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ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 02:18 PM
I can't help but to think why the marketing behind the FS100 keeps saying "large 35mm sensor" when in fact it is SMALLER than the APS-C sized NEX-VG10!

According to the FS100's brochure the 'Exmor Super 35mm' is 23.6mm x 13.3mm. However the VG10's product page is saying that it has an Exmor Sensor size of 23.4mm x 15.6mm which by the way is the same size as the Nikon DX Sensor!

But after having seen the incredible low light/high ISO performance of the FS100, I think what they should have emphasized was the whole process of Sensor Ability (i.e. 3.4MP, so large cell sites) to Processing ability of this camcorder.

Therefore it is the A to Z construction and processing of this camcorder that allows it to fully maximize the usage of it's sensor, whereas a VG10 or say a 5D Mark II is having to throw away information captured with their sensors, thus resulting in a overall lower quality video image.

This whole '35mm' thing is getting out of hand, none of the measurements here is actually '35mm'. It has now become a synonym (maybe even a euphemism!).

What do you guys think?

eheath
06-03-2011, 02:30 PM
its s35 or super 35mm, its not related to 35mm photo film at all, its talking about video film, which s35mm is the size of the fs100/f3 sensors.

ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 02:34 PM
its s35 or super 35mm, its not related to 35mm photo film at all, its talking about video film, which s35mm is the size of the fs100/f3 sensors.

Kinda wierd how it has the term '35mm' though. Not Sony's fault I'm sure as the term "S35" is an industry standard.

But still doesn't address why the FS100's sensor is being marketed as "large sensor" when it is smaller than the VG10. Keep in mind the VG10 is within the same NXCAM line of camcorders as the FS100 even though it is in the consumer league.

speedracerlo
06-03-2011, 02:40 PM
I read on dvinfo that the VG10, FS100 and F3 all share the same Nikon DX sensor as the base
the VG10 crops the sensor more than the FS100 or F3
this is just info I read so I don't know the full details

olindacat
06-03-2011, 02:44 PM
Kinda wierd how it has the term '35mm' though. Not Sony's fault I'm sure as the term "S35" is an industry standard.

But still doesn't address why the FS100's sensor is being marketed as "large sensor" when it is smaller than the VG10. Keep in mind the VG10 is within the same NXCAM line of camcorders as the FS100 even though it is in the consumer league.
I wonder just how much different the sensors are as far as the cell sites, etc....

jetswing
06-03-2011, 02:51 PM
Super 35mm is 10% larger than APS-C and 45% smaller than Full-Frame (5D).

ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 03:40 PM
I read on dvinfo that the VG10, FS100 and F3 all share the same Nikon DX sensor as the base
the VG10 crops the sensor more than the FS100 or F3
this is just info I read so I don't know the full details

Yes the VG10 crops due to line skipping (I believe) since it has 14MP resolution on the sensor and has to downscale it to HD = 2MP.

Here is a review that compares the VG10 with the F3 side-by-side and you can see the crop on the VG10:
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2011/05/comparison-clips-to-download/tests2-t2i/
Just click on the image to cycle through, they also have the T2i in there for good measure.

So I believe that 'larger sensor' implies that the FS100 and F3 are using the FULL CAPABILITY of their sensor as opposed to throwing data away. Juan Mendez, Sony Product Manager, said that the 5D Mark II throws away as much as 66% of the captured data from the sensor when rendering video.

ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 03:43 PM
Super 35mm is 10% larger than APS-C and 45% smaller than Full-Frame (5D).

This is not true when talking about the FS100/F3 vs VG10's PHYSICAL sensor. Since the VG10's sensor is 23.4mm x 15.6mm vs 23.6mm x 13.3mm on the FS100/F3.

The VG10 is said to have an APS-C type sensor (since 'C' stands for Canon as they invented the sensor size?). Note that the VG10's sensor size is exactly the same physical size as Nikon's APS-C type sensor aka DX Format. However this does not imply that the resulting FOV is the same (due to crop...etc).

However the resulting FOV image on the FS100/F3 is larger due to the fact that the VG10 crops the image. Having said that, all camcorders/cameras crop since the resolution on the sensor is always above HD (hence the FS100/F3 has a 3MP sensor which is approximately 1MP above HD).

Also the description 'larger' could also refer to the fact that the FS100/F3's post-sensor ability to eliminate most moire artifacts and alliasing.

The color on the FS100 and F3 also appears to have more latitude as well (they better be seeing the price difference!)

eheath
06-03-2011, 03:46 PM
But still doesn't address why the FS100's sensor is being marketed as "large sensor" when it is smaller than the VG10. Keep in mind the VG10 is within the same NXCAM line of camcorders as the FS100 even though it is in the consumer league.

Because it is a big sensor, compared to any other sensor in the video camera world, before, the biggest was a 2/3" 3ccd, s35mm are waayy bigger than that. Even the af100, which has a smaller sensor than most dslrs, is still a "large sensor" camera.

ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 03:52 PM
It would appear that marketing is all sleight of hand.

Upon closer inspection, it would appear that when Sony marketing says that the Exmore Super 35 is 'larger', they are referring to the professional style ENG/handheld camcorders like the Sony EX3's and the Canon XF300 as they have 1/2" and 1/3" sensors respectively.

This makes sense since the FS100 competes against these types of camcorders as opposed to the consumer level VG10.

Very interesting about the assumption Sony marketing is making. I guess without XLR inputs none of us would consider the VG10 anyways.

NeedCreative
06-03-2011, 04:08 PM
The VG10 has a line skipping DSLR chip thats also cropped. It has all the issues HDSLRs have. Look at the 5D - huge chip, only a small amount of lines used (though it doesn't crop). This is my educated guess: The chips used in the S35 Sony cams are oversampled full-scan - no line skipping and multiple pixels are used to form one pixel in the HD 1920X1080 matrix. That's how they get their lack of aliasing (no line skips) and light sensitivity (many more "buckets" per pixel).

I heard oversampling mentioned a number of times in various Sony presentations, which leads me to believe the Exmor S35 chip is at least a variant of a stills sensor but with different on-chip processing specifically for video. I bet you there are still megapixels worth of photsites on the thing, but processed totally differently.

jetswing
06-03-2011, 04:25 PM
This is not true when talking about the FS100/F3 vs VG10's PHYSICAL sensor. Since the VG10's sensor is 23.4mm x 15.6mm vs 23.6mm x 13.3mm on the FS100/F3.

The VG10 is said to have an APS-C type sensor (since 'C' stands for Canon as they invented the sensor size?). Note that the VG10's sensor size is exactly the same physical size as Nikon's APS-C type sensor aka DX Format. However this does not imply that the resulting FOV is the same (due to crop...etc).

However the resulting FOV image on the FS100/F3 is larger due to the fact that the VG10 crops the image. Having said that, all camcorders/cameras crop since the resolution on the sensor is always above HD (hence the FS100/F3 has a 3MP sensor which is approximately 1MP above HD).

Also the description 'larger' could also refer to the fact that the FS100/F3's post-sensor ability to eliminate most moire artifacts and alliasing.

The color on the FS100 and F3 also appears to have more latitude as well (they better be seeing the price difference!)

Nikon DX and Sony ASP-C is slight larger than APS-C (Canon). So here's a true statement:

Super 35mm is 10% larger than APS-C (7D) and 45% smaller than Full-Frame (5D).

Jean-Philippe
06-03-2011, 04:26 PM
No, a bayer sensor have to be oversampled to get sufficient line pairs of actual resolution. the sensor is 2468X1398 so it is oversampled, but this count is 3.36 mpx, so definitly not made for still. There is a wonderful arcticle in two parts on sensors in the last two issues or American cinematographer. You should take a look.

cheezweezl
06-03-2011, 04:46 PM
its s35 or super 35mm, its not related to 35mm photo film at all, its talking about video film, which s35mm is the size of the fs100/f3 sensors.

this made me spit my drink out. lol...

dop16mm
06-03-2011, 06:08 PM
The American Cinematographer article was quite interesting in its descriptions of actual pixels vs. photosites which can also be described as pixels. The 3.5 mp chip in the fs100 and f3 could very well be 14mp sensors using full RGBG mapping, via a faster processor behind it. 3.5 x 4 = 14. A 4 pixel photo site is read as one pixel and voila. If this is indeed the case Sony would be well positioned to quickly trickle this into consumer products. They would still be able to promote the High MP numbers for stills, and then just add the appropriate video processing for video. Come on VG20, bring on 24p. They must know that the VG10 was a dud in North America due to the lack of 24p. If they were to add fs100 level video processing to the vg10 form, I'm sure it would kill the gh2 and canon dslr market, at least for video shooters. And it wouldn't kill the fs-100 and f3 levels either. Sony Knows there is a market at every price point and will milk it for as long as they can. The Products at the 2k price point are getting a little long in the tooth and are due for updating. I just hope they make a prosumer version with at least a removeable or optional xlr pack. I could manage $2.5k for something like that

Lee Saxon
06-03-2011, 07:35 PM
The VG10 is an insanely overpriced video-enabled still camera in a sort of camcorder-shaped body. It's just an NEX5! Has a still camera sensor just like the 5D, GH2, etc etc with all the same downsampling and low read-reset nonsense.

The FS100 has a sensor actually designed for motion capture.

The FS100 is a "large sensor camera" in comparison to other motion cameras. It's not fair to compare it to stills cameras: in that arena even full 36x24 35mm format isn't "large sensor" (view camera sheet film can be 8x10 INCHES).

John Caballero
06-03-2011, 08:14 PM
This whole '35mm' thing is getting out of hand, none of the measurements here is actually '35mm'. It has now become a synonym (maybe even a euphemism!).

Priceless!


its s35 or super 35mm, its not related to 35mm photo film at all, its talking about video film, which s35mm is the size of the fs100/f3 sensors

Priceless!


Kinda wierd how it has the term '35mm' though. Not Sony's fault I'm sure as the term "S35" is an industry standard.

Priceless!

It is like the blind leading the blind. The perils of not knowing what real film looked like and worked like in stills and motion I suppose. Oh dear film, old friend, it is been such a long time since we heard from you....

cheezweezl
06-03-2011, 08:35 PM
+1^^^

ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 08:43 PM
Priceless!



Priceless!



Priceless!

It is like the blind leading the blind. The perils of not knowing what real film looked like and worked like in stills and motion I suppose. Oh dear film, old friend, it is been such a long time since we heard from you....

I guess what I'm getting at is, with the lines blurring between DSLR's and video camcorders, the term 35mm is losing it's meaning. Yes I know there are different standards for stills and video.

For instance, Sony says they have a 'larger sensor'. While Canon will say that their 5D has a 'large sensor'.

Well which one is it? I guess my point is that each side has assumptions and certainly Sony and Canon are making these assumptions.

Look at the marketing material for the sensors on the VG10 vs FS100, and you'll see that assumption in there.

cheezweezl
06-03-2011, 08:54 PM
I guess what I'm getting at is, with the lines blurring between DSLR's and video camcorders, the term 35mm is losing it's meaning. Yes I know there are different standards for stills and video.

For instance, Sony says they have a 'larger sensor'. While Canon will say that their 5D has a 'large sensor'.

Well which one is it? I guess my point is that each side has assumptions and certainly Sony and Canon are making these assumptions.

Look at the marketing material for the sensors on the VG10 vs FS100, and you'll see that assumption in there.

the marketing terminology may be confusing but i assure you that S35 has a real and definite meaning. it comes from FILM, not video. as in, the size of the film plane when referring to a motion picture film camera. the motion picture film is 35mm just like the stuff that runs thru your still camera. why is there a difference between full frame (still) 35mm and S35? because the film runs thru a still camera from side to side and it runs through a motion picture camera up and down. this means a bigger plane for stills on the same 35mm film.

so to end the confusion. 5D = full frame 35mm (still camera full frame) FS100 = S35 (motion picture camera full frame) if you know this stuff then the marketing BS is simply just that...

ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 08:58 PM
the marketing terminology may be confusing but i assure you that S35 has a real and definite meaning. it comes from FILM, not video. as in, the size of the film plane when referring to a motion picture film camera. the motion picture film is 35mm just like the stuff that runs thru your still camera. why is there a difference between full frame (still) 35mm and S35? because the film runs thru a still camera from side to side and it runs through a motion picture camera up and down. this means a bigger plane for stills on the same 35mm film.

so to end the confusion. 5D = full frame 35mm (still camera full frame) FS100 = S35 (motion picture camera full frame) if you know this stuff then the marketing BS is simply just that...

Thanks for clarifying really appreciate it. Wish I had an old school camera/camcorder to play with.

ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 09:02 PM
the marketing terminology may be confusing but i assure you that S35 has a real and definite meaning. it comes from FILM, not video. as in, the size of the film plane when referring to a motion picture film camera. the motion picture film is 35mm just like the stuff that runs thru your still camera. why is there a difference between full frame (still) 35mm and S35? because the film runs thru a still camera from side to side and it runs through a motion picture camera up and down. this means a bigger plane for stills on the same 35mm film.

so to end the confusion. 5D = full frame 35mm (still camera full frame) FS100 = S35 (motion picture camera full frame) if you know this stuff then the marketing BS is simply just that...

So having said that, how is the S35 enforced within the industry? For instance the Red Epic has a larger than standard S35 sensor. What is ensuring interoperability between cameras and theaters? Post production?

cheezweezl
06-03-2011, 09:05 PM
nothing old school about it.

still TONS of movies, TV, commercials, music videos, etc. shooting on film every day. the digital revolution is just beginning in the high end world. why, because film has huge dynamic range and wonderfully forgiving falloff.

the red mx and arri alexa are really the first cameras that are enough like film to start to convert the die-hard film guys.

if you really want to learn about film cams and how they work, go hang out at panavision. tell them you want to learn. they'll show you a thing or two...

John Caballero
06-03-2011, 09:12 PM
WIKIPEDIA is your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_35_film

cheezweezl
06-03-2011, 09:13 PM
So having said that, how is the S35 enforced within the industry? For instance the Red Epic has a larger than standard S35 sensor. What is ensuring interoperability between cameras and theaters? Post production?

it's not like a hard and fast government regulated spec. S35, in marketing terms means roughly the size of the super 35mm film plane. a millimeter or two difference isn't really going to change your life. Just know that S35 is not FF35 is not M4/3 is not 2/3" etc.

Sensor size has nothing to do with capture resolution. My EX1 with a 1/2" sensor records in the exact same format and resolution as the F3.

And yes, post is the bridge between capture and delivery. If you are going to digital projection at 4k, 2k or 1080hd, then you conform your final output to that format. remember, there have been theatrical releases that originated on DV, standard def, 1/3" chip, 720x480. they were blown up and printed to film. most looked like garbage but it IS possible.

ectobuilder
06-03-2011, 09:15 PM
WIKIPEDIA is your friend:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_35_film

They are rarely written well. lol

John Caballero
06-03-2011, 09:22 PM
They are rarely written well.

This one happens to be. And it explains pretty clearly what Super35 is all about. For those not sure about its origins.