DVCPro50 - A diamond amidst a sea of pearls?

[Daniel Moore]

With all the talk that gets thrown around here about compression, this little gem seems to have been lost somewhere along the way. As quoted from the recent article here at dvxuser.com:

Panasonic also offers a low-compression (3.3:1) high-color-resolution standard-definition recording format, DVCPRO50. DVCPRO50 is approximately equivalent to Digital Betacam as a recording medium, and offers 4:2:2 color sampling and very mild compression, for exceptionally clean, rich standard-definition recording
...which will

make for superb DVDs

My question (or three)
1) Is anyone buying this camera because of this capability, and what would you think of a cheaper non-hd panasonic camera with just DVCPRO25 and DVCPRO50?
2) With P2, does DVCPRO50 have the capability to not record wasted frames during 24p mode, or does the fact that its DVCPro50 basically mean a constant 50 Mbps no matter what?

thanks -daniel

[EyeCenter]

I am very interested in the DVCPro50 format. I have no need for HD output and delivery right now. I am more interested in being able to provide richer video images on DVD. If Pana really delivers on this product I would buy it for current use of DVCPro50 and future use of DVCPro HD. The problem I see with "inexpensive" DVCPro 50 is storage. To equip a camera with a 50 Mbs tape transport will not be cheap, so that leaves you with P-2 (expensive right now) or HDD (other drawbacks for field use).
We'll see what Pana actually provides, and what the images look like, but for what I do, I'm also going to need a satisfactory acquisition/storage solution for DVCPro 50.

[stephenlnoe]

This is the draw for me too..

[Spiff]

It will be interesting to see how 720p 30 compares to DVCPRO50, considering they have the same data rate, similar codecs, but different resolutions. To get a significant improvement in image qualtiy, one would expect that shooting 1080p 30 @ 100 Mbps would be required.

[bilgami]

BiLGaMi Video Productions :thumbsup:

I dont understand why they put dvc50 in the cam if you cant shoot onto tape with it. If p2 cards are used people want hd on it cuz of the cost and the tape deck only pays mini so really the only options are mini and hd on p2.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

[Hayden_Rivers]

Because compressing to miniDV makes your footage suck.

[Daniel Moore]

It will be interesting to see how 720p 30 compares to DVCPRO50, considering they have the same data rate, similar codecs, but different resolutions.

I guess that is the true test then: if you can live with the greater compression of the 720p, then of course go for the HD.

What I want to know is what makes good footage for greenscreen effects? Is it compression, resolution, color space.... does anybody do green/bluescreen effects with miniDV?

[dillont]

I do ...

And let me tell you - its mighty hard to pull a good key off of footage shot with miniDV. The compression of miniDV is 5.1, and uses the 4.1.1 compression.

It can be done, with the right software in hand. I've pulled a very good key using Digital Fusion which blew me away. I'd never been able to pull a near perfect key from a miniDV source before.

4.2.2 schemes would be much easier to pull a key off of simply because the samples of color are twice as much as in 4.1.1. See below for more technical information regarding color sampling:

from: http://www.dvcollections.com/support_dvcompress.html
"[4.1.1] is a ratio of luminance sampling vs. color sampling. The initial number – 4 – refers to the baseline for sampling. In this case, all digital formats sample luminance at 13.5Mhz. If you see a format with color sampling rates of 4:4:4, you’ll know that there is nothing missing from the color compared to the luminance. 4:2:2 sampling is used by many “professional” formats and in the analog world that would include Betacam SP. 4:2:2 color sampling in the digital video world typically is used for DV50 formats (hence the 50 in the name). We’ll cover more on this in a moment.
...
It’s also very important that you apply the proper amount of light to your subject – and if you’re using a green or blue screen, make sure you create enough separation and use a reverse key or backlight. Blue or green “oversplash” on clothing or hair can ruin all attempts at creating an appropriate matte, especially on 4:1:1 signals."

Dillon

[jonahlee]

I am very interested in the quality on this. For DVD Production for studios, most of the QC departments want Digibeta, but can't seem to tell the difference if you shoot ona DVCPRO 50 Camera, as it passes all the QC tests. I am wondering what the quality will look like, and if it will be good enough to pass studio QC for DVD production.

[ddh]

We tried a green screen test with the DVX some time back for a shoot but had to pull out the betacam sp to do it.

[Barry_Green]

The DVCPRO-50 codec delivers quality about on par with DigiBeta. A little less, but definitely in the same class.

Note: that is not to say that a 1/3" CCD camera like the HVX is going to deliver footage that rivals a $50,000 DigiBeta camera! It's only saying that at the lowest level, the compression and recording format will deliver comparable results.

So for chroma keying, the DVCPRO-50 mode should provide for extremely better keying than we've ever had on DV. You have twice the color and half the compression (okay, not half, but certainly much milder) so you'll have cleaner source images with much cleaner edges. For DVD production, DVCPRO-50 should provide significantly better-looking DVDs.

[stephenlnoe]

The DVCPro50 on the HVX is the real story (for delivery). HD doesn't mean a thing if you can't deliver it. The DVCPro50 is useful right now.

I suspect, by the time HD really comes on line the P2 solution will have a much broader array of media. For now DVCPro50 is the star in 16x9 422 color space.

Barry (or others), How much footage in DVCPro50 will fit on the 16GB P2 solution? 40 Minutes? 60 Minutes?

[Aaron Koolen]

DVCPro50 is called that cause of the 50Mbps bitrate. DVCProHD is 100Mbps, so you get twice the record time on DVCPro50 than you do on DVCProHD, so the answer is 32minutes on 2x8GB cards. One thing I'm not sure of is if DVCPro50 handles multiple framerates, and if, when recording in 24p, you can same some bandwidth. I'll have to research that one.

Aaron

[stephenlnoe]

That's just it Aza. SD 422 should be what most people are looking at this camera for now (IMO). The man has a point. Not many people will be willing to get it for HD with the limited P2 (16GB). HD is coming but not here yet (no delivery format to end users). SD is here now and will be here. Panasonic has made an affordable 422 camera with 16x9. This trumps DVX100 big time and that fact alone (422) makes it far superior to the DVX100 and worth 2.5X the price.

SD 422 DVCPro50 is where it's at right now. What is the price of the next camera that shoots SD422 DVCPro50 in Panasonic's lineup (and native 16x9 chips to boot)?

[Jack_Felis]

I'm just as excited for DVCPRO25 myself, whether it offers anything over MiniDV or not, it's different. But yeah, DVCPRO50 will be useful for lots of stuff and for lots of people.

[Aaron Koolen]

SD 422 DVCPro50 is where it's at right now. What is the price of the next camera that shoots SD422 DVCPro50 in Panasonic's lineup (and native 16x9 chips to boot)?

From what I can tell from their site it's the AJ-SDC905 at about US$19K.

Aaron

[stephenlnoe]

Do you see? The HD is gravy as of 2005. SD is where this camera will shine in 2005. When an HD delivery format get's decided on then this camera will be a player as well.

These facts make this camera a camera for today and tomorrow. It is a stroke of Genius to put SD422 DVCPro50's codec in this camera. There would be no reason not to get this camera (unless the picture quality sucks).

[RyanF]

So, you do need the P2 cards for HD? Why not make 2 cameras? One for 6 grand at standard res and one 6 grand at HD res. Same price as buying enough P2 cards with for HVX right? At least that way when your shooting standard your not putting hours on your HD camera. It's only solid state technology in a new shape. Why is it so damn expensive? Why not just make the camera shoot to DVCPro tapes?

FIX THE PRICES

[stephenlnoe]

First RyanF, If you don't have 10K (retail) then you can't play. What I mean by can't play is that if you get the camera alone you're going to be shooting miniDV, albeit better than the DVX100a in theory.

You've got to get something to fill those P2 slots to get anything better (as it's been reported) than miniDV (DVCPro25)

DVCPro shells are:

1. expensive
2 expensive
3 did I mention expensive?

P2 is the solution, but I believe it is the solution for SD right now. HD's datarate requirements will need to have some innovation for expanded storage to make it fit into the old Time/Resources/Money triangle.

[Barry_Green]

Why is it so damn expensive? Why not just make the camera shoot to DVCPro tapes?

FIX THE PRICES
You are kidding, right? Either that, or you just don't understand.

Why not just shoot to DVCPRO tapes? Because a DVCPRO-HD tape mechanism, just the tape deck portion alone, costs over $15,000.

So if you were willing to buy the camera at $21,000, you could probably have it on tape.

By going to P2, they got the price to under $6,000.

[Daniel Moore]

Hmmm, I think he has a point though. If a DVCPro50 tape deck is less than say... 4000 dollars, that would save the cost of the P2 cards, but then we are back were we started with tape instead of this futuristic medium P2.

I definately think Panasonic made the right choice here, because they are basically giving us everything (with DVCPro50 being the star). I just don't see how hard drives are any worse, but thats a different thread (or ten).

Thanks dillont for the info on greenscreening!

[Aaron Koolen]

You could stick a DVCPro tape mech in there (Which I think Jan has said is about US$6400 and not $4k) and forget P2, but there's one important point for me...

tape blows the proverbial goat. I have been waiting for years for a camera in my price range that does away with tape. Imagine no capture times .......Imagine it.....I mean that is sheer heaven. Then imagine it in a tiny form factor that slots nicely into the back of your camera. No leads, no HDD to lug around and risk head crashes....it just gets better. Sure I want longer record times - no doubt about it - but I wouldn't sacrifice P2 for them.

Aaron