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Postmaster
06-14-2011, 04:50 AM
Okay, after having some issues with stutter/jitter while panning, I did some tests with the FS100 to see what I can get out of it.

This is actually 3 tests.

1. 25i with 1/25, 1/50 and 1/100 shutter speed
2. 50i with 1/25, 1/50 and 1/100 shutter speed
3. 50p with 1/25, 1/50 and 1/100 shutter speed

The panning speed was reasonable and about what I would do in a real world scenario, but I added a faster pan at the end – just for the sake of it.

It drives me nuts. http://www.ask1.org/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_moz.gif
Iīm used to silky smooth 25fps (50i) pans with my trusty old HVX. But whatever I do, Iīm not able to achieve the same smooth motion rendering with the FS100. Itīs always judder/studder – especial at high contrast areas.

Looks like folks with the non European FS100 @ 24p-1/48 donīt have that problem though http://www.ask1.org/modules/Forums/images/smiles/icon_nerv3.gif

Frank




http://vimeo.com/25075676


http://vimeo.com/25074899


http://vimeo.com/25073459

FelixGER
06-14-2011, 05:16 AM
Hmmm, 25p and Shutter 50 looks awful! I went trough it frame for frame. Looks normal, but in motion it hurts my eyes.
What is going on here??

Even 50p looks weird.

J Davis
06-14-2011, 05:21 AM
I posted about some stuttering while panning here (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?250672-Problem-with-slow-motion-from-7D-(Converting-60p-to-24p)&p=2350826&viewfull=1#post2350826), maybe it might help

Postmaster
06-14-2011, 06:58 AM
I donīt know Davis, if I lok at my HVX200 material http://vimeo.com/15498848 itīs pretty smooth, even on scenes with wild fast handheld action: http://vimeo.com/14936022

Iīm doing uncompressed recording vs. AVCHD recording on the card - tests in the moment.
Looks like uncompressed 50i 1/50 is halfway decent.

Clips conning up.

Frank

Postmaster
06-14-2011, 07:38 AM
I recorded uncompressed (RGB out) to my Blackmagic Decklink. 50i 1/50 shutter. At the same time I recorded to the card.
Looks like it is halfway smooth that way - at least on my preview monitor, coming from the timeline.
So for the moment 50i 1/50 it is.

By the way, I expected way more difference between those two.
It takes some color correction and a 200% magnification until you start seeing the artifacts in the AVCHD version.
Quite impressing

Here is a screenshot and a 200% crop.

35248

Left is uncompressed, right side is AVCHD.

35249

The Video should be available in 30 minutes

Frank


http://vimeo.com/25083191

NeedCreative
06-14-2011, 07:45 AM
Yes on US version I'm not seeing any such issues aside of the normal 24p judder. 1080 60p is smooth.

cheezweezl
06-14-2011, 05:04 PM
is this issue consistant with all euro models? could you have a defective one? it looks more like a codec thing than normal judder to me. or maybe the clock is screwed up in your camera causing it not to shoot the frames uniformly. maybe some are late, some are early.

Steve Benjamin
06-16-2011, 01:40 AM
I was about to order the FS100 (European version) but I think I will wait until this issue is resolved, just watched clips from someone in warsaw http://vimeo.com/groups/fs100/videos/24689464 and his pans are also juddering. Does anyone else in UK/Europe have the same problem?

Postmaster
06-16-2011, 02:36 AM
As far as I can see, itīs a problem only in high contrast areas. If you look at the tilt of the tree itīs awful.
When it gets darker, you donīt see the judder anymore. So it may be ether a codec problem or a rather a processing problem.

I gonna try to turn the detail setting all the way down and see what I get.

Can someone with an US model please make a test at24p 1/48 with high contrast subjects?

Thanks, Frank

Steve Benjamin
06-16-2011, 03:13 AM
I just watched Alistair Chapmans F3/FS100 comparisons and when he tilts the camera down on the FS100 (filming his wife making a bracelet) the picture judders.

FelixGER
06-16-2011, 03:40 AM
Frank, did you contact Sony ?

I had a Sony NX-5 which produced more judder @ 25p than my GH2 @ 23,98 but it did not look like the FS100.

Your 1/25th shutter shots are the most weird. They donīt have the usual motion blur.

Postmaster
06-16-2011, 04:01 AM
Iīm still digging into the problem - on my class 1 preview monitor it looks way smoother, when I play it from the timeline.
It becomes only horrible juddery when converted to H.264.

A bit lost in the moment, but working on it.

Frank

Rick Burnett
06-16-2011, 08:04 AM
What is really strange to me is the SAME exact observations were made by some users with the AF100 at 25P as well. I couldn't see it on mine, but I saw what they were talking about in their videos. Additionally, they were seeing the same thing that the smoothness was affected by where it was played back as well, which really baffles me.

I'd play it back in camera hooked up to something through the HDMI and see how it looks.

MattDavis
06-16-2011, 10:14 AM
Disclaimer: sorry if I am barking up the wrong tree AND lecturing everyone's grandparents on the benefits of vacuum applied to eggs...

Apology to Rick: you got there before I hit send...

Are we driving our monitors at 50Hz or 60Hz? Driving a 50Hz monitor with 50Hz material when going through a 60Hz monitor profile at the DVI channel will make things look bad.

If one were to take 'juddery' footage and, say, do something radical like... make a DVD of it (yes, interlace it) and shove it up your TV at home? Do things get better?

My MacBook Pro screen is driven at 60Hz, and has an in-build 'cadence' when playing back 50Hz material - I just put up with it because I know its characteristics. But I'll connect up to my 32" monitor at 50Hz for more in-depth checking, and the switch isn't necessarily automatic.

M'kay, here's a check: have you plugged the camera into a 'trusted' monitor's HDMI input and watched it there? Done the same with some known and trusted EX1R (or similar) footage? I'll be doing exactly that once I've got these snarking edits put to bed... I'm looking at my FS100 now, the sun is shining outside, and I have to get these snarking edits out...

Rick Burnett
06-16-2011, 10:29 AM
That's a good point Matt and one that I've really not heard anyone else mention. I don't have ANY 50Hz experience living in the states, but playing back on a screen that is 60Hz would in my mind create some issues. Maybe since I have NO 50Hz screens, I've never not noticed footage looking any different.

FelixGER
06-16-2011, 10:30 AM
Matt, thatīs not the issue.
Of course 25p and 24p look more juddery on a 60 hz display (as europeans and americans use normally as computer screens) because it both doesnīt fit (24p needs a pulldown like on an NTSC TV and 25p must also be conformed to 60 hz somehow). But on Frankīs clips itīs worse than usual. 25p from my Z7 or 23,98 from my GH2 donīt look like that on my PC monitor.

Postmaster
06-16-2011, 01:23 PM
I donīt know, 25p or 50i from my HVX look great on the same monitor.

I also watch DVDs and BluRays (24p and 50i/p) on it, never seen something like that before.

Frank

FelixGER
06-16-2011, 02:06 PM
Is the MTS file any different compared to a rendered version?

Steve Benjamin
06-19-2011, 06:42 AM
Did you get any further with this problem Frank?

FelixGER
06-20-2011, 06:42 PM
I just took this file http://vimeo.com/groups/fs100/videos/25073459 and braought it to tmpeg, made a 25p DVD File and burned it on DVD. On my TV Screen (Panasonic LCD) it looks a million times better than on my PC screen. Movement in 1/25th shutter mode looks almost like 50i but still itīs not perfect. Itīs just a little more judder than usual.

Frank, could you do the same? Make a DVD of your MTS Files and watch it on a regular TV.

Rick Burnett
06-20-2011, 10:08 PM
Why would your expect it to look like 50i? 50i is twice the frame rate so of course it will look smoother.

FelixGER
06-21-2011, 05:37 AM
A slow pan looks smooth on both framerates. 25p (360 degree dhutter) because itīs blurry, 50i (or 60i) because itīs smooth for real.
Thatīs the reason I donīt like the look of the latest Michael Mann movies. They look kind of videoish because of the 360 degree shutter used.

All I wanna say is, itīs 90% OK on a regular Screen, that works with 50 hertz. But nevertheless, something is odd.

Frank, you could try dialing down detail to -7 and test it again. Sharp edges increase judder

Postmaster
06-21-2011, 11:06 AM
Hilft auch nix - ich verstehīs ned.

FelixGER
06-21-2011, 12:21 PM
Ich hab hier was ausm DVinfo Forum, da läuft die Diskussion auch gerade.

I have been reading Steves article about motion judder.
It explains why the judder occurs... Read it!!

I have been investigating into the detail settings in the FS100. There is some ability to adjust the balance of detail.
Before it has any effect the manual setting has to be turned ON in the detail setting menu.

After some trial and error I have found out changing the settings has an impact on motion judder in high contrast areas..

I have to investigate more to fully understand the different settings and thereby achieve the optimum result.
The goal seems to be to reduce edge sharpness and to preserve fine detail.
This is a balance and I wish Sony, in the manual, had been more informative in this area. Why do we have to invent the wheel if is already done????

FelixGER
06-22-2011, 11:14 AM
Frank sent me an MTS file, 25p 1/50 shutter
I uploaded it: http://www.steinhardtverlag.de/Felix/00000.MTS

And I made a video with my Canon 60D, same framerate, same shutter

http://www.steinhardtverlag.de/Felix/canon25p.mp4

Could you guys compare those clips and give a conclusion if there is something wrong with the FS100?