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cheezweezl
06-09-2011, 04:17 AM
Here's some stuff I shot with the FS100. This is all test stuff so there are some blown highlights in some shots, while other shots underexpose to preserve highlights. Some low light stuff and a candle light bit at the end. Only 3 flames burning and I was only at 18db gain!! Please excuse the abundance of rack focussing. Just checking the speculars....

Lenses used:

Tokina 11-16 f2.8
Canon 50mm f1.8
Rokinon 85mm f1.4
Canon 70-200 f2.8L
Lensbaby 2.0

All daytime shots used pretty high shutter speeds since I had no ND's for any of this stuff.

This stuff has been graded slightly. The reason being is that my pic profile allows highlights over 100IRE and a slightly raised black level (above 0IRE) helps prevent crushed shadows. The grade applied simply conformed the lift and the gain to normal levels.

Please download rather than stream. Thanks. (https://files.me.com/fisherfilmworks/2g11b7.mov)

FelixGER
06-09-2011, 05:09 AM
Enlighten us with your detailed picture profile! :beer:

Ericjurg
06-09-2011, 07:04 AM
The sensetivity and lack of noise in the night/dark shots is impressive. The codec really seems to hold up with your rack focuses.

cheezweezl
06-09-2011, 04:33 PM
Enlighten us with your detailed picture profile! :beer:

black level: +5
gamma: cinematone 1
black gamma: middle, +7
knee: manual - knee point: 105% - slope: -5
color mode: cinematone 1, level 8
color level: 0 - however for a lot of shots in this test footage i cranked this level up to test the camera/codec against the nasty saturation blowout that the 7D does.
color phase: 0
WB shift: all zero
Detail: 0

MattDavis
06-10-2011, 01:56 AM
... and it shall be dubbed... AgfaChrome!

Sharing footage is great - sort of like visual Buddy Breathing 'til we all have our cameras in hand.

FelixGER
06-10-2011, 04:03 AM
knee: manual - knee point: 105% - slope: -5


So you kind of "deactivated" knee?
Interesting!

cheezweezl
06-10-2011, 10:38 AM
So you kind of "deactivated" knee?
Interesting!

Actually I didn't. The 105% level allows it to clip at 105IRE, giving me a little more room to play with. This has to be corrected in post but the info is preserved.

My goal was the smoothest rolloff possible and these settings seem to do it. My test for this was very unscientific. It was when I was shooting the ultra wide landscape from the hilltop found in the footage. I was trying to preserve the sky while opening up as much as possible for the shadows. This setting worked the best.

The auto knee actually seems to work pretty well too, but won't allow the extra 5% on the top end.

FelixGER
06-10-2011, 01:49 PM
Alright, thatīs very valuable info!

The manual says:

[SLOPE] : Sets the knee slope.
-5 (gentle) to +5 (steep)

So -5 is a "stronger" compression than +5? I mixed that up...so +5 would be like knee (almost) off

cheezweezl
06-10-2011, 03:04 PM
i think gentle means a softer clip and rounder curve than steep does. i found that where steep would have my sky blowing, gentle would preserve it. and when it does blow, gentle seems to make a smoother transition/falloff, which makes sense..


Alright, thatīs very valuable info!

The manual says:

[SLOPE] : Sets the knee slope.
-5 (gentle) to +5 (steep)

So -5 is a "stronger" compression than +5? I mixed that up...so +5 would be like knee (almost) off

NeedCreative
06-10-2011, 07:27 PM
Here's some stuff I shot with the FS100. This is all test stuff so there are some blown highlights in some shots, while other shots underexpose to preserve highlights. Some low light stuff and a candle light bit at the end. Only 3 flames burning and I was only at 18db gain!! Please excuse the abundance of rack focussing. Just checking the speculars....

Lenses used:

Tokina 11-16 f2.8
Canon 50mm f1.8
Rokinon 85mm f1.4
Canon 70-200 f2.8L
Lensbaby 2.0

All daytime shots used pretty high shutter speeds since I had no ND's for any of this stuff.

This stuff has been graded slightly. The reason being is that my pic profile allows highlights over 100IRE and a slightly raised black level (above 0IRE) helps prevent crushed shadows. The grade applied simply conformed the lift and the gain to normal levels.

Please download rather than stream. Thanks. (https://files.me.com/fisherfilmworks/2g11b7.mov)

What lens is that first shot? Love the bokeh. Nice shots all around, great little cross-section to look at.

cheezweezl
06-10-2011, 07:45 PM
the first shot is the canon 70-200, i believe.

ectobuilder
06-10-2011, 11:04 PM
I shot some night time footage with the Nikon D7000 and the Sony NEX-FS100 today.

I have them both in separate YouTube videos (no time to edit). So check out the difference!

Sony NEX-FS100 (with kit lens)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CcKZfFcRHcI

Nikon D7000 (with kit lens)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWHPq3Mq-i0

Notice that YouTube does NOT recognize 1080@60p therefore it downgraded my FS100 to 480p - sigh.

cheezweezl
06-11-2011, 12:08 AM
I wouldn't even call that a comparison. It's like comparing chocolate cake to a dead cat.

cheezweezl
06-11-2011, 12:10 AM
On the bright side, at least you still have the D7000 in case you want to do a crazy alien-induced electrical storm effect in camera :-)

DvxHerb
06-11-2011, 03:03 AM
"It's like comparing chocolate cake to a dead cat"

Ha! Awesome analogy.

MazingerZ
06-11-2011, 11:35 AM
i think gentle means a softer clip and rounder curve than steep does. i found that where steep would have my sky blowing, gentle would preserve it. and when it does blow, gentle seems to make a smoother transition/falloff, which makes sense..

This document on Sony Picture Profiles has useful info and illustrations:

http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/professional/hdv/pdf/HVR-Z7_S270Tutorial_e7.pdf

JMartin
06-11-2011, 05:10 PM
This document on Sony Picture Profiles has useful info and illustrations:

http://www.sony-asia.com/microsite/professional/hdv/pdf/HVR-Z7_S270Tutorial_e7.pdf

Nice find. Looks like the "Black gamma" function will be very useful, especially given the low noise on the FS100.

ectobuilder
06-11-2011, 11:39 PM
Alright, thatīs very valuable info!

The manual says:

[SLOPE] : Sets the knee slope.
-5 (gentle) to +5 (steep)

So -5 is a "stronger" compression than +5? I mixed that up...so +5 would be like knee (almost) off

Pro Sony's website has a great resource on this stuff.

Here is the link explaining knee:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/assets/files/micro/xdcamex/solutions/Avoiding_Over-exposure.pdf

FelixGER
06-12-2011, 06:45 AM
Thatīs odd. In this document the knee slope is the exact opposite. Minus = steep and plus = gentle

Amr Rahmy
06-12-2011, 07:42 AM
I wouldn't even call that a comparison. It's like comparing chocolate cake to a dead cat.

+1:grin:

MattDavis
06-12-2011, 08:23 AM
gentle slope = 'more' highlight compression, perhaps?

ectobuilder
06-12-2011, 08:45 AM
Thatīs odd. In this document the knee slope is the exact opposite. Minus = steep and plus = gentle

I believe the idea is you want to control the INTERSECTING point to the horizontal line. You're controlling how much illumination (X-Axis) you are getting WITHIN the confines of your white clip point (Y-Axis).

So find your Y-Maximum then adjust your horizontal movement along that Y-Maximum. So in the example Y-Maximum = 109%. Then that becomes your Y-Constant (Y-Maximum = Y-Constant). Now as you adjust your slope it will intersect at various points along that Y-Constant.

We are essentially constraining our equation (the slope) along that Y-Constant (White Clip Line) so that we get a White Clip Point (hence the intersection).

I think the trick is finding out how Sony has calibrated the knee such that where Knee = 0.

EDIT:
Some things that caught my eye (I'm hypothesizing here as I'm no expert):
- Sony notes that this is a proprietary implementation as Sony explicitly notes that this is only on "Sony Cameras" so other Knees use different equations.
- The main thing Sony wants you to know is that an INCREASING Knee value extends the use of the video camera's dynamic range. Sony managed to increase the dynamic range through COMPRESSION. So as Knee increases so does the dynamic range of the camera BUT only through compression so things like noise should be taken into consideration.
- Sony notes that as Dynamic Range of the camera increases, the risk of getting a washed out image also increases.
- Therefore the opposite is true, a lower Knee value decreases dynamic range but also decreases noise and colors should look more full as there is less risk of being washed out.
- The document also recommends the complementary aide of the "Knee Function" and "Knee Saturation" function. So what this tells me is that they've applied a similar Knee Function (equation) to other aspects of image quality to help aide the use of their knee for dynamic range. Kind of like a drug to aide in side effects of other drugs. Anyone see these complementary aides on the FS100?

QUESTION:
- How does Knee Point relate to Knee Slope and the White Clip Point?

ectobuilder
06-12-2011, 09:04 AM
Apparently this guy is the digital color expert, he does seminars on these types of things:
Charles Poynton
http://www.poynton.com/

I'm going to email the guy.

cheezweezl
06-13-2011, 01:54 PM
I believe the idea is you want to control the INTERSECTING point to the horizontal line. You're controlling how much illumination (X-Axis) you are getting WITHIN the confines of your white clip point (Y-Axis).

So find your Y-Maximum then adjust your horizontal movement along that Y-Maximum. So in the example Y-Maximum = 109%. Then that becomes your Y-Constant (Y-Maximum = Y-Constant). Now as you adjust your slope it will intersect at various points along that Y-Constant.

We are essentially constraining our equation (the slope) along that Y-Constant (White Clip Line) so that we get a White Clip Point (hence the intersection).

I think the trick is finding out how Sony has calibrated the knee such that where Knee = 0.

EDIT:
Some things that caught my eye (I'm hypothesizing here as I'm no expert):
- Sony notes that this is a proprietary implementation as Sony explicitly notes that this is only on "Sony Cameras" so other Knees use different equations.
- The main thing Sony wants you to know is that an INCREASING Knee value extends the use of the video camera's dynamic range. Sony managed to increase the dynamic range through COMPRESSION. So as Knee increases so does the dynamic range of the camera BUT only through compression so things like noise should be taken into consideration.
- Sony notes that as Dynamic Range of the camera increases, the risk of getting a washed out image also increases.
- Therefore the opposite is true, a lower Knee value decreases dynamic range but also decreases noise and colors should look more full as there is less risk of being washed out.
- The document also recommends the complementary aide of the "Knee Function" and "Knee Saturation" function. So what this tells me is that they've applied a similar Knee Function (equation) to other aspects of image quality to help aide the use of their knee for dynamic range. Kind of like a drug to aide in side effects of other drugs. Anyone see these complementary aides on the FS100?

QUESTION:
- How does Knee Point relate to Knee Slope and the White Clip Point?

Ooops!! I guess I got this one backwards. It's weird though, at positive values, my highlights were much quicker to blow out. Even to the point of having a cloudy sky at negative values and having only white at positive values.

Ya know what though, its possible that the LCD just couldn't display info that was there.

I gotta do a real test with this.

nyvz
06-13-2011, 03:37 PM
QUESTION:
- How does Knee Point relate to Knee Slope and the White Clip Point?

It's pretty simple as far as I can tell, knee point is the luma level at which knee gamma intersects with master gamma, and slope is the slope of the knee gamma. These adjustments are completely independent of one another whereas white clip point is dependent upon both of those. Basically knee point chooses the point at which knee starts modifying the master gamma curve and the slope adjusts the linear(?) compression or expansion of those values. If slope is set too high such that image highlights are expanded past 109%, then those details are clipped, and if slope is set lower such that clipped image data compressed to below 109%, then clipped values will be assigned to values below 109%.

It all seems a little silly to me since all I care about is maintaining a natural curve and controlling my white level, unfortunately there is no way to quite achieve this without some compromise. I'd rather just have a white level adjustment that sets 109% or 100% and compresses the entire gamma range to accommodate and highlight gamma adjustments like we have black gamma adjustments since having a point where your gamma curve flattens to accommodate a knee always looks pretty ugly. It is really beyond me why someone decided highlight portions of an image should be handled differently and should have hard angles and straight lines in the gamma curve. Hard angles and straight lines never look good in any part of a gamma curve, so why put one in the highlights, what if the user decides to overexpose more than a little of their frame?

What's interesting is that since knee cannot be turned off, gamma curves were probably built with that in mind. From what I can tell, setting knee point to 105% and slope to 0 is basically like turning the knee off and letting the gamma curve handle it the way it was designed. It does seem like the knee in this camera is a bit different from other cameras in that it seems softer at least when used with cinematone gammas, it maybe that rather than completely overriding highlight gamma and replacing it with a straight line it may just be taking the original gamma curve and compressing that a bit more, so the angles can be a bit softer. I've found that with cinematone1, setting knee point to 75% and slope to +1 gives exactly 100% white clip point without losing any highlight latitude and with a fairly subtle knee point perhaps because the adjustment is spread out over a longer part of the gamma curve. With any other setting, if you shoot a gradient and adjust the knee point, you can see the unnatural hard angle of the gamma curve at the knee point just move around and never really go away until you hit 105% @ slope 0.