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View Full Version : Rigging your FS100



olindacat
05-19-2011, 04:07 PM
I was looking at P. Bloom's camera comparison (and just about everything else with footage for this camera) and I starting wondering how I'm going to rig it. Has anyone spec'ed out theirs yet? How about a recorder? How many of you will use and which one? Will anyone be rolling with a Gemini 4:4:4 or a Atomos Samurai?

MadMonkFish
05-19-2011, 04:34 PM
The FS100 doesn't have SDI (HDMI only) and is only 4:2:2 - so the Atomos Ninja (4:2:2 & HDMI) would be the recorder to get. But, the F3 has SDI and can go S-log, so the Samurai would be good there.

maranfilms
05-19-2011, 04:55 PM
I wouldn't rig it much different than a dslr. It's a small body, and will still need a shoulder rig to get good shots, as far as audio,straight in to cam, xlr baby. I wouldnt bother with a seperate recorder with this cam. I think it will need a seperate viewfinder thats off set. At least that way you can use it like an eng cam.

olindacat
05-19-2011, 06:18 PM
The FS100 doesn't have SDI (HDMI only) and is only 4:2:2 - so the Atomos Ninja (4:2:2 & HDMI) would be the recorder to get. But, the F3 has SDI and can go S-log, so the Samurai would be good there.

Thanks MadMonkFish.

olindacat
05-19-2011, 06:22 PM
I wouldn't rig it much different than a dslr. It's a small body, and will still need a shoulder rig to get good shots, as far as audio,straight in to cam, xlr baby. I wouldnt bother with a seperate recorder with this cam. I think it will need a seperate viewfinder thats off set. At least that way you can use it like an eng cam.

I had heard some comments about metering audio being tough on this as well as the 16-bit audio not being ideal as opposed to 24, so was thinking about a recorder/monitor as above like Ninja that could double as monitor as well. (Although Ninja monitor isn't much over what comes stock.

maranfilms
05-19-2011, 06:38 PM
If your ears can tell the difference between 16 bit and 24 bit, I envy you. Im unable to tell the difference, so for me 16 bit is fine. What is the reason it's hard to monitor? Does it not have audio levels?

Kraut69
05-19-2011, 07:31 PM
From what I read 16 bit is good enough for everyone. Nothing to be gained by 24 bit audio. 16 bit is the way.

ectobuilder
05-19-2011, 07:47 PM
Keep in mind the NEX-FS100 records in 1080p/24/30/60. However the ATOMOS does not do 60p. And it is not fully equipped to do a pulldown to convert the 60i wrapper to 24p (since the 24p signal is sent out as 60i with pulldown markers), thus a software conversion would have to be done after ingestion. Therefore the Atomos only natively does 30p.

The ATOMOS also does not playback your recorded footage at full speed at the moment (but a firmware upgrade is in the works).

However the Gemini will do all the framerates, but the Gemini is unproven as they only showed the "demo mode" at NAB and not the full version.

That leaves other candidates Hyperdeck Shuttle, AJA Ki Pro Mini, CineMartin and Cinedeck Extreme. Any suggestions?

Stephen Mick
05-19-2011, 07:51 PM
Don't forget about the NanoFlash. For the FS-100, it seems like a great choice. You don't get a monitor, of course, but it's proven technology.

speedracerlo
05-19-2011, 08:29 PM
It looks like my best option would be the nanoflash because of the uncompressed HDMI-HD/SDI loop through function and I can monitor on my TVLogic VFM-056WP
My TVlogic actually only outputs 720p res from the HDMI to HD/SDI loop and that's no good for external recorders like the Blackmagic Hyperdeck Shuttle
damn I was looking forward to using the Blackmagic..

actually now that I look at it, the Nanoflash can not record 1080 60p, kinda gimped if it can't record overcranked shots

olindacat
05-19-2011, 08:40 PM
From what I read 16 bit is good enough for everyone. Nothing to be gained by 24 bit audio. 16 bit is the way.

I had some audio experts telling me 16-bit might not be good enough. I read in the audio section here that in-camcorder audio is sub-par. As I have 28 years in print and only three very short and limited years in video, I am (gulp) a bit over my head with this. I was freaked out worried that the Ki Pro Mini might be a mistake and that the Samurai was loooking pretty good (but can't connect) so I was thinking Ninja because of the monitor, but I was worried about just what I'm reading, more clearly explained, and relevant to this camera. I assume you have all seen this:

http://www.zacutoimages.com/p264364814/h10DD5E5B#h7a8ed99

Obviously a Zacuto-centric image, but looks like ti would fill the bill for both tripod and shoulder-mount situations.....

Postmaster
05-19-2011, 10:32 PM
damn I was looking forward to using the Blackmagic..

actually now that I look at it, the Nanoflash can not record 1080 60p, kinda gimped if it can't record overcranked shots

You can always go in the Blackmagic Shuttle first (SDI or HDMI) and than use one of the Shuttles outputs (HDMI or SDI) to go to your monitor.




http://www.zacutoimages.com/p264364814/h10DD5E5B#h7a8ed99

Obviously a Zacuto-centric image, but looks like ti would fill the bill for both tripod and shoulder-mount situations.....

Zacuto never got the balance right - their shoulder pads are always to far behind.

I wish someone would make a base plate with integrated shoulder pad that works like the tripod plate on the old Betacams, so the camera is really on your shoulder instead of a foot in front of you.
GENI has at least something similar but without the pad.

Frank

speedracerlo
05-19-2011, 11:25 PM
oh so the blackmagic hyperdeck shuttle can Loop-through HD/SDI output while recording?
I didn't think this was possible with the small blackmagic
it probably only works on the studio version

cheezweezl
05-20-2011, 12:36 AM
From what I read 16 bit is good enough for everyone. Nothing to be gained by 24 bit audio. 16 bit is the way.

not so much. this statement is the same as an audio guy saying that a camera with 9.6 stops of latitude is just as good as a camera with 14.4 stops of latitude.

while 16 bit audio is completely workable, 24 bit audio gives you a decent increase in dynamic range (96db vs. 144db) and could mean the difference between good audio and bad when your levels get too high or too low. just like having those extra stops of latitude on the 14.4 stop camera, you could avoid blowout as well as lost detail in the shadows under tricky situations. with that said, as long as you keep good tabs on your levels and use some sort of compression before the signal hits the pre-amps, 16bit can be fine, but will never be as good as 24bit.

Postmaster
05-20-2011, 01:34 AM
oh so the blackmagic hyperdeck shuttle can Loop-through HD/SDI output while recording?
I didn't think this was possible with the small blackmagic
it probably only works on the studio version



Blackmagic isnīt very precise on that, but it has SDI and HDMI outputs, so it would say, there is a chance that it will loop-through. Everything else would be a pretty much deal breaker. I don't think they are that short sighted.


Frank

speedracerlo
05-20-2011, 02:14 AM
considering that you can't play back through the HDMI out until you "switch" to the HDMI output mode to use the play button, I'm highly doubting that this one offers loop through, but if I am wrong that would only be good news

Postmaster
05-20-2011, 04:10 AM
Worst case: HDMI splitter.

Frank

nyvz
05-20-2011, 07:00 AM
not so much. this statement is the same as an audio guy saying that a camera with 9.6 stops of latitude is just as good as a camera with 14.4 stops of latitude.

while 16 bit audio is completely workable, 24 bit audio gives you a decent increase in dynamic range (96db vs. 144db) and could mean the difference between good audio and bad when your levels get too high or too low. just like having those extra stops of latitude on the 14.4 stop camera, you could avoid blowout as well as lost detail in the shadows under tricky situations. with that said, as long as you keep good tabs on your levels and use some sort of compression before the signal hits the pre-amps, 16bit can be fine, but will never be as good as 24bit.

Isn't it more like an audio guy saying that a camera with 16 stops of latitude is just as good as a camera with 24 stops of latitude? :)

Kraut69
05-20-2011, 08:45 AM
As detection devices, people's eyes are usuallly in better shape than people's ears. Do the research on 16 bit audio use in the professional industry and you may see that is what people are using.

cgold
05-20-2011, 10:12 AM
I'm not an audio guy, but I think its similar to the 8 Bit vs 10 Bit issue with video. 8 Bit is the standard distribution medium because it looks great, but can fall apart quickly in post so people prefer to capture it at 10 bit (when able to) even though the final product will be 8 bit. Most audio is recorded at 24 bit (or more) and distributed at 16 bit, because 24 bit audio holds up better to things like noise filters, equalizers, ect.

olindacat
05-20-2011, 11:54 AM
I could use all the help I can get in terms of room for error. I am shooting in windy golf course situations all the time. Does anyone like the build quality if what Steve at CPMFILMTOOLS.COM is offering. Speaking of build quality, has anyone read Nigel Cooper's review about the FS100? http://www.dvuser.co.uk/content.php?CID=268

Rick Burnett
05-20-2011, 01:57 PM
It really depends on the signal to noise ratio of the audio system. 24-bit isn't going to do ANYTHING for you if the noise floor is loud enough that you are just recording more noise than you would in a 16-bit system. I have both 16-bit recorders and 24-bit recorders and where I notice the difference is in the pre-amps I use AND the room I am recording in. What you want to do is maximize the signal (like actors voice) to the noise (which is also ambience in the room). Even if you record at 24-bit, if you record in the lower bits to protect your headroom, I wouldn't say you are gaining anything other than overload protection, and worse, you are going to get more noise because you are using a smaller section of possibly the same noise floor. To get a round this, I record 2 channels of audio at the same time, one 12db lower since I do not record stereo to camera, from the same mic. Because of this, I effectively have a HUGE range of audio if I need to reconstruct something from a clipped peak that was unexpected. And if I had scenes that required more than 1 microphone, I'd either just run through the scenes to test the levels, or record to separate audio and sync in post.

I have a feeling the converters in the FS100 will really be around the same quality of what my AF100 has, and they are not quiet (48kHz/16-bit). They do have noise, but, given all the other noise in a scene from ambience, has NEVER been a problem for me.

I use the CPMFilmTools sidewinder. I like it. I plan on using it with my FS100 as well.

Until I get the camera, I am not sure how I will use it in all regards. I want to use it on my Blackbird Stabilizer as well. I wonder about the weight distribution.

olindacat
05-20-2011, 03:17 PM
That's reassuring, Rick. So do you think you will pass on using a separate recorder with your FS? Curious to know what pre-amp you use. And Nigel?

olindacat
05-21-2011, 12:53 PM
I saw the old post about Kitting out the FS100 and put up pretty much the same shot (sans the female talent), but as I have shot with ENG-type camcorders and am now making more of a move to this form factor, I find myself in the market for a "rig." The follow focus being a major consideration. I know that autofocus in this level of video is pretty dicey, which reasons as to why the FF is so vital. I was reading another thread where this co. seems to be getting quite a bit of praise. Here's their first attempt at a rig for the FS: http://www.trusmt.com/en/infoview.asp?Id=8

olindacat
05-21-2011, 12:57 PM
It really depends on the signal to noise ratio of the audio system. 24-bit isn't going to do ANYTHING for you if the noise floor is loud enough that you are just recording more noise than you would in a 16-bit system. I have both 16-bit recorders and 24-bit recorders and where I notice the difference is in the pre-amps I use AND the room I am recording in. What you want to do is maximize the signal (like actors voice) to the noise (which is also ambience in the room). Even if you record at 24-bit, if you record in the lower bits to protect your headroom, I wouldn't say you are gaining anything other than overload protection, and worse, you are going to get more noise because you are using a smaller section of possibly the same noise floor. To get a round this, I record 2 channels of audio at the same time, one 12db lower since I do not record stereo to camera, from the same mic. Because of this, I effectively have a HUGE range of audio if I need to reconstruct something from a clipped peak that was unexpected. And if I had scenes that required more than 1 microphone, I'd either just run through the scenes to test the levels, or record to separate audio and sync in post.

I have a feeling the converters in the FS100 will really be around the same quality of what my AF100 has, and they are not quiet (48kHz/16-bit). They do have noise, but, given all the other noise in a scene from ambience, has NEVER been a problem for me.

I use the CPMFilmTools sidewinder. I like it. I plan on using it with my FS100 as well.

Until I get the camera, I am not sure how I will use it in all regards. I want to use it on my Blackbird Stabilizer as well. I wonder about the weight distribution.

Rick: Let me know the next time you come to Maui so I can get your green fees :-) Do you shoot with a crew or do a lot yourself? I ask because I am a lone wolf and am not accustomed to the modular systems many here seem to use regularly. Do you carry your recorder/mixer/receivers in a bag or bolt them to your 'rig'?

ectobuilder
05-24-2011, 08:51 AM
Just found this nice comparison chart on AbelCine:

http://blog.abelcine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Recorder_Comparison_Chart_051611.pdf

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 09:23 AM
Wow, that is a great table, thanks for finding that!

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 09:28 AM
Rick: Let me know the next time you come to Maui so I can get your green fees :-) Do you shoot with a crew or do a lot yourself? I ask because I am a lone wolf and am not accustomed to the modular systems many here seem to use regularly. Do you carry your recorder/mixer/receivers in a bag or bolt them to your 'rig'?

I shoot with a very small crew. Typically we have 3 to 4 people working at most. We switch off and on who is doing what. For this reason, I try and keep my system VERY modular and VERY fast to change around. Everything has Manfrotto plates on them so I can change in a heartbeat from my shoulder rig, to my stabilizer, to my tripod, to my monopod.

Here is a video with us working with the 7D. Of course, the crane and dolly shots took more time, but I still set them up entirely while two others were shooting other stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ial0CH7P84&feature=youtu.be

imag
05-24-2011, 10:29 AM
It's too bad the recorders don't have false color and peaking. I am considering replacing the Marshall 5" I was planning on getting with the Samurai, but those two features are pretty key. I realize they are on the camera viewfinder, but that's a bit small...

David Shapton
05-24-2011, 10:40 AM
It's too bad the recorders don't have false color and peaking. I am considering replacing the Marshall 5" I was planning on getting with the Samurai, but those two features are pretty key. I realize they are on the camera viewfinder, but that's a bit small...

We are adding some montor-assist functions; can't put a date on it yet, though.

Dave Shapton
Atomos

imag
05-24-2011, 10:46 AM
That's great Dave. Thanks so much for weighing in. Would those be firmware upgrades, or would we have to wait for a product rev? I'm assuming (hoping) the former. Just knowing those are coming pushes me in that direction...

olindacat
05-24-2011, 11:08 AM
Just found this nice comparison chart on AbelCine:

http://blog.abelcine.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Recorder_Comparison_Chart_051611.pdf
Fabulous find ectobuilder!

olindacat
05-24-2011, 11:14 AM
I shoot with a very small crew. Typically we have 3 to 4 people working at most. We switch off and on who is doing what. For this reason, I try and keep my system VERY modular and VERY fast to change around. Everything has Manfrotto plates on them so I can change in a heartbeat from my shoulder rig, to my stabilizer, to my tripod, to my monopod.

Here is a video with us working with the 7D. Of course, the crane and dolly shots took more time, but I still set them up entirely while two others were shooting other stuff.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ial0CH7P84&feature=youtu.be

Thanks, Rick. Very cool to see your crew in action.

Rick Burnett
05-24-2011, 12:27 PM
No problem. I like to show people that you can in fact work with smaller groups IF you have people who work well together AND have a good skill set. Balance. I am REALLY looking forward to using the FS100 in this same setting.

speedracerlo
05-24-2011, 01:08 PM
looking at the chart from Abel Cine, it confirms my fear that there is no External Recorder that is made to work 100% with the FS100
the closest one is the Nanoflash, but you'll lose the 1080p at 60fps uncompressed

the FS100 also needs a HDMI to SDI-Loop Through Recorder with no compression

olindacat
05-24-2011, 11:25 PM
looking at the chart from Abel Cine, it confirms my fear that there is no External Recorder that is made to work 100% with the FS100
the closest one is the Nanoflash, but you'll lose the 1080p at 60fps uncompressed

the FS100 also needs a HDMI to SDI-Loop Through Recorder with no compression

Speed: I have been trying to find a solution for days. There is (I think) a way to record 'uncompressed 1080p60 externally'. Here's what I'm looking at to take the HDMI 1.4 1080p60 4:2:2 signal from the FS100 to an external recorder that 'promises' to actually do 1080p60. I think this will work, but don't know yet as I am not an expert but the specs seem to add up:

1. Use the Atlona AT-HD-3GSDI to convert FS100 HDMI 1.4 to 3G/HD/SD SDI in real time as a way to overcome the FS100's lack of SDI connection. http://www.markertek.com/Video-Equipment/Video-Processors/HDMI-Converters/Atlona-Technologies/AT-HD-3GSDI.xhtml
2. Then connect that to Cinemartin's SFV (Small Form portable Video computer) 1080p60 4:2:2 recorder (to be): http://www.cinemartin.com/sfv/

There are two recorders under development: the SFVe and the SFV. The 'e' accepts HDMI but doesn't record 1080p60. The SFV doesn't accept HDMI but does record 1080p60. The Altona supposedly can handle 1080p60. The SFV is still under development and isn't cheap at estimated $5K, but if you want to do it I think this is going to be the way to get it done. Here's more on the SFV: http://nofilmschool.com/2011/03/cinemartin-release-uncompressed-444-field/

speedracerlo
05-25-2011, 02:25 AM
wow I never heard of the SFV until now, but that one seems to have all the necessary functions if the HDMI can be converted to HDSDI
if the nanoflash is going to cost 3k, I guess 5k isn't too much more... but the external recorder is now going to cost just as much as the camera.. price seems more justified for the F3s or perhaps renting them when needed would be smarter

Billy Barber
05-25-2011, 03:21 AM
Re: 16bit vs 24bit thing.
I've worked in recording studios my entire life. That and a Metro card will get you on the subway. But one man's opinion: for dialogue where you need immediacy I could use 16bit and not look back. For music though where you need depth I would move mountains to get 24bit.

olindacat
05-25-2011, 10:18 AM
wow I never heard of the SFV until now, but that one seems to have all the necessary functions if the HDMI can be converted to HDSDI
if the nanoflash is going to cost 3k, I guess 5k isn't too much more... but the external recorder is now going to cost just as much as the camera.. price seems more justified for the F3s or perhaps renting them when needed would be smarter
If I were Dave Sharpton or another maker of these recorders, I'd look at making the 60 work at a better price-point. The price isn't even set in stone for the SFV so maybe they'll go after a wider segment by pricing under $2K. It's only a matter of time before the F3 features come down in price, whether Sony does it, or someone else....

imag
05-25-2011, 11:06 AM
Moved comment to more appropriate thread.

Tony Hernandez
05-27-2011, 02:20 AM
i don't understand.

olindacat
05-28-2011, 12:50 PM
Does anyone have any thoughts about this? http://lcdvf.com/what.html

Phil_UK
05-28-2011, 03:03 PM
Beeing the guy in the video, in the slowmotion bit (Camera Comparison), I can tell you that he had a Atomos Ninja at hand. He recorded onto that.
He used a Marshal monitor and a light Zacuto rig, with a Zacuto follow focus. He put the HDMI out into the marshall and then into the Atomos!

Duke M.
05-29-2011, 07:22 AM
Does anyone have any thoughts about this? http://lcdvf.com/what.html

That's pretty much the same as a hoodman loupe. They work to enlarge the LCD screen, but they don't allow you to move the screen like an EVF would. You can't get the camera too far back on your shoulder with one.

Katty Galloo
05-29-2011, 02:41 PM
No one can really quantify how much better a sound is going to sound recorded at 24/96. Just because a 24/96 file has 250 times the audio resolution does not mean it will sound 250 times better; it won't even sound twice the quality. In truth, your non-musically inclined friends may not even notice the difference. You probably will, but don't expect anything dramatic. Can you hear the difference between an MP3 and a wave file? If so, you will probably hear the difference between different sample rates. For example, the difference between 22.05 kHz and 44.1 kHz is very clear to most music lovers. A trained ear can tell the difference between 32khz and 44.1. But when 44.1 and 96kHz are compared it gets real subjective.

moldcad
06-01-2011, 12:05 PM
Zacuto never got the balance right - their shoulder pads are always to far behind.

I wish someone would make a base plate with integrated shoulder pad that works like the tripod plate on the old Betacams, so the camera is really on your shoulder instead of a foot in front of you.
GENI has at least something similar but without the pad.

Frank

Frank,

I guess you're right generally (with bigger cameras like the EX3 with a long lens) - but in the case of the smallish FS100, with the shoulder pad under it, where would the follow focus knob land - on your nose :) Just look again at this picture!

Piotr