HVX200 & P2 - it is THE revolution

[stephenvv]

I've been wading through much of the HVX200 info/threads here, plus the Jarred's and Barry's nice reports and other stuff around the web and from my view, the conclusion is clear. This is design grand slam, a wunderkind, possibly the most revolutionary moving image camera since Pathe 9.5 or 16mm or even Super 8mm.

Of course, they have to actually manufacture a camera that executes this design, but given the DVX100 series and Varicam track record, that's a reasonable safe bet.

PART 1

First, P2 = solid state memory record for motion picture storage. I don't really think people appreciate how big a deal this is. Of course the cost is high to start, but that will change.

People are too hung up on hard disk drive recording. I've been around cameras and disk drives for many years. The reason moving parts disk drives are nothing but a niche solution (barring a forthcoming revolution there) is simple. The record head and medium must be in motion to each other.

Need hard example? Take an iPod or laptop or portable hard drive including a firestore. Get a solid stream of data, even just DV stream, writing steadily to the disk. While it's writing, shake, rattle, drop, leave in 100F degree sun, 0F cold, drop it a few times.

Now examine your data (assuming you did not kill your drive). Hard Disc recording is not the future of motion picture camera storage. I'm typing this on a Thinkpad t41p with shock protection. How does that work? It pauses the drive. Great for protecting a laptop drive, bad for writing a stream of data as the drive will pause as long as the shock continues, so a "record buffer" would not guarantee successful stream recording.

Unless someone design a drive that can reliably write data as solid state, solid state is the revolution.


PART 2

The HVX200 promises a 1080 line full progressive image affordable to the non-professional. This what the 35mm still camera did for photography. DV is no where near the resolution or color fidelity of 35mm film.

HDV involves some really painful compromises in resolution (due to compression of moving images) and provide poor quality color space and audio. HDV-Pro may help a little, but it still looks to me like a consumer format only.

As long as HVX200 does not cheat to much to provide 1080p images, will we all suddenly have the same image resolution that Hollywood has (sure, real 35mm negative has more, but by the time it ends up in your average cineplex or DVD, only 1% of the world (namely us camera geeks) can tell a difference or any.

The only real "advantage" is short DOF but I think that's more aesthetic trend than "advantage".

NON-ISSUES

(1) Interchangeable lenses. This is just Canon (and now JVC) marketing gimmick. As a former XL1 owner of XL1 and all lenses, I quickly realized this was nothing like the real world of my Canon SLR and EF lenses. The simple fact is that no spectrum of lenses exist. The HD100U looks even more ungainly than the XL2 given the staggering price of the wide angle lens.

Panasonic simply realizes that fact. It would be wonderful if there were 50-100 1/3" lenses around, but I don't think it will ever happen. The 13X range of this lens cover 95% of the lens needs. Only nature shooter needing extreme telephoto really benefit by Canon's XL system

(2) P2 Cost

What price is reliable field recording? That sums it all for me. If i miss a shot, I miss a shot. There is no way to make reliable moving disk mechanisms and solid state seems to alway be way ahead of moving recording mediums. Cost will always be somewhat higher, but then again, the difference between getting a shot and losing it is everything.

But it is much cheaper than DVCProHD or HDCAM tape decks (and you really need two of those one in camera, one deck to edit). That's the real revolution. P2 needs to be compared against HD decks, not miniDV decks and storage (like the current firestore etc.)

(3) XL3, ZR2 et al.

This camera is bigger deal than the DVX series. Panasonic has spent years working on DVC-Pro/HD, P2, 24p, Variable frame rates and it all pays off here. I don't expect Sony or Canon or anyone else to be able to compete here for some time unless they license Panny's tech. Despite the speed tech is moving today, it still takes years to develop new platforms. Panny has done that and the HVX200 is their (and our) reward.

BONUSES

(1) Slow-Motion. Even in pro HD, this is still the holy grail. To think of having access to this before many other pros get it, that rocks

(2) 4 tracks uncompressed audio. What a wonderful addition for narrative and doc shoots.

(3) A ton of user driven design changes (the 4:3 LCD moving status off the image being my favorite)

BOTTOM LINE

This is the camera. When is EVS going to take pre-orders? :grin:

[Rush]

Hey Stephen, we are taking "pre-orders" but they are really more a committment list than anything else, since we don't even have pricing yet. We create an order for the customer, cancellable anytime, and that automatically puts you in a wait list queue (goes by the item code).

When the prices are emailed to us from Panasonic, I will call each customer and let them know what the the DVXuser discount is, and see if they are still interested.

When the cameras come in, I call each customer and see if they are still game, and then ship the oldest orders first. If we get 5 cameras for 7 orders, the oldest 5 ship first. Kinda like pre-orders... I just have a feeling this camera is going to be hot, not just because of the features, but because I already have secured orders for it, with no pricing and no camera yet. That's a new one for me.... :)

[alpi69]

P2 is the weak link. you can have a 2GB P2 card and never need anything else. IF the shot didn´t work....you have it cacherecorded on the P2. but otherwise i guess 90% of users will try a different solution (USB stick/drive etc).

[Jaime Valles]

P2 is the weak link. you can have a 2GB P2 card and never need anything else. IF the shot didn´t work....you have it cacherecorded on the P2. but otherwise i guess 90% of users will try a different solution (USB stick/drive etc).

Actually, you need at least the 4GB P2 card. The 2GB apparently won't record HD. 4 & 8 GB P2 cards can record in HD.

That said, I agree that the HVX, and P2 in particular, is going to change everything. I am seriously drooling over the idea of 1080/24p on a P2 8GB card. 2006 is going to be a good year!

[Zig_Zigman]

I was saving up for an Aaton a-minima but this cam might just do the trick.

[Bart_Boge]

The HVX200 reminds me of the Alesis ADAT circa 1991.

Prior to the release of the ADAT, pro audio recording at 44.1/16bit for, let's say, 48 tracks, was only available at BIG studios. The decks alone cost in the neighborhood of a $quarter million (I seem to remember that the Sony deck used to record Michael Jackson's "Thriller" CD in 1984 cost that much).

Alesis releases an 8-track 44.1/16bit deck--using VHS tapes as media--for $4k. Suddenly, a 48 track studio at full CD resolution was $24k, not $250k. WOW. Bands start buying their own machines and making their own music without studio control or oversight, or the unblinking eye of the billable hours clock. Of course, proper recording techniques, good mics, well designed rooms, and performance/arrangement factors remained unchanged, so some very hi-fi crap was and is being recorded, but the barriers have now been completely obliterated for those who want to express their creativity and are willing to do the homework to make production values equal the medium now available to them.

So it is with the HVX200. 1080p used to mean a Sony CineAlta for $100k with no lenses. Now it means completely outfitted for less than $10k. Sure, they are not apples-to-apples comparable, but in the hands of the skillful DP who hangs around sites like this one to learn the idosyncracies of the HVX (getting the most DOF, color cheats, etc) and knows the basics of frame composition, lighting, camera movement, etc., this camera is nothing short of revolutionary. It spells the end of studio control over what gets "green-lighted" for HD production.

All the other elements of production (production design, sets, lighting, directing, acting, story) are still the same, still crucial to the final outcome, and still expensive. But giving the means of production (to borrow a Commie term) to the masses, the power of the industry becomes increasingly democracized and decentralized. Good for us, comrades!

[Barry_Green]

P2 is the weak link.
Only people who haven't worked with it will say that. Once you try it, you'll change your mind to say "P2 is the REVOLUTION".

Everyone seems to be saying "how can we avoid it" -- when they should be embracing it. P2 is to tape what the word processor was to the typewriter. It's revolutionary.

[Gary_McClurg]

On the HVX pdf file on page 8 you can see on the camera's flip out monitor that it has several take numbers (guessing) on each clip and time code.

So when you start and stop the recording of the camera does it automatically make each shot its own file?

If so that'll be nice when you load them into your NLE.

I did read that you could mark circle takes.

[Antoine_Fabi]

I think it just depends on your workflow.
For a non stop 2 hrs shooting...OK..it is not good.
But for anything else you would work the same as with 16mm or 35mm, then...
IT IS A MAJOR REVOLUTION.

It certainly WILL be my 1rst choice for 30 sec. TV adv.

[Barry_Green]

So when you start and stop the recording of the camera does it automatically make each shot its own file?

If so that'll be nice when you load them into your NLE.

I did read that you could mark circle takes.
Yes, your understanding is correct.

[Gary_McClurg]

Thanks Barry.

[Antoine_Fabi]

...then...even more revolutionary !

[stephenvv]

Hey Stephen, we are taking "pre-orders" but they are really more a committment list than anything else, since we don't even have pricing yet.

I sent you an email:thumbsup:

Unless Panasonic delivers a complete dog of engineering mess, I will be getting one. Once Barry/Jarred have seen stable footage and after the 48 Hour Film Festival here in Greensboro, I will hawk my DVX100a. It has been a great cam, but since I shoot mostly 24fps 16:9 shorts for projection on large screens, I can't imagine any reason I would NOT want this camera...

[Wiyum]

It certainly WILL be my 1rst choice for 30 sec. TV adv.

Really? I'm excited as Hell for the camera, but my first choice will still be 35mm, followed by S16, 16, Varicam, and then CineAlta. It'll be a great camera, and the best "affordable" camera out there, bar none. But your first choice for commercial work? That's going some...

Will

[Rush]

I sent you an email

Got it Stephen! Believe it or not, the pre-order list has already grown to 12 orders. I must admit, that camera seems like it is going to be the star of many shows in '06. Boy I can't wait to see some footage. :thumbsup:

[Rosestar]

I was saving up for an Aaton a-minima but this cam might just do the trick.

I think that the Aaton a-minima is the camera that should be shakeing in its boots, along with every other 16mm camera availble.

It is obvious, in the debates the HVX has started, who has grown up being a "filmmaker", using Daddys camcorder and those who have actually shot film. If downloading a P2 card to an off the shelf HDD seems like a chore, I would advise shooting a day with a Bolex and haveing to deal with 100" daylight loading spools.

The HVX is a filmmakers camera. I believe that Revolution is not strong enough of a word to describe what this camera is going to mean. Talk about the democratization of media!!

Take a look at some of the recent movies shot on DV that have been given a theatrical release, Chuck and Buck, Aniversary Party, TimeCode, Open Water, 28 Days Latter. Now imagine these movies shot on 1080/24p. I saw all of these films on the big screen and after every one, I heard comments, from normal folk, not us camera geeks, about the about the image quality of the DV to film transfer. While most folks liked the movies, the image quality garnered negative responses in many instances. While it wills good as shooting in 35mm film, I think that the HVX will be better, I hope alot better, than DV. I also believe that it will be much better than HDV.

I shoot low budget films, querrilla style and was weened on "Feature Filmmaking at Used Car Prices", the book by Rick Schmitt. In the book (first edition anyway) 16mm was chosen for cost vs image quality and for the possibity of a blow-up. In intervinign years, DV has supplanted 16mm (for cost reasons) at a huge comprimise in image quality. The HVX, IMO will raise the bar in image quality for the querrilla filmmaker and I hope that a lot more of them will be playing at the local cineplex (or at least the nearest art house).

God bless Panasonic.