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FelixGER
05-23-2011, 12:16 PM
I probably just found a big letdown!

When you look at the technical specifications of the FS100 in the camera section you find:


White Balance
Auto, Outdoor (5800K), indoor(3200K), One-push (Touch panel)

Uhm? No manual WB??

When you look at the NX5:

Auto, one-push auto (A/B positions), indoor (3200 K), outdoor (selectable level -7 to +7, approx. 500K/step), manual WB Temp (selectable 2300K to 15000K, 100K/step)




This canīt be...I need manual choice of Color Temperature...

Postmaster
05-23-2011, 12:34 PM
Exactly like the DVX and the HVX and many other cameras do it.

OMG, you guys are really spoiled.

For decades the best movies where made with just 2 flavors of film stock - daylight and tungsten.
Nobody ever had a problem with that.
And now you come up and say "This canīt be...I need manual choice of Color Temperature..."

Come on....

Frank

FelixGER
05-23-2011, 01:36 PM
Yeah and a hundred years ago movies were silent....
White Balance on film stook and white balance on video is a completely different thing. If itīs off on video and itīs not RAW, you canīt alter it easily


When a consumer photo camera can do it, I expect it on a prosumer cam.
Even the other NXCAM Camcorders have this feature. Z1, Z5, Z7, EX Series. Why not the FS100. I donīt get it. Itīs just senseless to cut out this feature.

Postmaster
05-23-2011, 02:20 PM
Then buy a NX5 if this is so important to you. :beer:

Frank

FelixGER
05-23-2011, 02:37 PM
Itīs just sad. Iīm working a lot with mixed lightning where I canīt use a push WB.
And the daylight setting is 5800K, way off the 5200-5400 I usually use.

On my last shoot I used tungsten lights with 1/2 ctb as key and unfiltered tungsten as fill with a WB of 4300 K. Not possible to do this on this cam. Not suitable for professional work, sorry.

Postmaster
05-23-2011, 02:45 PM
LOL - I wonder how we all could survive - working in the business as professionals for the last 30 years - without manual WB, that goes from 2300K to 15000K, in 100K steps?

Probably I missed something.

Frank

John Caballero
05-23-2011, 02:49 PM
If a camera doesn't work for a you don't buy. It is that simple.

FelixGER
05-23-2011, 02:53 PM
I dont understand this childlike response....

Of course you can work around that. I also worked around the awful aliaing of the Canon 60D in the 3 month I used it.
I can understand that the FS100 doesnīt shoot 120fps @ 3k. That would double the price. But doing such a dumb software limitation....why?

What if i have two FS100 and want to shoot simultaneiously? How do I set them to the same color temp?


The cam is perfect! There is no other cam that has this noise free image, dynamic range, colors in this price range but this missing for granted taken feature destroys it all

...And I was so looking forward to buy this cam :(
Now I have no camera to buy but the F3 which I canīt afford right now

David W. Jones
05-23-2011, 03:09 PM
Yeah and a hundred years ago movies were silent....
White Balance on film stook and white balance on video is a completely different thing. If itīs off on video and itīs not RAW, you canīt alter it easily
.

What?
I color correct all kinds of footage that was not shot in a raw format and have never had a problem getting the look I desired.

Postmaster
05-23-2011, 03:13 PM
Yeah, I just donīt get his point ether.

Frank

dop16mm
05-23-2011, 03:18 PM
Even in mixed lighting you have to decide what is going to be white. Put a white card under your white light and push the white balance, if using multiple cameras do all at the same time. I've shot this way for years and have never found the need to dial in a specific kelvin number. Unless you have a color meter you're guessing anyway, so you might as well let the camera guess for you. I would never trust the color rating of a commercial light fixture to program kelvin manually, there are some pretty wide variances. Also standard pre-sets are useful in order to get color washes for effect.

Rick Burnett
05-23-2011, 03:25 PM
I think it's a pretty fair statement to ask if a company has a cheaper camera that has a particular useful feature, why doesn't a newer higher priced camera from the same manufacturer? The AF100 has selectable white balance and it's the same category as the FS100 as far as I am concerned.

That said, until a manual comes out that shows how the camera works, I'd say we just don't completely know what it is going to be capable of, one way or another. Yes, I think it would be a mistake to leave that out as I use it A LOT with my AF100 when working with other cameras. Yes, I can work around it if it does not, but as I said, it is completely valid for someone to question why it's not there if it is something they use.

I'd recommend contacting Sony if you really need to know before ordering, or, contact some of the people who have had hands on with this camera to see.

FelixGER
05-23-2011, 03:25 PM
I've shot this way for years and have never found the need to dial in a specific kelvin number.

Thing is: I also shot for several years and I never used anything but the manual kelvin selection (and Auto of course for running around documentary stuff). I never in my live did a white card white balance.

Iīm just angry because it is a deliberate downgrade from sony to make the F3 better.

@Rick: I already wrote an email to the sony professional center Germany.

Rick Burnett
05-23-2011, 03:27 PM
Thing is: I also shot for several years and I never used anything but the manual kelvin selection (and Auto of course for running around documentary stuff). I never in my live did a white card white balance.

Iīm just angry because it is a deliberate downgrade from sony to make the F3 better.

Unless you have proof that this is what Sony did, or has done, since no one knows for sure and it could just be misleading sales documentation (which happens a lot unfortunately) then I think it is safe to say that these types of assertions are uncalled for.

morgan_moore
05-23-2011, 03:27 PM
I completely agree

dial in WB is widely available for $600 in a DSLR

FYI Id be looking to get a few off white WB CARDS

S

Rick Burnett
05-23-2011, 03:32 PM
Then the next steps would be

(1) Contact many of the shooters who used the FS100 and see what they saw. I had many questions about the FS100 and they answered them for me.

(2) Wait till the camera is released and ask someone. I pre-ordered awhile ago so I *should* get mine fairly quickly after release.

The other issue is the firmware on the preproduction units was probably not final either. Because of that, the answers you get to (1) might not be fully accurate. Given I'll be able to answer your question probably 15 minutes or so after I get mine, no reason not to wait and see.

FelixGER
05-23-2011, 04:04 PM
Alright!
But that makes waiting for the camera not easier! ^^

Rick Burnett
05-23-2011, 04:16 PM
Yes, I can understand that! :) You can also take this time to decide if you can work around it if you have to if in fact it becomes truth.

Postmaster
05-23-2011, 04:23 PM
I completely agree

dial in WB is widely available for $600 in a DSLR



"dial in WB"

All it does is raising the db in the blue channel (causing even more noise there).
Something you can do also in post (often with less damage), when you CC anyway.

I do that every day and never had any problem.
On the contrary - in post you can not only raise the blue channel but correct also on the green-magenta axis.

I been shooting with the HVX (which comes with the same controls as the FS100) and several similar equipped cameras since years and so did others. Saying that without manual WB you can not shoot professionally is just not right.

But to each his own.

Frank

zeke
05-23-2011, 04:39 PM
I would think using something like a dsc color chart and proper lighting, would be the way to set the camera's color profile. It has a 6 color LUT built in.

FelixGER
05-23-2011, 04:46 PM
Something you can do also in post (often with less damage), when you CC anyway.


I donīt want to argue but thatīs not completely correct. You cannot CC that easy in a heavily compressed 4:2:0 AVCHD file. WB in camera is done before compression.

Rick Burnett
05-23-2011, 04:53 PM
I use dial in WB for one thing mainly, day for night shots. I want to dial in the setting, a white balance card doesn't help me here. I tune my camera to the other cameras and this method, at least with the AF100, has worked great and the footage used perfectly (at least as told to me by the editor so far).

There are MANY more ways to use things in camera that some people might not think about.

Noel Evans
05-23-2011, 05:11 PM
Seriously guys this debate is about how someone prefers to work, theres no right or wrong here. Though Felix the statement is true, if a camera doesnt work the way you want it to, there will be another that does.

My issue with this discussion is people on both sides are speculating. Can we have confirmation on the WB controls from someone please? Then everyone should move on with that info and do what they will.

henryolonga
05-23-2011, 05:28 PM
Rick - I love your patient and measured moderation. I agree with Noel that we need confirmation of this before going into debate headstrong. Never the less - I do think that we live in an era where expectations of features are a 'given' over a certain price point. I do think that if it is an omission, it would be slightly odd.......awaiting confirmation

ullanta
05-23-2011, 05:36 PM
Postmaster... try to show Felix some warmth and love!

speedjunkie
05-23-2011, 05:49 PM
I have to Agree. After Dealing with the Canon Technicolor Picture style on my 7d, the auto, Tungsten or Daylight Settings rendered the incorrect colors, even though I have Manual WB in the 7d i dint realize the importance if properly setting this. it kills you in post if you dont.

I am used to the AUTO and presets which work OK for most situation but the fs100 is going to be my s35 film camera for under 8k, and that manual wb sure would help.

Now just until recently while using the technicolor s cure on the 7d did i learn to properly set my wb// Manualy...... Im sure ther will be a hack for it ...

speedjunkie
05-23-2011, 05:57 PM
One more note though, Color Correcting is best left to those who know how , I am Just learning how to manualy cc, and I did notice my capturing mistakes ,, all my Blacks were brown and my Skin tones were orange, shooting in Daylight with the Preset for daylight. Maybe ig i would have added more Blue my blacks would have came back meaning increasin the DB level manualy could have lessed the cc time. thats all, I enjoy cc now so no issue for me but hey its all a Learning Curve now .... pun intended

harrisoncj
05-23-2011, 08:23 PM
WB in camera is done before compression. cmos sensors have a native wb usually for daylight, so any manual adjustments to the wb away from that is a form of compression -done in camera. That's my understanding but I could be wrong.

Stephen Mick
05-23-2011, 08:42 PM
FYI…Doug Jensen just posted this about the FS-100 white balance tools…

"Just like any other professional video camcorder from Sony, it has a stadarnd white balance memory A/B switch for storing two custom white balances, a customizable preset setting, and the ability to dial-in a custom color temperature from 2300K to 15000K in 100K increments."

cheezweezl
05-23-2011, 11:26 PM
it's probably like the ex1. from the switches you can only get daylight, tungsten, or atw. to dial in a custom WB, you need to go into the picture profile and edit the "white" setting.

with that said, i agree that it would piss me off not to have the ability to dial it in and i don't understand the hostility towards the OP for his frustration.

John Caballero
05-23-2011, 11:42 PM
FYI…Doug Jensen just posted this about the FS-100 white balance tools…

"Just like any other professional video camcorder from Sony, it has a stadarnd white balance memory A/B switch for storing two custom white balances, a customizable preset setting, and the ability to dial-in a custom color temperature from 2300K to 15000K in 100K increments."

.....

speedracerlo
05-23-2011, 11:45 PM
where did you get this wrong info Felix

morgan_moore
05-24-2011, 01:29 AM
http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/nxcamcorders/nex-fs100e/technicalspecs

FelixGER
05-24-2011, 06:25 AM
http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/nxcamcorders/nex-fs100e/technicalspecs

correct.
Great this was not true!

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 10:45 AM
Let's keep this discussion about white balance. Any other questions I have moved your discussion to another appropriate thread (resolution).

Thanks.

FelixGER
05-25-2011, 05:32 AM
I received an email from Sony Professional Germany.
The camera has selectable WB temperatures

http://www.imagebanana.com/view/ra4xze8r/cid_image001_gif01CC1ACE.gif

They will fix this on the international website.

Hidef1080
05-25-2011, 05:35 AM
I can't read German!!!!:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG):Drogar-BigGrin(DBG):Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

FelixGER
05-25-2011, 05:36 AM
cīmon!
"WB-TEMP EIN"
"MANU WB TEMP"

ROFL ;)

Rick Burnett
05-25-2011, 09:15 AM
Excellent! :) And they got back to you, which i see as a good thing.