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View Full Version : Is the camera viable for weddings/run and gun?



Phil1076
07-28-2011, 07:18 AM
I've been reading up on this new cam and the low light sensitivity has really sparked my interest. Is this camera a viable solution for weddings? Are there any lenses out there for this cam which have full time auto focus?

Thanks

AndyInBuffalo
07-28-2011, 08:03 AM
The lenses that will give you auto focus are the e-mount lenses. Any other lens with an adapter will limit your auto functions. The camera is good in low light, but you may want to get a lens that is faster than the e-mount lenses currently offered. If you get a faster (wider aperture) lens and use the Sony adapter, you'll have manual iris control with the wheel on the camera, but you won't be able to use it live, because the aperture will flicker and you'll get a loud clicking noise while adjusting the iris. There are adapters out there that have their own manual aperture control ring, but I haven't checked their quality yet, or how quiet they are and whether they will cause vignetting. If you're using good lighting, the e-mount lenses may be good, though be aware that the zooms do not offer constant aperture as far as I know.

matteo1
07-28-2011, 09:16 AM
The aperture flash / click is nasty, but using the Heliopan Variable ND fader solves both of these issues. As sensitive as the camera is I was using the fader on a f1.4 lens indoors with available light , and it made everything smooth and quiet.

AndyInBuffalo
07-28-2011, 09:38 AM
So Matteo, did you keep the lens wide open at 1.4 and adjust with the ND, then ? What kind of lens are you using, btw. and are you happy with it ? I'm using the Tamron 28-75. It seems sharp, but there is a strange "image shift" when I rack focus somtimes.

PS. What kind of adapter are you using ?

Phil1076
07-28-2011, 10:14 AM
I just stepped out of the office to go play with this camera at the local dealer...it looked impressive and I was relieved to see autofocus on the kit lens. I wonder if the sensor size and overall low light sensitivity of the camera will make up for the slowness of the lense....after thinking about it, though, I think the lack of ND filters may be a deal breaker.

I've searched for variable ND filters but do you guys have an extra model number or link to B&H? Am I correct in believing that I can just screw in the ND filter and leave it on all the time...does it have a clear pass-thru as well as ND?

djkarn105
07-28-2011, 10:51 AM
The lack of ND filters and the placement of the EVF are more of a hindrance than autofocus. You shouldn't trust robots to do your job for you.

alaskacameradude
07-28-2011, 10:58 AM
I actually bought this camera because a client hired me to shoot a wedding and they wanted a Blu ray deliverable. It worked
just great! I have also shot some sports with it which worked well. If you want to use it in a run and gun type shoot, you
will probably want to buy the kit lens. The kit lens is slow, but has auto focus and auto iris. The manual iris wheel also
works smoothly with no clicks or 'steps' in the iris, so you can 'ride' the iris without the audience knowing it.
It's a nice combination for this type of shooting.

There are a couple issues however. The first thing, is that this is a 'slow' lens. This isn't much of a problem in shooting
low light though (well, it is in REALLY low light, but even with a 'slow' lens it will be better than most other cameras.)
This super 35 chip is so sensitive that you will need ND outdoors anyways (more on this in a sec). The gain is REALLY clean
as well, so you can gain up and shoot in low light and it actually still looks really good, even with +18 or +21 of gain.
You can go all the way up to +30 and even there it isn't nearly as bad as I was thinking it would be, just a really clean
looking image even at high gain levels.

The biggest issue here, is that you may not get the shallow depth of field you are thinking you will get, as you will
need a faster lens for that. Still, at the longer focal lengths, you do get some pretty shallow depth of field, so it's a
compromise obviously....kind of like the lens itself....kind of 'good' overall but not 'GREAT' at anything.

The second issue is the ND. You WILL need some ND for shooting outdoors. If you have the money, I will tell you right now,
buy the Heliopan variable ND filter. It is absolutely awesome! Put it on the kit lens, and you now have a absolutely GREAT
run and gun camera. As usual, the tradeoff here is the cost, the Heliopan costs about $400. However, I will tell you,
it is worth every single penny. It does NOT have a clear pass through either, you are getting ND 0.3 - ND 2.0. In
other words, from 1 to 6.6 stops of ND. If you are outdoors, you will ALWAYS want to have the ND on, as it will be
needed. If you are indoors, you may run into situations with the slow kit lens where you wish it wasn't on.
You then either have to screw it off, or increase the (very clean) gain. It is a compromise like many things about
this camera.

You may want to look at the AF-100 as it has built in ND's. I bought this camera because of the absolutely STUNNING
images it puts out. But it has more 'issues/workarounds' than the AF-100. However, I knew this going in, and was
prepared/willing to deal with them....because I liked the image a bit better than the image from the AF-100. That being
said, the AF-100 looks really good as well, and you don't have to deal with external ND. I do think the Sony kit lens is
better than anything offered for the AF 100 for run and gun, as it 'talks' with the camera and works really well. Neither
one of these cameras is 'great' for run and gun, in the same way something like the EX-1 or HMC-150 would be. But you can
make them work, just have to know going in what the issues might be. With the FS-100, the kit lens, and the Heliopan
variable ND, you have a pretty good camera for doing 'quick & dirty' shooting where you don't have time to script and set
up everything.

eheath
07-28-2011, 11:09 AM
I'm using the Tamron 28-75. It seems sharp, but there is a strange "image shift" when I rack focus somtimes.

That's whats know as your lens breathing. Most lenses with have this unless they are a cinema lens, even tv shows/movies will have a lens that breathes, its just kinda how it is.

jdv
07-28-2011, 11:28 AM
Only reason to get the kit lens IMO is to run and gun or do weddings... which it should work fine for.

Guys are shooting wedding a 7D's, so this camera - whatever it's weaknesses might be - has got to be better then using a DSLR.

I'll say this though - the AF100 seems much more appropriate for weddings - it just seems like faster, more practical camera -while the FS100 seems to be the better bet for narratives.

legrevedotcom
07-28-2011, 12:41 PM
I actually bought this camera because a client hired me to shoot a wedding and they wanted a Blu ray deliverable. It worked just great!
I have also shot some sports with it which worked well. If you want to use it in a run and gun type shoot, you will probably want to buy
the kit lens. The kit lens is slow, but has auto focus and auto iris. The manual iris wheel also works smoothly with no clicks or 'steps'
in the iris, so you can 'ride' the iris without the audience knowing it. It's a nice combination for this type of shooting. There are a
couple issues however. The first thing, is that this is a 'slow' lens. This isn't much of a problem in shooting low light though....
this super 35 chip is so sensitive that you will need ND outdoors anyways (more on this in a sec). The gain is REALLY clean as well,
so you can gain up and shoot in low light and it actually still looks really good, even with +18 or +21 of gain. You can go all the
way up to +30 and even there it isn't nearly as bad as I was thinking it would be, just a really clean looking image even at high
gain levels. The biggest issue here, is that you may not get the shallow depth of field you are thinking you will get, as you will
need a faster lens for that. Still, at the longer focal lengths, you do get some pretty shallow depth of field, so it's a compromise
obviously....kind of like the lens itself....kind of 'good' overall but not 'GREAT' at anything. The second issue is the ND. You WILL
need some ND for shooting outdoors. If you have the money, I will tell you right now, buy the Heliopan variable ND filter. It is absolutely
awesome! Put it on the kit lens, and you now have a absolutely GREAT run and gun camera. The biggest issue here is the cost, the Heliopan
costs about $400. However, I will tell you, it is worth every single penny. It does NOT have a clear pass through either, you are getting
ND 0.3 - ND 2.0. In other words, from 1 to 6.6 stops of ND. If you are outdoors, you will ALWAYS want to have the ND on, as it will be needed.
If you are indoors, you may run into situations with the slow kit lens where you wish it wasn't on. You either have to screw it off, or increase
the (very clean) gain. It is a compromise like many things about this camera. You may want to look at the AF-100 as it has built in ND's.
I bought this camera because of the absolutely STUNNING images it puts out. But it has more 'issues/workarounds' than the AF-100. However,
I knew this going in, and was prepared/willing to deal with them....because I liked the image a bit better than the image from the AF-100.
That being said, the AF-100 looks really good as well, and you don't have to deal with external ND. I do think the Sony kit lens is better
than anything offered for the AF 100 for run and gun, as it 'talks' with the camera and works really well. Neither one of these cameras is
'great' for run and gun, in the same way something like the EX-1 or HMC-150 would be. But you can make them work, just have to know going
in what the issues might be. With the FS-100, the kit lens, and the Heliopan variable ND, you have a pretty good camera for doing
'quick & dirty' shooting where you don't have time to script and set up everything.

My eyes.... my eyes....

jetswing
07-28-2011, 12:51 PM
My eyes.... my eyes....
more like my head... my head... it reads blah blah blah blah... :grin:

MattDavis
07-28-2011, 01:23 PM
I do stuff that needs Run and Gun, mostly corporate events and jollies. The EX1s have ruled supreme in this sector. Half inch chips are just about enough to offer good low light performance and background separation using a bit of selective focus for voxpops and ad-hoc interviews. Take one camera, add two batteries, enough cards and a monopod, and you can cover just about all the R&G you need and bring back great images.

The FS100 has been the consumate Interview Machine, Beauty Shot Magnet, General View Acquisitor and Closeup Queen. Having done tests comparing the FS100, EX1 and 5D in interview tests, whilst I love a couple of the 5D shots, the FS100 muscles in and is a contender in so many ways. It really is a DSLR replacement.

But it is NOT an EX1 replacement.

You'll be futzing over lenses - some go this way, others go that way to infinity... and some go beyond if your adaptor isn't perfect.

The Sony lens gives you Image Stabilisation and Autofocus, but I found the AF too slow and inaccurate, AND there's no manual override. The lens actuation has a latency to it, as does the zoom. The f-stop of the lens, even 'wide' open, brings it inline with 2/3" chips and even 1/2" chips if you judge harshly. I did side by sides with the EX1 and FS100 to check this out.

If I had to take 1 camera to a big event to shoot R&G, I'm still taking my EX1R.

But on almost every other shoot, I'll be packing an FS100.

The 5D is still an awesome camera, the FS100 is close to doing what it does a little better and with 'video' controls and no limitations. It can do Run & Gun, but only if you're willing to dress up like Rambo with lenses in pockets, pouches for viewfinders and a rig of some sorts to help you shoot handheld without IS.

PS: EX1s and DSLRs do killer timelapse, FS100 does not. Good and bad about that. You may consider an FS100 with DSLR (stills and timelapse on DSLR whilst you pick up on FS100) or FS100 and EX1R (Travel around with handheld EX1 whilst FS100 takes care of interviews, GVs and beauty shots on a tripod - where it's very happy, to be honest). FS100 is a team camera, not a primadonna.

morgan_moore
07-28-2011, 01:51 PM
IMO its almost perfect wedding camera - with the kit lens its very EX1 ish and you can slap on a small simple prime when you have a moment for some bokeh porn

Matt - you can try the kit lens in manual mode and keep a finger near the AF button - basically keep it down and you are in AF mode - let go and you are manually over riding it !

S

MattDavis
07-28-2011, 01:55 PM
you can slap on a small simple prime when you have a moment for some bokeh porn

Like your style! <g>


try the kit lens in manual mode and keep a finger near the AF button

This might be the 'in' I've been missing. Simply hate this lens in auto, but genius is often rendering the previously hidden into the blindingly obvious! Cheers MM!

alaskacameradude
07-28-2011, 02:01 PM
more like my head... my head... it reads blah blah blah blah... :grin:

Sorry. I'll refrain from making any more posts on this forum as they are apparently pretty boring.

jetswing
07-28-2011, 02:05 PM
Sorry. I'll refrain from making any more posts on this forum as they are apparently pretty boring.
Sorry, I was just joking. Please come back! :)

jdv
07-28-2011, 04:01 PM
The Sony lens gives you Image Stabilisation and Autofocus, but I found the AF too slow and inaccurate, AND there's no manual override. The lens actuation has a latency to it, as does the zoom. The f-stop of the lens, even 'wide' open, brings it inline with 2/3" chips and even 1/2" chips if you judge harshly. I did side by sides with the EX1 and FS100 to check this out.

That said Matt, would you still buy it knowing what you know now? I've some wildly varying reviews - some swear by it, others pretty well trash it.

It's a pretty expensive lens, esp you have to by it by itself.

AndyInBuffalo
07-28-2011, 05:24 PM
One caveat to keep in mind with the kit lens is its lack of constant aperture.

Noel Evans
07-28-2011, 06:05 PM
Sorry. I'll refrain from making any more posts on this forum as they are apparently pretty boring.

I dont think anyone said that, it's that you typed a whole block of text without breaking it up i.e. no paragraph breaks etc. Don't sweat it.

thxdave
07-28-2011, 08:03 PM
Matt, thanks SO much for your analysis of the EX1 and the FS100. I've been struggling with how I'll integrate the '100 into my workflow alongside my EX1. I kept trying figure out if the '100 was going to be the "b-roll" camera to my EX1 or the other way around. I think you really summed it up very well. Thank you!

morgan_moore
07-28-2011, 09:39 PM
One caveat to keep in mind with the kit lens is its lack of constant aperture.

It does hve constant ap - 6.3 or less

again I find using this helps - looks very EX1 like but enables quick reframes without needing to fiddle with exposure

S

Kraut69
07-28-2011, 10:29 PM
Yes, Matt, thanks for putting things in good perspective. I've been struggling, too, about what roles these camera's will play. I hope the relief I feel now will still be around tomorrow!

Alaskacameradude, keep posting, I read everything you say on this and the other forum.

Human eyes have a hard time reading continous single line text. Hey, you didn't type in all caps, so that is good!

Harking back to my high school English days, my teacher's good advice was to hit the return key to start a new "paragraph" every time the thought/subject changes!

legrevedotcom
07-28-2011, 11:04 PM
Sorry. I'll refrain from making any more posts on this forum as they are apparently pretty boring.

Not boring :) It was tough on the eyes to read. You make great posts imo..

alaskacameradude
07-29-2011, 12:12 AM
Ahhh...I see what you mean about my post. Sorry, my computer does not do anything when I hit return. Sometimes, if I go in and edit my post,
it will let me put in a new paragraph when I hit return, but NEVER on the first post. Not sure if it is my browser Firefox (3.6.19) or not.
I can't figure out how to get it to let me use return to separate things into new lines. I guess I will just have to 'edit' every post
as that usually (but not always) works.


(For example, it just let me do it now that I went into 'edit' mode. But it wouldn't let me do it in the initial post. Weird! Anyways, I went
back and edited the offending post, hopefully it makes more sense now....and is easier to read!)

AndyInBuffalo
07-29-2011, 05:04 AM
It does hve constant ap - 6.3 or less

again I find using this helps - looks very EX1 like but enables quick reframes without needing to fiddle with exposure

S

Morgan, my understanding is that the kit lens does not hold aperture as you zoom in, making it a variable aperture lens. Am I wrong ?

maarek
07-29-2011, 05:20 AM
Morgan, my understanding is that the kit lens does not hold aperture as you zoom in, making it a variable aperture lens. Am I wrong ?

It should be constant if you keep it at 6.3 ;)

morgan_moore
07-29-2011, 05:31 AM
or smaller - indeed it does (to my eye)

S

MattDavis
07-29-2011, 06:38 AM
I know you're making a point Mr MM, but strictly speaking, it is NOT a constant aperture (http://bit.ly/pipLGS)! :-)


That said Matt, would you still buy it knowing what you know now? I've some wildly varying reviews - some swear by it, others pretty well trash it. It's a pretty expensive lens, esp you have to by it by itself.

We-ell, in the UK it's available with-camera for 200 less. For once the UK gets a better deal than the US (jk).

I'll put it this way: I would hate it if this were the only lens I'd use with the camera.

In the couple of months I've had the camera, I've needed an IS lens twice so far. Even then, I'm not sure if I like it's look - I tried the 'hard' setting and it was as if I'd switched off the shutter on the EX1.

However, the main reason it's in my bag and not on eBay is that it's the longest focal length I own. Let's say I'd prefer an 80-200 f2.8 with IS over the Sony lens, but that would be three times the price. I did try cheapo Tamron 80-210, but talk about 'through a glass darkly' - picture about as crisp as week old salad. And as appetising.

I did consider selling it, but it's not that bad. Just makes my FS100 feel like a Z1. Maybe sell it for a Birger mount... but it's a very compact lens...

morgan_moore
07-29-2011, 07:18 AM
Im just talking about using it

If you have it on 3.5 indoors and zoom in the images goes dark - this is very annoying

If you stop down to 6.3 and zoom it stays at 6.3

Its practical to use - at the compromise of the look

While it is not constant aperture it is also not 'non constant'

Ie you could get a lens design that always gets darker as you zoom even if the wider ap was avaialble at the longer end

for example a 4-5.6 zoom might potentiall go from 5.6-8 when zoomed rather than going from 5.6 to 5.6

Im not trying to get all linguistic or prove anything .. im just reporting back my use of the camera

Would we agree that for 6.3 or lower that it is a constant aperture lens?

S

MattDavis
07-29-2011, 07:28 AM
Well, even the EX1's built in lens - which, lurkers, is a corker btw - isn't 'constant aperture' as it goes from f1.9 to 2.8 if you zoom in. The wise money, if it's going to zoom to the full reach of the lens, DOES set the iris to 2.8 so you won't be hit by the NON... CONSTANT... aperture by using a slightly restricted aperture. Stopping down. OTOH, my Nikkor 17-55 2.8 is most definitely a constant aperture as there is no change to the maximum aperture as you go through the zoom range.

The slight restriction on the EX1 lens is a little bit of a grind (OMG, a whole STOP), but not like the 'who put a black hole in here?' drop of the Sony lens. Two? Two and a half stops?

But of course we don't always use our lenses wide open, do we? Cough, cough.

nyvz
07-29-2011, 07:56 AM
Well, even the EX1's built in lens - which, lurkers, is a corker btw - isn't 'constant aperture' as it goes from f1.9 to 2.8 if you zoom in.

I've generally found it goes at least as low as f3.4 at the end, so it ramps about a 1.5stop. But yes, I usually use ~f2.8 to avoid significant the constant ramp.

Then again, if you really want to compare the EX1/3 lens to a 35mm superzoom like the kit 18-200, a 5.8-81.2mm f1.9-3.4 for 1/2" will essentially have the same DOF, light gathering ability, and FOV as a 21-292mm f6.8-f12 on the FS100. This makes a common 18-250 f3.5-6.3 lens seem pretty reasonable. I still wouldn't recommend the sony 18-200 kit lens since the servo focus makes it impossible to focus accurately. Servo focus might work for a 1/3" camera with 4-5 stops more depth of field, but focus is so critical in most situations with a 35mm sensor that servo focusing is a dealbreaker.

morgan_moore
07-29-2011, 08:06 AM
the servo focus my not be a deal breaker at 6.3!

Im fascanated by this lens (mixed with the sensitivity of the FS100)

It just seems to turn the camera into an EX1

Which is great beacuse on every job Ive done previously I always wanted both my 7d and Ex1

now I just need my primes for the 7d/film look and that kit lens puts an EX1 in my pocket too!

S

nyvz
07-29-2011, 10:04 AM
the servo focus my not be a deal breaker at 6.3!


Seems to me something like a tamron/sigma 18-250 os in sony mount with the la-ea1 adapter might be a better option since it has more range, is slightly faster for most of the range, has real manual focus (though focus throw is super short), and may even be cheaper.

morgan_moore
07-29-2011, 10:16 AM
..but does the AF work

.. and the 'VR' (IS?)

That kit lens the AF would work if you were doing a walking shot or something

For any use but a specialised one or super fast RnG Id use some proper lenses

Current fav on sticks is nikkor 35-70 manual F3.5 zoom followed by nikkor 35 2.5 E

Still seeking a wide that is not as wide as my 14

S

AndyInBuffalo
07-29-2011, 10:41 AM
Seems to me something like a tamron/sigma 18-250 os in sony mount with the la-ea1 adapter might be a better option since it has more range, is slightly faster for most of the range, has real manual focus (though focus throw is super short), and may even be cheaper.

Without an iris ring on the lens, you'll be forced to use the iris wheel on the camera, resulting in flashing aperture and a loud clicking sound, making it a "run-stop recording-change iris-gun-and repeat". I have the Tamron 28-75 with the Sony adapter, and that's the problem I encountered. I'm now looking for a lens with an aperture ring that I'll have "de-clicked" in order to be able to change aperture live. There are a few places that will modify still lenses that way. AbelCine does it, I believe, Duclos, and maybe even your local camera repair shop. KEH will do it for about $125. Good thing is, they sell used lenses too.

MattDavis
07-29-2011, 11:06 AM
Please can I add a shout-out for 'De-clicking' in the UK for my good friend The Lens Doctor (mailto:ehouston.t21@btinternet.com)!

My 90mm 2.5 Macro is super slick on both aperture and focus. Currently looking for a gap in proceedings to send him my Samyangs.

nyvz
07-29-2011, 12:44 PM
Without an iris ring on the lens, you'll be forced to use the iris wheel on the camera, resulting in flashing aperture and a loud clicking sound, making it a "run-stop recording-change iris-gun-and repeat". I have the Tamron 28-75 with the Sony adapter, and that's the problem I encountered. I'm now looking for a lens with an aperture ring that I'll have "de-clicked" in order to be able to change aperture live. There are a few places that will modify still lenses that way. AbelCine does it, I believe, Duclos, and maybe even your local camera repair shop. KEH will do it for about $125. Good thing is, they sell used lenses too.

Don't E-mount lenses change aperture in hard stops with clicks as well? In my experience all electronic-aperture lenses and non-declicked manual lenses have an issue similiar to this.

alaskacameradude
07-29-2011, 07:28 PM
Don't E-mount lenses change aperture in hard stops with clicks as well? In my experience all electronic-aperture lenses and non-declicked manual lenses have an issue similiar to this.

I can't speak for all E-mount lenses but I know the 18-200 E mount kit lens does NOT have hard stops or clicks. It's one of the reasons I wanted it, nice smooth
iris change with no 'steppyness' at all.

nyvz
07-29-2011, 09:16 PM
I can't speak for all E-mount lenses but I know the 18-200 E mount kit lens does NOT have hard stops or clicks. It's one of the reasons I wanted it, nice smooth
iris change with no 'steppyness' at all.

Interesting, that is surprising but good to hear, but you still have the laggy servo control for the iris, right?

alaskacameradude
07-29-2011, 10:28 PM
Interesting, that is surprising but good to hear, but you still have the laggy servo control for the iris, right?

Well.....not 100% sure what you mean by that. The iris is on a wheel on the camera so it's not as responsive as having an iris ring on the
lens, by any means. So it's not ideal, but it seems to work pretty good, at least for my needs. It doesn't seem 'laggy' to me, maybe a little
'sluggish' but not too bad. Now it APPEARS like it may be moving slow because it doesn't show half or quarter stops in the viewfinder, so it
will say F4.5 and you will turn it a little, and the exposure will 'ramp' and change very smoothly, but it will still say F4.5, because you haven't
made it to the next F stop yet. So you may feel like you are turning it a lot to get it to switch F stop, but that's because it does it smoothly.
Not sure what you would be looking for, it's not as nice as a 'declicked' manual lens or the iris lens on a proper motion camera, but it's a pretty
decent substitute in my eyes. Seems very similar to the iris wheel on the Panny HMC-150 as a matter of fact.