PDA

View Full Version : Initial tests with the FS100 & Atomos Ninja



millerandmiller
07-23-2011, 02:06 AM
I will be doing more tests over the next couple of days, but though I would share what I was briefly testing yesterday.


FS100 AVCHD PRORES LT and HQ Verses Ninja Prores HQ - Uncompressed PNG Frame grabs. Download from here: (43.2Mb zip file, 12 files)
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29586086/ATOMOSvAVCHD_Framegrabs.zip


400% blow up. The jaggies present are not interlaced artefacts, just from PS blowup with hard edges.
Native AVCHD (via clipwrap) Verses Ninja Prores HQ:
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/29586086/avchd_native_v_ninja.jpg

Any ideas how to get rid of the interlacing flag on the files from the Ninja for use in FCP? without a generation loss? Wonder when the Stripper add from Atomos is coming?

Thanks to Guy at Hireacamera (http://hireacamera.com) for the use of the Ninja over the weekend.

Alpern
07-23-2011, 03:11 AM
I used compressor or after effects to deinterlace.

millerandmiller
07-23-2011, 03:20 AM
Hi Alpern, I used compressor but its time consuming and I don't like the results compared to say opening in photoshop cs5 where it sees the file as progressive, straight out. I want something that does not re transcode the data just the container/flagging.

millerandmiller
07-23-2011, 06:25 AM
Let me add to this. The output file from the Atomos Ninja when recording 1080/25p (UK) on the FS100 is progressive, its just FCP thinks its interlaced as its in the 50i wrapper so to speak.

If you view import into FCP you see the the smooth stair stepping, it like you have de-interlaced a clip that didn't need de-interlacing and indeed it doesn't. If you view the clip in Photoshop the the file is crystal clear, pixel x pixel. The only way you get to see this in FCP is if you change the sequence setting to something like Animation or H.264. It then views perfect, but not much use.

You can just ignore the jaggies in FCP and edit as normal (seems slower, more process intensive?) and transcode for destination as normal keeping compressor set to progressive.

Will have to wait for the ATOMOS STRIPPER application I suppose.

Dermot
07-23-2011, 06:38 AM
First thanks for doing this, this is something i have to do next week myself for the film i am prepping for, i need to show the graded final test on a 40 foot screen in a few weeks, or i have to go back to RED or Alexa

i use Avid DS for finishing, in an uncompressed 444 DCi 2K project i could link to your Qt's, and us DS's native pulldown removal node built in to get a clean output from the file, then export a directly from the linked/pulldown removed Qt.

Contact me for my FTP co-ordnates if you wish

d

MattDavis
07-23-2011, 07:23 AM
The only way you get to see this in FCP is if you change the sequence setting to something like Animation or H.264. It then views perfect, but not much use.

PMJI - and I may be barking up an entirely random tree, let alone the wrong one, but...

FCP7, Command-0 Sequence settings: set the field dominance from the 'erroneously' set upper/lower fields to 'none'

This allows me to mix old interlaced DV stuff (which gets deinterlaced) with PsF DV which is stored as interlaced but is progressive. The output is, of course, progressive. If your Ninja stuff is coming in flagged as interlaced - but isn't - it would set the sequence up to interlaced, but just forcing it off should be the same as my workaround for mixing progressive, PsF and interlaced footage together - no pre-import rendering required (BTW, Nattress de-interlacer is lovely should anyone need a nice in-app deinterlacer these days).

37181

mico
07-23-2011, 07:49 AM
You have to use compressor to remove pulldown. Fortunately the Fs100 flags the 24p (or 25p) frames in a 60i (or 50i) stream so getting true 24p is much easier than cameras that do not flag the frames.

Here is a tutorial. Its says for HV20 but can be used with any camera. And since you are already Prores you can disregard some of the steps and also make the necessary changes if you are a 25per.

http://support.apple.com/kb/HT2410

mico
07-23-2011, 08:04 AM
By the way if you're renting a recorder and don't want to go through this the Nanoflash as well as the upcoming Sound devices px220 and 240 do pulldown automatically in the recorder.

The sound devices does this in Prores and avid DnxHD. The nanoflash does this in the sony xdcam codec in a quicktime wrapper as well as mxf.

The nanoflash material will need a render to Prores if that is the codec you decide for output to since it will be placed in a xdcam sequence setting. The sound devices will not since its prores already.

Unless the nanoflash drops in price considerably I will wait for the sound devices as they are the same price, with a cheaper HDMI only version by sound devices, with more features and record in 10 bit as opposed to nanoflashes 8bit.

I was up on the ninja because of price but without hdmi loop through for an evf (I don't want to loop through the evf to the recorder and can't get confirmation if thats even possible with the zacuto or SmallHD dp4 evf's) and no auto pulldown removal it seems too much effort and trouble to get higher bit rate footage. Even without loop through I would consider it again if their upcoming firmware for it has a way to make the low res screen usable as an evf, but I have my doubts.

millerandmiller
07-23-2011, 10:39 AM
Thanks Dermot, I'm just testing at the moment.

millerandmiller
07-23-2011, 10:42 AM
Thanks Mico, I'm going to have a look at other options. Will also have to recheck once Atomos update the firmware in a couple of weeks.

millerandmiller
07-23-2011, 10:44 AM
Hi Matt, yeah I've tried this both ways and it makes no change. It's not like normal interlacing its soft like you have taken it out or added it in wrong.

millerandmiller
07-23-2011, 11:06 AM
Just tried the Atomos file in Adobe Premiere CS5 and the preview and export are sharp, interesting...

David Shapton
07-23-2011, 03:24 PM
@Millerandmiller

Not sure why you're seeing this effect. Lots of people are using FS100 footage from a Ninja in FCP. There should be no interlace artifacts because even though it's output from the camera as 50i, the two fields are derived from the same progressive frame: there is no time difference in the images contained in the fields. Everyone I've spoken to has said that it's indistinguishable from 25p. Are you sure that you're not seeing a single field preview, which would only have 540 lines instead of 1080, and would therefore look jagged (relative to full-res) if you look closely enough - especially on diagonals?

Dave Shapton
Atomos

maarek
07-23-2011, 04:30 PM
You do have the interlacing settings set to "none" in FCP? FCP is very bad in setting the interlace settings, you basically have to set them clip by clip and before you drag them into the timeline. RECHECK that ALL of your clips (new and old) are actually set as progressive in a progressive sequence, otherwise FCP will deinterlace those it deems as interlaced even if they are not.

cuervo
07-23-2011, 05:17 PM
I was baffled, at first, about interlaced artifacts in my footage. After re-reading the owner's manual, I noticed that the record format can be set differently from the external output format. Check your "video out" settings. Have you selected progressive or interlaced?

David Shapton
07-23-2011, 11:14 PM
I was baffled, at first, about interlaced artifacts in my footage. After re-reading the owner's manual, I noticed that the record format can be set differently from the external output format. Check your "video out" settings. Have you selected progressive or interlaced?

Here's an article from our online Knowledge Base about how to set the HDMI output with the Ninja:

To get the best results when using a Ninja with the FS100, you need to set the “HDMI Output” menu to “Interlaced” - even if you want to record progressive footage. In this mode, if you set your camera to record 25 or 30p, the HDMI signal will be at 50i or 60i - but this interlaced signal actually “contains” the progressive image in full, and it looks exactly the same, because each of the two interlaced fields that make up a complete frame actually come from the same, single, progressive frame. When you put the two fields back together (as will always happen on a modern screen) what you get is the orignal progressive frame.

Note that if you set the HDMI output to 50p or 60p, the Ninja will not “see” this signal. This is because the data rate is double that of 50i and 60i, and the Ninja is not designed to handle this type of signal. 50p and 60p are not broadcast standards, and very few devices can actually play them.

Dave Shapton
Atomos

millerandmiller
07-24-2011, 12:26 AM
@Millerandmiller

Not sure why you're seeing this effect. Lots of people are using FS100 footage from a Ninja in FCP. There should be no interlace artifacts because even though it's output from the camera as 50i, the two fields are derived from the same progressive frame: there is no time difference in the images contained in the fields. Everyone I've spoken to has said that it's indistinguishable from 25p. Are you sure that you're not seeing a single field preview, which would only have 540 lines instead of 1080, and would therefore look jagged (relative to full-res) if you look closely enough - especially on diagonals?

Dave Shapton
Atomos

Hi Dave thanks for the message.

I know it was just the preview as the file previewed in others viewers is clean with a 200% viewing enlargement, just could not get FCP to play nice with it.
Last night I spent along time trying to remember a bit of software I used 5 years ago that you could change the meta data / identifier. Found it thanks to internet forums. It's called 'Dumpster' (OSX) and you open the file from the Atomos and change "Fields = 2
Details = 1" to "Fields = 1 Details = 0" click save (instant) import in to FCP, FCP see the file as progressive and drops into a progressive sequence.

No transcoding or even saving of the entire file. I'm happy now :)

P.S. I assume this is what your stripper app will do?

dumpster_grab.jpg
(http://www.mmfilm.co.uk/twitterpics/dumpster_grab.jpg)

millerandmiller
07-24-2011, 12:55 AM
P.S. 'Dumpster' is an old Apple Dev program. You won't be able to run it in Lion. Just up to Snow.
I found someone who put a link on an Apple support page. (This is not my link) Dumpster for Macintosh v 7.1.3 (http://idisk.me.com/jrwalker4-Public/Dumpster.dmg)

NeedCreative
07-26-2011, 05:11 PM
I just got the Ninja and I for the life of me can't get it to deinterlace correctly either coming from the FS100. I have the FS100 set for 24p and the HDMI output set to 60i. When I try looking at the clips in anything (Magic Bullet Grinder, Quicktime, Cinematools) it shows the native fps of the footage is 30fps, which it is not. When I attempt a conform to 24p and progressive, the output still has interlacing artifacts. I feel like an idiot; haven't dealt with interlaced footage in a long time. What am I missing?

addax
07-27-2011, 12:27 PM
I just got the Ninja and I for the life of me can't get it to deinterlace correctly either coming from the FS100. I have the FS100 set for 24p and the HDMI output set to 60i. When I try looking at the clips in anything (Magic Bullet Grinder, Quicktime, Cinematools) it shows the native fps of the footage is 30fps, which it is not. When I attempt a conform to 24p and progressive, the output still has interlacing artifacts. I feel like an idiot; haven't dealt with interlaced footage in a long time. What am I missing?

+1 with Sony Vegas.

NeedCreative
07-27-2011, 12:49 PM
+1 with Sony Vegas. I wrote a follow up I think in another post but I did get it to work fine in Compressor; I stupidly had the frame rate wrong. (24fps vs 23.97). Couldn't get Grinder to work though.

NeedCreative
07-27-2011, 05:06 PM
A follow up: I was able today to test new Zacuto EVF (with new firmware loaded/released yesterday, though I am not sure this had anything to do with it) with the FS100 passing through to the Atomos Ninja. I ran HDMI out to Zacuto, turned camera on, then Zacuto, then Ninja. Worked great, 24p reverse telecine worked fine going through the EVF (tested with compressor... with the right frame rate this time haha).

Nice to see this finally working.

37463

bkmvincent
07-27-2011, 05:18 PM
So since you have to record at 1080i, aren't you losing a lot of resolution? (1440x1080 compared to 1920x1080)? I've yet to understand why it has to be this way...to cut cost on the recorder?

Alpern
07-27-2011, 08:57 PM
You are not losing any resolution. The full 24p signal is packed into the 60i signal. The ninja records it as 29.97p and you use compressor (or other software) to remove the interlacing and convert it to 24P. Its a pain in @ss but it works.

NeedCreative
07-28-2011, 09:12 AM
You are not losing any resolution. The full 24p signal is packed into the 60i signal. The ninja records it as 29.97p and you use compressor (or other software) to remove the interlacing and convert it to 24P. Its a pain in @ss but it works.

yes as Alpern said. 1080i 60i is 60 interlaced frames of 1920X1080. (Only HDV records 1440 wide AFAIK). All the full progressed frames are present in the 60i stream, flagged as such. The 60i stream is just a wrapper. I've compared the internal 24p and the reverse telecine from the Ninja via the flagged 60i output... they are the exactly same after the RT process (there are color and detail advantages to the Ninja's prores recording of the uncompressed output of course).

From Atomos - they explain it better:

Many cameras output their video signals differently through HDMI than they do to their own internal storage. Cameras “wrap” their progressive internal signals as an interlaced video output for transmission over HDMI.

This is simply to ensure compatibility with all displays new and old even though HDMI supports 24, 25 and 30p natively.
The Ninja can and does record and store your 24, 25 and 30p images perfectly, “wrapped” in an interlaced signal. You will see some different frame-rates reported by your Ninja compared to the settings on your camera. This is normal.

For example, if your camera is set to 25p (in Europe) you may see 1080i50 on your Ninja. Or (in America and former NTSC countries) you may see 1080i59.94 on your Ninja instead of 23.98p.

It’s worth repeating this.You will probably find that the framerate you have your camera set to record to is not the same as the video signal coming out of the HDMI connection.
In NTSC regions (eg the USA and Japan) it can be more complicated, because a 24p signal is turned into a 60i one using a process called 3:2 pulldown, which maps the 24 fames in the progressive footage into a 60i stream using a 3:2 pattern (or “cadence”).

You can use the interlaced signal produced by your camera as it is, or you can remove the pulldown using a “reverse telecine” program ...

You can confirm whether your images have been subject to 3:2 pulldown by stepping through frames sequentially. The forth frame into the sequence will look like a double frame. It’s the result of two fields added together. The fifth frame will have the same properties as the forth, and then the sixth frame, which is the start of the next sequence, will look “normal”.

Running the process in reverse through software on your computer can remove the pulldown completely, leaving you with clean, progressive footage. We wanted to keep the cost of the Ninja as low as possible, so, rather add the cost of building this into hardware, we chose to leave you with the option to remove pulldown in our software.
Please test the Ninja with the camera and format that you intend to use to ensure that the combination will work. Remember standard formats like 50i, 60i, 720p are all supported natively and are recommended with the Ninja.

NeedCreative
07-28-2011, 09:14 AM
You are not losing any resolution. The full 24p signal is packed into the 60i signal. The ninja records it as 29.97p and you use compressor (or other software) to remove the interlacing and convert it to 24P. Its a pain in @ss but it works.

yes as Alpern said. 1080i 60i is 60 interlaced frames of 1920X1080. (Only HDV records 1440 wide AFAIK). All the full progressed frames are present in the 60i stream, flagged as such. The 60i stream is just a wrapper. I've compared the internal 24p and the reverse telecine from the Ninja via the flagged 60i output... they are the exactly same after the RT process (there are color and detail advantages to the Ninja's prores recording of the uncompressed output of course).

From Atomos - they explain it better:

Many cameras output their video signals differently through HDMI than they do to their own internal storage. Cameras “wrap” their progressive internal signals as an interlaced video output for transmission over HDMI.

This is simply to ensure compatibility with all displays new and old even though HDMI supports 24, 25 and 30p natively.
The Ninja can and does record and store your 24, 25 and 30p images perfectly, “wrapped” in an interlaced signal. You will see some different frame-rates reported by your Ninja compared to the settings on your camera. This is normal.

For example, if your camera is set to 25p (in Europe) you may see 1080i50 on your Ninja. Or (in America and former NTSC countries) you may see 1080i59.94 on your Ninja instead of 23.98p.

It’s worth repeating this.You will probably find that the framerate you have your camera set to record to is not the same as the video signal coming out of the HDMI connection.
In NTSC regions (eg the USA and Japan) it can be more complicated, because a 24p signal is turned into a 60i one using a process called 3:2 pulldown, which maps the 24 fames in the progressive footage into a 60i stream using a 3:2 pattern (or “cadence”).

You can use the interlaced signal produced by your camera as it is, or you can remove the pulldown using a “reverse telecine” program ...

You can confirm whether your images have been subject to 3:2 pulldown by stepping through frames sequentially. The forth frame into the sequence will look like a double frame. It’s the result of two fields added together. The fifth frame will have the same properties as the forth, and then the sixth frame, which is the start of the next sequence, will look “normal”.

Running the process in reverse through software on your computer can remove the pulldown completely, leaving you with clean, progressive footage. We wanted to keep the cost of the Ninja as low as possible, so, rather add the cost of building this into hardware, we chose to leave you with the option to remove pulldown in our software.
Please test the Ninja with the camera and format that you intend to use to ensure that the combination will work. Remember standard formats like 50i, 60i, 720p are all supported natively and are recommended with the Ninja.

NeedCreative
07-28-2011, 02:04 PM
BTW today Atomos released a major firmware update - 2.01. I haven't been able to test yet but adds great new stuff inlcuding full speed/quality playback, timecode (TOD) and from LANC, file naming incl TOD and sequential, and bug fixes.

addax
07-28-2011, 03:08 PM
Upgraded! Thanks for the tip...