HVX Post Requirements

[D_and_G]

I'm trying to analyze the post requirements for the HVX.
Specifically the higher budget items.

For colour correction of DVCPRO HD footage : Will I need a new HD monitor ?, the NTSC won't be good enough?

Also what kind of processing power and memory (PC or Mac) will I need if I want to edit HD footage? Is uncompressed even feasible ?

Finally, I see on Apples website (new Studio) they are touting integration with the P2 format, are they partners with Panasonic and P2 workflow ? Does that mean better integration than Avid ?

Sorry about all the questions, but if I need to invest $ for a new workflow, I need lots of lead time. I'm beginning to think that the ancillary upgrades may match the price of the camera. Hope not. BTW my primary concern is for film out.

[D_and_G]

I just thought of something more about post workflow.

You won't need a tape deck (dsr 11 for example) with this will ya ?

You'll either input directly from the cam - no moving parts to worry about.
Or through a hard drive. Again , no tape no moving parts.

[galt]

How will I get the HD signal to the monitor? WHat kind of connectors should the monitor have? I am looking at this monitor right now, but it does not specifically say HD ready. It does have enough resolution though, so I guess I don't understand something.

http://accessories.us.dell.com/sna/productdetail.aspx?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&sku=320-4221&link_number=

[DavidDCM]

http://www.blackmagic-design.net/products/hdlink/specs/

this might work... the Apple 23" display works with the HD link.

[OliverM]

It won't stop there. Unless you have a blackmagic HD card that has an SDI HD out, you need to able to go thru the cam. Hope that works. And then you need a convertor to convert the analog HD signal to SDI.
Hmz, the convertor will probably set you back as much as an HD card from BlackMagic so never mind...

[bilgami]

BiLGaMi Video Productions :thumbup:

Would my Sony dvd recorder be able to record an HD signal. I paid 500 for it so I hope it works.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

[Barry_Green]

An NTSC monitor will not be good enough for color correction of HD footage. HD is an inherently digital format and suffers from none of the color bleed or other artifacts that NTSC puts up with.

So you'll want an HD monitor. Adam Wilt and others are praising the Dell 2405FPW, not specifically because it's a great monitor, but because it's astoundingly affordable for a 1920x1080, DVI & component video display.

What type of monitor to get is a far more open question with HD. With NTSC, we always said "you need a CRT, LCDs aren't good enough." But with HD, CRT is probably the least prevalent monitor style! Even though it provides arguably the best picture, CRT is the least popular because of the massive size. So LCD, plasma, DLP, D-ILA... you've got to make your choice somewhere. And in that realm, the Dell starts looking awfully appealing. Plus it's a regular computer monitor as well, and a massive one.

For decks, you need no deck at all. You can edit the cards directly from a PCMCIA reader, or from the camera itself, or you can have the camera dub the cards onto any firewire or USB2 hard disk and edit from there. So decks are not an issue.

For processing power -- check the recommended specs from the editor you intend to use. FCP-HD and Avid Express HD and Canopus Edius all support it, so look to them for the minimum specs you will need to meet.

As far as whether Apple provides better integration than Avid, keep in mind that Avid is also a P2 partner and should offer every bit as much integration as Apple does.

[galt]

Thanks Barry, that just about clinches the Dell monitor for me. My current second monitor is on it's last legs, and will die any time now.

[Sirius_Doggy]

For decks, you need no deck at all. You can edit the cards directly from a PCMCIA reader, or from the camera itself, or you can have the camera dub the cards onto any firewire or USB2 hard disk and edit from there. So decks are not an issue.



The deck is not an issue until that client you sold on HD says "Great! I love it, now where's my HD copy?"
Hopefully we'll (and our clients) all have Blue-Ray or HDDVD recorders by the time the camera is released.
Don't forget about that added expense in your workflow....

[Barry_Green]

Burn it to hard disk. Burn it to dual-layer DVD. How long is the program you're talking about?

I think very, very few of us are likely to have a DVCPRO-HD deck as part of our regular workflow. And I think very few clients are going to have the deck that they could play it back on.

External hard disks are going to be the delivery medium. Cheaper than a tape, and you don't need a deck to make it, and the client doesn't need a deck to access the material.

[thisiswells]

The deck is not an issue until that client you sold on HD says "Great! I love it, now where's my HD copy?"
Hopefully we'll (and our clients) all have Blue-Ray or HDDVD recorders by the time the camera is released.
Don't forget about that added expense in your workflow....

Do you have any idea how many people already ask this question with current HD solutions?
Sure, stuff is archived on a DVCProHD tape, but what client of yours or
mine actually has any conceivable need for an HD home copy today? Every project I've
been a part of with DVCProHD (3) was only ever released on standard def. DVD and noone
thought anything of it. The HD has a certain aesthetic to it (color sampling, framerates)
that MiniDV doesn't. So, you've got to look at available camera and release options and
determine what system gives me the nicest looking picture? It it Super8mm film, is it
MiniDV, HDV, HVX200? I don't have the answer to that question, necessarily. But,
considering HD distribution has NEVER been an option for anyone and still isn't, I would
think it best to have a camera that captures great images, resolution independant, and
probably that more than any other reason is why I see very little point in HDV. The
cameras do not offer anything that I couldn't already do better with a MiniDV camera,
besides resolution, which is the one thing I cannot utilize right now. So--it makes sense
to go with a camera that has features that help make better pictures today and maybe
an upgrade would be in line if you prefer the IT-style workflow that P2 offers... The new
camera is valuable not only because it's HD, it has specs that would indicate it will have
more features and better quality than currently available handheld sized SD cameras.

brian wells

[evinsky]

The prooblem with LCD viewing is not HDTV but SD. If all your doing is HD you're fine because those monitors are native 1080. But when you start doing 480 the image looks like $#%@! Because the monitor has to up-rez to display and that only looks good on the best of devices like an up-rez dvd player. CRTs on the other hand can truly switch resolutions. They can look amazing with both SD and HDTV signals. Blus with true blacks they are best for critical corrections. That being said I probabbly will get the new 17" production LCD from Pany as a field monitor for the HVX. However I'll get something like this...
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=337516&is=REG
For editing and correction, along wiith the Blackmagic HD Plus.
The other important consideration is storage...

[Sirius_Doggy]

Burn it to hard disk. Burn it to dual-layer DVD. How long is the program you're talking about? For storage or transfer that may work but my client is not going to be able to throw that DVD in his current DVD player and play it back in HD.


I think very, very few of us are likely to have a DVCPRO-HD deck as part of our regular workflow. And I think very few clients are going to have the deck that they could play it back on.
Agreed, just trying to figure out the whole HD workflow when "a" project is complete and the client ask for their HD "copy" so they can watch it on their new HD projection TV at home.

[braw]

For storage or transfer that may work but my client is not going to be able to throw that DVD in his current DVD player and play it back in HD.

Why not? They should at the very least have a DVD player in their system if they're requesting HD tapes. It would only be data, and i they don't have the capacity to view it I'd be suspect at how they would view an HD tape.

[Sirius_Doggy]

Why not? They should at the very least have a DVD player in their system if they're requesting HD tapes. It would only be data, and i they don't have the capacity to view it I'd be suspect at how they would view an HD tape.
I'm talking about current Standard definition set top DVD players that have a maximum output of 480P. You can't record a HD signal onto a standard blank 4.7gig DVD and that will playback on this player in HD.
IT WILL NOT DO IT.
If the file size/length is small enough you can record it to this disc for storage and transfer purposes as a data file though. Maybe playback on a computer if converted to HD-WMV.
You'll need a set top Blue-ray or HDDVD player to playback a HD movie.
And that means you'll need a Blue-Ray or HDDVD recorder on your computer... Which one? Both? Who knows at this point. It's kind of like the old Beta/VHS war getting ready to happen all over again.....

[Barry_Green]

Agreed, just trying to figure out the whole HD workflow when "a" project is complete and the client ask for their HD "copy" so they can watch it on their new HD projection TV at home.
Yeah, but that problem has always been with us. There is *no* viable HD delivery medium yet!

Eventually there will be HD-DVD or blu-ray as an option. But other than that, there is no way to get it from here to there. You can give them a WMV-HD DVD that they could play in their computer, but...

I mean, seriously -- what HD playback device do they have on their HDTV? None. So how would you expect to deliver it to them in HD?

Right now the only way you could even hope to deliver it affordably would probably be through a D-VHS deck, and who has one of those?

[Sirius_Doggy]

Yeah, but that problem has always been with us. There is *no* viable HD delivery medium yet!


I guess that's my point... I'm not trying to piss anyone off or anything.
It's just that lately we've all been talking about "HDV vs HDVCPro" and " P2 capacity issues"
I'm just playing devils advocate on all of the issues and the one thing it seems hardly anyone is talking about is the HD distribution issue.

Whatever the HD format people go with, distribution to the masses is an issue.

Now if you are an indie film maker and you have to submit a Digibeta or 35mm print for viewing at film festivals - no problem, take your completed project on a harddrive to a post house and have your print/Digibeta copy made.

If you are like me and you produce short training or marketing videos that your clients want to distibute to their mailing list..... then HD is not a consideration at the moment because as you say "There is *no* viable HD delivery medium yet!"
Once the BlueRay / HD-DVD format war is over and every household is going out replacing their settop DVD players with this new HD version, I'm gonna be all over it.
And by then I'm sure 128Gig P2 cards will cost $50!:grin:

[Barry_Green]

Exactly. It'll be about 2010 before over 50% of US households have any sort of HD player.

I think we're likely to see HD delivered over the internet before we see players in people's homes. And by 2010, yes the 128gb card will probably cost around $200-$400, going by Panasonic's roadmap, and the current trend of a card costing about as much as the previous card cost when it was announced.

[thisiswells]

I constantly talk about the lack of a HD home release format.... always followed by two benefits
the HVX200 offers over every single other MiniDV camera:
4:2:2 color sampling and variable framerates.

Perhaps for training videos, variable framerates wouldn't be on the top of anyone's list, but HD resolution color sampling with more than ten times the information than a MiniDV camera is
definitely a significant improvement and worthwhile. The entire issue of no HD release system
makes me wonder what is the point of HDV? At least with the HVX200 offers a competitive
advantage to me now that is basically a fringe benefit of the fact that it's an "HD" camera.

brian wells

[RyanF]

I just thought of something more about post workflow.

You won't need a tape deck (dsr 11 for example) with this will ya ?

You'll either input directly from the cam - no moving parts to worry about.
Or through a hard drive. Again , no tape no moving parts.

Your points are good but how do you plan to log your footage? Puting extra hours on the camera? And what about transcribing interviews? I know panasonic is making a deck for the P2 cards (wasn't it like 4-7 grand?) and P2 drives for pc's, but does that mean I will be able to log it in Avid Express Pro or Final Cut? Do you need the deck?

[Barry_Green]

The "deck" is an advanced type of player that supports five card slots at once, and has all sorts of playback features on it -- quite overkill for the desktop video producer.

Getting your footage off the card will be accomplished in one of several ways -- either by plugging the camera in and transferring via USB or Firewire (no moving parts, no "hours on the camera" worries). Or you can edit straight from the camera, without even transferring the files over -- the camera itself will show up on your desktop as an external hard disk.

Or, you could plug in a hard drive to the camera and just dub 'em off, copying the P2 contents straight to the hard disk.

Or, if you want to leave the camera totally out of the equation, you just plug the P2 card straight into your laptop's PCMCIA/Cardbus slot, where it pops up on the desktop like an external hard disk. If you're using a desktop, you can get a PCMCIA reader adapter for a desktop for something like $70.

So no, you don't need any expensive equipment at all, there are several ways to do it for free, and even if you want the $70 cardbus adapter, that's still a whole lot less than, for example, a $4,000 HDV deck.

[Gary_McClurg]

Unless you don't have a lap top. What would be the least amount of requirements for a lap top to work with HD?

[Barry_Green]

Well, that's up to the editing program you're using, and the flavor of HD. DVCPRO-HD is a lot easier on the processor than HDV is. If you're talking about DVCPRO-HD requirements, I'd say just cruise on over to apple.com for the FCP "minimum requirements", or Avid for the Express HD requirements.

[ChuckS]

Exactly. It'll be about 2010 before over 50% of US households have any sort of HD player.

I think we're likely to see HD delivered over the internet before we see players in people's homes. And by 2010, yes the 128gb card will probably cost around $200-$400, going by Panasonic's roadmap, and the current trend of a card costing about as much as the previous card cost when it was announced.
There’s something about this I don’t quite understand, you think it will be 2010 before 50% of the US population owns an HD anything – Right? Is that a bad thing? Do you think it should happen faster?

I’m not disagreeing, quite the opposite. If 50% of the US population own an HD device in the next five years that would represent an CAGR of more than 35% and provide more than $19B in software (content) sales. That would make it the fastest growing consumer electronics product in history, I hope you are right. Also at NAB you were hard pressed to find a standard definition image anywhere.

When I check out the screen grabs section I usually think twice before downloading anything over 25MBs, it just takes too long. HD, even with the most optimistic compression will still be in the GB’s. I’m not sure of the statistics for broadband in the US but I would imagine that it is still well below 50%. Can you imagine the amount of bandwidth required if there was a significant growth in both the number of people using broadband and the significant increase in file transfer size?

I respectively disagree, the roll out of HD has begun and it will increase significantly over the next two years. Broadband delivery of HD is probably a decade away.

[Barry_Green]

I think 2010 is an *optimistic* view of when half the households will have any sort of HD playback device. Currently approximately 95% of the households don't even have any sort of HD display device, much less a playback device.

People talk about how quickly the public is adopting HD, and I just don't see it. It took DVDs about 7 years to reach 50% household penetration. HD sets have been on the market for 7 years and they've barely penetrated 5%. Sure, the pace is accelerating, but it's *nothing* like the adoption rate for DVD was.

As such, I think standard-def is with us still for a long, long time to come. No doubt HD is better, and HD is making very strong inroads into professional production (TV series, high-end commercials, things like that).

My comments about broadband were designed around the idea that while nobody has a high-def DVD player or tape deck, and very very few have an HDTV, somewhere around half the population do have computers with broadband internet access and 1280x720 displays. If HD content is going to reach "the masses", right now broadband delivery is about the only way that could reach a significant portion of the population. I'm not saying it's a practical delivery option, I'm just saying that right now it's the only delivery option even on the table that could reach any sort of mass base.

[jonahlee]

I haven't seen any PCMCIA Card Readers for the macintosh, does anyone know of one that is compatible?

[pacificstreet]

Currently my thoughts on the end to end process are as follows :

I'll shoot on P2 (yes, despite my cost moanings !)

I then want a small field device that has the pcmcia reader and that I can put caddied HDDs in to copy to. Ideally, this would be a real bare bones device that could be powered by the same battery type as the camera.

The caddied drive will then mount into the NLE PC.

For archival storage, I'm looking towards something like the Quantam 80/160 DLT drive. This gives me a good £ per gig figure, good speed and enough capacity to have the entire project archived - sidestepping the having no source "tapes" issue in the process. Though by no means a foolproof medium, DLT has, touch wood, proven itself to be robust for other applications in the past for me.

Aside from the currently vapourware P2>HDD caddy, I can buy all of these things today, so I'm comfortable that by launch time I will be ready to go.

As regard the final delivery medium, that will be client driven but I'm expecting downrezzing to play a part for most projects for the foreseeable future !

On a broader note about HD, we were doing some tests today on a new plasma HD display. Running the HD content through it, there was almost a blase "mmm....its OK, nothing special" feeling. To be honest, it looked like a Digi-Beta connected to a broadcast CRT - very clean but not something that would make you sell your house to own. Of course, we then flicked an SD source into it, a standard DVB stream from a cable Set Top Box, and the HD suddenly looked breathtaking. And there's the rub....To properly view HD content, you need an HD monitor but then to really appreciate how good it is you have to put an SD signal into it !

This is going to present a challenge for broadcasters who have mixed content as consumers buying into HD will get the benefit from the HD channels but will have to put up with the SD channels looking awful on their new HD displays. As the SD content will be the dominant one for a good time to come, this might stall takeup from the consumers until the content balance shifts to HD.

In the short-term, cable operators might reap an amount of intial HD takeup through VOD content, with consumers using HD projectors to watch films whilst sticking to SD displays for regular content. HD only programming delivered via broadband to IP Set Top Boxes may also offer similar early takeup. For mass market acceptance though, the issue of how bad SD looks on HD sets might well be more of an issue than how good HD content does.

[PKraft]

Currently my thoughts on the end to end process are as follows :

I'll shoot on P2 (yes, despite my cost moanings !)

I then want a small field device that has the pcmcia reader and that I can put caddied HDDs in to copy to. Ideally, this would be a real bare bones device that could be powered by the same battery type as the camera.

The caddied drive will then mount into the NLE PC.

According to Barry Green no PCMCIA reader is necessary.
Just buy any 2.5" HD (up to 120 GB when the camera will be available). Put the HD into a portable enclosure (MomoBay for example) that features a USB2 interface.
Connect the USB2 port of the camera with the USB2 port of your portable HD and download the contents of your P2 cards onto your HD. That is all you have to do.

At home, connect your HDD to your NLE and start editing. Barry confirmed this workflow yesterday. If it works, it's marvellous.

For extra loooooong takes, use a compatible firstore.

Easy, isn't it? :thumbsup:

[JoshuaNitschke]

What type of monitor to get is a far more open question with HD. With NTSC, we always said "you need a CRT, LCDs aren't good enough." But with HD, CRT is probably the least prevalent monitor style! Even though it provides arguably the best picture, CRT is the least popular because of the massive size. So LCD, plasma, DLP, D-ILA... you've got to make your choice somewhere. And in that realm, the Dell starts looking awfully appealing. Plus it's a regular computer monitor as well, and a massive one.

On CGTalk.com, one of the founders of Hydraulx (http://www.hydraulx.com/), Colin Strause, was saying that for accurate color correctiong you really need CRTs. These guys output with theater projection in mind, so wouldn't you still want a CRT if you could afford one for HD?

Here is the thread. (http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=215601&page=1&pp=20)

I dunno if LCD monitors are as bad as he makes them out to be, or if it's just him thinking in an uber-professional state of mind.

[Rosestar]

While we ponder the future of HD delivery to the consumer, we should remember that we have been seeing "high definition" produced content since "I love Lucy" started shooting with three 35mm cameras in the Fifties. We see content produced on film and HD everyday. Almost all high end content is originated on "high definition" systems, either HDTV systems or film. Producing content on HD, will make for higher quality images no matter what the delivery system.