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morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 11:16 AM
Some silly questions about the camera..

-does it have an internal mic

(I see this as useful for synch audio only)

===

the codec

what is the pain level in transcoding for editing in FCP

====

S

NeedCreative
05-24-2011, 11:59 AM
1) no (but it comes with an XLR shotgun).
2) same as with any AVCHD - Log and Transfer to ProRes

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 12:05 PM
1) hmm a crap mic like on the EX1 or canon DSLR would be good !

2)

I have no experiecne of AVCHD , Ive only ever shot two cams EX1 and canon DSLR(s)

Im a newb to editing..
(either H264->.prores via stream clip (canon) or XDcam unwrapped)

I dont L+T at the mo - just get my prores or XD clips and drag it into a 'Bin' in FCP

Basically will I need a time consuming process (like a tracnscoding a DSLR) or be editing in 2 mins from getting the clips on my pooter (EX1)

Thanks

S

olindacat
05-24-2011, 12:06 PM
Nobody is asking sillier Qs than me :-) I know it ships w/a shotgun mic, and I suppose the 'pain' is somewhat dictated by your hardware. What kind of computer do you have?

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 12:09 PM
another 'dumb' question

how does gain equate to ISO

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 12:11 PM
Nobody is asking sillier Qs than me :-) I know it ships w/a shotgun mic, and I suppose the 'pain' is somewhat dictated by your hardware. What kind of computer do you have?

I have a mac 10.5.8, 2GHz 6 gig of ram, probably 5 years old and FCP

there is no pain with the EX1, Im editing in two mins

S

mico
05-24-2011, 12:16 PM
In about a month the new FCP will come out and the transcode will happen in the background while you use the avchd to edit immediately.

For now a prores transcode from AVCHD is the best option.

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 12:19 PM
.. which will take similar time to the DSLR workflow?

olindacat
05-24-2011, 12:22 PM
another 'dumb' question

how does gain equate to ISO

I'm not pro, but as I understand it the baseline 0 gain on the FS100 is 800ISO, which is why it is very good in low light, I think.

olindacat
05-24-2011, 12:23 PM
I have a mac 10.5.8, 2GHz 6 gig of ram, probably 5 years old and FCP

there is no pain with the EX1, Im editing in two mins

S

Supposedly the new FCPX will take advantage of lots of RAM which is cheap now. Maybe buy some for a boost.

NeedCreative
05-24-2011, 12:31 PM
Yes you must transcode (recommended to ProRes but you can use anything), yes the workflow is similar to DSLR that needs the same transcode (in FCP), Yes the native ISO of the chip has been reported at roughly 800 and is extremely good in low light (see www.philipbloom.net (http://www.philipbloom.net) for examples, he did a detailed real-world test recently - similar to F3, beats AF100 and 5D Mark II).

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 12:38 PM
So it could take an hour or so to get editing - at least I wont be fiddling with sound files and PE too !

(BTW I think 6 gig is the most for my machine but like I said the EX1 is ready to chop out of the camera)

this could influence the ability of the cam to do fast turnaround - I guess thats where a Prores recorder might help - or buying an F3?

-----

I understand base is '800' ISO

so how many DB of gain is 1600, or 3200

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 12:45 PM
I believe that is correct, that gain 0 is 800ISO. If you look at Philip Bloom's comparison of the AF100/FS100/F3/5D that he posted recently, he gives estimates of what the gains mean (he believes) on the FS100. Also, in the pre-production there is no negative gain settings (so nothing below ISO800) and I for one hope they do add some negative gain settings in the final version. Without this, ND filtering is going to be a MUST outdoors, period.

There is no internal microphone. I asked for the same exact reason. Because of this, I plan on designing a small XLR to mic connector that is intended for ONE thing, just sync sound without the bigger mic it comes with. Not that the mic is bad, I have no clue, but most of the time I just want something to match if I am using another sound person OR I have XLR coming from a Rode NTG-2 anyways. My idea is the mic is installed into the XLR connector. Will be easy to make.

With AVCHD you can edit directly in Premiere, you can log and transfer into FCP, you can transcode with something like clipwrap or handbrake (or others), or hopefully, the plugin from apple that handles AF100 footage will work with FS100 footage as well (since they are both AVCHD).

mico
05-24-2011, 12:59 PM
.. which will take similar time to the DSLR workflow?

Regarding the current FCP , yes. In a month it'll be just a memory and the Fs-100 isn't even out yet so they might converge.

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 01:35 PM
Hmm

Im suspicious of the new FCP - if its like stills software Lightroom and Aperture, it can get you in a right mess - if you have 20+TB of media in your own on and offline structure

Suspicious of stuff working in the background, generally

AFAIK the 'work' of the transcode (H264-pro res with DSLR) still has to be done, Id prefer to set it go and have dinner rather than have a computer working (or not working) as I edit

I have been very happy with my simple directory based workflow

Streamclip has worked for me well even though it takes time

Google AVCHD and mac gives pages and pages of stressed camcorder users !

S

mico
05-24-2011, 01:43 PM
First off we don't really know how the background transcoder is doing its job in the new FCP. I'm sure you'll be able to turn it off and do it the old fashioned way.

Avchd is not an editing codec no matter what editing programs work with it natively and might cause problems with transitions and any post work.

It has been proven over and over that transcoding AVCHD to a better 10 bit codec gives you more wiggle room in post.

If you're still suspicious and stressed, then buy a recorder that encodes in a format that doesn't stress you. Although pulldown removal for true 24p might rear its ugly head if you're the impatient type.

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 01:57 PM
First off we don't really know how the background transcoder is doing its job in the new FCP. I'm sure you'll be able to turn it off and do it the old fashioned way.

Avchd is not an editing codec no matter what editing programs work with it natively and might cause problems with transitions and any post work.

It has been proven over and over that transcoding AVCHD to a better 10 bit codec gives you more wiggle room in post.

If you're still suspicious and stressed, then buy a recorder that encodes in a format that doesn't stress you. Although pulldown removal for true 24p might rear its ugly head if you're the impatient type.

No, I don't believe that has been shown to give you more wiggle room because the incoming file doesn't dictate how the footage is handled inside the software, which is typically float based from what I see. The important distinction is intermediate files. If you go in and out of different applications, AT THAT POINT, it is important to be using a high quality codec to preserve as much information as possible, like 10-bit. However, as I said, if you never leave the application and do all your work to the original file in that tool, you'll be fine.

I have tested this MANY times with AVCHD files in Premiere pro with heavy grading to see what the final outcome was.

Since I do use multiple passes in and out of my editing software (as I do a lot of VFX with Maya, After Effects, Motion, Blender, etc) I have edited many times directly with AVCHD files coming in, then export to ProRes 422 ALWAYS.

mico
05-24-2011, 02:08 PM
Then you should tell cineform that they got it all wrong.

From Cineforms website:

Chroma Interpolation: 4:2:0 → 4:2:2. Background: Most HDV and AVCHD camcorders record chroma (color) in a format known as 4:2:0. Without diving too deep, 4:2:0 chroma is half the color resolution of more professional 4:2:2 formats. When Neo Scene detects 4:2:0 chroma it properly interpolates the source chroma to 4:2:2 for more accurate color processing during editing and effects work. And if you ever "key" your material, CineForm’s chroma interpolation will substantially improve your resulting visual fidelity.

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 02:15 PM
Im pretty sure the codec is 'thin'

I dont have great expectations of a deep gradeable codec from this camera - im pretty good at lighting to control DR in a scene

I just want reasurance that there is a simple workflow to get from AVCDH to a FCP friendly codec like Prores

Ideally Prores as that is what my back catalogue is in

Using todays tech how can one get to Pro Res on a non intel mac and how long will it take?

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 02:22 PM
You are missing what I am telling you, the NLE editors do not work with the material internally as AVCHD. That is the source format. Once that data is read in and used, it is converted to an intermediate file format, just as audio applications take EVERY 16-bit and 24-bit and convert to a 32-bit float variant on most systems, or a 48-bit int variant on ProTools|HD systems. Internally, the video data is handled as a float.

I've run the same material through Premiere and AE as both AVCHD and ProRes 422 to confirm the SAME filter settings on both using Keylight and other tools and the results were the same. Once something has been converted to 4:2:0, converting it back to 4:2:2 can't give you lost information. And given the internal processing engines of the NLE I have used do not work with the source codec but an internal codec, then the quanitization and bit-depth concerns are totally dependent on the internal processing (which they would be no matter what input source you are starting with). Furthermore, you are limited by the bit depth of your plugins as well.

Now, this is for Premiere and After Effects, maybe this is not the same with all NLE, but my understanding was that Final Cut works the same way (although I have not confirmed that).

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 02:34 PM
Im pretty sure the codec is 'thin'

I dont have great expectations of a deep gradeable codec from this camera - im pretty good at lighting to control DR in a scene

I just want reasurance that there is a simple workflow to get from AVCDH to a FCP friendly codec like Prores

Ideally Prores as that is what my back catalogue is in

Using todays tech how can one get to Pro Res on a non intel mac and how long will it take?

What is relavent is what the codec contains. It is 8-bit, so you will have some limitation on how far you can push things as compared to 10-bit. Converting it to 10-bit isn't going to give you any extra information that was there because it's gone from the point it was encoded. If you are used to working with 8-bit capture codec in the past, then it should be what you expect. There is nothing wrong with transcoding, as it can gain speed enhancements on some machines, and of course, compatibility on others. With FCP you have to transcode right now as it does not support AVCHD directly yet. Since QT cannot allow me to quick view files in OSX that are AVCHD at this point, I transcode to ProRes 422 *IF* I am dealing with a lot of files. If it's just a few, I use VLC to quickly view the contents before dragging into Premiere or After Effects.

If I had a non-intel mac I'd tell you, but I sold my G5 dual 1.8Ghz machine years ago (2006 to be specific) and haven't looked back. You should REALLY REALLY REALLY consider upgrading if you are on a preIntel machine. You can get some Core2duo's for VERY cheap and it will absolutely outperform an older G5. Heck. my coreduo macbook outperformed the G5 which is why I got rid of it. I was shocked. I would be surprised if FCPX even worked on nonIntel honestly.

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 02:55 PM
Lets forget grading bit depth and the like

im just talking workflow

I have a very easy workflow on my current computer with my DSLRs

download card
transcode (which takes some time)
edit

Im wondering if I can get a similar workflow
download
transcode
edit

with this camera on my current computer and current FCP

You may think I have donkey old kit but it works, and upgrading is not that easy or cheap in my business environment with multiple machines .. and it works fine, I dont grade a lot do greenscreen etc

S

Stephen Mick
05-24-2011, 02:58 PM
That workflow will be perfectly fine on the FS-100, MM, and should work exactly the same way.

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 03:01 PM
with stream clip ? on the old machine I have ?

Stephen Mick
05-24-2011, 03:06 PM
I don't see why it wouldn't. AVCHD and H.264 are essentially the same thing, with each company (Panasonic, Canon, Sony, etc.) having their own flavor, with some subtle differences. So in theory, the workflow you have established for Canon DSLR footage should work perfectly fine with Sony FS-100 footage. It may be a bit slower, or a bit faster, to transcode, and there may need to be an update to Streamclip to be able to open the files. But we won't know until the camera ships whether your exact workflow will work as before. Again, in theory, it should.

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 03:15 PM
streamclip..
Supported input formats: MPEG, VOB, PS, M2P, MOD, VRO, DAT, MOV, DV, AVI, MP4, TS, M2T, MMV, REC, VID, AUD, AVR, VDR, PVR, TP0, TOD, M2V, M1V, MPV, AIFF, M1A, MP2, MPA, AC3

?

Stephen Mick
05-24-2011, 03:22 PM
If Streamclip can't do the job, Log & Transfer in FCP should be able to without issue.

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 03:25 PM
maybe.. or not..
http://support.apple.com/kb/ta24840 "AVCHD support is available only on Intel-based Macintosh computers."

Now I am a dummy at this but my understanding of L+T is you plug in the camera.. which is no good if have a DIT getting the footy moving while you are shooting on another card

Stephen Mick
05-24-2011, 03:26 PM
Clipwrap might also be a worthwhile investment. I've used it with great success for all sorts of footage.

http://www.divergentmedia.com/clipwrap

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 03:30 PM
Looks like I might need to get hold of a file..

"ClipWrap 2.0 adds support for transcoding and rewrapping AVCHD. Please test your specific camera's files to ensure compatibility"

FelixGER
05-24-2011, 03:35 PM
I have another dummy question.
On some shoots I want to use the Atomos Ninja with the FS100.
Unfortunately the Ninja has a very crappy playback quality so I want to record both, AVCHD to preview the clips and the Ninja.

Question: When recording internally, does the FS100 still export uncompressed through HDMI or will it then be the precompressed stream?

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 03:39 PM
I guess it does because its just a feed it doesnt even know if you are recroding externally

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 05:07 PM
There is pre-production FS100 files on this board, you could download some and test.

I see no reason why the external HDMI would change on the FS100, and no one who has used it with an external recorder has complained as such.

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 09:08 PM
link to the files?.. I cant find

S

ectobuilder
05-25-2011, 02:24 AM
Some silly questions about the camera..

-does it have an internal mic

(I see this as useful for synch audio only)

===

the codec

what is the pain level in transcoding for editing in FCP

====

S

This reviewer confirms that his pre-production model DOES HAVE a built-in mic:
http://www.vimeo.com/21838779

Hidef1080
05-25-2011, 03:09 AM
The FS100 ships with a mic but it does not have a built in mic.

http://www.vimeo.com/21696974

David Shapton
05-25-2011, 04:34 AM
I have another dummy question.
On some shoots I want to use the Atomos Ninja with the FS100.
Unfortunately the Ninja has a very crappy playback quality so I want to record both, AVCHD to preview the clips and the Ninja.


You're right about the current playback quality on the Ninja but - for the sake of anyone reading this who doesn't know - this is a temporary feature and is absolutely not a permanent characteristic of the device. It's going to be fixed by a firmware update very soon. The current playback capability (or lack of...) is because we are currently decoding the video for playback in software. When the update is finished, the Ninja will playback to it's internal screen using the same hardware that does the ProRes encoding. So it will actually have the same visual quality as when you are viewing images in Monitor mode. All Ninja users, existing and future, will get this upgrade.

I'm the first to agree that this has taken longer than we expected, but it will happen soon.

Dave Shapton
President
Atomos EMEA

Rick Burnett
05-25-2011, 08:13 AM
I had 3 separate people check out the FS100 for me at NAB and I asked 2 different reviewers online and all 5 people said there is no internal mic. Now, I REALLY hope there is one, but I have not seen anything that shows any different. I don't see anything in this video that proves it at all either.


As for some footage, a lot of people on vimeo have put up the MTS files, and on here, but just so you have something to play with, here is a few MTS files I found:

http://www.mynahmedia.com/2011/04/an-hour-with-the-sony-nex-fs100u/#more-227

ectobuilder
05-25-2011, 08:48 AM
I had 3 separate people check out the FS100 for me at NAB and I asked 2 different reviewers online and all 5 people said there is no internal mic. Now, I REALLY hope there is one, but I have not seen anything that shows any different. I don't see anything in this video that proves it at all either.


As for some footage, a lot of people on vimeo have put up the MTS files, and on here, but just so you have something to play with, here is a few MTS files I found:

http://www.mynahmedia.com/2011/04/an-hour-with-the-sony-nex-fs100u/#more-227

There might have been different pre-production versions out in the wild because this specific reviewer has noted that there IS an internal mic:
http://vimeo.com/21838779

Rick Burnett
05-25-2011, 08:56 AM
He states it, but never once talks about it in the video, and never shows it. Maybe they added one, but given the age of this video and the fact he says that he checked this out pre-NAB, you'd think people at NAB, getting the most exposure to the camera, would have seen one that would be closer to what we will expect to see. Given I have 5 nos and 1 yes, I am hesitant to believe his assertion. However, I will just ask him and see :)

morgan_moore
05-25-2011, 09:29 AM
thanks for the links to the clips will play tonight and reprot back

sound like the mic is an unknown

S

morgan_moore
05-25-2011, 11:47 AM
Initial workflow for Pre Intel Mac

Streamclip doesnt work, voltaic doesnt work, handbrake not supported

Clipwrap -> Pro Res doesnt work

Clipwrap -> H264 -> streamclip -> prores works .. maybe

The 1080 25p file works but not the 1080 50/25 slomo clip

Hmm not pretty so far

Rick Burnett
05-25-2011, 11:54 AM
Send a message to the clipwrap people and make sure to send them the mts file. Maybe it's just not being recognized properly.

morgan_moore
05-25-2011, 12:05 PM
done

dop16mm
05-25-2011, 12:30 PM
If fs100 files are a little different, I'm sure clipwrap will have it by the time the camera is out. I was dubius as I still run a 2ghz G5 and all I've heard for the last year was that avchd was a no go even though I can handle h264 and the only difference was the wrapper. So I finally had a chance to demo a GH2, and downloaded clipwrap, and no problems. The transcode was a bit time consuming, but walk away and come back and everything is ready for your normal workflow. I normally just stick with AIC, as it is fine for what i do with hdv. I don't output for broadcast, so the data rate for prores 422 is overkill for me. I did test a clip to prores, and it went fine, just took longer.

I can see not upgrading your whole office if what you have is doing the job, but you may consider adding an iMac or macbookPro to deal with the avchd transcode, and final h264 outputs which are dog slow on the old PowerMacs even though they work fine for general editing.

morgan_moore
05-25-2011, 12:49 PM
Clipwrap sent me another version and it makes a pro res fine, but still broken by the 50/25 file

Speedwise ive been pretty happy with turning my Canon h264 file to prores using streamclip on my current maching

Of course I could upgrade my computer(s) - we even have a brand new machine right here in the office (not mine) but there are heaps of things to spend money on (like getting an EX3 which would play straight off the camera)

I dont tend to fix stuff till its broke

S