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View Full Version : Sony FS100 vs EX1R vs NX5U



sandersaar
06-01-2011, 02:59 AM
Hi!
I started with film several years years ago (still new), using small mobiles and later handheld consumer camcoders etc.
Now been doing several corporate videos, live streams, event videos, TV clips and have a need for my own camera (no more renting). So far been using EX3 and EX1 most of the time. The purpose still is most of the time web video.
Therefore I am considering three options and would like a little bit of help from experienced people. I am choosing between:
1) Sony EX1R
2) Sony NEX-FS100
3) Sony NX5U

What do you think which one would be the best for my purposes?

PS! What do you think about this review. Is it adequate http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=268 ?

maranfilms
06-01-2011, 03:04 AM
fs100 - no doubt

sandersaar
06-01-2011, 03:17 AM
fs100 - no doubt

Would it also be good and fast "point and shoot" (referring to slow autofocus). During events there have been several occasions, where there is not time to setup camera rather than turn it on and go.

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 03:31 AM
I own EX1 and 7d maybe FS100 soon

The EX1 is utter simplicity to not mess shots up with - the main criteria for "corporate videos, live streams, event videos, TV "

Has various details (SDI out) that make it more flexible than the other cams

its sharp, its global frame rates

Unless you have a twisted burning desire for the 'cine' look - it is the best cam

(i have no knowledge of the other sony)

of course you can get the cine look by buying a T2i and a 50 as a B cam

S

FelixGER
06-01-2011, 03:36 AM
autofocus, although it seems fast on the FS100, is not really useable on this sensor size. The camera never knows what part of the image should be in focus.
On my fellow GH2 I only use AF when shooting F8 and above.

You have to decide between freaky low light capabilities or deep focus for adequate runīnīgun style filming.

I just sold my NX5. The cam is ok, but the codec has a flaw/bug. It kind of flickers in the dark every second or so (maybe every new GOP starting point). No faulty cam. I checked another NX5 at my retailer and itīs the same.
Therefore I would not recommend it.

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 03:39 AM
the zoom on the EX1 is the same magnification of a medium/long tele still photo lens too

S

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 03:49 AM
you could consider the AF100 which is a good middle ground - you can sort of get the cine look, and still have some hope of holding focus and get a good telephoto magnification without a huge lens

S

Hidef1080
06-01-2011, 03:58 AM
The FS100 has not been out long enough to get any real feedback on it yet.
Plus the EX1 and NX5U would be closer to each other than the FS.
I see the FS100 as a very different camera than the other two.

Based on what you are doing I would say the EX1 or NX5 but it's up to you.

If I get an FS100 it would be an addition to my EX1 and so much a replacement.

sandersaar
06-01-2011, 04:55 AM
Looking at most of the videoprofessionals' gear, then they tend to have one Sony EX1, EX3 or even F350. And then additional gear of DSLR cameras (such as 5D mark II or 7D). I already own a Canon 60D with 24-105mm L lens.
What do you think? Is it better then to start with EX1R and then buy the second camera as FS100 or Pana AF101 or still start with FS100, because everyone wants a cine look and feel even on the web?

Hidef1080
06-01-2011, 05:00 AM
I can't really tell you what you need but if you already have a DSLR I would think the EX1 or a camera along those lines might be better.

I see the FS100 as "a much better DSLR".
I don't have a video DSLR so the FS100 looks good to me.

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 05:20 AM
Looking at most of the videoprofessionals' gear, then they tend to have one Sony EX1, EX3 or even F350. And then additional gear of DSLR cameras (such as 5D mark II or 7D). I already own a Canon 60D with 24-105mm L lens.
What do you think? Is it better then to start with EX1R and then buy the second camera as FS100 or Pana AF101 or still start with FS100, because everyone wants a cine look and feel even on the web?

I think it depends on your 'director' - I have corp clients who will be at an event and say 'zoom in on that' and other such requests

Such requests dont really work with a DSLR/ FS100, you might have to change lenses and even fiddle with a FF and ND/Matte box - the moment will pass

If you work in a more structured environment the FS100 will look more cine than the 2/3 cams

head : EX1 heart: FS100

sandersaar
06-01-2011, 07:17 AM
head : EX1 heart: FS100

That's very true, but I think that EX1r is the best way to start of and then add FS100 later on, when I could afford that as well.

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 08:10 AM
As a DSLR owner you have the look avaialble - now you need the solidity - sound - ease of use 0- etc

But if you are like me (and this is the exact debate Im having with myself) you could end up shooting 80% on your 'worst' camera

If I keep my EX1 i just shoot on my lashed together DSLR kit 90% of the time (my 'good cam' being 90% unused - just pulled out in 'emergencies' - boring long speeches, fast ENG, telepoto requirement)

If I got the FS100 I would use it 100% of the time (my good cam being 0% unused) and fall over on a couple of RnG jobs by getting in a mess fiddling with ND and lenschanges

If i got the AF100 what would the % be then 10%, 20% 50% .. I dunno

Im literally staring at a spreadsheet..

Light Weight Tele Photo - Af100
Low light - FS100
Ease of focus AF100
Cine look FS100
ETc

I think my score is FS100 8, AF100 8 so far !

I think you should consider the Af100 as a med point

Pared if with 14-140 its sureley farily TV like and with a 095 25mm pretty cinematic

S

MattDavis
06-01-2011, 08:59 AM
I have two EX1Rs and a T2i - the latter is going to be relegated to Stills & Timelapse, because whilst I'm happy with the look, I'm not happy with the associated 'baggage' of DSLRs.

Nigel's review? He's being honest. He doesn't like the camera. That's fine. Yes, everyone who's used the stock lens has said 'get the body and use the cash saved to buy an adaptor and some lenses' - which is sound advice. FS100 seems fair gene-splice between the two camps. Not sure if I'd have only FS100 at this stage, EX1s are hard to beat, and dispite a shaky start, can be handheld in a wide range of situations. But I've seen enough from Stills glass and S35 sensors to 'need' it, and the last few jobs have been 'would have looked nicer on a bigger sensor'.

Sigh. Another week to go...

sandersaar
06-01-2011, 10:14 AM
You are absolutely right I think. There serve different purposes and sometimes for promotions, corporate, web, it is good to have a bigger sensor, shallow depth of field "film look", but for events "point-and-shoot" purposes there is nothing better than EX1R I think.
I just once again went through these comparison videos by Philip Bloom (Sony FS100 , Sony F3 and Panasonic AF100/101) http://vimeo.com/23294197 and http://vimeo.com/23344796 where he also says that DSLRs just are about as good as FS100 or AF100.
All of them are missing something and have something that others dont. I also found out that there is a solution to get a "film like" picture from EX1R as well with a 35mm adapter http://www.letusdirect.com/letus-ultimate.html

Let me know if there are any other aspects I should consider! I appreciate your help a lot!

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 10:38 AM
adaptors suck - loss of light - heavy unbalanced - knock the focus on the camera and lose the rest of the days shooting - nice - stick with your DSLR over an adapter (IMO)

I think the image from DSLR will be 'nearly' as good as the other S35 cams - you are buying synched monitorable sound, timecode, no mini HDMI, mount points, no mirror and to get in the way of PL lenses etc rather than pure image quality - and they throw in a bad user interface for free !

S

Hidef1080
06-01-2011, 10:53 AM
I'm not sure what the film look is because it seems to vary from person to person.

If you want the film look above all else then I would say look at the FS100 or one of the other larger single chip cameras... AF100.


I would think about what I want the most.
What I/my clients want the most.
What my budget says I can afford.
And then go from there.

The EX1 in my mind is more of a corporate, events type of camera HOWEVER it has been used in a number of films and I believe some TV shows.

But if I were looking at 35mm adapters, I would not look at the EX1.
I would go right for a camera that allowed me to use different lenses without an adapter.


My 2 cents.

sandersaar
06-01-2011, 12:45 PM
It is still hard to decide, because I need it for different purposes and my budget allows me to get only one camera.
For promotions, corporate overviews, product videos it is better to have a FS100 or AF100

For events, interviews and live stream EX1R seems like a right solution.

Another thing is that for FS100 and AF100 I need to by some more glass and also rig to use it handheld.

Once it seems like I've made decision for EX1R, but then FS100 comes to my mind again and again.

imag
06-01-2011, 01:25 PM
Once it seems like I've made decision for EX1R, but then FS100 comes to my mind again and again.

Might I recommend a thought experiment? Consider: if the FS100 had been out for well over a year and the EX1R was just coming out this week, which one would you want?

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 01:36 PM
It is still hard to decide, because I need it for different purposes and my budget allows me to get only one camera.
For promotions, corporate overviews, product videos it is better to have a FS100 or AF100

For events, interviews and live stream EX1R seems like a right solution.

Another thing is that for FS100 and AF100 I need to by some more glass and also rig to use it handheld.

.

I use my EX on a simple T rig so you may not save on a rig

One issue that has not been discussed on the board is diffraction (http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/diffraction-photography.htm) (I have asked but owners are currently too busy in lolight wonderment)

In theory the great light performance of the FS100 means that you may have light levels to shoot at F11/16/22 a lot to 'gain the illusive 2/3 look'

DIffraction could kill the sharpness or considering that 1080 is hardly sharp (from a stills perspective) it may be a non issue

The AF you with less light hoovering one may not be able to pull this stunt.. but may not need to,


S

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 01:40 PM
On the subject of RnG lenses I have narrowed down to..

nikkor 17-55 for the FS or Nikkor 14-24 for the AF

The price is fairly equal, but the second lens has more uses beyond this camera and is of finer build quality, but somwhat hard to protect

S

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 01:52 PM
According to the calulator on this page.. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm a 3.5mp S35 chipped cam becomes Diffraction limited at F17, considering the loss of contrast one could take a stop for safey and say the FS100 should be good to shoot at F11, unless Im going more mad than usual..

sandersaar
06-01-2011, 02:24 PM
According to the calulator on this page.. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/digital-camera-sensor-size.htm a 3.5mp S35 chipped cam becomes Diffraction limited at F17, considering the loss of contrast one could take a stop for safey and say the FS100 should be good to shoot at F11, unless Im going more mad than usual..

What would you do, if you were me?

morgan_moore
06-01-2011, 02:40 PM
Id evaluate your balance between 'must get now' real life once only shots and shots where you have a little time to put thought and planning into the shot

Think through the implications of doing a lens change including reajustment of the Matte Box you will need (because of the lack of ND on the FS)

Imagine you are doing this handheld in a situation like the street where you are not allowed to put anything down and you have a moody director with you

If your clients can tolerate that faff then get the FS,

The AF will negate the need for a Matte box (and cost)

The EX will negate the need for any of those gizmos

Again if you shoot as part of a multicam team it will change because your FOV maybe predefined

Maybe you can hire an EX when you need one and are being paid

Maybe you want to make indy flicks with you camera at the weekend

You have to choose the right tool for your work/life style

Maybe hang on to your cash until the next wonder cam, maybe understand the value of what the F3/AF100 will bring you in the production/live environment

maybe try and pick up a vid cam for $1000 having sold you DSLR...

I really dont know what I should do, let alone you !

MattDavis
06-02-2011, 01:27 AM
Another random thought:

The EX1R has the following which FS does *not*:
- Intervalometer (timelapse)
- Slow shutter (which, used with above = wonderful timelapse)
- Cache Record
- Good lens built in & always 'ENG' ready
- Remote zoom control on tripod pan bar
- Easy chromakey even considering 4:2:0 nature of rushes (FS may be fine, tho')
- Handles low light to bright light, within seconds
- 'Infinite' record times using A/B card swaps
- Absolutely fine as a 'working alone' camera

If all my gear was lost and I'd have to start again, I'd start with an EX1R because of the kind of work I do. It's handled everything I've asked it, and my frustrations with it are only to do with wide angle shots, talking heads (except chromakey) and beauty shots. I've had a DSLR to do all that over the last year, and it's delivered, but the WB, shot duration, viewfinder fogging and camera overheating issues are killing me.

But in order to get a big-sensor kit to do what the EX1R does, I have to travel with two bodies (FS100 and T2i), two power systems (with issues over charging late into the night), so I can get timelapse and stills from the T2i, and everything else from the FS100. It also means travelling with four heavy lenses: Tokina 11-16, Canon 2.8 17-55, 50mm 1.4, 70-200 2.8. Then there's the issue of no zooming during a shot, no 'zoom in, focus, zoom out' with most lenses... these are the 'costs' associated with the Shallow DoF look.

I have a feeling you're going to go FS100, but the EX1R is still a wonderful instrument, and a cheap little T2i added soon afterwards may treat you better than it did me. For me, let's say... the T2i has paid for its self and has earned enough to be replaced with an FS100, so I currently have the luxury of having both. You may find that, if you went this route, your T2i or 60D might earn you enough to replace it with an FS100 next year?

But the bottom line is - your choice.

morgan_moore
06-02-2011, 04:26 AM
Our OP has a DSLR already I think.

Me? Im thinking to just buy the FS100 and Keep the EX1 - I cant afford it but so be it

S

olindacat
06-02-2011, 11:57 AM
On the subject of RnG lenses I have narrowed down to..

nikkor 17-55 for the FS or Nikkor 14-24 for the AF

The price is fairly equal, but the second lens has more uses beyond this camera and is of finer build quality, but somwhat hard to protect

S

The 14-24 has way better build quality. I have the 17-55. It is very handy, but wish I had known better when I got the DX2 that FF would be coming down the pike.

morgan_moore
06-02-2011, 12:28 PM
Indeed Ive avoided DX lenses (apart from the 10.5) thus far but at some point covering the whole (FF) sensor becomes too much of a design compromise in this RnG lens range

You can also see the compromise in getting a bit more tele - see the size of cine lenses like the Red 18-80

Can you tell me if the 17-55 extends and goes floppy like a canon 24-105 when it is at 55


Or is is a fixed lenghth like the 14-24 24-70

this is important because I want to zoom without bashing into my ND ! (this is wh I think this might be 'the' FS100 RnG lens

Also how is the focus travel ?

Thanks

S

Andrew S
06-02-2011, 02:51 PM
Personally l thing the corporate and event market is moving to the more shallower depth of field eg a sexier look for the same market as bog standard EX1r, lve had EX1 - EX1r at present Canon FX305 and FX 105 all fab cameras, but there just tools. Its the look that counts and being professional. I think in 6 months or a year the guys with the new look super sensors will win out on the commissions over the old. The writing on the wall. Have an option on the FS100 for next week and l guess its about 90% certain l'll go for it.

Got so great Nikon manual lenses, NDs no problem just get Genus ND filter with various step down rings.

I also think that big zooms from 28mm to 528mm eg canon though fab, don't really help the creative view point.

dop16mm
06-03-2011, 01:38 PM
Although not considered great, the 18-200 kit zoom is probably good enough to emulate the 'video look' of a small chip camera, combined with the insane low light capabilities, this should work for the less controlled situations. and then with good primes you can achieve the cinema look with the same camera package. You'll have to consider what your shooting style is, if you absolutely need a smooth power zoom then you need a real video cam. If you can get away with losing part of a shot to reframing, then you can work with a large chip camera with a cheap zoom. I personally never use a zoom as part of a shot if I can avoid it, I'll cut it out if possible, just because I don't like the style, even if it is live. For important things it is best to have two cameras anyway.

olindacat
06-03-2011, 11:02 PM
Can you tell me if the 17-55 extends and goes floppy like a canon 24-105 when it is at 55

Or is is a fixed lenghth like the 14-24 24-70

this is important because I want to zoom without bashing into my ND ! (this is wh I think this might be 'the' FS100 RnG lens

No wobble but the inner barrel does extend out past the outer barrel at wider and longer lengths....


Also how is the focus travel ?S

a little more than a quarter turn


Thanks

thank you! I love reading of your posts!