Daylight Fluros instead of worklights?

[lev]

Hi people!

I've read a lot of stuff on here about budget lighting and people using 500/1000w worklights with showerscreens and being generally quite inventive.

My question is, seeing that Kinos are being used more and more, what would be the major problem getting a 4-tube fluro panel from the hardware store and fitting it with daylight-balanced tubes? Being fluros you'd start off with a softer light, less heat and lower power consumption. They'd be bigger as they're quite tall obviously.

I haven't gone out to purchase this stuff, mainly because I haven't seen any posts about doing this. Seems everyone on a budget runs out to get worklights (which I have also done).

Can anyone tell me the problems I'd run into taking this route? Worklights and showerscreens scare me :cheesy:

Cheers

Lev...

[MattinSTL]

Lev... I've experimented extensively with this. Lowe's carries a shoplight made by "Lights of America" and it says right on the box "ELECTRONIC BALLAST"... That shoplight will give you the best results of any of these choices... and it's under $20. If you want to pump this option up then get some aluminum tape for around $7 and you can mirror the inside of this fixture. Home Depot carries a "Diamond Plate" shop light that looks really slick, but isn't real diamond plate... it's still pressed steel with a mirrored finish... that light is $25. Okay then if you want to do it right you want barndoors and you want to be free to position the light where it works best. Barndoors can be accomplished with black foam core... and it will snug behind the mounted tubes on either side giving you a giant softbox effect. To mount this to a stand and position it you need a Manfrotto umbrella holder and a Manfrotto 5/8" stud plate... better still is the stud plate with the adjustable angle... Finally the connectors for these shop lights... and all the other flo lights... SUCK. You can buy a set of German 3-Piece End Caps for $10 per pair from www.marinedepot.com and you'll be WAY happier and the tubes will stay secure.

Hmm... that about do it? I think it do.

[powerdog]

Are you talking about hardware store tubes or actual Kino tubes? There's a difference, including the price!

I can tell you that I LOVE the 4-tube Mole Biax I got. It's dimmable, and I adjust it using zebra. It pretty much guarantees me good interview footage regardless of the environment I'm shooting in. Also great is that it doesn't overheat my subjects, and it can be put away almost immediately after I"m done.

[MattinSTL]

powerdog... I'm talking about using Kino's True Match T12 tubes... the one's that will fit in the type of fixture that lev is describing. I'm just trying to give the guy a cheap option that's worked for me over the last couple years...

I've got a couple Mole Tweenies... so you don't have to sell me on the quality of MR gear.

Also the dimming feature in the flos you have is what makes 'em so great. I've been working on an affordable flo lighting system for guys that can't afford the top brands... something to get the job done with the same light and effectiveness of a Diva or MR light. Since you jumped in and mentioned that you have that MR... could you take a close look at the 2G11 sockets... the red push-button socket where the lights connect... and tell me if you see any manufacturer identification of any kind? It will be subtley marked... like a barely molded in name. Kino, MR, and now a new company called FloLight (www.flolight.com) are using them. The next time I use a Diva I'm going to break one down to get this info... but you'd be doing me a great favor if you can give me a jump on that.

I've tried to be really helpful to the forum members over in the audio section... but that's nothing compared to what I've got up my sleeve for lighting...

[pmark23]

Osram (Sylvania in the US) makes a daylight lamp with a CRI of 90 -- they're used by many European studios. Inexpensive too. Lumilux De Luxe Daylight 950. They have a 3200K lamp as well, the "Warm White" 930.

BTW: Does anyone happen to know the luminous flux figures of Kino or other tubes?

[HorseFilms]

Look around. You can find some nice quality lamps for pretty cheap. I found a 6500K lamp with a CRI of 94 for $7 at a hardware store. It works great.

[kplo]

MattinSTL:
I've built some units using the Lights of America fluotecs. Aluminum tape won't work for very long...the adhesive can't stand up to the heat (yes, there is some) generated. I've used Roscoflex (Soft for an even spread) with a contact cement adhesive. This really holds up and increases the light output from 30 footcandles at 5 feet to over 55 footcandles.
Adding a Rosco mirror finish lined "hood/softbox" to further concentrate the light yields over 100 footcandles at 5 feet. This is with a 65w 6500k bulb!
As you indicate, mounting these to a standard 5/8" spud is the trickiest part.
However, it is a great light, and 10 of 'em only draws the same juice as a single 650!

[MattinSTL]

Kplo... the tape I'm referring to is right next to the aluminum foiled bubble wrap for wrapping a hot water heater... again at Home Depot. You can't peel this stuff off if you tried... and it's as shiny as aluminum foil. It's been on my home-built flos for two years now and it's still "welded" on.

Powerdog... you gonna' help a brother out? What's the manufacturer's mark on those sockets... on the MR flo you're using?

[Jim Brennan]

I use a LOA 48" 2 bulb fixture, and I just use sheet metal screws and put two clamps on the back that you would use to hang up garden tools; the same os on a grafflight. I clip them on to a boom and can get them just about anywhere I want.

As far as tubes go, I have found it a lot easier to find high CRI daylight balanced tubes at hardware stores than halogen balanced ones. The best I could find was 86 CRI at 3K.

[MattinSTL]

Four foot Kino tubes come in 5600k, 3200k, and 2900k... and they come complete with shatterproof plastic if you like... all for $25 per tube. 95 CRI. I've got about a dozen of each of them in my garage right now.

[powerdog]

Here's what I could find on the Moles, and I'm afraid a manufacturer name wasn't visible to me. (My eyes are over 50 y.o.) Facing the slots, the highest line of embossing includes a few little symbols and "T140". Below that, above the left screw is "1327" and above right screw is "26726". Below that second number is a small oval with something in it. This is the best I could do with a magnifying glass and good light.

[MattinSTL]

Thanks powerdog... it'll probably take me a while to get this info sanded down to the metal... but I found a page that listed a design award for a type 1327 base as designed by Hermann Mellert GMBH & Co... in Germany... and it refers to "2G11"... which is the 4-pin configuration that the Mole lamps use. Think that's my part? I'll bet it is... but I can't find a way to get to the company via the web...

I'll crack this nut... thanks for giving me the nutcracker.

[powerdog]

Matt, I'm a habitual Web detective. Found the Mellert website, which led me to this site for info on their lamp fixtures. You'll find some downloadable info sheets on fluo fixtures. (After wading through a lot of Flash crap.)

http://www.bjb.de/wlcs/application

The other site is at:

http://www.mellert.de/

Again, lots of Flash, then a link on the right to Lampholders.

[Rosestar]

I have been using 48" two tube hanging fluro lights from Home Depot which I paid $7 for. With a 6500 K, 91CRI T-12 bulb I have no problem using this for daylight fill. However, I have seen some green tinting in white objects which I correct in post with no problem. I have made it a habit of shooting a white reference for every lighting set-up, instead of white balancing to the fluros. This really helps out in post.
Kino Flo bulbs are actually Optima bulbs and are made by several manufactures, including Sylvania. The tungsten bulbs are Optima 32s (3200K) and the daylight bulbs are Optima 55s ( 5500K). I have seen them on-line for as little as $16 apiece, instead of the $25 quoted above. I don't see any reason to pay $9 apiece for Kino Flos name. The Optima bulbs are used a lot in graphic arts and for display lighting, where color rendition is important.
What has me excited now is the compact fluros, including the type that screw into standard sockets. They're light output to power used is excellent, which helps when you can't get a genny or do a tie-in. I have added about 10 of the clamp-on sockets, with reflectors (real cheap from Home Depot) to my kit and am using them more and more.
A place on the web, naturallighting.com.com has series of high output fluros that I am dying to experiment with. From the specs they have 65 watt, 6000K light that have the light output of a 500 watt incandescent! This would make budget night exteriors much easier. I also am interested in testing aquarium lighting, which uses 55 watt u-shaped fluros. I understand that Sylvania makes bulbs for these lights that are 3200K and 5500K, they call them the Studioline bulbs. If anyone has any info on compact fluros or the studioline lights please share it.

[MattinSTL]

Powerdog... okay I guess it's time for me to get serious about my lighting designs... I gotta' buy TWO HUNDRED AND FIFTY of those sockets as a minimum.

Holy Sh*t... I hope there exists the market that I predict for affordable location flos.

[Fitz]

I got a guestion about those 4 foot kino tubes you've been talking about. At home depot they always have T12 and T8 fixtures. T12s are magnetic ballasts that operate at 60Hz (and can be used for film work if you are using a 1/60 shutter speed or shooting at 30 fps) and T8 fixtures that have high frequency electronic ballasts that should work at most shutter speeds and fps. The connectors on T8s and T12s are the same but the bulbs are a diferent diamiters and take different wattages (32 watts for a 4' T8 and 40 watts for a 4' T12) Can those Kino T12s be used in T8 fixtures or will the ballast make them underpowered or is it like Tungsten lights where the lamp determins the wattage?

[MattinSTL]

The only fixtures I've found that use an electronic ballast and take T12 bulbs are the Lowe's shoplights that SAY electronic ballast.

[dop16mm]

T12 and T8 are completely different animals and only work with the appropriate ballasts. As for daylight tubes I've been having good luck with ones marked sunshine, they are 5000k and labled full spectrum, I haven't noticed any green spike. The daylight spiral screw-in bulbs are the same color. Both home depot. They are also available in T8 for half the price of T12. You can modify a shop light to use T8 by changing the ballast and following the diagram on the ballast for how the ends loop.

Reguarding building the cheap T-5 biax fixture, you might want to start with a commercial fixture and change the ballast to match the film style tubes. The 55w color balanced tubes are the same physical size as the 40w commercial tubes. I have a couple that started life as commercial track lights, heavy duty metal body, mirror finish reflector. The tubes that came for it are not a bad match for tungsten so I haven't upgraded yet. Check out the lighting supply catalogues at your local electrical wholesaler ( where the electricians go to shop) You can find just about anything you could want. Remember film is a tiny fraction of the bulb makers market, most everything that hollywood uses is available elsewhere, just comes in different fixtures.

[J.R. Hudson]

I'm all for the guerilla appraoch; but how about some grabs of the lights in action?

[Stanrick_Kubley]

Also, is there a formal tutorial somewhere for building homestyle kinos? If not, could we put one together?

I'd like to build some myself, but I'm a doofus at building, and don't even ask me to do anything electical.

[MattinSTL]

I'm all for the guerilla appraoch; but how about some grabs of the lights in action?

John... this probably 'aint what you had in mind... but here's a short clip which I lit using just one of my Matt-o-flos from 10' away. There is NO other light source in this clip... just the one light. CLICK (http://www.gettreel.com/My%20Favorite%20Cheap%20Boom%20Holder.wmv)

As soon as I get a few of my sale-able lights done I'll post all sorts of stuff about 'em. They are really coming together nicely. I think my initial lights will be a little more heavy duty then the next batch... I'm using diamond plate aluminum for the shells. The first 14 lights will be made in a slightly thicker gauge... when I was in the warehouse I thought that the .063 felt like it could be too thin... and .080 is really hard to find, but I found some... normally the jump goes to .100... so anyway, my shells at .080 will be 1.24 pounds per square foot vs. 1.04 on the next batch. I just unwrapped yet another tool yesterday for cutting out the endcaps...

Stay tuned... they're coming.

[tim_brown]

Keep up the good work Matt!

I went to NAB for the expressed purpose of finding a high quality low cost fluro solution that would give me the light of say a Joker 200 in a Chimera for the price of.... say the Lights of America fixtures that are available at Lowes. I know, I know.... asking way too much for way too little, but I did find a few value priced products from Taiwan and am waiting on information from them. When I have a chance, I'm going to do a brief write-up on all the new products coming to the market but I'm still waiting on most of the pricing materials.

One thing I did notice is that the price point for the new fluro's seems to be at about the $700 to $750 price range. My thoughts are if you can come up with a similar product priced a little better, you should have a hot item due to the interest in the lower-cost fluros at NAB.

-Tim

[Rosestar]

Thanks, Tim. Has anyone heard of a light I think is called the "Georky". I know I screwed up the spelling, but I am, being a "Hooked Phonics" sucess story that it is pronounce that way.
They look like some very interesting lights.

[PDX_DVX]

Could someone remind me what an acceptable CRI rating is? and if the T12 is ok to use for video?

[J.R. Hudson]

HI PDX

It is my understanding that you want to shoot for (No Pun) over 90; although I have heard people use some in the 80's. Obviously with the CRI goal being the truest CRI as possible but with todays POST tools and Color Correction styles one can have some leeway on this?

MattinSTL

Thanks for sharing that; it looked good! :)

[PDX_DVX]

The thought of being able to do something similar to a Kinoflo is awsome. I am seriously considering trying to put something together. My hope is that I could put a kit together that would draw alot less power than my 500w work lights, so that I could possibly use it with a small honda generator that I have access to:

http://www.hondapowerequipment.com/ModelDetail.asp?ModelName=eu1000i

I do alot of mountain bike video type stuff, and being able to setup some lights at the local dirt jump spot or even at some trails could add alot to the production. What's the difference between the T12 and T8 lights? And what lamps that have a CRI of 80+ could be used with the "lights of america" fixture mentioned above?

[Stanrick_Kubley]

May be old news, but here's an interesting link:
http://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/FL-Lights.htm

[J.R. Hudson]

I found this sound bite:

"Fluorescent lights are identified by their T-measure. The T-measure is the measure of the diameter of the light in eighth of an inch. Thus, a T12 fluorescent light is twelve-eighths of an inch (or 1-1/2 inches) in diameter, T10 is ten-eighths of an inch (or 1-1/4 inches) in diameter, and T8 is eight-eighths of an inch (or 1 inch) in diameter.

T12 Lights - Energy efficient T12 lights use about 15 percent less energy than standard fluorescent without a noticeable decrease in light level. For example, a standard 40-watt F40 fluorescent can be replaced by a 34-watt F40 fluorescent.

T10 Lights - T10 lights typically contain phosphors which produce high efficacy and color rendition. They will operate on most ballasts designed for T12 lights.

T8 Lights - T8 lights produce an efficacy of up to 100 lumens per watt, the highest efficacy of any fluorescent light. They will not operate on standard ballasts rated for T12 lights. T8 lights use less of the toxic materials found in larger fluorescent lights, They require a T8 compatible ballast to operate."

One thing to consider (at least I have considered it) is using one of those DC/AC converters that plug into your car? For location shots of INT car shots abank like the one were talking about could just be plugged right in. Anyone know if this is feasible? (Wattage/Voltage?)

I have seen the Faux Diamond Plate fixtures and they are shiny; they look good and would definatley work as far as bounce and spread. We gotta figure out a good way for Barndoors though to control the light; maybe some sheetmetal type contraption?

[PDX_DVX]

I think it could be possible with some small guage aluminum sheet metal painted with flat BBQ paint. All it would take would be some creative adaptation of pivot points on both ends. Either that or you could use that "piano hinge" type stuff and run it along the whole edge. Using aluminum would be good because it would reduce weight.

[J.R. Hudson]

Exactly what I was thinking.

[PDX_DVX]

It wouldnt be very hard to make, especially with small guage sheet metal. All you need is some various self tapping sheet metal screws, some tin snips, and files/sand paper to smooth the edges of the cut metal. A sheet metal sheer would be even better, but you could get by just fine with tin snips. In the future when I get some DIY flouro experiments going, I might try some and will deffinetly post up pics.

[pmark23]

Thanks, Tim. Has anyone heard of a light I think is called the "Georky". I know I screwed up the spelling, but I am, being a "Hooked Phonics" sucess story that it is pronounce that way.
They look like some very interesting lights.

You're probably thinking "Gyoury (http://www.meansst.com/gyoury/default.htm)".

Neat lights, though pricey.


Also, I noticed that lamps (at least European/Asian ones) are starting to use the nomenclature "XYY", where X is the CRI, and Y is the colour temperature. For example, "950" for a high-CRI daylight-balanced lamp. "830" for a low-CRI halogen-balanced lamp.

Osram/Sylvania for sure uses this, though I noticed some other manufacturers using this as well (sometimes these numbers are buried with other numbers, which can make them hard to find).

So if these specs aren't listed on the box, take a look at the glass -- maybe you'll get lucky.

[Rosestar]

[QUOTE=John_Hudson]I found this sound bite:
One thing to consider (at least I have considered it) is using one of those DC/AC converters that plug into your car? For location shots of INT car shots abank like the one were talking about could just be plugged right in. Anyone know if this is feasible? (Wattage/Voltage?)[QUOTE

I have used to 12volt invertors quit a lot, they work great for lighiting in a car. The largest one I have found that does not need to be hard wired in is a 300w invertor. This is why the fluros are so promising, the light output to wattage is higher. Also, these things are cheap, I paid about $40 bucks for the 300w one four years ago. Watch out though, they will run a battery down pretty quick, have good jumper calbles around.

[Ernest_Acosta]

Matt, good info. I also think that Flos cost too much cash. I'm also waiting for some one to come up with a Fresnel HMI fixture (wishful thinking). Anyway, is this the fixture you are referring to?

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=133982-57299-8055SS&category=15&lpage=none&bc=c

[Barry_Green]

Fairly cheap HMIs existed briefly -- the Britek Dayphotos. Weren't fresnel though, they were open-face, and the bulbs have a green cast to 'em so you have to either white-balance to them or use some MinusGreen gel on 'em.

HMI fresnels don't cost *that* much on ebay (used, of course), I've gotten a few in the $500 neighborhood for 575w/magnetic ballast. You really need something more like at least a 1200w PAR for outdoors work, but for lighting indoors and balancing against a window or something the 575's work.

[MattinSTL]

Ernest, yeah those are the lights. It's very misleading how they say stainless steel though... I even thought that on the original boxes when I bought 'em. They 'aint stainless steel... what isn't depicted in the ad is the tiny word "finish" under the words "stainless steel." The thing is painted gray.

I hate to be cocky... but anybody looking for cheap flos should give me about one more week. My fixtures are rapidly nearing completion. I'll have to see just what it really cost me to make each one... but I expect to offer a single biax version (ideal for interviews) for under $175.

I'm going to do the math on each of 3 models as I complete them... and I'm going to do everything possible to get the cost down. I'm working to get the cheapest model done first.

[Rosestar]

You're probably thinking "Gyoury (http://www.meansst.com/gyoury/default.htm)".

Neat lights, though pricey..

Thanks, Gyoury lights. These lights are twin tube fluoros that us a 2G11 (German) base. I saw a set-up for these bulbs on an aquiarium supply website but now can not find the site. Has anyone seen a place to get the 2G11 lights with wireing harness and ballast. I think that they would be very useful lights, but I do not want to spend a grand for the a set of Gyoury lights.

[rcampbel]

Matt,

I am very much looking forward to see what you have come up with. I had looked at building some biax lights using aquarium kits, but never got around to doing it. So far, the closest thing that I have found at a reasonable price is the Prompter People Flo-1400 at http://www.flolight.com/. No barndoors, but looks like it would be good as a large soft light.

However, I am going to wait and see what you have. I wish you luck!

[Ernest_Acosta]

Thanks Barry and Matt. Matt I am going to wait and see what you've come up with. I am very much interested in purchasing some Flo type fixtures. Barry I think you or someone else had mentioned to process of dealing with a magnetic ballast as opposed to an electronic one. Can you refresh me in how to use them shooting 24P? I've seen fixtures on Ebay from Pyramid Films but was hesitant to purchase them because of the magnetic ballast.

[Barry_Green]

Magnetic ballasts work fine with 24p; what you have to watch out for is when using them with high shutter speeds. If you're working with 1/48 or 1/60 it's fine; we tried using them with 1/250 and 1/1000 and that didn't work, they cycle and pulse very noticeably. But at regular speeds they work just fine.

[Shawn Murphy]

I hate to be cocky... but anybody looking for cheap flos should give me about one more week. My fixtures are rapidly nearing completion. I'll have to see just what it really cost me to make each one... but I expect to offer a single biax version (ideal for interviews) for under $175.


Hey matt, why do I have ten browser windows open looking at things like:

http://www.lightsofamerica.com/wl.htm

http://216.117.185.2/de/2005/productdetail.php?iid=49

http://www.lightyears2.com/ImagesLight/FS64R.JPG

"Add our dimming upgrade and a control. 4000 lumens, 98 CRI, 70 watts. Universal multi-voltage electronic ballast 120 to 277v - 50 or 60Ø"

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=20594&page=7&pp=10&highlight=fluorescent+worklight

[MattinSTL]

Shawn... all I can say is I'm sorry I spoke WAY too soon on these things. Several of the little bits I'm using took 3 weeks to get here... when they should have taken 3 days.

Up until last week I was spending every dime I made on these lights! My normal lifestyle includes making more in the summer and less in the winter... and so in summer I'm able to add/upgrade parts of my AV kit... and this year I haven't changed/bought anything but light stuff (with my disposable income)... so I've kicked the lights to the back burner for a week as I've been researching another wireless set...

Another challenge was fastening the components together. Being your typical guy... I figured I'd just get the best quality nylon locknuts and bolts to get things together, but that raised an issue because throughout the construction I usually can't get to one side (things get built from the inside out)... and then I finally submitted to the idea that I'd have bolt heads showing in places I didn't have to... but I didn't like that idea, so after thinking about how to fasten two or three things together, by accessing only ONE side, the obvious solution dawned on me. RIVETS. So now I'm using Textron Cherry rivets with a nice pneumatic system which draws things up REALLY well and is much more attractive. These rivets are the same ones used on practically every aircraft out there. With thousands of rivet choices... do you know why I chose these? (because they're the best of course!) If I'd grasped the rivet concept a week earlier I'd have 10 lights done last week...

Okay excuse number 2-B... I've also been fighting burn-out. I wanted suggestions from everybody and I appreciate the input... but as you may imagine, everybody would like to see everything integrated on a light that's supposed to compete (in price) with lights that have almost NOTHING added for the videographer. Trying to do everything and keep it cheap has been burning me out. I actually bought one of the small work lights that you posted, but mine looked a little better... it was called "The Designer's Edge"... and that's not a bad idea, but the light quality is iffy and the color temp is really high (which isn't a problem 'cause you can WB, but the light quality is not on par with a Kino or other "real" video light)... also notice that it's nothing but a light... many of the DIY solutions are just light sources and that's it... and often they're of low light quality. I got an email pointing to a worklight that www.naturallighting.com (http://www.naturallighting.com) sold for around $300... and it didn't do anything... just a light on a stand... I don't understand why people point to something like that...

I'm also a little concerned that I didn't factor in a beta period... so I'll probably only sell a dozen or so lights at first... and that way I won't have too many out there if I have to make mods... so realize that if you buy an early light you MIGHT have to send it back to me for a mod (but realistically I doubt it)...

[Shawn Murphy]

Dude, great work! ...my intention was really just a bit of sarcasm about how we jonez over DIY stuff, I already knew you were behind (due to high standards!) from your other thread.

[Shawn Murphy]

...take a peek at THIS (click here and scroll down) (http://www.gettreel.com/ideas.htm) and you'll see that I've got more then a few I'm planning to do at once.



What are you using for a crane in that vid/clip on your page, make/model/DIY? and how many ft?

[MattinSTL]

That's a home-made crane that an online buddy made. I forgot that clip was there... it's been there for over a year and I haven't even talked to that guy in about as long. I've seen a lot of good work done with home-made cranes/jib-arms... naturally that's another project I want to get started on... [sigh]...

[Shaw]

Building a crane is actually much easier than it looks! I was surprised. I'm nearly finished building a crane myself and it has only taken minimal effort and cost less than $100 easily. Now when I add a remote electronic pan and tilt head that will jack up the pricing ;).