Can somebody explain me this?

[dust]

I'm from spain, so living a pal country, i'll be getting a pal hvx. As far as i know with the NTSC version you can shoot 720/60p and with the pal version just 720/50p.

Since this is High definition, what is the technical reason why the pal version can't shoot 720/60p? that is 10 more frames per second, really useful for slow motions...

Sorry if i am asking something stupid, i'm just trying to learn, and this has been buggering me for a while. Since the data flow rate in dvcpro hd is 100mb/s, and this is in HD i just can't see why the pal version can't record this framerate.

Thanks for your answers!

[caseyhayward]

Someone else is going to answer this better than me I am sure but as I understand it, the 60fps 50fps divide has to do with power in USA vs. Europe. US power supplies run at 60hz (cycles) and euro at 50 so to sync up frames and not get flicker from lights etc. the cams run in variations of 60 and 50 respectively.

Sorry for my rudimentary electrical engineering skills. :undecided

[Barry_Green]

In 720 mode, 50p/60p isn't so much for slow motion as it is to provide the "reality" look. Shooting 720/50p will give you a picture with the same motion characteristics as when you watch normal PAL television (except better, but that's beside the point).

PAL countries are looking at adopting 720/50p as their broadcast standard. They are choosing 50 because it provides for an easy upconversion from old PAL broadcasts and programs. PAL is 50 interlaced fields per second, so setting the broadcast standard at 720/50p will make it very easy to play existing programming. If they chose 60p, it'd be a nightmare to integrate old programming (plus existing video cameras) into the new digital broadcasts.

Now, as far as I know, Panasonic hasn't yet specified whether the European version of the camera will or won't have 60p. We know it will have 50p, but we also know it'll have more frame rates than that. Maybe it will have 60p for slow mo. Remains to be seen.

[dust]

Thanks, that make sense.
Anyway as you said other times (Barry) is better to have a feature and not use it than not having it and need it, so i hope that panasonic integrates that framerate into the pal version.

Thanks for your answers guys.

[dust]

Ok, reading through the "DVCPro HD good for Aquisistion, But not Post?" post i understand now what you say. So 720/60p and 50p is going to give you that "reality look" and is not meant to be a frame rate that you use to achieve slow motions.

So... if you are shooting 720/24p (25p in Europe) and you want to have a nice slow motion scene wich frame rate would you use?

i might be asking something really stupid, but now i really don't know!

[Barry_Green]

Well, no, you were right also. The thing is, if you're using a slower frame rate (such as 25p) then yes, 50p (or even better, 60p) would make for perfect slow motion.

If you're using 50p for "reality", then slow mo isn't really an option (well, I guess you could maybe use 60p for a *tiny* slow-mo effect!) But if you're using 25p for a film look, then shooting slow-mo in 50p would give excellent, frame-accurate slow mo, and 60p (if it's an option on the European camera) would give even a little slower slow-mo look.

[dust]

Ok, thanks again for your answer and let's hope that panasonic includes it on the pal version, if just only for being an slow motion framerate when you are shooting 24/25p...

So, coming back to the main question and to make it clear, there is definitely not a technical barrier that stops panasonic from add that framerate to the pal version right?

[Aaron Koolen]

No, but even if they don't, 50fps will be pretty good. You've got twice as slow if you want, but with the 60 you get 2.4x as slow. Not *that* much difference.

Aaron

[Barry_Green]

I can't speak as to whether there'd be a technical barrier or not. We assume it's possible, yes. But I don't know if there's any reason why it wouldn't be possible...

[mr._guiyotinne]

Qué hay Dust?

I think it isn´t a technical reason; Panasonic has demostrated that it´s possible to do whatever we ask for, but then comes the economical part. I mean, if they start to sell it in USA before Europe and have the same frame rates, what takes us from buying directly from there, apart to buy a power adapter? There would be lot of grey market cameras flying the Atlantic, not just to Europe but everywhere.

We can buy anyway, but then we won´t be able to shot in 25p. It´s kinda delimitate markets... good thing for them, bad for us, but what the heck.

Anyway, Jan said variable framerates in 720, so let´s hope they give us these options wether we are in PAL or NTSC land. 1080, that´s another thing...

[araujofh]

Well, no, you were right also. The thing is, if you're using a slower frame rate (such as 25p) then yes, 50p (or even better, 60p) would make for perfect slow motion.

If you're using 50p for "reality", then slow mo isn't really an option (well, I guess you could maybe use 60p for a *tiny* slow-mo effect!) But if you're using 25p for a film look, then shooting slow-mo in 50p would give excellent, frame-accurate slow mo, and 60p (if it's an option on the European camera) would give even a little slower slow-mo look.

Barry, I am quite confused as to how the variable frame rate thing works on this camera.
If, according to what you said, we shoot 720/60p (50p for PAL) we are going to get that reality look, then how do we achieve the film look at that same frame rate. That is, the slow motion at that rate? I am quite confused with what you say when you shoot 720/60p and when you say 720/25p (24p US) shooting slow-mo at 50p (60p US). Could you please explain that.

Thanks in advance

Fidel.

[mr._guiyotinne]

because you import this 60p rate video to a 24p timeline in a NLE editor and this way they became slo-mo. I hope i got it right... Learn so much in so little time!

[araujofh]

because you import this 60p rate video to a 24p timeline in a NLE editor and this way they became slo-mo. I hope i got it right... Learn so much in so little time!

And where does the film looks comes here, if, according to what I have been reading, 720/60p is reality look?

[braw]

You slow the 60p footage down to 40% of the original and it will play back at 24 fps with a new frame of information each frame. This is the difference between overcranked slow mo like in movies and that stuttery fake slow mo we've been stuck with in video for a while.

[mr._guiyotinne]

If you are looking for a reality look, then you are likeky to edit in a 60p timeline, but then you won´t be able to get the slo-mo, unless using the speed options with motion blurs or frame blendigng and things like this.

The film look comes from the frames are shown on tv or a cinema theater, 24p is less than eye perception so it makes brain to "fill the gaps" and gives a different behavior (hummm, i´m messing here with lot of things). 60p is getting near how eyes and braing works (and tv hertz and frames...) and images look more "Live"...

Maybe the way how we educate the brain influence it too, as we´ve been waching fils at 24p all life, and news and tv (wich get us in contact with reality) at 50hz, 60hz...

I just burnt some neurons with this paragraphs...

Somewhere around dvxuser is a discussion about this... i think it was pappasarts who started (this info was in those lost neurons).

[Barry_Green]

Shooting 60fps and playing back at 60fps creates the "reality" look.

Shooting 25fps and playing back at 24 or 25fps creates the "film" look (regarding temporal motion, let's not get sidetracked into lighting and grain and stuff).

Shooting 60fps and playing back at 24 or 25fps creates slow motion.

[mr._guiyotinne]

so many cells wasted... for so simple answer...