr noise free, at any iso, cause once that camera heats up, so does the noise. There are very few cameras I qualify that have any noise free ISO's, and same with acceptable looking noise. but the "principles" are just that, it's not the end all be all, but it's there for a reason, to help you figure out the best way to get the best looking image you physically can in your given situation. and generally speaking, to do that is to set your ISO for the look you want, dynamic range wise, and use the rest to mold image. everything is is situational.

Rick Burnett
08-03-2011, 01:05 PM
It is my experience that people just have different ways they like to do things. I agree that DSLR are not noise free, but then if we compare to something like the HVX200, which we have as well, it's certainly a lot more noise free in more shooting situations than the HVX. With the FS100, it is SUBSTANTIALLY cleaner than the 7D. To the point it is actually scary. The problem I have is that if you are using fixed ND filters, or, Iris steps, The distance between those steps, to me, is quite a bit. If I am just clipping a little bit more than I want and just want to reduce the gain a little bit, I don't see why I wouldn't want to be able to adjust the gain accordingly in my situation. The difference say in an equivalent ISO320 and ISO400 in my tests on the 7D were not huge. In fact, on the AF100, I'd just set the H/M/L to very close values and just constantly change them throughout the day as the day changed. The differences in noise and DR in those small ranges are pretty small. With my AF100 settings and these particular days, I didn't see a difference, they all looked fantastic honestly.

The problem is, one school of thought is film. You have to change your film itself to change ISO. However, in almost all films, they do that now, and the difference in quality is extreme. It amazes me how much grain is in night shots on film that are released, and how different that is from the day shots that are MUCH cleaner.

The second school of thought is small sensor video cameras. The DoF is already so deep that adjusting the Iris makes sense on those cameras. The extreme difference in noise depending on gain, like on the HVX200, is another reason to avoid a lot of different gain values on those cameras. If on the FS100 the noise goes up .5% between two gain values and say 2% on the HVX (and this is theoretical) than the difference is VERY noticeable. On the 7D I NEVER shot over 1600ISO and even then, that was in a dire situation where I had no choice on the shot. I typically used all the settings at 1000ISO and below, and the consistency in the shot looked fine to me. Now with the FS100, those difference in noise between on gain value and another are even smaller, and I think that accessing sensor gain on the FS100 is DEFINITELY a positive thing given the quality of the results.

A third school of thought is Red, where there is NO adjustable gain setting period. Sure, you can set an ISO to view what it would look like, but you cannot adjust the gain at all. This would be akin to film really, but one film. Their setting is based on the noise floor of the sensor and the noise floor of the converters, I am assuming, and recording enough A/D range that all the information you could ever get out of the camera is recorded RAW. Nothing wrong with that either, but they have the bit depth to do that.

I personally feel cameras are going to continue to get more and more noise free. Don't forget, the sensor in the FS100 actually gets information at > 8-bits. Therefore, if I need to gain up the output from the sensor in analog to put it where I want in those 8-bits, I want to place it PRECISELY in there as best I can. Without Raw OR a larger bit depth, I have no other choice.

maarek
08-05-2011, 12:29 AM
and generally speaking, to do that is to set your ISO for the look you want, dynamic range wise, and use the rest to mold image. everything is is situational.

Have to do disagree here. You set the ISO as low as you can always. If there is a problem with lighting then you bring it up, if for example you want to use f4 instead of f2.8 and can't up the lighting.

You don't set the ISO or gain to do a "look". I've heard that some people have upped ISO to get grain but that is something that can be done afterwards way smarter.

Kraut69
08-05-2011, 06:16 PM
The sound level meter buried deep in the menu behind the STATUS CHECK button is way more reassuring to me than tiny little gauge we are given on the usual display.

As important as sound is, I wouldn't mind having those big STATUS CHECK level meters filling up a good part of the screen full time as an option. I may be wrong, but they seem to be more responsive????????? as well as easier to view.

morgan_moore
08-05-2011, 10:06 PM
Wow - Id never seen those meters - thanks!

Id love them on the litle screen and not going to the main monitor!

S

Kraut69
08-06-2011, 06:42 PM
If the 5 sec/10sec etc pre-record cache can be done with firmware, I'll take that, too.

Kraut69
08-07-2011, 06:08 AM
I don't see any way in the timecode menu to enable display of clip duration. Also the EX1 feature of showing how long your finished time lapse shot will be is nice.

Kraut69
08-07-2011, 09:07 AM
I do not know the history of how Sony does firmware upgrades, but they need to adopt a policy of doing them on a frequent basis as updates are perfected instead of waiting around a year or whatever their policy is and doing them in a big lump.

Kraut69
08-10-2011, 07:20 PM
regarding item :2) When I close the LCD panel on the camera, the histogram should continue to work on an external display, but it doesn't. This is a bug.

....................my histogram appears on the DP6 when the lcd panel on the camera is turned off, facing down.

NEVER MIND: I knew I couldn't believe my eyes, the histogram is there, but it isn't changing.

Kraut69
08-10-2011, 07:21 PM
On the delete clip menu, I would like to see a SELECT ALL box, instead of having to hit each clip with your finger to select them one at a time, or am I missing something. Right now I'm shooting a lot of test shots, doing a lot of deleting.

Rick Burnett
08-10-2011, 09:18 PM
regarding item :2) When I close the LCD panel on the camera, the histogram should continue to work on an external display, but it doesn't. This is a bug.

....................my histogram appears on the DP6 when the lcd panel on the camera is turned off, facing down.

NEVER MIND: I knew I couldn't believe my eyes, the histogram is there, but it isn't changing.

Yep, I thought the same thing at first till I noticed nothing was changing as I moved it around.

Kraut69
08-11-2011, 07:34 PM
A balance control over sound channels1 and 2, so when you are recording one mic to both channels, you can record one channel lower than the other to give you options in editing if you didn't have the inputs adjusted just right for varying conditions. The EX1 has this.

Kraut69
08-12-2011, 08:10 AM
Put the complete operating manual so it can viewed on the camera. Magic Lantern does this with their DSLR manual. Amazing what some people can do!!!!!!!!!!!

Kraut69
08-12-2011, 12:09 PM
Have the option that the STATUS CHECK screen shows only the camera LCD, not on an external LCD, for one thing that would allow viewing the STATUS CHECK audio meters full time if desired, or any other function while you continue to record viewing the external LCD.

morgan_moore
08-12-2011, 12:43 PM
Have the option that the STATUS CHECK screen shows only the camera LCD, not on an external LCD, for one thing that would allow viewing the STATUS CHECK audio meters full time if desired, or any other function while you continue to record viewing the external LCD.

indeed

Chris Johnston
08-12-2011, 02:53 PM
A balance control over sound channels1 and 2, so when you are recording one mic to both channels, you can record one channel lower than the other to give you options in editing if you didn't have the inputs adjusted just right for varying conditions. The EX1 has this.

This isn't possible? I don't own the cam yet but it looks like the audio control buttons would allow this.
i.e. If you have both sides set to mic(+48) , both sides set to input #1, and both sides set to manual, Don't both the channel 1 and 2 have independant volume control? (or does the #1 vol control dial control vol for both channels?)

Kraut69
08-13-2011, 06:47 AM
Videohog,I bet you are right, my camera isn't accessible to check that out. I must have had a stroke yesterday before posting that!

Rick Burnett
08-15-2011, 08:43 PM
This isn't possible? I don't own the cam yet but it looks like the audio control buttons would allow this.
i.e. If you have both sides set to mic(+48) , both sides set to input #1, and both sides set to manual, Don't both the channel 1 and 2 have independant volume control? (or does the #1 vol control dial control vol for both channels?)

I *just* used this yesterday and you have full independent control of both channels. In addition, there are even more controls in the menus for trim. This works as expected and I am *very* impressed with the recording freedom. Both gains are independent.

Chris Johnston
08-16-2011, 11:50 AM
I *just* used this yesterday and you have full independent control of both channels. In addition, there are even more controls in the menus for trim. This works as expected and I am *very* impressed with the recording freedom. Both gains are independent.

yea, that comment seemed a little strange.... this seems like it would be a common usage. (at least, I do frequently)

jaw
08-19-2011, 01:46 PM
I second the idea that we have to be able to rename our picture profiles. Sheesh, pp3 was what again???
And a way to have more increments in gain.
Also
* Add a way to mark or flag a clip
* Add a way to ramp or dampen the autofocus of the kit lens. if you have to use it, it works pretty well when tracking, but sometimes it just jumps way too fast.
* Make the kit lens focus ring actually work (OK, I know, it is a kit lens, but that damn ring and its velocity sensitivity...)
* Put the dang screen/viewfinder on the left side!

All that said, the top and bottom mounting holes are awesome! The battery life is awesome! The low light performance is awesome! etc, etc...

Kraut69
08-19-2011, 03:12 PM
If it hasn't been mentioned before: In the delete clip menu, there is no identification/name/number of the clip you are selecting to delete--only a visual of the first frame--if you are using a slate, every clip looks the same in the thumbnail (at least when you pull up visual index prior to going into the delete clip menu, you are given a minimum ID of date and time (which can be the same on two clips if you do two clips within the same minute). Looks like they must have been in a hurry to ship product to let something like this out the door.

Postmaster
08-19-2011, 03:45 PM
* Put the dang screen/viewfinder on the left side!

.

LOL I wonder if that would be possible via firmware :happy:

And yeah, awesome.

But would be even more awesome with 24 and 60 fps in European models and 10 bit over HDMI.

Frank

Rick Burnett
08-21-2011, 08:33 PM
Let me add a few more things:

1) Decrease the latency from what the camera sees to what the LCD is showing. It's A LOT more than I've seen on other cameras.

2) Allow locking the auto gain. I like the autogain feature for quick shooting, but I'd like to lock in and not let it change during a take.

3) A button to take a snapshot from one of the preset buttons would be nice. Sometimes I just want to take a snapshot then show the person who was having the snapshot taken of them, instead of having to roll video, then show them.

legrevedotcom
08-21-2011, 11:37 PM
Let me add a few more things:

1) Decrease the latency from what the camera sees to what the LCD is showing. It's A LOT more than I've seen on other cameras.

2) Allow locking the auto gain. I like the autogain feature for quick shooting, but I'd like to lock in and not let it change during a take.

3) A button to take a snapshot from one of the preset buttons would be nice. Sometimes I just want to take a snapshot then show the person who was having the snapshot taken of them, instead of having to roll video, then show them.

yeah that lag is terrible... I was doing my first music video with it 2 weeks ago and even the "client" themselves noted this as one was performing and the other was monitoring with us. Wasn't hard to brush it away with a small comment, but anyways... would be nice to get rid of it.

Kraut69
08-22-2011, 07:07 PM
When you push the slide switch to go from full auto to manual mode, every one of the camera settings (iris, gain, shutter) instantly changes to some other value. I don't understand why it would not be more useful for the camera to retain the settings it had at full auto, and then allow the operator to proceed from there. There is some value to not having all the value change instantly, isn't there??????

Rick Burnett
08-23-2011, 05:44 AM
yeah that lag is terrible... I was doing my first music video with it 2 weeks ago and even the "client" themselves noted this as one was performing and the other was monitoring with us. Wasn't hard to brush it away with a small comment, but anyways... would be nice to get rid of it.

So I just powered on my camera and tested the lag again and this time it was not there. It seemed to be very close. Also, it's really only in 24p, at 60p I don't see it. Yet, this weekend, it was DEFINITELY off. I wonder what is causing this inconsistency. I tried starting and stopping recording. I tried switching in and out of S & Q mode, and the smooth rec function. Turned auto on and off, hooked up an HDMI display, etc and all the same.

The difference is, last time I was shooting all day. The camera was on and off randomly, but I am not sure if this is something that gets worse as the camera sits on. What I will try this weekend is leaving the camera on for an hour and do a drop test at 0h and 1h of the lcd and something falling in front of it. Maybe there is a bug.

robmneilson
08-23-2011, 06:22 AM
Thats very strange, I haven't had any lag with my FS100 that was noticeable while shooting....though it's only been out on two shoots since i got it.

Rick Burnett
08-23-2011, 06:52 AM
Well between all of us, maybe we can figure out why it happens.

Kraut69
08-23-2011, 10:25 AM
Getting back to a better way to adjust gain, just expanding on Rick's comment: do an assign button to enable use of the shutter thumbwheel to continously change the gain setting (and no jumps in the picture when the gain setting changes while recording). Gain should be handled like the iris setting.

Rick Burnett
08-23-2011, 10:34 AM
Getting back to a better way to adjust gain, just expanding on Rick's comment: do an assign button to enable use of the shutter thumbwheel to continously change the gain setting (and no jumps in the picture when the gain setting changes while recording). Gain should be handled like the iris setting.

Yeah, that would be awesome really.

TimurCivan
08-23-2011, 11:01 AM
You know.... it would be cool if it were infinitely adjustable..... like and audio preamp......

that would be cool actually..... 3.17dB gain... ya know?

Rick Burnett
08-23-2011, 11:04 AM
You know.... it would be cool if it were infinitely adjustable..... like and audio preamp......

that would be cool actually..... 3.17dB gain... ya know?

That would be. When using the autogain just to play with it, I really liked what it was doing. I just wish I could drive it.

I also REALLY WANT negative gain as well.

robmneilson
08-23-2011, 11:15 AM
Negative gain would be great, I had to go into overkill mode with the ND/POL combo this weekend while shooting a simple setup. Would have been great to shoot at 100 ISO and just deal with a polarizer.

Kraut69
08-23-2011, 12:05 PM
US owners have a stake in getting an FS100 that is both PAL and NTSC compatible. I'm over in France right now, and it would be nice to view my work right now on the hotel's LCD/HDMI TV instead of waiting to get back home.

Postmaster
08-23-2011, 01:14 PM
I also REALLY WANT negative gain as well.

I really donīt get the concept of negative gain. How would that work?

I understand that:
A sensor has a given sensitivity right?
If you crank up the gain you actually amplify the signal digital or electronically - right?
But if a sensor element is over-saturated with photons, there is nothing you can do - except the same thing one would do in post, lower the highlights, which leads to a gray blob instead of a superwhite blob.
I guess unless the zero db setting is already a boosted signal, how could you lower the sensitivity below the native sensitivity?

any one knows?

Frank

Rick Burnett
08-23-2011, 01:45 PM
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/no_pain_no_gain/

A good article explaining it. I've used negative gain on other cameras and I am okay with the trade-off on using it.

Richard Allen Crook
08-23-2011, 05:50 PM
One thing I noticed is a weird way it handles motion in 24fps mode. Very stuttery for some reason. I would imagine 48 shutter would be smooth like butter, but it's strange. I'll have to play with the shutter settings or something. Actually I recall reading about this either on dvxuser or another forum, and I seem to remember someone saying that a different shutter speed is preferable by them over 48. Anyone see this or know of any way to fix it?

Postmaster
08-24-2011, 12:46 AM
http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/aadams/story/no_pain_no_gain/

A good article explaining it. I've used negative gain on other cameras and I am okay with the trade-off on using it.



After reading that article, IMHO there is even less use for negative gain on the FS100, since itīs virtually noise free already.
If you want it less sensitive, you have a fader ND already.

Frank

Kraut69
08-26-2011, 10:11 PM
Need the ability to turn off the LCD monitor during long shots to save power, either with an option that turns it off after selectable delay times, or else turns it off with the remote control, and back on with the remote control (in either case so you don't have to touch the camera).

Rick Burnett
08-27-2011, 04:08 AM
That's actually a cool idea. I would close it, but sometimes I need access to the gain dials. Of course, they need to fix the problem that the histogram stops working when you shut the LCD down. Also, I wish they'd add a waveform in addition to the histogram.

Rick Burnett
08-27-2011, 04:10 AM
After reading that article, IMHO there is even less use for negative gain on the FS100, since itīs virtually noise free already.
If you want it less sensitive, you have a fader ND already.

Frank

What I don't understand is I like the negative gain on my 7D. I've not used it for noise reasons but because it was too bright. Looking at the results it looks great, so I am really not sure what is going on there. With reading this article, it would seem that I wouldn't prevent clipping, yet, this is in fact what was happening. Maybe it was just not crushing the top end as much (hilights) and making it more linear. I might have to test this.

Kraut69
08-28-2011, 04:27 AM
Boot up takes too long when you are in a situation of recording clips on the spur of the moment, at infrequent intervals, how about an assign button that puts the camera in a power saving stand by mode, and turns it back on a little quicker?

Rick Burnett
08-28-2011, 05:21 PM
I usually just leave it on. The battery life is so amazing, I never feel like I need to shut it off! :)

Kraut69
08-28-2011, 07:56 PM
Yep, I had just about resigned myself to just leaving it on all day and forget about it.

TimurCivan
08-28-2011, 10:49 PM
There is negative gain on a 7D?

Jordan Scott Price
08-28-2011, 11:15 PM
There is negative gain on a 7D?

I was wondering about this, too...

jetswing
08-28-2011, 11:20 PM
I don't think 7D goes below ISO 100 but 5D2 does go down to ISO 50.

Rick Burnett
08-29-2011, 06:32 AM
There is negative gain on a 7D?

You know, that is a really good question as to what negative gain actually means. I've been searching to try and understand what exactly Canon is doing with the 7D (and other cameras). The actual CMOS sensor is going to have a base sensitivity and I find it VERY hard to believe that the base sensitivity of the sensor is ISO100. Yet, the camera goes that low.

There are two different location you can add gain, in the digital domain and in the analog domain before the A/D converter. There are a bunch of people who believe every other ISO value on the 7D is an analog gain, whereas the inbetween numbers are digital gain. so ISO100 and ISO200 would be analog, and ISO125 would be digital pulled from either the 100 or 200. I really don't know what they are doing.

But that said, most cameras of this age have an ISO of about ISO320 or ISO400.

I mean, maybe this isn't true. Maybe the base ISO is 100 and the 7D and it's siblings are just THAT clean and we aren't used to that. If that is the case, then my negative gain desire is all off.

Doesn't the AF100 have negative gain as well? While I had mine, I seem to remember the base ISO being around 400 yet it had lower settings as well. I used them and didn't have any issue with them. I'd like to see that same functionality in the FS100. Maybe it isn't actually negative gain, but whatever it was, I used it and didn't see any negative impact. I am sure the DR must be smaller in those settings, but nothing ever glaring in the video I shot.

JardaBar
08-30-2011, 12:02 AM
I don't like electronic control of focus ring on kit lens. It's not possible to make focus change from one point to another by selected speed. :(

JardaBar
08-30-2011, 12:27 AM
Another wish ... preferable autofocus point for kit lens (3 points enough, left, center, right). :)

Kraut69
09-03-2011, 03:15 PM
Get rid of the nagging notice that pops up while you are shooting saying "AREA HAS BEEN ADJUSTED" which apparently happens when you have made a significant change in geography since the last recording. Who cares that this has been adjusted, and certainly no one needs the distraction of such a notice in the middle of a shot.

jay_switzerland
09-22-2011, 01:47 AM
Getting HDMI, Component and Composite out working simultaneously!

Postmaster
09-22-2011, 01:53 AM
Any news, when the update comes?
Bloom says before x-mas, but no confirmation yet.

Frank

finaleditor
09-27-2011, 02:43 PM
I Have to chance my shutter speed to 1/100 for some light issues at europe. I can chance to 1/50 but fs-100 don't have 1/50. It will be so helpful for overseas shooting if they can add 1/50 shutter speed.

TimurCivan
09-27-2011, 05:00 PM
You know, that is a really good question as to what negative gain actually means. I've been searching to try and understand what exactly Canon is doing with the 7D (and other cameras). The actual CMOS sensor is going to have a base sensitivity and I find it VERY hard to believe that the base sensitivity of the sensor is ISO100. Yet, the camera goes that low.

There are two different location you can add gain, in the digital domain and in the analog domain before the A/D converter. There are a bunch of people who believe every other ISO value on the 7D is an analog gain, whereas the inbetween numbers are digital gain. so ISO100 and ISO200 would be analog, and ISO125 would be digital pulled from either the 100 or 200. I really don't know what they are doing.

But that said, most cameras of this age have an ISO of about ISO320 or ISO400.

I mean, maybe this isn't true. Maybe the base ISO is 100 and the 7D and it's siblings are just THAT clean and we aren't used to that. If that is the case, then my negative gain desire is all off.

Doesn't the AF100 have negative gain as well? While I had mine, I seem to remember the base ISO being around 400 yet it had lower settings as well. I used them and didn't have any issue with them. I'd like to see that same functionality in the FS100. Maybe it isn't actually negative gain, but whatever it was, I used it and didn't see any negative impact. I am sure the DR must be smaller in those settings, but nothing ever glaring in the video I shot.

I'm about 99% certain ISO160 is the base. Mainly because most pro photogs work with 100-200 speed film. Its low grain, and reasonably fast. (For strobes)

Rick Burnett
09-27-2011, 07:01 PM
What about the AF100? I've read a base sensitivity of ISO400 yet it goes lower as well in the menus, what is actually happening to the sensor? Inquiring minds want to know! :)

LiamR
10-09-2011, 06:51 AM
Want to be able to name my picture profiles somehow! not sure how it could be done, but it would be good, also, I don't know if this is already possible, but it really annoys me that I can't do it! I want to use the scroll wheel to be able to scroll through the gain just like you can with the shutterspeed, am I missing something here, because I always go into gain set and have to change it that way...?

justanormalguy
10-09-2011, 01:22 PM
Would really like to have filenames continue to count up sequentially after formatting. Too many folders with the same filename/#. Or am I missing something and this is already possible?

Searcher
10-09-2011, 06:16 PM
Want to be able to name my picture profiles somehow! not sure how it could be done, but it would be good, also, I don't know if this is already possible, but it really annoys me that I can't do it! I want to use the scroll wheel to be able to scroll through the gain just like you can with the shutterspeed, am I missing something here, because I always go into gain set and have to change it that way...?

Yes the scroll wheel for the gain would be nice. No you are not missing anything- that's the way it has to be done unfortunately.

MattDavis
10-10-2011, 01:03 AM
Would really like to have filenames continue to count up sequentially after formatting. Too many folders with the same filename/#. Or am I missing something and this is already possible?

The problem lies in the AVCHD format, not just the FS100. Basically, AVCHD is built around replicating the file structure of a BluRay disk, so you could pull a card/disk out of a camera and play it (in theory) on a BluRay player via USB or SDHC slot. Just like one used to do with VHS Camcorders. Whoopee. That means no unique names, and sequential numbers starting from 1 each time.

That, of course, sucks rocks through straws if you wish to archive the entire disk/card structure - as one would want to do, to preserve metadata that's currently ignored by many ingest systems. The only other workaround is to ensure unique names of your transcoded or wrapped versions and treat these as camera originals for archiving. But bye-bye to your GPS and camera data.

Come back SxS, all is forgiven!

FINI FEATURES
10-10-2011, 02:03 AM
what about play back 50p/60p shots in half the speed? is that possible in-camera?

MattDavis
10-10-2011, 02:04 AM
It's called S&Q mode at 1080p24/25/30 frame rates. Dab the button, scroll up to 50/60fps, shoot away. Plays back as slomo.

FINI FEATURES
10-10-2011, 02:29 AM
It's called S&Q mode at 1080p24/25/30 frame rates. Dab the button, scroll up to 50/60fps, shoot away. Plays back as slomo.

in full resolution? what about a ninja attached?

MattDavis
10-10-2011, 02:35 AM
Recording in-camera, in full resolution, yes.

If you wanted to shoot with a Ninja, I'm afraid you're SOL unless you want to deinterlace 50i/60i and remap the speed, and that loses half your vertical resolution. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but whilst Convergent Design's NanoFlash does fancy stuff like recording true 24p by doing in-recorder pull-down conversion, and probably has a better 'EDID' with the FS100 that allows true 25p too, it's limited to 24/25/29.97 too.

AFAIK (or remember for that matter), the 1080p50 output mode on the FS100 relies on HDMI 1.4, and most recorders are (erm... I think) 1.3.

FINI FEATURES
10-10-2011, 04:49 PM
thanks matt, you helped me a lot!!! in s&q mode (half the speed) the camera output the same hdmi-stream as in normal 60p mode? is recording limited (maybe 12sec)?

justanormalguy
10-10-2011, 07:39 PM
The problem lies in the AVCHD format, not just the FS100. Basically, AVCHD is built around replicating the file structure of a BluRay disk, so you could pull a card/disk out of a camera and play it (in theory) on a BluRay player via USB or SDHC slot. Just like one used to do with VHS Camcorders. Whoopee. That means no unique names, and sequential numbers starting from 1 each time.

That, of course, sucks rocks through straws if you wish to archive the entire disk/card structure - as one would want to do, to preserve metadata that's currently ignored by many ingest systems. The only other workaround is to ensure unique names of your transcoded or wrapped versions and treat these as camera originals for archiving. But bye-bye to your GPS and camera data.

Come back SxS, all is forgiven!

Thanks Matt!. That jives with everything I've read. Not that theres much to read on the matter. I can't imagine too many FS100 shooters are popping their SD cards into blu-ray players. I wouldn't mind if Sony gave the option to break the standard to give us unique filenames on the camera.

Other than the ND issue, this is the only thing I miss about shooting with the HVX over the FS100. The filenames didn't make sense but at least they were unique.

LiamR
10-23-2011, 04:49 AM
Negative gain, want to be able to go lower than 500...

And I don't care for the S&Q, in the work I do it is very inconvenient, I just want to be able to record 50/60p and playback at half speed...

Postmaster
10-23-2011, 06:59 AM
Negative gain, want to be able to go lower than 500...



Why using negative gain can be bad, unless you have an F3.

http://www.xdcam-user.com/2011/07/why-using-negative-gain-can-be-bad-unless-you-have-an-f3/

...just saying

Frank

Kraut69
11-07-2011, 10:23 AM
Rick, I am giving this thread a bump to get it back at the top again. I see there is another thread with a similar title, a little confusing to some maybe.

Anyway, do you know of any Sony plans to issue a new firmware with improvements we are asking for? It would really help solidify their position at a good time, since the new Canon products are still not competing with the FS100.

Thanks.

Rick Burnett
11-07-2011, 10:57 AM
I've heard nothing really. And it is funny that you ask, because just this morning I did a search on the web and found TONS of wishlists on many sites with many of the same requests as well. Sadly, I don't have any Sony contacts. I am going to try and get in touch with someone over the next week to see if there is any plan, if I can get through to someone. It makes me miss the communication I had with Panasonic. Not that anything changed in the AF100, but at least I knew what the outlook was.

PabloOzzy
11-07-2011, 05:11 PM
I thought Sony had officially promised a firmware upgrade that gave the PAL FS100 24/60p via NTSC selector? Has this not come out yet?

LiamR
11-07-2011, 07:45 PM
Im fairly sure that Phillip Bloom said it would be 'around' christmas time...

Kraut69
11-18-2011, 04:26 PM
Time to bump this thread back to the top. I don't remember anyone mentioning the dual MENU buttons. Two buttons that do the same thing, what is the need for that? We need firmware update that makes one of them, probably the one on the side, more useful, doing something else that can provide added value.

Edit:

A there are two DISPLAY buttons, too.

Kraut69
11-18-2011, 04:34 PM
Firmware upgrades should have features that are selectable to install. The upcoming firmware update has things for European use only, I really don't need any more clutter in the menus than necessary. Probably wont happen of course.

plasticam
11-18-2011, 04:40 PM
[QUOTE=LiamR;2446885]Want to be able to name my picture profiles somehow!

bAM @! +1

Pleeeeeze

Kraut69
12-02-2011, 08:20 PM
Remote lens controls only provide a record start/stop function with the FS100.

Would be nice if another button on the remote lens control could be mapped to turn the expanded focus feature on/off (although in the future we will have more than the 2X choice).

Having to move you hand to push the on-camera button can be distracting. I can see using expanded focus a lot more if it were more convenient to use.

SergeSmArt
12-18-2011, 12:39 AM
OK.. this is some of my
ideas to add to firmware:

1. All MARKERS lines MUST to be
THIN!!

Take a look to this - standart view of LCD on FS-100:



http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_1.jpg

this
looks bad.. all this INFO is too bright and disturb me ..

but if you turn your MARKERS ON ( Gidelines and Center Cross ) .. it will be even worse -->


http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_2.jpg


..and ... ... even WORSE:

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_3.jpg

Whop did it?? Seems like they are blind ... Why all llines so THICK..?? it's almost impossible to see the CONTENT! I feel like I'm behind the prison-bars ...

Even if we turn off "DISPLAY" we still have
stupid green "STBY" mark on the CENTER top of display.. why it's ON the CENTER??


http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_4.jpg

..but
WHY don't we have this "STBY" mark .. or even just a small red mark in the
corner?? -->

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_5.jpg

..and ... why we do not have an option to set SEMI-TRANSPARENT view of any information ->

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_6.jpg

Sony MUST to change it and give us very THIN LINES !! -->

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_7.jpg

...and Aspect Ratio Markers will be better to be in SHADOW TINT + thin lines -->


http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_9.jpg

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Sony_FS100-LCD_Markers_8.jpg

Don't you think this will be MUCH BETTER?? :)



..also, I'd like them to ad this:
------------------------------
2. REDUCE STATTERING when panning or have fast object movement at 24 and 30 fps! ( I
don't know how ....., but even a little improvement will be nice!
----------------------------
3. In COLOR - please REMOVE crazy oversaturated RED !!! I don't understand - why Sony like Red so much?? .. RED is color of "1917 revolution in Russia" ..and I hate it! :kali:

---------------------------
4. Autofocus work fine.. but not ALWAYS !!

Unfortunately, when something with high CONTRAST appear in background, focus JUMP from MAIN object to that stupid spots on background..

The worst, when we shoot person with wide open aperture and nice Bokeh in background ... and all this ruined by stupidity of autofocus
system.. I hope Sony able to find some kind of algorithm when focusing follow the main character ( like "face recognition" )

....or give us a
function which I would name "Autofocus STOP" ....this function can be set to button D ( PUSH AUTO FOCUS )
Now when the main FOCUS (C) in MANUAL position - push D button START AUTOFOCUSING till you hold it .... so let make some kind of REVERSE FUNCITON to the same button - "FREEZE AUTOFOCUS" till you hold it
... when main FOCUS (C) in AUTO position... This will be much more logical when person do NOT moving ..just ..talk, for example... .. as when focusing JUMP from his face to background.... activate auto focusing is USLESS .. but if focus
in AUTO MODE, and I've "GOT THE FACE" I can simply STOP it and KEEP the face of actor in focus.. !This improvement a specially important since we have a chance to get new Sony A-Mount Lens to NEX Camera Mount Adapter for $333
!!

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/images/multiple_images/item_images/IMG_219817.jpg

...
If we get this improvement I will order this adapter, sell my Canon-lenses and
will start to collect perfect Sony Carl Zeiss SAL-lenses!!


-----------------------------------------------

( Sorry for my English.. I never had a chance to learn it in
school )

Kraut69
12-19-2011, 07:13 AM
Having a touch screen and the Sony NEX autofocus lenses, you should be able to touch the point you want the camera to focus on while shooting.

Ulisse
01-01-2012, 03:38 AM
Tha possibility to select db in small steps.
Focus peaking visible in external monitor.
Touch screen focus point selectable.
Menu with big letter switchable, needed in some situation.

Ulisse
01-01-2012, 03:45 AM
SergeSmArt (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/member.php?46569-SergeSmArt), +1.

SergeSmArt
01-03-2012, 03:53 PM
Tha possibility to select db in small steps.
Focus peaking visible in external monitor.
Touch screen focus point selectable.
Menu with big letter switchable, needed in some situation.

Actually we have option to select DB in small steps...-->


Gain db Level

ISO Rating



0 db

500 ISO



+3 db

800 ISO



+6 db

1000 ISO



+9 db

1600 ISO



+12 db

2000 ISO



+15 db

3200 ISO



+18 db

4000 ISO



+21 db

6400 ISO



+24 db

8000 ISO



+27 db

12800 ISO



+30 db

16000 ISO





I don't know if it have to be less .. and ..not only Focus peaking have to be visible in external monitor... I'd like to see there ASPECT RATIO LINES also.. but in Mode, when "DISPLAY" is OFF !! so we will be able to see that lines WITHOUT all crazy information on screen!

also, Ulisse, would you please EDIT your post and REMOVE copy of my post from it?? .. you can leave there ONLY first line of what I say.. don't need the rest - it's just TOO MUCH on forum to have the same bunch of images again :) ... and .. after I talk to someone from Sony, I change it a little - they told me - there no chance to ad additional option to reduse saturation separately for every color.. so I remove it from my post :)

Mestizo Devon
01-05-2012, 04:21 PM
The hurry up button.

It enables the firmware release Jan 2012 instead of June! :Drogar-Shock(DBG):

Rick Burnett
01-11-2012, 11:24 AM
I thought +30dB is ISO20K on the FS100? Are these verified results?

I've actually had Sony call me, and they are trying to get me through to the firmware people. I want to make them aware of this list and talk to them about the firmware in general. I will certainly share my discussion with them here once that happens.

Kraut69
01-11-2012, 11:43 AM
Was concerned by this link from another forum, which implies a March release instead of January and also appears to not include ZEBRA output to an external monitor on the FS-100 (it is mentioned as an improvement for another camera discussed, but not the FS100).

Of course this is not about the US release.

http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2011/11/25/sony-give-hd-warrior-firmware-exclusive-news-fs100-nx70/

(EDIT, that was a recent post on the other forum, so I assumed it was a recent release, but the date on this release is NOV/11)

Rick Burnett
01-11-2012, 12:20 PM
I got a call back from them and am getting ready to talk with someone else. I have to say, everyone I have talked to has been AWESOME.

Mestizo Devon
01-11-2012, 01:09 PM
Rick

Hope to hear good news

SergeSmArt
01-13-2012, 08:10 AM
Having a touch screen and the Sony NEX autofocus lenses, you should be able to touch the point you want the camera to focus on while shooting.

This is exactly what I want to have in new firmware !!! - some kind of algorithm, like "Face Detection with touch screen focus point selectable" ...
I see touch screen focus point select in RED Scarlet, ( but it's SLOW, because it's NOT Phase detection system ) - you can see it at 1:15 to 1:26


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4PL3coQpQs

So..for me..( and I think for others ) - the ONLY reason to spend $372 for LA-EA2 Adapter ( wich " Allows your E-mount camera to enjoy high speed, accurate TTL phase detection auto focus for both still and video capture..." as it' says on B&H site ....

http://static.bhphotovideo.com/images/images150x150/819768.jpg

and thousands dollars on Sony A-mount lenses is ABILITY TO HAVE a GOOD CONTROL OVER THE FOCUS !!...
If Sony did this autofocus improvement - FS-100 will absolutely UNIC Super-35 camera!!! ... NO any other cameras have THE SPACE to place such adapter between the lens and body!
:love4: I was planing to get some A-mount Carl Zeiss lenses.. but now I decide to WAIT this new firmware!!

...and if we get this autofocus improvement I will KEEP FS-100, even when I will be "able to by RED EPIC or F65" :Drogar-Happy(DBG): I'm sure - even some owners of F3 will get FS-100 as second camera in case to use it in situation when perfect autofocusing is IMPORTANT...
.. if "not" - I will lookiing to Canon C-300 direction... :smiley_do

Rick Burnett
01-13-2012, 04:55 PM
Well if you want autofocus, you are going to get ZERO autofocus capabilities on the C300. It is fully 100% manual. Hopefully you can at least adjust the focus manually through the remote port for when you are on a crane and such.

I wanted to let everyone know that Sony has in fact seen our wish lists and posts here. All our feedback has been sent to the engineering team in Japan for review. I wanted to thank everyone for their contributions. Now, I am sure you know this doesn't mean we are going to get everything that is being asked, because time, processing power, memory, and actual hardware limitations will dictate a lot of what can happen. That said, I have to say, I've been VERY impressed with the feedback from Sony. They've also been very thankful for the feedback.

I'll continue to share what I hear from them.

BrianMurphy
01-13-2012, 06:49 PM
Any Idea when we might see the firmware released?

Rick Burnett
01-13-2012, 08:04 PM
No word on that yet. Probably will not hear anything back from them till next week.

alarch
01-14-2012, 02:12 AM
Hello,

Its probably too late for Sony to see :) but I use a lot the FS100 and here are in order of importance (to me) what I think would be cool in the new firmware (regardless of technical possibilities)

24, 30, 60 frame rate for European FS100
10 Bit HDMI out (would be a killer if Sony did that)
Better compression rate when recorded on SD card
Go lower than 0DB (or some kind of trick because its all ready bad enough not to have integrated ND filters . Its great to shoot in low light but we also need to shoot easily in bright daylight)
Slower S&Q mode
Easier DB/Iso adjustment while shooting
Real 1080P cropping sensor option while recording (like on the D4)
Editing names for profile
locking the auto gain
DB - > ISO
Nothing to do with firmware but I would advise a better communication from Sony on this camera. Basically here in France nobody knows it exist.
I have a renting website and in 8 month I have not rented it once! In france in the "NAB" shows equivalent the camera is closer to be hidden than showed.
(for exemple the Pana AF100 and other cameras are showed near the entrance in a big set and you can film a girl playing golf as for the Sony the stand was on another floor at the back like a stupid VIP space with just one camera and a guy claiming that the new firmware was online since october. Guess which of the 2 cameras production company buy the most the France? yes the one with the girl playing golf : ) I've not come across one company who actually owns the FS100)

You might say its not very important for the image quality and I don't usually care much about communication but as a DP I have often difficulties to convince production companies or director to work with it on low budget work... thats very annoying.

SergeSmArt
01-14-2012, 02:58 AM
Well if you want autofocus, you are going to get ZERO autofocus capabilities on the C300. It is fully 100% manual. Hopefully you can at least adjust the focus manually through the remote port for when you are on a crane and such.

Rick! I just want to explain to Sony HOW IMPORTANT to improve autofocus algorithm in FS-100, if they want us to buy LA-EA2 Adapter and A-maunt lenses !!! :)
To have remote manual focus with S-300, or any other camera is not a big deal .. at list I have this Jag Follow Focus :


46240

... so, only have to get Jag Remote Unit, or use remote FF from other company.. but I'd like to have Sony "accurate TTL phase detection auto focus" !!! .. and I talk to them about it :) ...

SergeSmArt
01-14-2012, 03:03 AM
any idea when we might see the firmware released?


march 2012 :)

SergeSmArt
01-14-2012, 03:07 AM
Hello,
Its probably too late for Sony to see :) ....

NEWS from Japan (http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/category/news-from-japan/):
NEX-FS100 Improvements due March 2012

1. 60(59.94)Hz /50Hz (NTSC/PAL) switchable feature. FS100E can have the 60p(59.94p), 60i (59.94i),30p(29.97p) and 24p(23.98p) recording modes
2. Camera Profile (camera setting saved in a memory card) It allows users to recall the previous camera settings easily. It also helps multi-camera shooting preparation.
3. Expanded Focus (x4/x8, selectable focus area) It allows user to select the magnification size and area to be expanded.
4. ISO sensitivity display. For users who are familiar with traditional filming term, it will be possible to switch between ISO and Gain (dB) display.
5. Focus feet, Shutter angle display. For users who are familiar with traditional filming term, it will be possible to switch between feet and meter for focus position display when an E-mount lens is used. Also, switchable between second and degree for shutter speed display.
6. Variation added for “Aspect markers”
7. Compatibility with new A-mount to E-mount adaptor [LA-EA2] with Translucent Mirror Technology Auto Focus operation is available with Sony A-mount alpha lens
------------------------------
source : http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2011/11/25/sony-give-hd-warrior-firmware-exclusive-news-fs100-nx70/ :)

Rick Burnett
01-14-2012, 07:41 AM
Well I did pass on this thread as well as a summary. I'm sure they'll read through it. I covered most things that I saw. I am sure I missed a few things as well. If they incorporated a few more of the changes we've asked for, it will be great!

stancemedia
01-14-2012, 12:03 PM
Did they remove Zebra's and other information currently not output via HDMI?

That was one of the baggiest features for me on this release...Any knowledge Rick?

jetswing
01-14-2012, 12:38 PM
Did they remove Zebra's and other information currently not output via HDMI?

That was one of the baggiest features for me on this release...Any knowledge Rick?

That is not the complete list. See Sony's site for complete list:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-nxcamsite/resource.downloads.bbsccms-assets-micro-nxcam-downloads-nexfs100uandnexfs100ukfirmwareupgrade.shtml

stancemedia
01-14-2012, 01:10 PM
That is not the complete list. See Sony's site for complete list:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-nxcamsite/resource.downloads.bbsccms-assets-micro-nxcam-downloads-nexfs100uandnexfs100ukfirmwareupgrade.shtml

Thanks. Still seems like it's on there. I remember reading
earlier it was taken off on one of the list/Sony's Sites.
Maybe it was a mistake or something?

On another note it's quite nice they are reading the
feedback and potentially putting it to good use.

Rick Burnett
01-14-2012, 02:32 PM
I have no knowledge yet of anything more than the press release information.

SergeSmArt
01-14-2012, 10:34 PM
Did they remove Zebra's and other information currently not output via HDMI?

That was one of the baggiest features for me on this release...Any knowledge Rick?

Actually I never use Zebra ... prefer just to set 80% "Zebra point" in histogram, and it is in output.. I can see it on monitors -->

http://www.sergecinema.com/temp/Zebra_Point.jpg

and I always trying to keep my histogram do NOT go over it...

What is important to see on external monitors is all that NEW Aspect Ratios, but not in just regular Mode, but when "display" is OFF !! The GUIDES HAVE TO BE there, even NOTHING else is not !!
When I talk about it with Sony guy, I was trying to explain him my simple opinion, based on expirience: as an Artist, I'd like to see LESS info on display, when I start shooting, so I prefer turn display OFF, but my ASPECT RATIO GUIDES, a specially, when I shoot in 2.35:1 format MUST TO BE AVAILABLE ANYTIME .. don't you think so??

stancemedia
01-14-2012, 10:52 PM
I failed to double check what I had posted and hastily mentioned just Zebra's
and "Other" information. My most important item would be Peaking.

I just shot a documentary where I purchased and used a Zacuto Top Handle
and naturally it blocks the screen from going past about 90 degrees.
I was shooting most of the footage on a skateboard with my Zacuto
EVF as my monitor. It has it's own version of peaking which is just
over sharpening but it really wasn't a good option for the task.

The function to send out peaking over HDMI is what I really wanted
for this task.

Sorry I didn't clarify the other 'Other' part.

Also to get over this issue I ordered and used the Rokinon 8mm
for the project. For the money...it's a great lens. Everything is
in focus...always haha. So with the lens and just tilting my EVF
down and using it as a small lightweight monitor the shoot was perfect.

SergeSmArt
01-16-2012, 02:29 AM
My most important item would be Peaking.


The function to send out peaking over HDMI is what I really wanted
for this task.


Don't know what others think about it, but on my FS-100 I found that Peaking is NOT AS GOOD AS IT HAVE TO BE - on my new Lilliput -7 external monitor I see objects STILL NOT IN FOCUS, even on FS-100 LCD peaking tell as it is there .. a specaly on wide shots... so, I use this monitor to precise focusing, instead it Peaking option..

...and I'd like to see other users opinion about it... maybe it's just MY camera problem?

MattDavis
01-16-2012, 03:36 AM
I'd like to see other users opinion about it... maybe it's just MY camera problem?

I've noticed a couple of things since augmenting my FS100 with a Zacuto EVF: firstly, the FS100 peaking doesn't pick up in 'low-lights' (EVF does). Second, if I may be somewhat bitchy, the Peaking 'Lo/Med/Hi' settings could be, IMHO, better labelled 'Sharp/Soft/Blurry' as to what to highlight. Okay, I'm hamming it up on the last point, but I was never a fan of these forms of Focus Aid.

Anyone else prefer the old-fashioned analogue style peaking? Looks like an overcooked 'Detail' enhancement. When I first tried the Z-EVF, it was with a 5Dmk2 which drops down the res whilst recording and really emphasises the 'ringing' effect. Of course, the FS100 doesn't do that, and so the peaking is quite subtle. Dialling it up does the same as the FS100 peaking control - showing fuzzier areas as 'sharp'.

I guess we're all looking forward to the ability to punch in closer, and to move that area around the screen 'a la DSLR' with the new firmware - which will be a boon to all users of f1.2 lenses for interviews.

LiamR
01-16-2012, 01:00 PM
I was using the peaking at 27db with the on-board LCD, didn't have anything out of focus, was shooting at f4.

Postmaster
01-16-2012, 01:07 PM
Thatīs the main reason I got the TVLogic monitor over the DP6 - the peaking is superb and even finetuneable, according to your color, light or glass situation.

Frank

SergeSmArt
01-26-2012, 09:01 AM
Having a touch screen and the Sony NEX autofocus lenses, you should be able to touch the point you want the camera to focus on while shooting.

... You give me a new idea :) -->

What about algorithm wich make possible to PROGRAMM some kind of "Racking Focus" ??

For example: with open "RACKING-FOCUS" SETUP we touch FISRT point you want the camera to focus .. than touch SECOND point you want the camera to focus .. and set the SPEED for changing focus from first to second point ...

Seems crazy.. I know.. :shocked: but I can imagine how to use it when shooting narratives - on rehearsal we can set it to match actors movement, and then, when we start to shoot - have it SMOTH and PRECISE ... :)

Jean-Philippe
01-26-2012, 09:30 AM
Canon did it in 2008 on the XLH1 (with phisical buttons on the lens) so it's definitly possible.

Kraut69
01-26-2012, 01:31 PM
... You give me a new idea :) -->

What about algorithm wich make possible to PROGRAMM some kind of "Racking Focus" ??

For example: with open "RACKING-FOCUS" SETUP we touch FISRT point you want the camera to focus .. than touch SECOND point you want the camera to focus .. and set the SPEED for changing focus from first to second point ...

Seems crazy.. I know.. :shocked: but I can imagine how to use it when shooting narratives - on rehearsal we can set it to match actors movement, and then, when we start to shoot - have it SMOTH and PRECISE ... :)


Steve Jobs would pounce on that. That's why Apple set record sales last quarter. Too many companies seem to just stare into the headlights.

Postmaster
01-26-2012, 01:36 PM
... You give me a new idea :) -->

What about algorithm wich make possible to PROGRAMM some kind of "Racking Focus" ??

For example: with open "RACKING-FOCUS" SETUP we touch FISRT point you want the camera to focus .. than touch SECOND point you want the camera to focus .. and set the SPEED for changing focus from first to second point ...

Seems crazy.. I know.. :shocked: but I can imagine how to use it when shooting narratives - on rehearsal we can set it to match actors movement, and then, when we start to shoot - have it SMOTH and PRECISE ... :)

The Epic does that.

Rick Burnett
01-26-2012, 02:00 PM
Yep, Red already has this technology, they discussed it quite a bit last year.

Mestizo Devon
01-26-2012, 03:04 PM
I'm ready for the firmware..
OK I had to tell someone......

stancemedia
01-26-2012, 04:21 PM
I'm excited about the Firmware patch and not at the same time.
Brings along a couple decisions.

Anyone looking to pair some A Mount lenses with an LA-EA2?
Played with the 16-50 the other day when I was in NYC and
it's very much a DSLR lens...feels very plasticky and the
focus ring wasn't super desirable.

That paired with it being restricted to F/3.5 because
of the adapter makes me sad. Wonder is it worth
the hassle and drawbacks?

Still it wouldn't be hard to convince me to get a A77
for some stills action and have the lenses work double
duty for the FS100.

Anyone got some thoughts on this matter?

I would be looking at these lenses:
Sony 16-50mm F/2.8
Tamron 70-200mm F/2.8 (Should have never sold my Canon 70-200 F/2.8...)

Chris Johnston
01-26-2012, 04:29 PM
I have the 1650 and la ea2.

I believe the part about being restricted to 3.5 is ONLY if you're using AF. (turn off af and get 2.8 to 22)

Edit I also have the 28-75 sal 2.8

BrianMurphy
01-26-2012, 05:27 PM
Trust me friends, I am so ready for the firmware update. I just got the camera, the LA-EA2, a collection of lenses.Started off the build with fine Berkey components and to finish off the quartet a project around the corner. It would be nice to have it all playing together. Brubeck comes to mind......

SergeSmArt
01-26-2012, 05:48 PM
I'm excited about the Firmware patch and not at the same time.
Brings along a couple decisions.

Anyone looking to pair some A Mount lenses with an LA-EA2?

Played with the 16-50 the other day when I was in NYC and
it's very much a DSLR lens...feels very plasticky and the
focus ring wasn't super desirable.

That paired with it being restricted to F/3.5 because
of the adapter makes me sad. Wonder is it worth
the hassle and drawbacks?




What about 24-70mm f/2.8 Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* , Telephoto 85mm f/1.4 Carl Zeiss Planar T* , 135mm f/1.8 Carl Zeiss Sonnar T*, 16-35mm f/2.8 ZA SSM Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T*, Distagon T* 24mm f/2 SSM ??? they are also "feels very plasticky" ?

..and , if I understand right - with adapter we can use ANY aperture UP TO F3.5 ( like F1.2, F1.4, F1.8, F2, F2,8 ) in autofocusing mode.. in case to give enough light to autofocusing sensor in adapter... right or no ?

I don't know the answers... never use Sony lenses yet... I hope someone are able to tell me about it :)

stancemedia
01-26-2012, 06:52 PM
What about 24-70mm f/2.8 Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T* , Telephoto 85mm f/1.4 Carl Zeiss Planar T* , 135mm f/1.8 Carl Zeiss Sonnar T*, 16-35mm f/2.8 ZA SSM Carl Zeiss Vario-Sonnar T*, Distagon T* 24mm f/2 SSM ??? they are also "feels very plasticky" ?

..and , if I understand right - with adapter we can use ANY aperture UP TO F3.5 ( like F1.2, F1.4, F1.8, F2, F2,8 ) in autofocusing mode.. in case to give enough light to autofocusing sensor in adapter... right or no ?

I don't know the answers... never use Sony lenses yet... I hope someone are able to tell me about it :)

To my knowledge you can only use aperture settings above F/3.5 (Or the lowest setting on the lens down to F/3.5 naturally)
Worth noting that the translucent mirror also cuts down on a minor bit of light. Not a full stop by any means but enough to
mention briefly.

Videohog do you have any potential confirmation on this information regarding the ability
to open up wider if you aren't using AF? This could potentially sway me. After hands
on with the 16-50mm I felt like I was using a Canon lens and not really in a good way.
I really dislike not having hard stops. And the focus ring just felt well limpish? Hard to
really explain. It might be one of those things that well it's a small annoyance
but worth the headache/troubles. In terms of what it offers (I was using it on an
A77) it seemed great. Crisp, contrasty all of the good stuff.

B&H had a FS100 rigged with some A mount SLR lens I used a bit and It had quite
a small focus ring. The image was great I just remember disliking how small the ring was
for focus. It was nub like wish I could remember what lens it was oh well.

Can you speak to any of these items Videohog?
Is it not a big deal, thoughts etc.?

I assume using a follow focus will be just like using a canon lens. I used
them more often in 'On the go' shooting, so no marking disks usually. Wonder
if it's totally annoying to hit focus marks repeatedly..?

Hopefully it's not a bad decision to lock myself into a lens that
only works for one manufacturer...been there was it is annoying
when it's time to switch.

Chris Johnston
01-27-2012, 11:39 AM
@Stancemedia " Videohog do you have any potential confirmation on this information regarding the ability
to open up wider if you aren't using AF?"

I did a quick look at the Sony site but couldn't find the doc. (I know it was in some wierd location on the Sony site, just don't recall where. I'll try to find it tonight.

Also, Shawnlam posted something about the firmware update may also allow adjusting the iris to other than 3.5 with autofocus on. Not sure thats gonna happen based on my (probably flawed) understanding of how the adapter works with AF.

More to come obviously when the actual fireware comes out, but I'm confident enough with whats been said/written and the speed of the autofocus (which is almost toooo fast imo) well.... I bought 2 la ea2s and 2 diff sony a mount lens, so I hope my research is good enough.

Rick Burnett
01-30-2012, 07:04 PM
Just an update on the firmware front. As I've mentioned, I've been in contact with the Sony product manager for the FS100 and we've chatted a few times over email. I compiled a document of almost all of the feature requests and bugs posted in this thread and passed along the thread itself to Sony. This was forwarded to the project planning team in Japan. In addition, the project manager will be visiting the team in Japan as well.

Some of the items in our list will be addressed in the upcoming firmware, some are in the pipeline for the future, and some are just not possible in this model (FS100). Sony also said that while firmware changes themselves (the coding) doesn't take very long, the QA process actually does take a long time. The changes can cause new bugs that reset the QA process.

Not from Sony, but from myself, I can back Sony up on this one. Typically there are quite a few people involved on firmware on complex devices like this and changes to code in different subsystems can require a lot of time to iron out all the changes. It's not like code written for an OS because their are system limitations, that have complex interdependencies that have to be tested vigorously.

Sony also wanted me to share that they sincerely appreciate the effort to compile a request/wish list for the FS100.

They did not mention any sort of more specific date, so I can't help there. I just wanted to update on their communication because I am very impressed with it. Again, when I find out more I will let you all know.

robfilms
01-31-2012, 06:31 AM
rick-

thanks for being the point person on this issue and keeping all of us informed.

be well.

rob
smalltalk productions

Rick Burnett
01-31-2012, 07:58 AM
No problem!

MichaelGrugal
01-31-2012, 09:21 AM
Thank you Rick.

BrianMurphy
02-01-2012, 04:49 AM
Well since you are chatting with them Rick any chance you can as why there is not a temp firmware that would allow at least iris control for the LA-EA2? For anyone like me who has invested in a new camera and a few grand in Zeiss/Sony lenses that can't be used. The option to buy an LA-EA1 which will soon be a paperweight is not very appealing.
Thanks
Brian

Jean-Philippe
02-20-2012, 11:49 AM
I don't know if someone already mentionned this in the thread, but a waveform instead of an histogram would be a very welcomed feature.

Kyle McConaghy
02-20-2012, 12:39 PM
Thanks so much, Rick! Have they given you any indication on what changes not already mentioned in the press release will be implemented?

Tom Wilkinson
02-20-2012, 01:31 PM
+1 on the Waveform monitor function. I use it all the time on my HMC150.

Rick Burnett
02-20-2012, 05:02 PM
I did. The histogram is so low resolution, it's really hard to know what is going on somethings. The waveform on the AF100 is superior, but, it has one mode, always taking up the whole screen.

Would be nice to use histogram or waveform, and, to use them full screen or in the corner.

Postmaster
02-21-2012, 01:42 AM
RGB Parade (while at it) .... yeah, I know ;-)

Frank

paulcurtis
02-21-2012, 02:03 AM
RGB Parade (while at it) .... yeah, I know ;-)

Frank

+1 for that.

I was talking to the people at small HD to see if they'd be able to add separate RGB peaking in to help with colour clipping. It was a possibility, they're nice folks - so perhaps if a few others request the same thing they can see a demand. I wouldn't have thought it would be too difficult to add that in, the false colour peaking isn't far off

cheers
Paul

Kraut69
02-23-2012, 05:03 PM
Well, here we are on February 23, and the first firmware update is now scheduled for March 22. I believe in the beginning I was marking my calendar for a January release.

The firmware update, although welcome, seems stingy in content and slow in release, judging by the uncanny things Magic Lantern firmware updates have done for the Canon DSLR's.

I know there is responsibility to be considered by Sony in making firmware updates, and no responsibility to be considered by Magic Lantern in making their updates. That would influence the timeliness for sure.

But Sony firmware updates have to be influenced by their view of ramifications in the marketplace, and Magic Lantern is just interested in giving everyone what they want. Big difference in that regard between the two parties.

Sony's selling the S-LOG firmware update for the F3 for $3000, and then ending up giving it away for free (I assume to compete better with the Canon C300) gives an insight into Sony's mindset about firmware updates and dollars.

All I want is a lot of firmware updates for the FS-100, and I'm telling Sony if they have to charge for those updates to get the job done, then I will gladly consider paying them for the updates.

BrianMurphy
02-23-2012, 05:56 PM
Well I just bought the camera, based not on what might be in the upcoming firmware but on what I have watched come out of it in the past eight or so months. As a GH1 owner I will agree that the wonder of what hacks can do will never cease to amaze me. However my FS100 like the HMC150 before is my working camera and needs to be VERY reliable and deliver without any hassle on a daily basis. So I appreciate Sony's approach and I also appreciate that they are a business and competition in this range is fierce. So if they choose to comp people with their software to maintain or solidify their market share, good for the folks who save. The FS100 is a $6k camera and soon it will have even more features. This is a good thing and they won't cost a dime. That is an even better thing. Would I pay for more features? Maybe but right now I am happy that the five hundred dollar lens adapter and two thousand dolllar Zeiss lens I have will soon be dancing together. I am happy that I can now shoot for the Europeans with a camera I own rather than rent. Dollar for dollar this is truly an amazing camera.
Sometimes as I read all the posts and that usually only happens when I am not booked or every three years when I buy another camera, I think we all (me included) spend too much time counting pixels,worrying about whistles and bells and not enough time doing what got us into this to begin with...Shooting.
just my 2 cents

paulcurtis
02-24-2012, 01:14 AM
I think i've said before but it would be great if sony would embrace the developer community and allow for custom firmware versions. Of course there would be no support whatsoever from sony and so long as you can flash back to an official release it shouldn't be too hard.

cheers
Paul

Kraut69
02-24-2012, 11:11 AM
Brian,

I agree with your observations.

Sony for sure owes us nothing other than the cam we bought.

But these firmware issues are more than about pixel peeping and bells and whistles. Gotta have the zebra output on the external monitor when using the FS as a shoulder cam for sure.

As for the time discussing these issues on the forums, as opposed to being out there shooting, I have found that a little bit of shooting generates hours of editing at the computer. Popping into these forums provides welcome relief during the monotony of editing.

Galen