HVX200 vs Z1 vs HD100 vs ???futureXL3???

[Dofray]

Imaginos that we are in the desert or the mountain or any place where
one does not want to have to bring a laptop or a Hard Disk in more of
its camcorder. We are encumbered already enough with the tripod and other
accessories and personal businesses. We want to have one hour of true
image HD uncompressed in our computer, 1080 or 720. How much that
does it cost us?

Panasonic AG-HVX200
HVX200 + 7 cards P2 8 Go + 1 card P2 4 Go
$6,000 + 7x$2,000 + $1,000 = $21,000

Sony HVR-Z1E
Z1 + 1 DV Tape + HDV Connect + Blackmagic Decklink HD
$5,500 + $5 + $2,000 + $700 = $8,205

JVC GY-HD100U
HD100 + 1 FD Types + HDV Connect + Blackmagic Decklink HD
$6,295 + $5 + $2,000 + $700 = $9,000

Thus the advantage goes to Sony, but it is not progressive,
therefore favours with the JVC, but it is not 1080, therefore favours
in Panasonic but too expensive and not practises (Laptop or Hard Drive
or much of P2 cards) Damned!!!! Panasonic, Sony and JVC have to act in
concert to put to us in the embarrassment, it is not possible.

Canon, if you listenings. Please HDV 1080/24p for the XL3.

Only Canon will be able to put everyone of agreement now.

[reservoir]

DAMN...we sure are starting the *vs.* threads awful EARLY!!

What about:

HVX300 vs. Z2U vs. GL3 vs. HD200

Clearly the winner is obvious, is it not? It's.......

~reservoir~

[johnc]

Man, all the complaining. I have a HVR-Z1U. When the HVX200 comes out I'll trade it to anyone for their HVX200 that they don't like. You have damn near it all for $6k and yet you still complain.

Any takers? I didn't think so.

just my $0.02 worth

johnc

[Jaime Valles]

You're talking about UNCOMPRESSED HD?! Who uses that? George Lucas or Robert Rodriguez... with MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SPEND!!!!

That said, why can't we use the Blackmagic Decklink HD with the HVX? It has uncompressed out, too. Right?

Can you record uncompressed HD to P2? I don't think so. Too much information.

[Dofray]

*** You're talking about UNCOMPRESSED HD?! Who uses that? George Lucas or Robert Rodriguez... with MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SPEND!!!! ***
i don't speak about 4:4:4 expensive uncompressed, but 4:2:2 uncompressed for lot of treatment and compositing for anyone.

*** That said, why can't we use the Blackmagic Decklink HD with the HVX? It has uncompressed out, too. Right? ***
Yes, but the problem of filming outdoor still exist.
And like you say, *** record uncompressed HD to P2? I don't think so. Too much information ***. So Thus in more of the $21k, one can add the $700 of Decklink HD 4:2:2


I know that it is a little early for the comparison.

But I just try of launching the debate and realizing well of the
differences which there can be between what manufacturers proposes us.
HVX200, HD100 and Z1 are now presented officially. One can thus start
to test the comparison.

I know that with the HVX200 I have much for less $6K, it is what many
says, but I think that that entraine of other consequent expenditure
to use all that the HVX200 brings.

It is a little like the policy of the manufacturers of printers. The
printer is not expensive, but the consumable one ruins you.

But notice that i love Panasonic, i am a dvx user, but I want to have all the good reason to buy an HVX200 and really profite the advantage of HD.

[PappasArts]

reservoir may I finish this line..........


Clearly the winner is obvious, is it not? It's....... What ever tool works for you the best................

michael pappas

[johnc]

Sure wish Panasonic would get on the ball and post full specs on th HVX200. JVC has wasted no time in publishing a plethora of information about the HD100 on their web site.

Jan, what's the hold up on the web update? Very little new info and the brochure is still the old one.

johnc

[reservoir]

reservoir may I finish this line..........


Clearly the winner is obvious, is it not? It's....... What ever tool works for you the best................

michael pappas

AMEN to that Pappas. Hell, if digital 8 or Hi8 works for you....then USE it!! I'm sorry for being a smart-ass all the time (Ok, I'm not *really* sorry), but I just get tired of the age old *My dad can beat up your dad* debates. I like Macs, but I have a PC. I like the DVX and HVX, but I don't have one *yet*. I like Ferraris, but I have a Kia. Little things like that, you know!! I guess I just try to bring humor into everything!! It's my....uh....defense mechanism. :)

~reservoir~

[Jaime Valles]

*** You're talking about UNCOMPRESSED HD?! Who uses that? George Lucas or Robert Rodriguez... with MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO SPEND!!!! ***
i don't speak about 4:4:4 expensive uncompressed, but 4:2:2 uncompressed for lot of treatment and compositing for anyone.

I don't get what you mean by this... The HVX records HD in 4:2:2 by default. HDV records 4:2:0 only. The HVX is starting off with twice the color space than the Z1 or HD100.

I might be missing something here... If you get two 8GB P2 cards, you can record 16 minutes of 1080/24p, or 32 minutes of 720/60p, or 64 minutes of DVCPro50 (which is also in 4:2:2 but not HD). Also, it's still possible that the camera can record HD direct to hard disk, so you could conceivably buy an 80GB hard disk for very cheap, plug it in to the camera, and get 80 minutes of full out 1080/24p (we don't know for sure if this is possible; Panasonic hasn't confirmed or denied this yet.)

[Loki]

this is such a stupid thread

[Mr. Blonde]

Dofray....just admit that you can't afford a HVX200 and that you just bought a crappy Canon and you're regretting it, thanks.

[reservoir]

this is such a stupid thread

62.73% of the HVX200 threads are either stupid, repetetive, meaningless, speculative to the point of exasperation, or just downright funny.

Maybe Jarred should *LOCK* the HVX200 forum for 6 months? "DO NOT OPEN until October 1st, 2005!! :(

~reservoir~

62.73% - Give or take a few %, as this was *NOT* a scientific study.

[Barry_Green]

I might be missing something here... If you get two 8GB P2 cards, you can record 16 minutes of 1080/24p, or 32 minutes of 720/60p, or 64 minutes of DVCPro50 (which is also in 4:2:2 but not HD).
Not quite... 1080/24p and 720/60p take up the same amount of space on the card, so with two 8gb cards you'd get:
16 minutes of 1080 footage, or 16 minutes of 720/60p
40 minutes of 720/24p
32 minutes of DVCPRO50
64 minutes of DVCPRO25


Also, it's still possible that the camera can record HD direct to hard disk, so you could conceivably buy an 80GB hard disk for very cheap, plug it in to the camera, and get 80 minutes of full out 1080/24p (we don't know for sure if this is possible; Panasonic hasn't confirmed or denied this yet.)
Right, but what *is* confirmed is that even if you can't record directly to the hard disk, you can still dub from the P2 card to the hard disk. So you could still get 80 minutes of 1080/24p on that $80 hard disk, you just may have to dub to it.

You definitely could record direct to hard disk through a laptop or other device (a new type of FireStore, maybe?) that supports 100-megabit data streams.

[Barry_Green]

Sure wish Panasonic would get on the ball and post full specs on th HVX200. JVC has wasted no time in publishing a plethora of information about the HD100 on their web site.

Keep in mind that the JVC was scheduled to come out in June (now July), and the HVX isn't expected to come out until 4Q (which means October at the earliest). That means the JVC is theoretically about 4 months further along in its development cycle.

[k2director]

Suggesting that the HVX costs $21,000 to get solid use out of it is ABSOLUTELY CRAZY.

Many video jobs won't require 7 P2 cards. Jeez, conventional cameras used to shoot most mainstream movies today have a magazine of film that lasts roughly between 10 and 24 minutes. What do the filmmakers do when they run out of film? They change the magazine! It's no big deal! Similiarly, many HVX users will simply fill up 1 or 2 P2 cards, and then swap in a 2nd or a 3rd, while they dump the contents of the filled cards to a hard drive. This downtime won't interrupt narrative filmmaking--ie, shooting scenes from a script--one bit. There's plenty of downtime already for moving the camera, talking to actors, applying makeup, etc, etc, etc.

Sure, working with 2 or 3 P2 cards may not work for *some* projects, but it will work just fine for many others. For those, the HVX looks pretty damn amazing (but the jury's still out until we can see footage).

[thisiswells]

What do the filmmakers do when they run out of film? They change the magazine! It's no big deal!

HaHa. True. The price of a P2 card is about the same as a 200' magazine--without film. It's just a metal case that holds five minutes worth of film. They're 1400 bucks, each.

brian wells

[Dofray]

AMEN to that Pappas. I just get tired of the age old *My dad can beat up your dad* debates. I like Macs, but I have a PC. I like the DVX and HVX, but I don't have one *yet*. I like Ferraris, but I have a Kia.

~reservoir~
You don't understand what i mean Resevoir. It's not an *My dad can beat up your dad* debate[I]
i don't have any preferences for Canon or Sony or JVC. I like Panasonic, but i'm not blind. Love don't make me blind, so i just try to watch out with these new formats that all the manufacturers propose.

You talk about ferrari. But nowadays, with some complementary harware (BlackMagic, HDV Connect, etc...) you can have a good quality footage in your computer without ruin yourself. So talk about uncompressed video, isn't talk about expensive stuff

[Dofray]

I don't get what you mean by this... The HVX records HD in 4:2:2 by default. HDV records 4:2:0 only. The HVX is starting off with twice the color space than the Z1 or HD100.
That's why i talk about Decklink.
I just want to know how much that costs me to have of the 4:2:2 in my computer with what the manufacturers propose to us today.
Indeed, you are right the HVX records HD 4:2:2. But at which price? cards P2 or Hard Drive in direct connection.



Also, it's still possible that the camera can record HD direct to hard disk, so you could conceivably buy an 80GB hard disk for very cheap, plug it in to the camera, and get 80 minutes of full out 1080/24p (we don't know for sure if this is possible; Panasonic hasn't confirmed or denied this yet.)

Let us take the example of 80 GB Hard Drive i.e. 80 minutes of 1080p.
When you only leave abroad to film documentary and that you want to bring back in your country 20 hours of images, how you make with a HVX, without you to encumber with a laptop and a large unit of 500 GB of storage which you would fill each evening?
Or with a HDV or ProHD which you can then quietly upconvertir into 4:2:2 thanks to BlackMagic? To leave with a hundred K7 is easier, less expensive, etc and you can despite everything finish with 4:2:2 in your computer.

I just try to launch a good debate and not something of stupid.

[reservoir]

Oh ok!!

~reservoir~

[Dofray]

this is such a stupid thread
THIS IS NOT A STUPID THREAD.
I want to know what that really implies to adopt the P2 format. And if it is not adopted, how to make and how much that costs to have the same result (at the end of the workflow) as DVCPROHD with the concurents.

[Dofray]

Dofray....just admit that you can't afford a HVX200 and that you just bought a crappy Canon and you're regretting it, thanks.
Where do you believe to be? In a court of recreation of children?
Me I believe being in a forum with adults and people in the listening of the questions that everyone can be asked.
To answer your question, I do not have a camcorder. I have just sold my DVX100 to be able to migrate towards something which will approach the HD, with native 16/9. Thus I ask myself questions and it is normal.
I hoped that with this forum one could discuss calmly as an adult and see together what bring to us new the camera which leaves or which will leave. Apparently for some it is not the case.

[Editor321]

Dofray....it is not a stupid thread...You have legitimate concerns.

But, talking about the shortcomings of the HVX100 is like talking about someone's mom or wife around here.

These people dont want to hear it! It's like, they have got their minds set on buying this camera and they dont want to hear anything the doesnt support this fantasy.

Nobody can really justify the P2 without all this, "get external hardrive", "download every so often", "after all, its just like film right".

Funny though, comparing the workflow of the P2 to film is definitely a step backwards in terms of digital technology. Hardly justifing the process.

Some of these guys are getting a woody to a picture of the HVX as we speak.

[Dofray]

Dofray....it is not a stupid thread...You have legitimate concerns.

But, talking about the shortcomings of the HVX100 is like talking about someone's mom or wife around here.

These people dont want to hear it! It's like, they have got their minds set on buying this camera and they dont want to hear anything the doesnt support this fantasy.

Thank you Editor.
It is good to feel heard and included/understood, even if one can have another opinion, which I can accept besides.




Nobody can really justify the P2 without all this, "get external hardrive", "download every so often", "after all, its just like film right".

Funny though, comparing the workflow of the P2 to film is definitely a step backwards in terms of digital technology. Hardly justifing the process.

Some of these guys are getting a woody to a picture of the HVX as we speak.
You're right !

[reservoir]

Funny though, comparing the workflow of the P2 to film is definitely a step backwards in terms of digital technology. Hardly justifing the process.


Well that statement proves it!! You guys are definately smoking crack, and obviously large amounts of it.

Someone please for the love of phucks sake.....please explain to me how P2 is a *Step Backwards* in terms of "Digital Technology?"

So you are saying that shooting on film, then getting it processed, then getting it telecined, THEN capturing it into a NLE, then *FINALLY* getting to edit it......that's how you are *supposed* to do things? That's efficient? That's better than P2? WTF?

Get off the drugs man!!


THIS IS NOT A STUPID THREAD.
I want to know what that really implies to adopt the P2 format. And if it is not adopted, how to make and how much that costs to have the same result (at the end of the workflow) as DVCPROHD with the concurents.

And for the record.....YES....THIS IS A STUPID THREAD!!

Don't try and change the subject. If you *really* wanted to discuss the P2 workflow and other *jibber-jabber* you mentioned...you wouldn't have started a thread called....and I quote:


HVX200 vs. Z1 vs. HD100 vs. ???FutureXL3???

Yeah, that really sounds like you want to discuss the inner workings and workflow of the P2 card.

In reality, it's just fodder for the usual *My dad can kick your dad's ass* arguments....which it totally moot to begin with because:

A. There is NO HVX200 - It exists only on Paper and in the form of a plastic Mockup / Or in a Panasonic Labratory somewhere.

B. There is NO XL3 - Probably Never WILL BE!!

C. HENCE, there isn't ANYTHING TO COMPARE TO *ANYTHING*!!

D. HENCE, THIS IS A STUPID THREAD!! LOKI, I hope you are getting a good laugh out of this!! :)

~reservoir~

[hvpz]

In a court of recreation of children?

Sounds like french translated litterally in english...
Dofray, show us your location, you're not a spy !

btw, the AJ-SPC700 use an AJ-YAD800G to record directly to hard drive through a laptop.

Do you think that panasonic will do the same with our beloved HVX-200 ?

[reservoir]

Sounds like french translated litterally in english...
Dofray, show us your location, you're not a spy !

btw, the AJ-SPC700 use an AJ-YAD800G to record directly to hard drive through a laptop.

Do you think that panasonic will do the same with our beloved HVX-200 ?

Sounds like some more of that "All your base are belong to us" talk if you ask me.

~reservoir~

[Dofray]

Sounds like french translated litterally in english...
Dofray, show us your location, you're not a spy !
I'm not a spy. I'm new in this forum, and i register normaly.
If my location does not appears is not volunteer. I don't know how to make my location visible.
But you're right, i'm in Paris like you.



btw, the AJ-SPC700 use an AJ-YAD800G to record directly to hard drive through a laptop.

Do you think that panasonic will do the same with our beloved HVX-200 ?
i don't know about this AJ-YAD800G, plus i only looking on prosumers camcorders.
But i have to take a look at these expensive camcoders to understand P2 more perhaps

[hvpz]

Sounds like some more of that "All your base are belong to us" talk if you ask me.
~reservoir~

:beer:

Hey, Reservoir, what about your boss today ? No *talking to* ;o)

[Phooey]

Eureka!!! The HVX may not be for everyone. I can't believe it. It's like now I see the light. It all makes so much sense now.

Don't like P2? Get the JVC. Ain't no shame in that. Want to make a film? Well, we'll wait to see the footage of these cameras, but the HVX works in a higher color space, less compression, etc, so I have my guesses. Panasonic could have waited for P2 to be an affordable solution, and we'd be looking at the HDV version of the DVX100, but instead Pana is giving us a chance to work with future technology. So, yeah, there are some work arounds. THANK YOU PANASONIC FOR SKIPPING OVER HDV!!!!

But, um, yeah... the HDX isn't for everyone.

[Dofray]

Well that statement proves it!! You guys are definately smoking crack, and obviously large amounts of it.

Someone please for the love of phucks sake.....please explain to me how P2 is a *Step Backwards* in terms of "Digital Technology?"

So you are saying that shooting on film, then getting it processed, then getting it telecined, THEN capturing it into a NLE, then *FINALLY* getting to edit it......that's how you are *supposed* to do things? That's efficient? That's better than P2? WTF?

Get off the drugs man!!
You're damned too agressive, for just a question of camcorder !!!




And for the record.....YES....THIS IS A STUPID THREAD!!

Don't try and change the subject. If you *really* wanted to discuss the P2 workflow and other *jibber-jabber* you mentioned...you wouldn't have started a thread called....and I quote:



Each one of these cameras have different specificities, therefore I summarized like that to launch a debate.



Yeah, that really sounds like you want to discuss the inner workings and workflow of the P2 card.

In reality, it's just fodder for the usual *My dad can kick your dad's ass* arguments....which it totally moot to begin with because:

A. There is NO HVX200 - It exists only on Paper and in the form of a plastic Mockup / Or in a Panasonic Labratory somewhere.

B. There is NO XL3 - Probably Never WILL BE!!

C. HENCE, there isn't ANYTHING TO COMPARE TO *ANYTHING*!!

D. HENCE, THIS IS A STUPID THREAD!! LOKI, I hope you are getting a good laugh out of this!! :)

~reservoir~
Poor arguments. You just still don't want to understand the tread.

[hvpz]

Dofray, it's a stupid thread because the only cam available is the Z1.

In 6 months, the z1 vs HVX-200 vs HD100 will have more meanings.

[Dofray]

Dofray, it's a stupid thread because the only cam available is the Z1.

In 6 months, the z1 vs HVX-200 vs HD100 will have more meanings.
But i think that we can start to debate. Not to make a conclusion.
Even only the Z1 is available, we know now the specifities of JVC and Panasonic camcorders.
Thus one can already start to reflect on the options of work that that implies and the day come, not to be completely deprived in the store in front of the arguments from such or such salesman which would have these preferences.
I know also we have to wait for footages tests.

Perhaps is too early, but i still thinking that's not a stupid thread.

But OK, let's stop this thread.
See ya in 6 months

[hvpz]

See ya in 6 months

Take care, Dofray.

Be sure, Barry and Jarred will do the "HVX200 vs Z1 vs HD100" test when all the cams will be available.

[reservoir]

:beer:

Hey, Reservoir, what about your boss today ? No *talking to* ;o)

Nah...I was able to slip under the radar most of the day.

Deputy Doofey....I mean....Dofray.....

See you in 6 months. :thumbsup:

~reservoir~