Is P2 & HVX Work Flow workable? One serious complaint. . . cost to workflow ratio. [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

RyanF

04-26-2005, 04:36 PM

I'm sorry but who shoots 16 min of footage? Anyone who shoots with a tiny, portable camera is on the move. I know for a fact I don't have the time to "dump" my footage to a hard disk plugged in on the side lines. If I did that I would miss the shot. In my line of work I can't afford to have the extra person on a shoot to administrate that either. With DV tapes now, I shoot - it's stored.

I need at least 2 hours of available media storage to make sure I get "the shot" and still charge my day rate. So, right now we're talking at least 8 4-gig P2 cards (or is it 16 cards that I would need?). Sorry, but I don't spend $16,000 - $24,000 on mini dv tapes in a year - or in 3 years for that matter! I could put up with one hour of fotage if I could dump the footage in the same time I could re-load a tape. But again, an item that would read the cards to a portable battary powered hard drive like an iPod (hint, hint) would probably cost another grand right? Even though lacie makes a "photo card reader" which reads 6 kinds of memory cards for less than $50!

If P2 is the only way to get HD video out of this camera, Panasonic has some serious re-thinking to do, at least in the pricing of these cards. By the way, how much is a 2 Gig camera memory stick? Maybe $500? So why are P2 cards so expensive? The solid state technology has been here for a while now people, look at your cell phone sim cards! And if low production is the reason for ridiculous prices, why doesn't Panny step it up and offer a P2 solution for more consumer-based products to offset the price?

And while I'm complaining, how about the location of the user buttons? I can't wait to hit that "fade to black" preset button while I'm holding the camera from underneath with my left hand for stability. I hope they at least include an optional "diable user buttons" option, or some kind of a lock button.

Everything else looks insane. . . but these are problems that make me rethink this camera. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say "I DON'T NEED HD, I WANT IT." But if the workflow doesn't "FLOW," I can't work.

Unfortunately it looks like my DVX will remain my camera next year. Maybe some price reductions in P2 and a new user buttons location for the HVX200A? I want it, make me need it.
-Ryan

www.urchinstudios.com
www.redsquaretv.com

stephenlnoe

04-26-2005, 04:56 PM

Why in the name of zeus's bunghole would you shoot DVCProHD instead of DVCPro50? I mean really? How would you propose to deliver the HD? There is only WMV and DivX unless you're transferring to film.

Who do you shoot for? TV? DVD?

Aaron Koolen

04-26-2005, 05:06 PM

Ryan, you've posted what 4 messages here, so I assume you haven't used the search feature yet? This subject has been beaten to death. If the replies and discussion that's been going on isn't enough for you you might as well forget about it, and not buy the HVX cause I don't think it'd going to change.

I am starting to get a little heated about these discussions. At first it was understandable cause we knew nothing about P2 workflow or how we'll acquire footage. Now we do, so it's almost not worth talking about.

WE KNOW FOR A FACT - that we are getting 16 minutes of HD footage (2 x 8GB cards). If that's not enough or too expensive then don't use P2 or don't get the HVX - simple.

WE KNOW FOR A FACT - that it will have a tape drive, miniDv. If longform in SD to tape only, isn't enough, then forget about the HVX

WE KNOW FOR A FACT - that there will be a hard drive solution (Probably at extra costs of course by a third part) so if you are scared about robustness/encumberance issues with a HDD, then you don't get the HVX.

If none of these things concern someone looking at this camera, they will buy it and be happy!

Aaron

RyanF

04-26-2005, 05:36 PM

Okay first of all, meatfreemedia sorry for my searchless post. I've read a lot and the costs are looking harder for me to work with for now, and it's dissapointing. Eat a steak, put your feet up and relax. I believe this forum is here for people like me trying to find answers and give input.

I've been getting confused about the DVC Pro50 & the DVCProHD formats from all the arguments in the forum. And it sounded like I would only be able to shoot HD to the P2 cards.

So stephenlnoe, the camera will shoot the DVCPro50 format to Mini DV tape? And to answer your question, for about a year I've been shooting invterviews, host wraps and action sports & b-roll footage for a few TV shows on Fuel TV.

Haakon

04-26-2005, 05:44 PM

So stephenlnoe, the camera will shoot the DVCPro50 format to Mini DV tape?
No, no, and... oh yeah, no. Have you read ANY of the 5 billion posts about this camera yet?

Let's review:

DVCPRO HD, DVCPRO 50 to the P2 card ONLY.

The only thing you can put on the MiniDV tape is DV itself. Now, there is the option to shoot in HD or 50 to the *P2* card and then downrez (make a SD dub) to the MiniDV tape, but then that would assume you'd have a P2 card to work with so you might as well just shoot in 50 to begin with and take advantage of the higher color sampling it gives you.

If you want HD, you have to go P2. End of story. To me (and many others), that's not a bad thing...

Bart_Boge

04-26-2005, 05:47 PM

1080p@24fps via DVCPRO100. For under $10k, all in.

Think about that for a minute.

Whining about button placement and recording times as "deal-breakers"--I can't even begin to understand it. If Jan herself delivered a goose laying solid gold eggs, you'd complain about how much feed it eats or the color of its feathers.

Not everyone uses DVX's for run 'n' gun shooting. For SD-only applications, it is a great value, or it least until the HVX hits the market. HVX recording @ DVCPRO50 will be the new SD medium of choice, and you can get 32 minutes of it on a pair of P2 cards. For longer, event-style shooting, hard drive capture options via FW will quickly surface.

This camera, as we understand it in its preproduction form, completely OVERDELIVERS for the price point, and is far above and beyond what we were expecting in a "DVX-200." No oversqueezed HDV to miniDV shenanigans here--true pro formats with very few compromises (fixed lens, no HD tape transport).

Say it again... 1080p@24fps for $10k ALL IN!!

16mm is dead. Independent filmmaking just got handed to the masses. If you don't get it, wow, keep using your DVX. And check back in a year when HVX-based indies are showing at Cannes. We'll still welcome you back with open arms, and we'll even have all the technical cheats for the HVX figured out by then.

ShannonRawls

04-26-2005, 06:02 PM

Why are you guys jumping on the guy?

All he's doing is saying what others are scared to, can't or won't.

If he came here starting a new posts "PRAISING" the camera, you wouldn't have a damn thing to say to him. You would reply RIGHT ON and JOIN THE CLUB and WELCOME TO DVXUSER and all that. You wouldn't jump down his throat saying "We have enough people praising about this camera, do your search and find others who speak highly of it".....so why critisize him for saying the opposite?

Just listen for a change... His grip is valid, and makes sense.

Just like him, I hope Panasonic DRAMATICALLY drops the price of P2, so I can add one to the arsenal. Otherwise, I have another ideal I will talk about when I have time to post.

- Shannon W. Rawls

xander76

04-26-2005, 06:29 PM

I think the main reason folks are jumping on the original poster is that this topic really has been done to death here, and people are tired of having the same conversation. Plus, the tone of much of the criticism of P2 is often righteous indignation shocked that anyone could work with a 16 minute limit because it is not the way that particular person works. (They also usually ignore the fact that you can get 40 minutes of 720p24.) Then, people who do work with smaller amounts of footage come in and are just as righteously indignant that P2 is a fine way to work. The whole thing can get tiring. especially when it happens over and over again.

The truth, IMNSHO, is that when the HVX200 is released, P2 will be a good production workflow for some uses and not as good for others. For almost all narrative uses, it will be great. For sitdown interview use, it will be all right but not ideal (one can imagine fairly easily downloading one card while using the other, but it will be much better if used at 40Mbps 720p24). For run-and-gun verite documentaries and event work, it will probably be somewhat painful, even if used at 720p24, which yields about 40 minutes of footage with both slots.

Note, though, that these problems will all get better over time. If we accept Panasonic's road map of capacity doubling yearly (which frankly seems slightly ambitious to me), then by late 2007 we're looking at about 64 minutes of 1080p/i or 160 minutes of 720p24 (2 x 32 cards). Those are manageable times for every application I mentioned above. In late 2008, you're looking at 128 minutes of 1080p/i or 320 minutes of 720p24, which seems pretty phenomenal to me.

Every camera has tradeoffs; the main tradeoff of the HVX200 is the promise of high quality HD and instant editability in exchange for long record times. For a narrative filmmaker, the P2 tradeoffs right now look like a great deal, but it might take a year or three before that tradeoff looks good to event shooters and documentarians as well.

RyanF

04-26-2005, 06:32 PM

Shannon, will you marry me?
She's right. And if Jan does read these posts, I don't want her to have to sift through 4 hours of reading the same thing - we love it. Which we do. But why NOT get it all? I've worked with about 20 other camera opps in my industry this year. All but 3 were on a DVX100 or DVX100A. I know they would all feel the same way about the buttons and the P2 cost.

We moved from the Sony PD150 almost overnight for 2 reasons, quality and cost. We'd do it again if the FX1 shot true 24p and had good color (maybe next year). We want HD capability for video shoots, but not at the price of P2. For that price I could have 3 DVX100A's, or 1 more DVX & who knows how may lights then have some serous leverage.

But I need only one to love. I need the portability and the price. This is no hobby film making $10,000 toy to me. Low budget TV is a living, and it would be wonderful if I could afford to be ahead of the game. I think a lot of shooters feel this way.

wabbit

04-26-2005, 06:33 PM

I think the point is the expense and other considerations of P2 media have been discuss pretty throughly in this forum.

If you are working on a level that cant afford this then stick with mini-dv. When you ready for your next camera upgrade buy the HVX, shoot mini-dv, and then when the HD doors start opening for you, you will be ready with a quick investvent in some P2 cards. SD is what we all be driving for many years to come, HD is a Porche and if you can't afford it right now then deal with that reality.

The idea that HD should be affordable to everyone shows a lack of understanding of the technology involved. To even get this under $10,000 solution is a fricking gift from Panasonic. Plan on the other big guys rushing to meet this solid state solution as it drives down the price of HD.

Panasonic has made two major advances here, true HD at a price the average video professional can afford (honestly, if it had been in the $20,000 range it would still be a realistic choice for many working professionals). The second advance (SDX8000 already started this but still) is the move to solid state recording, which is the future. It's more stable, cheaper (in the long run), and you get almost instant loading of footage. This is the start of the revolution we have been waiting for.

If you disagree with this, then Sony and JVC have their offerings.

RyanF

04-26-2005, 06:52 PM

Sorry one more thing. I don't think many of you mad at my critisizms realize that there is a whole class of on-the-go shooters these days that rely on thier one and only camera to make a living. These hand held cameras are our ideal tools. We live and have jobs becuase of them. Size, price and workflow are all obsticals for us.

Trading time in editing for production is insane. When things happen, they don't wait for your camera to reaload. Our interviews are captured in the field, taking time to put a lav on someone is all the time I have. Post can wait for an up-res if it needs to in my world. I think most people who buy this hand-held class of camera don't buy these cameras as a second camera. I think this is the workflow for many of us who streach our budgets for these cameras.

Right now P2 makes the HVX look like less taxes for the rich or a good price on a second car. Hand-held cameras fuel the working, blue collar camera man class. If Panny wants it to sell, I think that is the issue here.

If the P2 futer holds what they promise, doubling capacity of storage, I just hope the price doesn't follow.

wabbit

04-26-2005, 07:19 PM

Well, the working class camera man (of which my partner and I are part of) might have to wait longer to afford true HD. What do you need to shoot HD for anyways? Those customers that demand or want HD can pay more for it. Meanwhile the expense for us to deliver HD just got cheaper. How is it we are not winning?

The P2 cards are going to be hotswapable, meaning unlike tape, you can keep recording non-stop until the battery dies (plug it in the wall and you go forever). You just have to have mulitple cards and the ability to quickly upload the footage to a HDD (laptop with external HDD should do). Again, we win. If you are run and gun and can't upload footage to HDD quickly, then solid state is not for you right now (maybe someday). Meanwhile Panasonic did include a mini-dv tape drive to appeal to people like this.

As far as the camcorder size determining the price point????? The new JVC is a shoulder mount but in the "palmcorder price range." Shoulder mount/palmcorder is an aethetic relating to style and features, not price. They could have thrown all the features in a bigger shoulder mount package but I think they did enough research to decided this form factor would appeal to a larger customer base. In fact, I believe Panasonic plans on coming out with a cheaper end (something like sub-$20,000) shoulder mount 2/3 chip HD camera next year or two.

The working blue collar guy does not need HD right now and while we are working towards a time when you will need an HD solution, Panasonic is taking bold steps like this to drive the price down. Sony, JVC, and Canon are going to have to rush to catch up and drive the competition even more (we win :))or keep trying to push this HDV junk (IMHO) onto professionals.

Jan_Crittenden

04-27-2005, 11:40 AM

[QUOTE=RyanF]I'm sorry but who shoots 16 min of footage? Anyone who shoots with a tiny, portable camera is on the move. I know for a fact I don't have the time to "dump" my footage to a hard disk plugged in on the side lines. If I did that I would miss the shot. In my line of work I can't afford to have the extra person on a shoot to administrate that either. With DV tapes now, I shoot - it's stored.

So Ryan, instead of shooting to the P2 cards, why not take the firewire out to a hard drive and you can have continuous recording. We have a partner that is developing just the perfect product to be able to handle DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO HD. You could move to the HVX as a serious upgrade to your DVX and as time movels along the HD is available to you.

And while I'm complaining, how about the location of the user buttons? I can't wait to hit that "fade to black" preset button while I'm holding the camera from underneath with my left hand for stability. I hope they at least include an optional "diable user buttons" option, or some kind of a lock button.

The user buttons are programmable for a number of things and yes you can set them up to do nothing. Some of the functions you assign them to are only functions when the camera is in a certain mode, like Shot Marker and it can actually be undone if you made a mistake. Program the buttons that are like the Fade to black to the button that isn't near where your fingers are resting. If this is unworkable then I guess you will have to purchase something else.

Everything else looks insane. . . but these are problems that make me rethink this camera. I think I speak for a lot of people when I say "I DON'T NEED HD, I WANT IT." But if the workflow doesn't "FLOW," I can't work.

It may not work for you at this point and frankly I haven't found but a small percentage that got it from the very first couple of words describing the workflow. You are not alone in the first stages. But eventually people do start to see how the workflow does make sense. I suggest you keep thinking as you might find that you can make it work. And if not the cards, the hard drive.

Best regards,

Jan

Zig_Zigman

04-27-2005, 11:51 AM

Ryan, you may want to stick with tape, and the only HD-ish options with tape at the moment are the Sony or the upcoming JVC. The HVX may not be for you.

But I suspect you'll get one anyway ;-)

reservoir

04-27-2005, 11:57 AM

13 Converstations About One Thing

.....Describes this thread!!

Forget DVCPRO and its incarnations alltogether. I'll just wait for the F900 and Genesis to drop in price....say....below 10K. Then I'll buy that and make my movie. I might be waiting around 20 years....but by that time, I should have a great script ready. :huh:
~reservoir~

ShannonRawls

04-27-2005, 12:08 PM

Shannon, will you marry me?
She's right.

Sorry, I'm already married and I ain't Gay. My wife wouldn't like that remark! *smile*

- MISTER. Shannon W. Rawls

Knock Out Films

04-27-2005, 05:59 PM

Barry_Green

04-27-2005, 06:09 PM

Yes it confirms that a hard disk solution will be coming. FireStore is already working on it. As to what their release schedule will be, that's up to them.

And they're not necessarily the only ones working on such a solution.

By the time the camera's out, I expect there to be more than one alternative.

Heck, even when the camera comes out, you can still record HD immediately, even without a P2 card, by streaming directly to your laptop/desktop. So you can definitely expect that there will be hard disk recording as an option.

Rosestar

04-27-2005, 07:02 PM

Since reading all these posts it still remains clear. This camera is not for everyone. I do not believe that this camera was designed as a replacemnt for the "run & gun" shooter. IMO the target market is the independent filmmaker. To me, this camera may be my dreams come true, a viable alternative to 16mm film. Compared to the cost of 16mm cameras, film stock, processing and transfer, this camera is a bargin.

Get the camera that fits your needs and lets all make great content

RyanF

04-27-2005, 07:11 PM

[QUOTE]

So Ryan, instead of shooting to the P2 cards, why not take the firewire out to a hard drive and you can have continuous recording. We have a partner that is developing just the perfect product to be able to handle DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO HD. You could move to the HVX as a serious upgrade to your DVX and as time movels along the HD is available to you.

Good idea but I thought it would only work to an "intelegent device?" I know this is getting nit-picky but I work in action sports. If I'm on a snowboard for the day this gets kind of tricky. Portability is huge. In fact other than price, that is the other problem P2 represents. Right now with my DVX I can spend 8 hours on a mountain with 4 good sized battaries and I'm good to go. Figure I shoot 4 hours of HD to be transfered to film, how many P2 cards am I gonna need? Idealy, this is what I'd like to have the ability to do.

A friend of mine shot the new sony prosumer camera all over the world this winter. Sure it's 1080i but for not too much you can get 1080i transfered to film and it's at the production companies cost. Sure we'd love to use the HVX, it just needs to work. Fuel TV (an action sports network that airs the shows I help to make) is getting larger and so are many other niche TV networks. Cameras like these get the job done and at the low budget they need to meet. My DVX will work great for a few more years I'm sure, but to have Beta quality from a mountain top (all the way to the bottom) will be a dream come true.

[QUOTE]
The user buttons are programmable for a number of things and yes you can set them up to do nothing.

Phew!

[QUOTE] I haven't found but a small percentage that got it from the very first couple of words describing the workflow. You are not alone in the first stages. But eventually people do start to see how the workflow does make sense. I suggest you keep thinking as you might find that you can make it work.

We all have iPods. I'd store all my songs for a day to my computer to have 20 gigs of recording time. Work it out with Apple! iPods are light and everyone already has one! Or make a P2 card reader that will dump to an iPod at least. Are iPods considered "intelligent?"

Thanks again,
Ryan

RyanF

04-27-2005, 07:14 PM

Sorry, I'm already married and I ain't Gay. My wife wouldn't like that remark! *smile*

- MISTER. Shannon W. Rawls

Sorry bout that one big guy!
=P

Barry_Green

04-27-2005, 08:34 PM

Or make a P2 card reader that will dump to an iPod at least.
The camera can already do that.

Zig_Zigman

04-27-2005, 10:23 PM

how fast are ipod drives? You'd need a 80 gig, wouldn't you?

As silly as it sounds, anything associated with "ipod" is marketing heat these days.

RyanF

04-28-2005, 01:14 AM

The camera can already do that.

Holy iPod Barr-man! are you serious? got any info on that or can you point me in the right direction to find more?

need to add: Can it do that in the field?

Barry_Green

04-28-2005, 01:59 AM

You can download any content from a P2 card down to any off-the-shelf USB2 drive (of which the iPod qualifies).

While it remains up in the air as to whether you could shoot directly to the ipod, what is confirmed is that you can dub to the ipod. Yes you could do it in the field. Just put the camera in "dub" mode and tell it to dub to either the onboard DV tape (which would make a downrezzed DV version of the files on the card) or tell it to dub to an external hard disk. It'll copy the data files off to the ipod, thus freeing up your P2 cards for more shooting.

PKraft

04-28-2005, 03:42 AM

You can download any content from a P2 card down to any off-the-shelf USB2 drive (of which the iPod qualifies).

In simple words, I connect my external Powerbook 2.5" HD (100 GIG capacity) to the HVX 200 and offload from the two P2 cards any time during the day. The HD plus its casing is smaller and lighter than my iPod, btw. Would not use an iPod anyway as the iPod's 1.8"HD is not as robust as its 2.5" sibling for Powerbooks and other laptops.
And only if very long HD takes are required, I have to take a Firestore.

Barry that sound verrry good,
Thank you for the enlightenment.