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View Full Version : I want it but I think I need some advice



addax
06-10-2011, 10:43 AM
Hi,
I'm making a "list of wishes" and I'd like to know your thoughts about this list:

- Sony FS100
- Zeiss CP.2 35mm (F Mount)
- Zeiss CP.2 85mm (F Mount)
- Atomos Ninja
- Marshall 7'' Monitor --Do I really need it?-- (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/757890-REG/Marshall_Electronics_V_LCD70XP_HDMIPT_SL_7_High_re solution_Field_Monitor.html)
- Zacuto EVF Filmmaker Kit --I think it is too expensive :cry:-- http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=769610&is=REG)


About me?
- My intends are filming music videos and fiction shorts.
- I'm absolutely not a pro so I have not "deadline issues".
- I have DX Nikon lenses (no Full Frame) so I guess they won't fill the sensor.
- I have ~14.000 $ to expend in it.

Any advice? Can I only use the 35mm lense as a start? Do I really need ND filters? (Can't just speed it up?)

Thanks!!

cheezweezl
06-10-2011, 10:52 AM
Dx lenses should cover the frame. This is not a full frame camera.

Regarding evf, the zacuto has nicer resolution than the cineroid but the peaking sucks. The cineroid has phenomenal peaking but the resolution isn't as good as the zacuto.

NDs are a must for daytime exteriors. If I wanna shoot at f2.8, even the highest shutter speed of 1/10000 still has me overexposed sometimes. And that's at 0db gain. Nowhere to go but stopping down which I don't wanna do.

morgan_moore
06-10-2011, 10:52 AM
its s35 which is DX size, not FF your lenses will cover

fast shutter speeds mak sutff look robotic not smooth

morgan_moore
06-10-2011, 10:52 AM
we posted at the same time!

jetswing
06-10-2011, 10:53 AM
Your DX lenses should work fine. The sensor on the FS100 is just about the size of DX (APS-C).

EVF might be a necessity depending on how you like to shoot. It's a lot compact than a field monitor and can be both a monitor and EVF.

Yes, you really need a ND filter. Just one vari-ND might be all you need if you end up uing your Nikon glass.

TimurCivan
06-10-2011, 10:54 AM
If you're just fooling around why not get zeiss ZF's instead? You can get 4 or 5 for the price of 2 cp's.

speedracerlo
06-10-2011, 11:29 AM
I second the zeiss ZFs, that's what I have and I love them

does anyone know how the SmallHD DP4 compares to the Zacuto EVF?

addax
06-10-2011, 11:31 AM
Thanks. I wasn't sure because the DX sensor is smaller than the Super35.


If you're just fooling around why not get zeiss ZF's instead? You can get 4 or 5 for the price of 2 cp's.

As I say, I'm not a pro at all so I don't know so much about theses lenses, only what I've seen in some footages... But I thought CPs were more "cinestyle". I decided to ask you guys just to get those good advices ;-)

NeedCreative
06-10-2011, 07:25 PM
I actually love the peaking on the Zacuto EVF (so does Vincent Laforet he tells me) - I get very accurate focus pulls with it. I like the one in the FS100 too but I am actually better with Zacuto's.

olindacat
06-11-2011, 12:09 AM
Get a really good tripod and use about 20% of your budget for a camera. If you're buying the FS100, expect the total investment to be around $40K to do it right, and allow for 15% depreciation off the bat because everything you buy will be wrong, or seem wrong, in time. Get Barry Green's DVDs on this site for starters. Expect to screw everything up often. Don't quit. Read the threads all the way through. Search this forum for each item in your 'wish list' and bone-up so you'll have a chance. Very helpful people here, who love the topic, but newbies like us stand out like sore thumbs, and can irk. Just absorb and endure and you'll grow. $14K is nothing if you're in this league, and odds are, if you're anything like me, you won't know what you are doing with 80% of what you buy. I'd wager most members here have rooms full of gear and more years in this racket under their belts than they even realize. Ask yourself: Do you have a decent NLE set-up? Do you have a financial plan for everything else, e.g., time spent doing this, manpower, and creative areas in which you have no abilities in? Just to operate a camera properly is so complex that it can take two people and that doesn't include audio. I am just learning this myself and I have my own show now and have shot video for several years!!! Be prepared to buy and sell what you buy. If you live near a store or place where they have real gear, go there daily. Have a sense of humor and don't be afraid to bark back at bullies. Do you even know why you want an external recorder? Is it because you want to put your stuff up on the big screen next month? Me too. Guess what? It may take a little longer than you think. You can probably spend six months learning your way around your new camera and then buy the Ninja for 15% less, with firmware updates galore already done for you.... Ask yourself: What is the purpose of having three monitors? You'll go though the paces and figure it out. Unfortunately, there's no call center offering universal help so you need to be thrifty and humble. Just two cents from another newbie who isn't always very good at practicing what he preaches....

ectobuilder
06-11-2011, 01:32 AM
If you build it, they will come.

Having said that, unless you need to do some serious color grading or unless you need to use a 750GB drive, there is no real external recorder that matches the abilities of the FS100 (i.e. Atomos does not support pulldowns for 24p recorded material, it also does not support 1080@60p and does not support the 10-bit 444 output). The only one that does is the Cinedeck and they are still figuring out if they can do 1080@60p.

For me, the Atomos is at the bottom of the priority list due to all it's short comings.

addax
06-11-2011, 10:52 AM
Thanks, you make me think about it. I hope these comments could help other people to decide...

The problem is that I don't have 40k to expend "right now" but I could start with something cheaper I guess. I have a little project in 4 or 5 months, a music video for a band. That's why I'm not worried about sound recording (they have their demo already).

So, that's my new "light" list:
- Sony FS100
- Zeiss CP.2 35mm (F Mount)
- Zeiss ZF.2 85mm
- Matte box + ND (they are so expensive that I can't decide yet :-()
- Tripod + Dolly (I need to think more)

Ok, the monitor was an easy one. I don't think I'll need it to get a good image. It will be harder but I'm gonna try with the LCD or an external LCD through HDMI.

About Ninja, yeah, I knew it can't record 60p but I thought the quality of the 1080p30 would be much better than AVCHD... I'm not sure anymore, hehe, I guess I can try AVCHD for this first "job" and wait for a better external recorder. Remember this is a music video mostly for the internet and maybe some TV channel (720p will match 75% of the "watchers"). Hmmm, it seems AVCHD could be enough...

I think I will need the Zacuto EVF Filmmaker Kit but I can try and then decide if I have to buy a follow-focus. Do you think I could get a smooth change of focus using directly the lens? And definitively I can wait for a shoulder rig.

Do you think I'm missing something? What about these lenses, do you like them?

David W. Jones
06-11-2011, 12:01 PM
Not trying to tell you what to do, but it makes poor financial sense to purchase all that gear when the only gig you have is an Internet music video 4 or 5 months down the line. Is this even a paying job? And I hate to say it, but just because you build it, does not mean they will come. Without clients this is just a very expensive hobby, that gets even more expensive when you start buying Zeiss CP.2 lenses.

All the Best!

Dave

Rick Burnett
06-11-2011, 12:04 PM
I use a FaderND right now with my FS100. I've tested 30mm and 85mm and I am happy with the results. You WILL need ND, but you don't aways have to use a mattebox. Also, given how clean the FS100 is, you can gain up to get a little more freedom with an ND filter on for some range.

addax
06-11-2011, 01:43 PM
I use a FaderND right now with my FS100. I've tested 30mm and 85mm and I am happy with the results.

Can you add a link?


Without clients this is just a very expensive hobby

You're right Dave. As I said I'm not a "pro" at all (computer are my business) that's why I need a guide about the codec, the lenses, the rig, the filters,...

Thanks!

Rick Burnett
06-11-2011, 01:49 PM
In about a week we will be releasing what we shoot tomorrow with the FS100 and a 7D and you'll be able to see the results then. Right now, sadly, I don't have enough time to show a good test. Overloaded with work.

addax
06-11-2011, 02:03 PM
Ow, sorry, I meant if you can add a link to see the FaderND product... Good luck tomorrow, I will take a look!

John Caballero
06-11-2011, 02:13 PM
All that is really needed to start is the camera with the kits lens, which is OPTIMIZED for it, a good tripod, some ND filters and some lights. And of course a computer to edit. Forget about the lens fallacy, all hot air. Specially when you have to manually focus on difficult situations. Awful footage a lot of the time, especially when you are starting out. $14k should be more than enough to get you started. Do your research and don't listen to people that say you need to spend $40 to get you started. Pure nonsense. Especially in this economy. Shop smart and you will be in great shape to start out. Good luck.

olindacat
06-11-2011, 02:15 PM
- Tripod + Dolly (I need to think more)

Might want to think about going used, and looking for a head that can handle an ever-growing rig yet also have no minimum weight. Heads are VERY expensive. Others here can comment, but long-term, a max weight capacity of like 40lbs and a 100mm bowl for your sticks is something you might want to look at. Used I'm looking at spending between $2-4K.


- Zeiss CP.2 35mm (F Mount)

I know Bloom shows footage he shot using a CP.2 and it looked great but for $4K I don't know that that lens vs a prime still lens is going to differ that much (others are more qualified to comment). You really need to justify the cost. I was in love with the CPs when I first started my joy ride but am learning to dampen myself down a tad. Why not do what was suggested earlier and use Zeiss primes until you know a 'cine' lens is even necessary? If you have a MB, you'll 'look' like a pro and can get something wide as that 35 is going to be more like a 50 FOV on this cam?


Matte box + ND (they are so expensive that I can't decide yet :-()

There's a Pro Aim V11 for $200 right here that you could use to get started with. Once you now how to use it you could sell and your depreciation would be barely nothing. http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?252264-Proaim-v11-mattbox-for-sale-200-or-bid-via-ebay


Ok, the monitor was an easy one. I don't think I'll need it to get a good image. It will be harder but I'm gonna try with the LCD or an external LCD through HDMI.

You can get an ext monitor for under $300 used. 7". I have bad eyes. I was saying three monitors seemed like overkill.


I think I will need the Zacuto EVF Filmmaker Kit but I can try and then decide if I have to buy a follow-focus. Do you think I could get a smooth change of focus using directly the lens? And definitively I can wait for a shoulder rig.

Zacuto is very expensive. Most rigs evolve from a baseplate and MB from what I can see. There is a person here right now and a thread about a company (I think) called Berkley that is developing a specific top plate for the FS100. It may be ready in two weeks. I was in love with Zacuto but have since seen at least a dozen other makers of things that are way cheaper and very solid and used, which is a good way to start. I have not bought one new item yet, except for Green's DVDs (which I would've bought used, but felt I'd support their cause).


Do you think I'm missing something? What about these lenses, do you like them?

I think you are missing a ton. So much, in fact, that putting it on me or anyone else to tell you is a little bit of a reach. You need to do more homework by reading. Compose your post/question based on research. "Like" is subjective. Most here will say 'what do you want to do?' Are you shooting handheld, do you want a certain 'look' from the glass, e.g, cool or warm or creamy? How do you intend to light this? Shooting indoors or out? If you just want an all-round lens you could get the kit lens and see where you are mostly shooting in terms of focal length. If you are always shooting at 35mm and 85mm then you might be in good shape there, but you may not know that until you get the footage into your computer and look at what you like.

olindacat
06-11-2011, 02:22 PM
All that really is needed to start is the camera with the kits lens, which is OPTIMIZED for it, a good tripod, some ND filters and some lights. And of course a computer to edit. Forget about the lens fallacy, all hot air. Specially when you have to manually focus on difficult situations. Awful footage a lot of the time, especially when you are starting out. $14k should be more than enough to get you started. Do your research and don't listen to people that say you need to spend $40 to get you started. Pure nonsense. Especially in this economy. Shop smart and you will be in great shape to start out. Good luck.

I'm saying if you spend $5K for a cube like the FS, and have nothing else, and plan to produce movies and music videos, that camera is going to be a small % of budget. I just guesstimated 20%. My math was wrong as 20% of $25K is $5K. So my mistake. If OP is saying he'll spend $4K for one lens + $5K for base cam, that's $9K. Add kit lens, shipping and a few cards and you're at $10K. If he was trying to make a biz out of it I don't think $15K for lights, sound, head, legs, baseplate, mattebox, filters, rods, monitor, batteries, and all the other stuff he thinks he wants can be had without it adding up. I he was shooting the Beatles in Shea Stadium he could do it with his iPhone and save $13+K too.

kprince
06-11-2011, 08:29 PM
I'd rent if your only gig is 4-5 months away.

David W. Jones
06-12-2011, 04:26 AM
I'd rent if your only gig is 4-5 months away.

+1... Let the band pay for the rental and lights.

addax
06-12-2011, 04:46 AM
Hehe, thanks but, you know, that's not the kind of option I was looking for...

David W. Jones
06-12-2011, 05:16 AM
I want, and I need are two different things.


OK, let's start from the very beginning.
What gear do you already own?
You mention owning some Nikon lenses, which lenses are they, do you have a camera to mount them to, own a tripod?

addax
06-12-2011, 06:06 AM
You're right, David. I don't need any item on the list if this means that I need them for my job, so I'd say I want them :)

I have a Nikon D5000 (yes, I know but please be gentle) and Nikon DX lenses: 35mm, 18-200mm, 70-300mm and a 10.5mm fisheye. I have a cheap tripod that I can only use for photography.

David W. Jones
06-12-2011, 06:29 AM
So you already have a camera capable of shooting HD video, and a set of lenses which cover from 10.5mm to 300mm.

If it were me the first thing I would purchase would be a nice fluid head and tripod, as admittedly your current tripod is not up to the task. It makes sense to get something nice enough so when you do move up to a better camera you do not have to buy another. The next investment I would make would be a light kit. I would purchase these before I spent my hard earned money on a new FS100 and Zeiss CP.2 lenses with matte box. I know that's not what you wanted to hear, but a good tripod and light kit will make a bigger impact on your productions than an expensive camera without them.

addax
06-12-2011, 07:02 AM
Yeah, maybe I don't "want to" but I appreciate it ;-)

I like the Nikon D5000 but I didn't get it because of its video mode. But yes, I've tried to make some footage with it. Well, it is only 720p but the worst part is that it distorts the vertical lines when you move it too quickly... and it's really hard to focus. I understand that's the reason why you suggest the light kit but this could not fix the distortion issue.

Anyway, I will continue thinking about because in two weeks I'm going to test the storyboard with the band and I'll get some takes with my camera.

Thanks again!

David W. Jones
06-12-2011, 07:18 AM
It's your technique not your camera. Almost any camera shooting 24p even a new FS100 is going to have issues when you pan too quickly. And in my book there is nothing wrong with 720p unless you have a broadcaster specifying delivery in 1080.

addax
06-12-2011, 07:37 AM
Ok, I'll test it and tell you about... And I hope a new FS100 has no "gelatine" effect while panning!

Rick Burnett
06-14-2011, 10:03 AM
The FS100 rolling shutter (which is what you are referring to) is much improved, but, if you pan too quickly, depending on your focal length, it will skew. Now, I can tell you that if your camera is anything like the D90 in terms of skewing, it's a VASTLY HUGE improvement. Hands down.

The variable ND I am using is this one:

http://www.lightcraftworkshop.com/site/page1000.aspx

addax
06-14-2011, 12:57 PM
Thanks Rick, I'll take a look. Yeah, it's a "D90 lite" :tongue:

Rick Burnett
06-14-2011, 12:58 PM
Well if that is the case, you are going to be MUCH happier with a different camera. I love the D90 for photos, they look great, but the video mode is the WORST implementation I have seen.

addax
06-17-2011, 01:02 PM
Hi, finally I ordered FS100 plus Zeiss 21mm f/2.8 Distagon ZF.2 and Zeiss 100mm f/2 Makro Planar ZF.2 with Light Craft fader ND filters. I need some rig and Nikon-E adapter but I just cannot decide which one will be right (or is available).

olindacat
06-17-2011, 11:28 PM
addax takes the plunge....

addax
07-12-2011, 09:42 AM
You can bet... I have it already :-D
I will share some comments when I've got something to share :$ hehe

Douglas Villalba
07-12-2011, 10:47 AM
The FS100 HDMI out is 8 bit 4:2:2 or 4:4:4

alaskacameradude
07-12-2011, 11:29 AM
The FS100 HDMI out is 8 bit 4:2:2 or 4:4:4

8 bit 4:2:2 OR 8 bit 4:4:4. Of course, I'm not sure there is a recorder yet that will record 4:4:4.....there may be, I'm just not aware of it at this time. However,
I bet there will be soon....

jambredz
07-12-2011, 01:30 PM
a 21mm and a 100mm ? why those choices? 2 extreme ends. No 35mm or 50mm?

Rick Burnett
07-12-2011, 01:35 PM
a 21mm and a 100mm ? why those choices? 2 extreme ends. No 35mm or 50mm?

Clearly a person who lives on the extremes of cinematography!!! :)

addax
07-12-2011, 04:58 PM
Hehe, nope, I have a 35mm 1.8 Nikon plus a 70-300mm (too dark I guess) and other lenses... I thought 21mm and 100mm will be a good choice for details and wide takes...