Who Needs P2 when you got DR-DV100

[sonisfear]

http://www.focusinfo.com/products/firestore/fs-3.htm

"The DR-DV100 HD will provide approximately four-and-a-half hours of uninterrupted record time of HD content, making it ideal for field applications such as news, and documentaries. Users can record to both tape and disk simultaneously, creating an instant back up recording for archival purposes."

My question is what advantage does solid state P2 cards have over good ole hard drives. The dr-DV100 which stores 4 1/2 hours of HD Mpeg2 video is about the price of one 4Gb p2 which stores 4 minets.

Who thought of this p2 solution anyway...

The DR-DV100 will attach to the cam no belts or lost hot shoe slots.

And it will record to HDV or DV simultaneously to Tape. Back up solution
HVX200 can't do that.

I can't figure out what benifit there is to have P2 cards in an age where Mass is the gas. Especially when you you are offering a less compressed file format...

What was Panasonic thinking?

[Daniel Moore]

My question is what advantage does solid state P2 cards have over good ole hard drives

Thats exactly what I was wondering. I've heard about its durability, but who is planning to recklessly throw around their 6000 dollar cameras anyway? Pretty much anything you do that will damage a hard drive will first damage the lens or viewfinder or something. In terms of noise, I don't think that that is something that couldn't be dealt with when using a hard drive. Some sort of 5 dollar foam padding would clear that issue right up.

[harlan]

HDV is a highly compressed step up from the DV format, it is no way comparable to the high end HD formats. The HVX200 allows you to record in a high-end HD format unlike the JVC. Both cameras have their advantages, but insinuating that the two are similar in terms of recording their HD formats is completely absurd. HDV is a very low-end HD format.

HDV is really a format for event videographers & those wanting a slight step up from the DV format. The HVX200 on the other hand, is designed for filmmakers and as a "B" cam for VariCam production, but it also offers the opportunity to shoot MiniDV or DVCPRO-50.

[sonisfear]

So what are you going to record that "B" roll on? Your going to swap cards every 4 minets and dump to hard drive? Your production has that type of time. When Hard drives are so quick to work with? But then you have another problem what portable hard drive can handle 100mbps video stream.

If you had this kind of dough and time to waste on your production then you can afford to rent another Varicam.

[sonisfear]

I am hoping that Panasonic reads this and make some re-adjustments to their design strategy and incorporate either and better compression system that goes to tape, put a large transport in the cam so that it actually can load Pro50/HD cassette and/or a innovative hard drive system that incorporates a less-compressed PRo50/ProHD system.

I own two DVX100 and they have been sweet to me and if Pana gets their act together I will continue to buy their products.

Panasonic please learn from Sony's mistakes. You invented the the mini DV Cassette and the DVCPRO cassettes why jump so far ahead off a system that has worked for us for years.

[ChuckS]

HDV is a highly compressed step up from the DV format, it is no way comparable to the high end HD formats. The HVX200 allows you to record in a high-end HD format unlike the JVC. Both cameras have their advantages, but insinuating that the two are similar in terms of recording their HD formats is completely absurd. HDV is a very low-end HD format.

HDV is really a format for event videographers & those wanting a slight step up from the DV format. The HVX200 on the other hand, is designed for filmmakers and as a "B" cam for VariCam production, but it also offers the opportunity to shoot MiniDV or DVCPRO-50.
In the context of your comment you are couching the HVX200 with high end HD and stating that because the HDVPro from JVC is highly compressed it’s a consumer camera. That is not true. The HVX200 recording to P2 is an 8bit HIGHLY compressed image. HD’s bit rate is 192MB/sec [big B]; the DVCProHD codec compresses the image stream to less than 100Mb/sec [little b]. Its more of a question which compression do you want to use DVCProHD or Mpeg2.

If you use DVCProHD you can edit directly in FCPHD, if you record in HDV you can use the Cineform AspectHD codec and edit in PPro 1.5 where I would be willing to bet once they are both output to D5 you would be hard pressed to tell the difference. It’s going to depend largely on the quality of detail from each camera.

The image quality from the JVC was very impressive; the image quality from the HVX does not exist. I have little doubt that the image quality will be excellent but I wouldn’t be too quick to relegate the JVC as a slight step up from DV. (IMHO)

[sonisfear]

I like the function that the HVX has (if I understand correctly) that it can transfer data from cards to standard external USB hard drives via usb port without any fancy portable processor.

I wish that these pana or JVC would embed the dos processor in the cams so you could record directly to noraml USB/firewire drives.

This would be crazy savings.

[scharky]

Does nobody realize that hooking a Hard drive (intelligent) to the HVX can also be done? So what are you trying to say?
As far as durablitiy, P2 vs a HDD, there is no competition. Drop a P2 card, nothing happens, drop a HDD, say bye bye. HDD will also wear out over time, and will use more battery power. I'm not trying to compare P2 storage to HDD, but as far as durablity, there is no contest. However, for longer applications, a HDD or laptop connected to HVX will give you as much footage as you have hard drive space.
And chuck, I agree with you, which compression do you want to use, one that is 19mbps or 100mpbs. 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0? As far as capturing the data from the camera, and not color correcting or doing anything with the footage, assuming the exposure is right on, I'm sure that the footage side by side is very comparable, with little to no action. But when you get things on the screen moving, and you want to color correct, or even adjust exposure slightly, which codec will hold up better? I think we all know the answer to that question.

[thisiswells]

Guys, Guys, Guys..

A Firestore will be available for the HVX200 and for about the same price of a P2 card. It
will have at least a 60GB harddrive that will hold around 150minutes of 720p24 HD in the
Panasonic DVCPRO-HD codec. The company that makes the Firestore is Focus Enhancements
and they are a partner with Panasonic to develop a Firestore for the HVX200.

As our Italian-American friends would say, "fahget about it".

[RatVega]

What you are wishing for is unnecessary. A FireStore or similar drive does essentially the same thing with the more portable 2.5 inch drives. The problem is in the real time data rates. Maybe you should be wishing for a mini-SATA RAID with a FW800 interface or something even faster. The only way to get 'normal' (ATA) drives into the picture is with non-realtime transfer as Panasonic is offering - the drives are just too slow for the larger formats. An 'embedded dos processor' wouldn't provide any benefit.

[sonisfear]

[QUOTE=thisiswells]Guys, Guys, Guys..

A Firestore will be available for the HVX200 and for about the same price of a P2 card. It
will have at least a 60GB harddrive that will hold around 150minutes of 720p24 HD in the
Panasonic DVCPRO-HD codec.

Do you have any white papers on this info?

[ddh]

I thought the spin rates of most hard disks (7200) was not fast enough for a 100 meg. transfer?

[Barry_Green]

No, the spin rates are easily within the reach of 100 megabits. 100 megabits is under 13 megabytes per second. Most 3.5" 5400rpm drives can sustain that rate now (can't they?)

The smaller the hard drive, the slower its maximum transfer rate. 2.5" laptop hard drives can't get nearly as fast as 3.5" desktop drives (although, many 2.5" drives are plenty fast enough for 100mbs data). The smallest drives, the little 1.8" drives as used in the ipod, can't get nearly fast enough.

The key statistic you're looking for isn't rpm's, it's minimum sustained write speed.

The FireStore FS-4, as now constructed, maxxes out at about 40mbps. They'll have to design a new unit, around a fast-enough drive, to accomodate the full DVCPRO-HD data stream.

[stephenvv]

Thats exactly what I was wondering. I've heard about its durability, but who is planning to recklessly throw around their 6000 dollar cameras anyway? Pretty much anything you do that will damage a hard drive will first damage the lens or viewfinder or something. In terms of noise, I don't think that that is something that couldn't be dealt with when using a hard drive. Some sort of 5 dollar foam padding would clear that issue right up.

You are mistaken - the difference between solid state (P2) and hard disk (magnetic heads and platters) is not "foam padding". You can test this yourself with a external 2.5 drive and a flash drive of some kind. Start recording a stream of video data using an app the watches for dropped frames. Shake vigourously. Bump around. The difference will be quite clear. Or listen to a 40 GB iPod while skateboarding.

That's why the ThinkPad T41p I'm typing this on has an "airbag" for the drive - which pauses it when shock or movement reaches a certain level - it pauses recording. Devices like the firestore etc. need huge buffers, shock protection and more to maintain recording and are very vulnerable to just being dropped etc.

There is no comparison between rugged, reliable recording between solid state and moving disc. No with todays technology.

[Zim]

HDV is a highly compressed step up from the DV format, it is no way comparable to the high end HD formats. The HVX200 allows you to record in a high-end HD format unlike the JVC. Both cameras have their advantages, but insinuating that the two are similar in terms of recording their HD formats is completely absurd. HDV is a very low-end HD format.

HDV is really a format for event videographers & those wanting a slight step up from the DV format. The HVX200 on the other hand, is designed for filmmakers and as a "B" cam for VariCam production, but it also offers the opportunity to shoot MiniDV or DVCPRO-50.

Some people might say HDV is not a step up from DV

[thisiswells]

Harlan personally owns two Panasonic Varicam's and one Sony Cinealta...
I think he knows the difference.

[harlan]

lol... :)

There's a dramatic difference in quality between HDV and DVCPRO-HD.

Regardless of semantics or opinions, a step up from DV is exactly what HDV is and was meant to be. It's not designed to be a high-end HD format, it's designed to be a mid-range component bridging the gap between DV & HD. The very name itself indicates that (HD-V or H-DV). :)

I wasn't trying to downplay HDV at all, it's a great format, but it's most assuredly not comparable to the high-end HD products. The closest thing to the high-end HD products in the pricerange of HDV gear is the Panasonic HVX. Does that mean you can't do kick ass looking projects in HDV?? No, of course not.

[harlan]

If you want to see something impressive though, feed the Sony HDV or JVC GY-HD100's output to the HD-SDI input of a rented AJ-HD1200 DVCPRO-HD deck. You'll get fascinating looking images that are visually superior to the HDV recorded in-camera, and you'll end up with footage much easier to edit with since you're not dealing with GOP & mpeg2 issues.

I'm sure you'll be able to feed the HVX into the same deck as well - but it ain't testable yet. :(

PS - I'm not recommending that for everyday use, but it's great to have the option when you need the extra oomph in quality.

[thisiswells]

There would be zero advantage in sending HVX200 output to a HD-1200A besides
longer record lengths afforded though the use of EX tapes. Right??

[wabbit]

P2 will operate at very low and high temps. You can shake it around, no effect. There is no problem with age (except after 30,000 inserts). And P2 does not get fragmented and then fail (thus allowing for the deletion of bad takes in camera). I have worked with several HDD/solid state audio recorders. If the HDD gets fragmented or you record for long run times you can often get disk errors. With age, HDD become more and more unstable (who hasn't had a disk on their computer fail?).

It's great that you will hopefully be able to use a HDD solution with the HVX but give me the reliability of solid state ever time. It will take some time for P2 to be affordable at reasonable run times but that is why Panasonic should be congratulated for it's forward thinking.

[harlan]

There would be zero advantage in sending HVX200 output to a HD-1200A besides
longer record lengths afforded though the use of EX tapes. Right??

Pretty much just longer record times & the "advantage" of having a 'hardcopy' of the footage.

[Zig_Zigman]

Harlan, what's the rental rate on a AJ-HD1200 DVCPRO-HD deck?

[Zig_Zigman]

Hmm it's about $450.00 a day....so you'd have a hd1200 deck on the shoot, right? And you'd run a firewire or SDI input directly from the camera to the deck (not using the tape mechanism?) and then you have your footage converted on the spot to dvcproHD?

That would be enough to seal the deal for me to buy a Z1 at Cinegear Expo - if I have it right.

[thisiswells]

ZIG,

I'm not sure what interface you'd use from a Z1 camera to HD-1200A deck.
The camera does not have HD-SDI outputs, it has only analog component.

The deck has HD-SDI, but to my knowledge does not have analog component.
You'd probably need a converter from AJA video to go from component to HD-SDI...
What does that add to the price?? I believe the HD-SDI (not to be confused with SDI)
converter that does just that is $1600. I would figure than into your cost estimates.

I don't think you could (well, you can't) run a Firewire from a Z1 to a DVCPro-HD deck.
They're incompatible in that regard. The deck rents for $600.00 where I've looked.

[Zig_Zigman]

So just shoot to tape and upcovert going from an hdv deck to a hd-1200 deck? That's better, except I have to figure out what I'm talking about so I can ask a post-house if they have the right kind of equipment.

[harlan]

Yeah wells, you'd have to use an A2D convertor like AJA or so.

[harlan]

So just shoot to tape and upcovert going from an hdv deck to a hd-1200 deck? That's better, except I have to figure out what I'm talking about so I can ask a post-house if they have the right kind of equipment.

I may be misunderstanding you, my apologies if I am, but the whole point of shooting directly into an HD-1200 is to avoid the HDV format altogether by recording straight to DVCPRO-HD.

As far as post would go, you would just be editing DVCPRO-HD. The footage would be DVCPRO-HD, not as good as that shot on a high-end DVCPRO-HD camera, but it would cetainly have advantages over HDV (both in terms of quality and useability).

You obviously wouldn't be doing this often on account of expense - otherwise you wouldn't be purchasing an HDV camera. It does, however, allow you to make the occasional jump up in quality for your film or whatever.

anyways... just some ideas to hopefully help.

harlan