DVXuser.com exclusive hands on with the HVX200 [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

schteevie

04-18-2005, 08:01 AM

A couple quick questions...

1) Is the stock mattebox removable? I would imediately want to replace it with a 4x4

2) Is the profile taller then the DVX00? in the side by side photos it looks like it is (it also looks abit fatter and longer?) - if the camera is bigger, it would be a pain for all of us that had planned to keep bags and back packs fitted for the DVX.

3) Does the manual focus still have the interactive "distance" numbers displayed in the LCD?

4) Thanks for all your hard work guys!

Steve

mikkowilson

04-18-2005, 08:36 AM

Here's a couple more questions i'm sure will be answered soon.. :-)

Firewire.. 6 pin or 4?
What/where are teh other connectors? i'm seeing a flap(s?) above the XLRs.. somehting in there? PLEASE tell me it has RCA connectors and not some studpid [please god not new] multipin connector.
what about remote? ...I'm probably askign too much for LANC arn't I?

And someone asked about speed ramping.. IF possible how is that controlled? it's be awsome to do it remotly... [SOMEONE PLEASE build a USB RCU for these cameras...]
What's the HD output? 4.x.x ? And can it simultaniously output HD and SD? (for example the FX1 has one connectore for component AND composite, but cna only do one or the other.

- Mikko.

Digigenic

04-18-2005, 08:38 AM

We're really not seeing two different HVX's...
It's just that the same model is developing so fast, we're seeing it evolve before our very eyes-it must be made from that new self-replicating nanotech stuff! Hell Yeah! :happy:
By the end of Nab it'll look like a freakin Varicam.

jnolla

04-18-2005, 08:39 AM

Markings on the lens? are they coming?

Jarred Land

04-18-2005, 08:40 AM

Yes the camera is a fair bit larger, taller and much wider, but it feels more ergonomic when you are holding it like a camcorder (if you do that). Most bags however should fit it fine, as although it is larger it is basically the same form and most bags allow some moving around room.

Stock mattbox is removable

and as far as we know the ditance numbers are distance numbers now.

Article should be up in about 15 minutes.

mikkowilson

04-18-2005, 08:41 AM

yeah.. it's the same stuff Terminators are made of... so of you drop it it'll fix itself.

..and i'm sure it'll be replicating itself nice and fast too once it's available..

- woudl explain the "liquidy" 'hump'

- Mikko

schteevie

04-18-2005, 08:43 AM

thanks Jarred!

I don't mind bigger, but "taller"? the handle seems to be unnesessarily far from the body making it a fair bit taller when it doesn't need to be... so much for my $300 back pack :P

Mythfit

04-18-2005, 08:50 AM

yeah.. it's the same stuff Terminators are made of... so of you drop it it'll fix itself.

- Mikko

Actually if your AC drops it it just kills him, wich saves you alot of trouble of killing him yourself.

FatDaddy

04-18-2005, 08:55 AM

The banner link does not work. I hope it is coming soon....

Digigenic

04-18-2005, 09:06 AM

yeah.. it's the same stuff Terminators are made of... so of you drop it it'll fix itself.

Actually if your AC drops it it just kills him
But you guys are also forgetting it can travel through time and change the course of events... :laugh:
We'll soon discover this camera has been responsible for all major movies for the past 100+ years; morphing itself into Panavision, Arri, Mitchell, etc. and now Panasonic to ensure that the next filmmaking messiah's voice is heard!

kai

04-18-2005, 09:10 AM

Wonder if it has the infamous clunk when turned off? :) Surely with all the fun we have with noobs and that question they'd leave it be just for us, right?

shAi

04-18-2005, 09:14 AM

Wonder if it has the infamous clunk when turned off? :) Surely with all the fun we have with noobs and that question they'd leave it be just for us, right?
that might be the only moving part in the camera..!
oh.. but there IS a tape drive too :(

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:27 AM

thanks Jarred!

I don't mind bigger, but "taller"? the handle seems to be unnesessarily far from the body making it a fair bit taller when it doesn't need to be... so much for my $300 back pack :P
The camera's quite a bit taller, and it's a *great* feature. Ergonimically, now when you hand-hold it, you don't have to hold it out and away from you while using the VF. Now you can lock your elbow in tight to your body, making it sort of a "monopod", and the viewfinder lines up directly with your eye. Once I saw that feature I was like "man, these guys are THINKING!"

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:28 AM

Markings on the lens? are they coming?
That most likely is forthcoming.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:31 AM

Here's a couple more questions i'm sure will be answered soon.. :-)

Firewire.. 6 pin or 4?
Don't know, but we asked for six.

What/where are teh other connectors? i'm seeing a flap(s?) above the XLRs.. somehting in there? PLEASE tell me it has RCA connectors and not some studpid [please god not new] multipin connector.
Should have the full complement, plus a D-shaped breakout connector for component HD output.

what about remote? ...I'm probably askign too much for LANC arn't I?
Forget LANC! This thing offers the same remote jack as the DVX, for remote record and zoom function, but it also has a new jack that provides for remote focus AND REMOTE IRIS!

And someone asked about speed ramping.. IF possible how is that controlled? it's be awsome to do it remotly... [SOMEONE PLEASE build a USB RCU for these cameras...]
Not known yet.

What's the HD output? 4.x.x ? And can it simultaniously output HD and SD? (for example the FX1 has one connectore for component AND composite, but cna only do one or the other.
Not known yet. The HD component output will be at least 4:2:2, but may be 4:4:4 for all we know. As for functionality of the outputs, we'll have to wait for a functioning prototype before we can answer those kind of questions.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:31 AM

Barry or Jarred, One of you is left eye handed. Is it?
Dolph
Guilty.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:34 AM

A couple quick questions...

1) Is the stock mattebox removable? I would imediately want to replace it with a 4x4
It's not a mattebox, it's a lens hood, and yes it's removable.

2) Is the profile taller then the DVX00? in the side by side photos it looks like it is (it also looks abit fatter and longer?)
It's quite a bit taller, also fatter and longer. Bigger in all dimensions, really.

3) Does the manual focus still have the interactive "distance" numbers displayed in the LCD?
Of course! And it's been enhanced, now focus isn't just in the number scale but also reads out in ft/inches or in meters.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:35 AM

Or maybe they're both just mock ups?

They're both prototypes, and may change further prior to production.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:38 AM

How many pixels are the CCDs?
Don't know yet, they're still making the internals.

Why the 4:3 display?
The 4:3 display is THE BEST user feature on the camera! You'll see a Panasonic slide that shows why. You get the full widescreen 16:9 image, and then all the feedback and stats and timecode and meters and all that stuff goes in the "letterbox" area, out of the picture area. It's the simplest thing, but it's the most wonderful workflow change.

The 4:3 display is also optimal for the thumbnail preview menu when reviewing P2 thumbnails.

Will we see any screen grabs before september?
Definitely. But it'll be a while before working prototypes are out there to make footage.

mikkowilson

04-18-2005, 09:38 AM

Remote focus.. ok, LANC had that (though never very well)...
...but Remote Iris! ...and now from me: "wow".

- Mikko.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:40 AM

Do you know when it will be available?
No more than anyone else knows. We've heard "fall" and "4Q".

Darth Bunnykins

04-18-2005, 09:40 AM

When will the hands on article make it on line guys?

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 09:41 AM

I sent the revisions to Jarred, he's working on it as we speak.

Well, okay, we aren't "speaking", but still...

Michael_Bott

04-18-2005, 09:44 AM

It's there, just read it. Awsome, just awsome. Thanks guys.

Bloody amazing. Now we all get to play serious ... :beer:

xander76

04-18-2005, 09:51 AM

Great article, guys, but I'm still not entirely clear what the record-to-disk situation is. First you say:

in addition to miniDV tape, it offers the revolutionary P2 solid-state memory cards, and may also record or transfer footage directly to optional external 1394 hard disks

which seems to imply that you can record to off-the-shelf drives. In the section on recording, though, you only mention transferring footage from P2 to off-the-shelf drives (not recording directly to the drives), and later you write

It can also transfer files from the P2 card directly to an off-the-shelf USB 2.0 external hard disk, or to a potentially-forthcoming FireStore type of device.

which to me implies that off-the-shelf drives can't be used for recording. Can you provide more clarity for us on this point?

Luis Caffesse

04-18-2005, 09:53 AM

GREAT article, thanks guys!!

Mike_E

04-18-2005, 09:55 AM

Yeah, that's what I thought was implied as well. Please elaborate on this

mikkowilson

04-18-2005, 09:56 AM

Luis Caffesse

04-18-2005, 09:58 AM

I read the article again, and saw no mention of the ability to record directly to any hard drive that can handle the datarate. Noah mentioned this on here last night, and I was hoping to see you guys confirm that as well.

Is that a confirmed fact?
Or did Noah misinterpret what the panasonic engineers were telling him?

If it really is possible to record directly to any firewire or USB2.0 drive, that is huge huge news for this camera.

Hopefully Barry or Jarred can pipe in on this one.

EDITED TO ADD:

damn you guys are fast...didn't realize the question was brought up while I was typing
:)

hvpz

04-18-2005, 09:58 AM

"It can also transfer files from the P2 card directly to an off-the-shelf USB 2.0 external hard disk, or to a potentially-forthcoming FireStore type of device."

It looks like we have first to record on P2. Hope, i'm wrong but panasonic have to earn money !

Luis Caffesse

04-18-2005, 10:03 AM

Noah posted last night:

" If you just buy the camera and don't want P2- you'll be just fine. Any firewire or USB-2 drive that can handle the 100Mbit data rate will work. It does not need to be a Firestore or other DV specific drive. The engineers have reported using it with an Ipod for example. So there's nothing to fear here."

Do you think he misunderstood what the engineers were saying?
And they were only transfering files to the ipod, not recording to it?

Sumfun

04-18-2005, 10:04 AM

I agree with xander.

I think one of the big reamingin questions after all that is:
Can the HVX200 record Directly to a external USB/Firewire Hard drive. Or do you have to record to P2 first, and only then copy out form the camera? (If this is the case, can you perform a copy while recording on the other card?)

- Mikko.

Specs for this camera are amazing!

The only remaining question is to clarify if it can record directly to HDD. But Mikko brings up a good possibility about downloading data while the other P2 card is recording. I think I can live with that - just get 2 small P2 cards and shoot continuously.

Digigenic

04-18-2005, 10:08 AM

It appears as though they might be updating the article with regard to disc drive recording. I last looked and the banner changed from the HVX article back to P2
...Okay, nevermind...it's back now...hmmmm
I do wonder about the direct to drive option though :huh:

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 10:18 AM

Regarding the direct-to-disk question: I'm not 100% sure. What I do know is that it will definitely allow dumping P2 card contents to an off-the-shelf external hard disk, that we know for sure. So you can record to P2, plug in a hard disk, and dump the files over. You don't "need" a P2 Store to do that, although the camera can't be shooting while it's dumping files to hard disk. The main advantage of the P2 Store is that it lets you keep shooting, hot-swapping cards over to it to let it do the transfer. But for those who want to dump the files to disk directly, the camera can do that by itself.

Regarding direct-to-disk recording: there are some things that Panasonic didn't answer definitively for us. This was one. At some times it sounded possible, at some times not, and eventually we quit pressing for an answer. Obviously they know it would be a great solution. There were questions about external 2.5" or 1.8" drives being able to support the bandwidth, and reliability issues with 3.5" drives, which are not designed for portability. 3.5" drives can support the bandwidth, but they're not nearly as rugged or field-worthy as a laptop-style drive.

I got the impression that it's seriously being worked on, but they are not prepared to commit to a definite "yes". So the answer may be no, it may be yes, regarding off-the-shelf firewire or USB2 drives. We'll find out closer to the ship date. We did not get final clarification or a definite answer there. But trust me, they know we want it, so hopefully they'll be able to find a way to make it work.

It definitely will work with an external device like a FireStore, providing that FireStore can come up with a reliable way of recording the full bandwidth. The current FireStore FS-4 only supports up to 40 megabits, so they'd have to make it at least 3x as fast, probably 4x as fast, to have enough buffer room.

Digigenic

04-18-2005, 10:24 AM

Great article guys, aside from the lingering direct to disk question, I see one minor snag...

...based on the features we’ve seen on paper, the consumer may very well say “The camcorder wars are over. Sony, JVC, Canon, thank you for playing.”
Canon hasn't played yet. How can they be counted out when they haven't even been counted in? I guess it is for the consumer to decide, give me true HD or give me death! :)
Again, great introductory article, I look forward to seeing more coverage.

xander76

04-18-2005, 10:25 AM

Thanks a bunch for the clarification, Barry, and thanks again to both you and Jarred for the article.

Zig_Zigman

04-18-2005, 10:25 AM

Has it been mentioned how long it takes to offload a p2 card full of data to a hard drive or a laptop?

If it's under 5 minutes, you could almost get by shooting narrative with 1 8g card. Shoot 5 - 10 takes, break for another shot, and while setting up you could offload the p2 card.

Obviously not ideal, you'd probably want 3 or 4 cards, but hey, you could make it work.

mikkowilson

04-18-2005, 10:26 AM

Barry;
Thanks for the answer, and GREAT article!

Oh i had another question too.. umm yeah, any idea about how the focus and irs remotes will work? will it be a pot that adjusts the position at a variable speed (like a zoom zontroler?) or will be be a "focus demand" type where the position of the pot will determin an exact, repeatable position?

Oh yeah, and any word on variable framerates? is it just the 3 presets, or is there more control?

- Mikko.

Mike_E

04-18-2005, 10:27 AM

Thanks for the response Barry, time will tell.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 10:32 AM

Has it been mentioned how long it takes to offload a p2 card full of data to a hard drive or a laptop?
That depends on your hard drive or laptop. The card is capable of delivering 80 megabytes per second, which would be 16x realtime for 720/24p, or 6x realtime for 1080p/1080i or 720/60p. But if you're transferring over USB2, you'll be capped to a max of 480mbps, and then it's all up to your drive. If you're writing to a slow hard disk, that'll be the bottleneck.

The P2 Store device can transfer an 8gb card in 8 minutes, but faster hard drives should make that even faster. Theoretically if you were transferring to a RAID, you should be able to transfer an 8gb card in a minute and a half, but it all depends on the hardware you're using.

If it's under 5 minutes, you could almost get by shooting narrative with 1 8g card. Shoot 5 - 10 takes, break for another shot, and while setting up you could offload the p2 card.

Obviously not ideal, you'd probably want 3 or 4 cards, but hey, you could make it work.
Oh, most definitely. You could do it with a 4gb card as well. I'd think 3 cards is the number you'd need for a seamless workflow (i.e., never having to stop the camera to transfer files) but you could totally work in narrative with just one card, and either hand it to someone to transfer on a laptop, or have an assistant who plugs in a hard drive and offloads the card whenever it's full. Even at the P2 Store speed of one minute per gig, it'd only take 8 minutes to offload a full card, and it takes a lot more than 8 minutes to set up a new shot!

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 10:34 AM

any idea about how the focus and irs remotes will work? will it be a pot that adjusts the position at a variable speed (like a zoom zontroler?) or will be be a "focus demand" type where the position of the pot will determin an exact, repeatable position?
That's up to the guys who design them. Look for people like VariZoom and Bogen and Zoe, they'll all likely be making them.

Oh yeah, and any word on variable framerates? is it just the 3 presets, or is there more control?
There will definitely be more control than just those three, but they didn't give us a list of what the exact framerates would be. It'll be more like the VariCam than just three frame rates.

Rich Lee

04-18-2005, 10:38 AM

i just read the article. good job guys! its a great article, as usual!

the cam is pretty badass...cant wait to play with one!

andy_starbuck

04-18-2005, 10:40 AM

I was wondering whether the HVX will preserve my investment in DVX accessories? In particular, I am wondering about the compatibility with the Wide Angle, Telephoto, and Anamorphic lenses.

Also, what kind of battery does it use? And will the HVX handle a 4x4 Chrosziel Mattebox?

What is the color space for the HVX? Will it do better chromakey than SD/DV ?

Thanks,

Andy

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 10:42 AM

Not likely to use the same lens accessories, I believe the lens is 82mm diameter rather than 72mm on the DVX.

The batteries are the same as the DVX.

It should be able to use the same 4x4 Chrosziel.

The color space is 4:2:2 in HD and DVCPRO50. ***MUCH*** better chroma-keying than DV! In DV it's still 4:1:1.

mikkowilson

04-18-2005, 11:02 AM

Barry, you miss understood my question...

I was wondering if the focus and iris input woudl bix indexed, not relative.
- it it's be like useing a real FF, not just a rocker.

- Mikko

Sumfun

04-18-2005, 11:09 AM

Barry, thanks for the quick clarification on the direct to disk recording. I guess we'll have to wait a little longer to find out. I'm sure it's a business decision as well as a technical one. After all, Panny probably makes a lot more profit from selling P2 cards than from selling cameras.

Luis Caffesse

04-18-2005, 11:17 AM

Barry, thanks for the direct and clear answer on the hard drive questions.
I hope it's alright with you, I've reprinted your answer on my site, together with a link to this thread.

If that is a problem, just let me know and I'll remove the text.

Thanks for all your hard work!

www.videoindie.com
HVX News, links, and updates as I get them (from jarred and barry mainly)
:)

Phooey

04-18-2005, 11:25 AM

The best move for Panasonic will probably be record to P2, dump to drive, and then include a 4GB card when it ships. That would be alright with me, not to mention more stable.

adaml

04-18-2005, 11:30 AM

Could anyone at NAB provide actual dimensions of the HVX?

Neil Rowe

04-18-2005, 11:32 AM

..yeah, even if you can go direct to HDD id still shoot onto the P2 and then dump to HDD whenever possible.. its way more stabil of a workflow. plus you can only plug in the HDD when needed to dump good takes, and not have it sucking juice or tying you down the whole time. if they throw in a 4 or 8 GB card with the cam il be a happy camper. although it would be great to be able to go straight to HDD for the long record times when needed as well.

adaml

04-18-2005, 11:33 AM

BTW, thanks to Barry, Jarred, and everyone else at NAB for providing us with all the info.

saru

04-18-2005, 11:50 AM

Thanks Barry and Jarred, it is the ABSOLUTELY great article about the ABSOLUTELY great camera EVER !!

Phooey

04-18-2005, 11:50 AM

I'll second that. Seriously, thanks a bunch. sucks not being there.

Sumfun

04-18-2005, 12:04 PM

Barry and Jarred,

One more question. Is that HVX model that you saw a working model? If not, when did Panny say they can give you some video samples?

seantree

04-18-2005, 12:06 PM

I hope the final looks like the one in the pics. She is quite sexy!!! Thanks for the article guys. keep the info comin'

JoeFowler

04-18-2005, 12:13 PM

Am I missing something? What was the price? I read that it will be $49 more then the sony, how much is that, am I misunderstanding?

johnc

04-18-2005, 12:29 PM

$5995 MSRP w/o P2 cards.

johnc

B._Summers

04-18-2005, 01:31 PM

How much will P2 cards be?

on top of the 6,000...

Zig_Zigman

04-18-2005, 01:36 PM

At the moment, you can get two thrown in with your camera for 9995.00

They camera and storage packages are separate, because p2 prices will be dropping rapidly.

reservoir

04-18-2005, 01:44 PM

Did I hear someone say the 2GB P2 card *WILL NOT* record HD (DVCPRO-HD)??

Why not?

~reservoir~

murraja

04-18-2005, 01:48 PM

Barry & Jarred: Thanks for all the hard work and the wealth of information. It really helps all of us who can't be there in-person.

Great Job!

Ernest_Acosta

04-18-2005, 01:48 PM

What kind of monitor will be necessary for this camera and will Final Cut HD be able to work with it?

Jourabchi

04-18-2005, 01:53 PM

Thank god its still a prototype cause the damn thing need a sholder mount of some sort something small and attatchable like the attachment for the fx1....the hell if i would want to hold anything of that size handheld for more then 20 minutes.....rediculous....i needs support .....a MUST HAVE

johnc

04-18-2005, 02:05 PM

Did I hear someone say the 2GB P2 card *WILL NOT* record HD (DVCPRO-HD)??

Why not?

~reservoir~

See https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/index.html (http://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/index.html) .

No HD. Just SD.

johnc

J.D.

04-18-2005, 02:13 PM

I hurt my hand a couple of months ago shooting hand held for hours with the DVX, still hurts, gotta be careful when you are getting old!

Monglane

04-18-2005, 02:16 PM

Jarred and Barry, great article ! Thanks to both of you guys.

[grumble mode]
Grrrmmmbblll... wish they would change the color of that blueish grey housing... grrrmmbblll...
[/grumble mode]

:o))

Digigenic

04-18-2005, 02:29 PM

Did I hear someone say the 2GB P2 card *WILL NOT* record HD (DVCPRO-HD)??

Why not?
With such a high data rewriting rate going into those smaller P2 cards, the card would be more prone to sector loss errors.

reservoir

04-18-2005, 02:34 PM

So 4GB and up only for HD. Well...that's not so bad. My *game-plan* so far is to get the HVX, one 4GB card and a nice sized FW HD. If the prices hold out....I should be under 8K. And WELL under 10k for that matter.

~reservoir~

jonahlee

04-18-2005, 02:53 PM

Thank you for the wonderful article. I was supposed to be at NAB but couldn't go do to work, and this camera and the new Apple products were my main focus. You have really given me the look at the camera that I wanted (or at least as much as I can without a hands on).

I can't believe this camera. If the quality delivers what the features are promissing, I think HDV has just become a completely consumer format, and this camera has completely replaced it in the Pro and Prosumer market. What independent film won't want this camera for their production instead of any other video camera for less than 100,000?

WOW!

jonahlee

04-18-2005, 03:02 PM

Is it true that the 8GB cards will be around $1750 now, the same price that Panasonic is selling the current 4GB cards for?

Unix

04-18-2005, 03:02 PM

heck yeah!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mini dv tapes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
true 16x9, 1080/24p
so it comes to the US around Oct/Nov 2005?
so for the same price of an XL2 I can get HD
and for the same price of a Zu1 I can get 24p and not Sony's stupid cine frame which is stroby as heck

I'll have my 5 g's awaiting

long live Panasonic!!!!!!

stephenlnoe

04-18-2005, 03:07 PM

6G's hombre + Tax

ddh

04-18-2005, 03:23 PM

This cam does seem to have it all. Can't wait to get my grubby little hands on it here in Tokyo.

Philipp

04-18-2005, 03:26 PM

Wellwellwell, now it's that the small P2 cards do not work with HD? Is that true (it's late aand I have been to work, so couldn't read too much).

Pani is giving us the '*§&% "Haha, see, it's less than 6.000" And bit by bit it raises and raises. Sony gives You a cam, batteries, cables and the first tape on a nice price.

Why didn't they just play fair and announce a HD bundle for less than 10.000? That would have been the clou as well. And a fair one.

reservoir

04-18-2005, 03:34 PM

What the hell are you talking about Philipp? 4GB and 8GB cards work with HD. The 2GB cards work with everything except HD (At least that is my current understanding!!)

What part about *Less than 10k* don't you understand. Oh I get it....it's all a "conspiracy" right? :undecided

~reservoir~

EDIT:
According to this article: http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/P2/
The 2GB P2 *WILL* record DVCPRO-HD. 2 minutes worth. Trying to get some clarification on this now.....!!

Luis Caffesse

04-18-2005, 03:40 PM

Why didn't they just play fair and announce a HD bundle for less than 10.000? That would have been the clou as well. And a fair one.

If I"m not mistaken, the did announce an HD bundle for less than 10K.
I read that you'll be able to buy the camera bundled with 2 P2 cards for $9995

But, for those who don't want to jump in with both feet, you can get just the cam for 6K, and then buy what you want, when you want.

Sounds like the best of both worlds to me.
What's wrong with choice?

Philipp

04-18-2005, 03:41 PM

What part about *Less than 10k* don't you understand. Oh I get it....it's all a "conspiracy" right? :undecided

~reservoir~

Oh, the first part is quite clear. The Rest of this frenetic day was just very much under the impression everybody was saying "aaah" and "ooooh" and "Ow it's suck a cutey for less than 6Kay" It was http://www.kontraband.com/show/show.asp?ID=2197&NEXTID=0&PREVID=0&DISPLAYORDER=20050418190530&CAT=movies&NSFW=3&page=1
everywhere.

But that seems to be normal for the first day. tomorrow we have to pay the hooker and than it's Outch instead of Oh.

It seems to be a great camera. But it's definitely not "cheap"

reservoir

04-18-2005, 03:45 PM

"Ow it's suck a cutey for less than 6Kay"

"All your base are belong to us" ..................... "Someone set us up the bomb"

:huh:
~reservoir~

JoeF

04-18-2005, 03:48 PM

My Mind Is Blown. Thanks.

Unix

04-18-2005, 03:50 PM

6 g's it's the MSRP

but wait , so I won't record HD to mini dv tapes????????????????????
how about on a hard dirve via DVrack (I guess HDRack by then)

is Panasonic the only one with the lincense to make those cards how about PNY, Lexar,Kingston, etc they could make those same cards for cheaper, which will in turn have more people buy the camera because of the affordable media

I think the design it's ok
yeah I could use a shoulder mount
oh well

ArkhamFilms

04-18-2005, 04:05 PM

Truly great article Jarred & Barry. This camera is f*cking amazing. I've been draggin my jaw around at the Panasonic & Apple booths all day today. It's a fat little beast of a camera. I love it.

Can't wait for the show tonight.

-CJ

Jlucan

04-18-2005, 04:11 PM

I didn't read the entire thread...but is the lens the same 72mm as the dvx?

Chapman

04-18-2005, 04:21 PM

I actually like the look of the dvx100a better then the HVX, but I'd still rather have the HVX.

acoreasc

04-18-2005, 04:29 PM

Barry or Jared, did you get to see the "dump" drive that panasonic is offering for the P2 cards? Any info on that?

Dmitry Kichenko

04-18-2005, 04:30 PM

Jlucan - read the article (http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/HVX200/).

John C Lyons

04-18-2005, 04:39 PM

great job jarred, thanks!

yeah it definitely is quite a bit bigger than the DVX. the pics were deceiving early on, i assumed they were the same shell basically...

anyhow, thanks!

10s

04-18-2005, 04:42 PM

This puppy looks great, the specs are beyond belief and panasonic listened to us, thanks Jan. I'm one happy camper. I think they just changed the industry for everyone...it'll never be the same. This tool will have a profound ripple effect for many years.

Congratulations everyone on giving your input to help design our new camera... now let's save our money, go get it & make some great movies.

Next goal: free the film/television industry from the stranglehold of the few.

shAi

04-18-2005, 05:04 PM

being one of the early in mind converted to P2, i was first disappointed to see there a tape drive. we know it makes the camera more costy to manufacture (or pay-off with compromises.. even worse), hurts the design, weight etc.
until i found this:

The camera can also do real-time downconversion from the P2 card to DV tape. Buttons on the back of the camera let you control dubbing from the card to the tape, converting from the high-definition DVCPRO-HD image to standard-definition DV, even preserving timecode. And, get this – you can shoot in 720p at variable frame rates, and downconvert that to DV, so you can get the great slow-motion and fast-motion capability even in standard-def! It can also dub footage from the P2 card directly to an iPod, or to an external USB hard disk.

now that might make the tape drive worth the suffer for 2 years, as SD is, still, here. and if the camera is such a mini nuclear reactor capable of those real transition friendly features.. it will also make an easier farewell to the DVX, and therefor some $$ for the new dude (dude? . .. this one is NO baby anyway).

which leaves only to findout how good this down-conversion is, and then to ask, if it does know how to dow-convert in realtime, why not recording to a tiny, built in ram and therefor straight to tape?

all and all, some amazing improvements. the longer lens (i want my orange numbers back on it though!).. tones of little great stuff.

my DVX shakes frightened in her case. how did she got so old in one day.

DonDula

04-18-2005, 05:17 PM

yellowdog

04-18-2005, 05:32 PM

did shannon rawls buy one yet? *smile*

taubkin

04-18-2005, 06:20 PM

I can imagine jan and the other Panasonic Reps laughing reading sony and JVC Releases, months ago... Man those were probably some great staff meetings!

You did it. Beautifully, gracefully, intelligently. You might have just accelerated the HD deelopment with your products, making it possible to produce independent quality content for HD. You make it possible for us to make MUCH cleaner transfers (and they aren't bad as they are now!). The only question I have is: who am I going to sell my DVX to, in order to raise the money?

This will brake the film barrier as the VX1000 did with broadcast video, and when everybody starts referring to panasonic for indie film production as they do sony with broadcast theese days, it will be clear it was worth it. That's the way to run a company! Congratulations!

rbilsbor

04-18-2005, 06:59 PM

WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Awesome.

Great job Panasonic.

Give the artists what they want and the art will get better.

I know a camera never made a great movie but the removal of barriers is very important in art and cost is one barrier.

Thanks so much.

And it takes the same batteries! Perfect, I have 20...

Inigo_Montoya

04-18-2005, 06:59 PM

$10.000 for going HD?

man I was thinking to buy a 16mm SRII and I'll have to spent 20.000$, optics, movie tripods ($5000) and still need to buy negative and lab and transfer at a cost of $500 every 11 minutes.
And here in Ecuador we have no lab, so $500 more for every trip to transfer to Miami.

That cam it's free after shooting 200 minutes of footage.

And you guys still say that $9900 is pricey????

Antoine_Fabi

04-18-2005, 07:00 PM

Wow, can't believe it !

Bravo Panasonic !
Thanks Jan !

When will it be available ?

I was dreaming about such a powerfull but lightweight camcorder...
It is reality !

RyanF

04-18-2005, 07:07 PM

Everything sounds great to me, accept one thing so far. I shoot mostly action sports and go hand held quite often. I can get a steadier low angle if i hold the camera from underneath with my left hand. I will do this also when doing some "follow cam" following along with the athlete on a skateboard. When you're doing this you're kind of shooting blindly with a wide angle adaptor, hence no monitoring your shot. So here's my worry: THE USER BUTTONS!

Anyone see how sloppy a situation this will become? The user buttons look almost unavoidable if your holding the camera from below. I can't wait to hit that "fade to black" preset on one of them and not know it.

PUT THEM BACK PANASONIC!!! This is VERY placement for anyone who shoots on a split second notice (and everyone does). Maybe you could include a "lock" button to disengage them?

Excited to get one, kind of scared to use it. . . for now!

RyanF

04-18-2005, 07:08 PM

um. . . VERY BAD placement. . . . sorry

turk

04-18-2005, 07:17 PM

What a piece of puff and fluff junk! Jan is clueless and Panny is...wait...hmmm...where and to whom do I place my advance order?! !@@! ...at a 15% discount, of course...

;-)

Zack Birlew

04-18-2005, 08:26 PM

Well, I got up close to the camera as well, but I couldn't find where we got "hands on" with the camera, they just had the camera in a glass case on display. Maybe I missed the 4:00 meeting? I don't know, but at least I've seen the thing and there's always tommorow! But just to give you a good idea of how the HVX200 footage will look, I will reference the footage shown off for the new JVC. Imagine "Buffy The Vampire Slayer" or "Angel", that's about how good the JVC looked on 720/24p to me, not so good but close anyway. I figure you add in the advanced color space, the less compressed footage, all the added fine details, and you have something amazing!

I "piloted" the Varicam setup they had there and I must say, that camera is the best of the best that I saw today. A lot of the time, when I looked at the footage, the only differences I could notice were fine details, such as cracks in wood or stone rock detail, and color accuracy. Maybe there's too much thought going into resolution and picture quality?

By the way, judging from the XL2 footage I saw, some incredible stuff could be done with that camera. I don't think people have set the camera up right somewhere, because the XL2's on display at the Canon booth looked really filmlike and some of the demo footage they were playing looked very close to something along the lines of "Friends" and "Sex and the City". I don't know if it was lighting finesse or what. I don't think we should write Canon off yet, there's still some potential in there, even if it's in the SD domain.

dvxStephen

04-18-2005, 08:48 PM

I understand how P2 cards loom large in the future -- but this camera isn't shipping for maybe 6 months. Meanwhile, has there been any word at NAB about Panasonic's supposed release of their new AJ-SD225 deck? A ship date for this deck?

With component ins, and the abliity to record HD50 (and DV25) in the field, it would work nicely with the HDX when it DOES come out, and meanwhile it would make for great green screen work with any camera capable of component output. Like an old betacam...

According to Panasonic's February Press release, this new portable deck (retails for about 5k) will be able to accept component level signals. Since the HDX apparently has component ouptputs, it looks like this would be an alternative to cards till they get cheaper, that would also allow relatively inexpensive archiving of HD50 footage.

Anyone at NAB willing to check on this? Google searching for AJ-SD225 just brings up Panny's 2 month old press release!

Thanks!

Ernest_Acosta

04-18-2005, 09:13 PM

Barry or Jarred, would this workflow work for the new camera? Say a person rent the AJ-HD1200A DVCPRO HD deck/vtr. Footage is transferred from the camera to this deck, then the deck's firewire connection sends the files to a G4 or G5 running Final Cut Pro HD for editing. Your G4/G5 is loaded up with 4 inexepensive (under $150) 250GB maxtor drives or 1 terabyte of storage. Theoretically, this workflow should work for this camera? I know this isn't ideal for mobile run and gun type shooting, but it could be ideal for the filmmaker shooting dolly, static, crane shots and even some handheld. It would be a lot less cheaper than buying the P2 cards and storing High Def files won't be a problem. Can you ask the Panasonic reps if this is doable. Many thanks.

bgundu

04-18-2005, 09:16 PM

Anyone see how sloppy a situation this will become? The user buttons look almost unavoidable if your holding the camera from below. I can't wait to hit that "fade to black" preset on one of them and not know it.

PUT THEM BACK PANASONIC!!! This is VERY placement for anyone who shoots on a split second notice (and everyone does). Maybe you could include a "lock" button to disengage them?

Just set the USER buttons to MODE CHECK and there is no harm done if pressed.

Drew599

04-18-2005, 09:48 PM

Ryan F, I don't think the DVX or the HVX is ment to be held in the way your trying to do. I film a lot of skateboarding and snowboarding...or at least I use to. So I know what your talking about. You should try and hold it by the handle ontop of the camera. But I'm sure you've found that if you do that the camera moves a lot from when you push off to keep up. So I guess you will just have to try and keep it steady when you move. Or try not to hit the buttons on the side when your filming. Also you could try and change your filming style a little and just plan your shots you so you only move a little and you use the zoom and focus to get your shots. But I understand that some of the lines people do go over a long distance and when you follow someone you get an idea of how fast they're going, which can be an important part of what your trying to get. I guess you can have your opinion about the button layout on the new camera but to try and lump everyone together that "shoots on a split second notice" is just your perception. I'm sure many people that shoot on a split second notice hold the camera the correct way.

Richardm

04-18-2005, 11:02 PM

This is a great time.....now more than ever there's no excuse to why not go out there and play with the big boys. People, get your crew, work the story, plan ahead and make a movie!!!!! Im so happy!!!! This fall is going to be GRRREEEAAAT!

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:07 PM

What kind of monitor will be necessary for this camera and will Final Cut HD be able to work with it?
First, yes, Final Cut HD already works with it. They had the editing fully integrated before they even announced the camera. Final Cut HD uses DVCPRO-HD.

As for monitoring, well, with the focus assist and the peaking and the full underscan all happening in the LCD, a lot of the reasons why you'd otherwise need a field monitor are at least somewhat covered. But if you do want to monitor, you'll need either a 1080 or a 720-capable monitor, depending on what you intend to shoot. Sony and Panasonic are both introducing HD LCD portable monitors, but I didn't pay much attention to the specs or pricing.

Dell has the 2405FPW flat-panel desktop LCD that has component inputs and 1920x1200 resolution, for under $1000, that could make for a great affordable monitor for 1080p/1080i footage.

Aaron Koolen

04-18-2005, 11:09 PM

What about studio monitoring when you're editing? Are there any HD monitors? I'd assume they are VERY expensive!?

Aaron

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:09 PM

I can't believe this camera. If the quality delivers what the features are promissing, I think HDV has just become a completely consumer format, and this camera has completely replaced it in the Pro and Prosumer market.
Agreed. Which seems like where HDV was always headed, with Sharp on the consortium and Panasonic not. But the JVC HDV/Pro-HD camera sure looks non-consumer, and the Z1 is a nice camera too... but I totally agree, the buzz about HDV is going to change significantly in Q4 2005!

What independent film won't want this camera for their production instead of any other video camera for less than 100,000? WOW!
Agreed again. Granted there are some who will crave the fully-manual lens of the XL2 or the JVC HD100, but 1080/24p is awfully hard to beat!

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:10 PM

Am I missing something? What was the price? I read that it will be $49 more then the sony, how much is that, am I misunderstanding?
Z1's MSRP is $5,946, the HVX's MSRP is $5,995.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:16 PM

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:18 PM

I was just wondering, if I were to shoot a 2 hour event in 1080p 24p lets say to a firewire HDD, after editing what would be the most optimal form of media to copy the finished product to, that an average consumer would be able to view, because not everyone will have a blue-ray player at first.
You've just asked the million-dollar question. There is no HD delivery medium yet. About the only way to distribute your work, where people would actually have a way of watching it, would be to encode it using Windows Media 10, in HD resolution, and burn that HD file onto a DVD-ROM, so they could play it back in their computer (although I don't know that Windows Media could compress 2 hours of HD-caliber video to fit onto a single DVD...)

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:18 PM

Could anyone at NAB provide actual dimensions of the HVX?
Didn't think to do so, but if you look at the article Jarred posted, we got tons of pictures of it side-by-side with the DVX, so you may be able to extrapolate from there.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:23 PM

Barry or Jared, did you get to see the "dump" drive that panasonic is offering for the P2 cards? Any info on that?
Yes, they had it there. Hope Jan doesn't shoot me, but I don't think it's really anything that most of us would bother with. It's $1800, and it's using a laptop hard disk at 60gb. But the thing is, the camera itself can do almost everything the P2 Store does. You could buy an off-the-shelf USB2 hard disk, plug it into the camera, and when you're done shooting a take, instruct the camera to go into "dub mode" and it'll copy the contents of the P2 card (or cards) onto your external hard disk.

That way you don't have to use a proprietary, expensive hard disk solution, you could just use a cheap off-the-shelf hard disk. And you don't need a laptop to do that either.

What the P2 Store does is let you do long continuous takes, by letting you hot-swap cards while offloading them. Using the camera itself to do the offloading means you can't be recording at the same time, but using the P2 Store to offload the cards means the camera can keep recording.

So for those doing long continuous event shooting, the P2 Store has advantages (but then again, a regular laptop computer could do a similar job, for a lot less money, but the P2 Store's a lot more portable, but the laptop could be running DV Rack or something similar... ahhh, choices choices...)

I think most of us, who intend to shoot a lot of footage throughout the day, would get in the habit of executing a dub to HD whenever there's a break in the action, or when you're setting up for the next shot, etc. That way you could shoot all day, and at the end of the day have a hard disk full of footage you could hand off to the producer or editor.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:24 PM

I didn't read the entire thread...but is the lens the same 72mm as the dvx?
No, it's 82mm. When they made it longer (they went to 58.5mm max. telephoto instead of the DVX's 45mm) it apparently necessitated a wider diameter.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:32 PM

how about on a hard dirve via DVrack (I guess HDRack by then)
Definitely, provided that the computer and program can support 100-megabit data streams, you could totally do streaming to a computer or external hard disk recorder.

is Panasonic the only one with the lincense to make those cards how about PNY, Lexar,Kingston, etc they could make those same cards for cheaper, which will in turn have more people buy the camera because of the affordable media
Panasonic's been quite open about this, they will license the P2 specs to anyone who wants to make the cards, just like they licensed out the specs to DVCPRO tape so Fuji and Maxell could start making it. If the camera sells well, and there's a demand for P2 cards, you can pretty much count on the idea that there will be suppliers other than Panasonic, just like there are multiple suppliers of DV tape.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:33 PM

Why didn't they just play fair and announce a HD bundle for less than 10.000? That would have been the clou as well. And a fair one.
Philipp, you've been consistently negative. Please try to give them the benefit of the doubt. For example, you ask why they didn't "play fair" and announce a HD bundle for less than 10.000?

They DID!

They announced exactly that -- the camera plus two 8gb cards will carry an MSRP of $9995.

But in addition to doing that, they ALSO announced that you can buy the camera separately, for $5995. That's a *bonus*, not a case of "not playing fair".

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:37 PM

Is it true that the 8GB cards will be around $1750 now, the same price that Panasonic is selling the current 4GB cards for?
Panasonic didn't announce the price of the 8gb cards. They did announce a bundle deal where you get two 8gb cards in addition to the camera for $9995, vs. the camera alone for $5995, so one could extrapolate that an 8gb card will be $2000. However, there's a disclaimer that says something like "bundle pricing does not necessarily reflect the individual 8gb card pricing" or something.

Suffice it to say that with a RAM-based product, it'll be fairly impossible to accurately predict what the price will be until it's ready to be introduced. The 8gb card isn't coming on market until sometime like August, so it could be $2,000, or it could be quite a bit less, or it could be more... I don't think they've definitively said what it will be, and I don't think they can make that prediction right now.

Barry_Green

04-18-2005, 11:38 PM

Barry and Jarred,

One more question. Is that HVX model that you saw a working model? If not, when did Panny say they can give you some video samples?
Not a working model. Jan said it will probably be later Summer before they have working models with video samples. She specifically said that with the DVX, the first footage samples were released a week or so after DV Expo East, and she's expecting this camera may follow a similar development cycle.

Luis Caffesse

04-19-2005, 12:31 AM

Barry, thanks for all the great information.
I'm not sure if you saw my post earlier today (it's been a crazy day), but I'm adding a lot of the info you're giving us to an HVX blog I put together just to have all the info in one place.

Please let me know if that's alright with you.
I don't want to step on any toes by paraphrasing or directly quoting you without permission.

www.videoindie.com
HVX News, Links and Updates as I get them

Barry_Green

04-19-2005, 01:00 AM

As long as everything's quoted in context, sure, post away.

Luis Caffesse

04-19-2005, 01:03 AM

Thanks Barry

Cecil_Beta

04-19-2005, 01:18 AM

Barry and Jarred,
Great review!!!
I wonder how long we will have to wait in PAL Land for our camera?
Does the focus ring have hard stops? Please say yes...
(I hope it does, unlike the DVX100/A with the rotating focus ring/servo. I just purchased a Century focus ring for my DVX and of course that won't fit the new baby.)
Keep up the good work.

Rogue Crew

04-19-2005, 01:19 AM

Jan said it will probably be later Summer before they have working models with video samples. She specifically said that with the DVX, the first footage samples were released a week or so after DV Expo East, and she's expecting this camera may follow a similar development cycle.

Hot diggity dog! I'm going to DV Expo East in Manhattan. That probably means I'll be able to report to you guys on the "real" camera, rather that a factory mock-up.

Since Panny are located right here in the Garden State, I'm going to give Jan a little breather after NAB, then ask her if we could organize a little factory tour for East Coast DVXUsers. Anyone who is in this neck of the woods, IM or email me if you'd be interested in such a tour.

Barry_Green

04-19-2005, 01:37 AM

Well, to tour the "factory" would require a pretty lengthy boat ride, 'cause I'm pretty sure all the manufacturing takes place in Japan... ;)

araujofh

04-19-2005, 02:43 AM

You've just asked the million-dollar question. There is no HD delivery medium yet. About the only way to distribute your work, where people would actually have a way of watching it, would be to encode it using Windows Media 10, in HD resolution, and burn that HD file onto a DVD-ROM, so they could play it back in their computer (although I don't know that Windows Media could compress 2 hours of HD-caliber video to fit onto a single DVD...)

Isn't there a player that reads WM9 already? I had the impression that I saw that somewhere. Can anyone confirm this?

thisiswells

04-19-2005, 02:51 AM

Avel Link Player. Barry Green first pointed this out to me.

araujofh

04-19-2005, 02:58 AM

Guys,

I am impressed with this camera. And I don't think Panasonic will disappoint us.
I am waiting until this camera comes out, and to be honest I may get one.
It has been so exciting for me since last week. I couldn't wait for this day to come. Now that it finally did, I am just amazed with the specs.

If I do buy it, I certainly am not going to use tapes. No more MQ or PQ dilemma, no more dirty heads. Enough of those things, cause I live in a very hot country and man, what a nightmare to shoot something.

Thanks for the review Jarred and Barry

All the best

Fidel.

Haakon

04-19-2005, 04:02 AM

Just in case anyone is wondering about actual dimensions, here's a picture of me from NAB holding the HVX they had on display to show how large it is in an actual person's hands. (It's sometimes difficult to tell how big something is in those product shots alone).

http://www.showchoir.com/IMG_3088.jpg

I think it's better looking in-person than what they're showing on the website, but it's still not quite as cool as the DVX and I would do a lot of things different with button placements, etc. I think if they made the entire thing black, people would be much happier... but it seems that they're trying to "match" it to the rest of their line. Whatever. There is no other camera even close to this price range that can do the kinds of things that the HVX can, and I'm more than willing to overlook mediocre aesthetics in order to have access to everything this thing can do. The sample they had on display was not a functioning model, so I can't say exactly how the ergonomics of it flowed in a production setting, but it was definitely comfortable to hold and carry.

There are a million things I could say about NAB today, but it's 4 in the morning and I have to be up in about 2 hours so I'll keep it short. I will say that Panasonic absolutely dominated the showroom floor... their display was amazing (did you guys get to use the "pro" cams in that mock-kitchen setup? Unreal!) and I really think they're going to be blazing trails in the year to come. I saw JVC's moderately-sized booth, but I didn't even see Sony presence the entire day I was there (they must have been there, but they didn't do a very good job of showing it). It was also cool to see Jared, Barry, Noel, and Jan, and most of all, it was so cool to see that Panasonic truly listened to the online community of DVX users and took everyone's comments into consideration when making the HVX. I think they will be rewarded greatly for it.

Best tagline from the 3D demonstration:

"Panasonic P2 - The only moving part is you!"

(And how 'bout them horses?!)

planetearth

04-19-2005, 04:55 AM

Well, I can vouch for the fact that the HVX has already prooven itself as a breadwinner. I had 4 proposals due yesterday and I committed to the fact that I would not log on to check out this camera until I finished them all. Well damn it made me work fast. Proposals are done and as far as I'm concerned, the camera has already paid for itself.

Thanks for all the great info. The HVX seems to be the exactly what the doctor ordered.

Jarred Land

04-19-2005, 05:50 AM

Guilty.

Double Guilty.

Jarred Land

04-19-2005, 05:53 AM

thanks Haakon for the size reference, that was a good idea.

mgalvan

04-19-2005, 06:48 AM

Hot diggity dog! I'm going to DV Expo East in Manhattan. That probably means I'll be able to report to you guys on the "real" camera, rather that a factory mock-up.

Since Panny are located right here in the Garden State, I'm going to give Jan a little breather after NAB, then ask her if we could organize a little factory tour for East Coast DVXUsers. Anyone who is in this neck of the woods, IM or email me if you'd be interested in such a tour.

Hey, I'm down ....

Erik Olson

04-19-2005, 07:17 AM

Question: does it seem like the viewfinder no longer folds out against the body to lock for 1st assistant use? The one in the P2 video looks like it is beveled to the point where it would not.

e

Phooey

04-19-2005, 07:31 AM

You've just asked the million-dollar question. There is no HD delivery medium yet. About the only way to distribute your work, where people would actually have a way of watching it, would be to encode it using Windows Media 10, in HD resolution, and burn that HD file onto a DVD-ROM, so they could play it back in their computer (although I don't know that Windows Media could compress 2 hours of HD-caliber video to fit onto a single DVD...)

Quicktime 7, coming out very soon, will also do HD. It uses the H.264 codec which also happens to be the codec they're going to use for Blue-Ray. It seems it'll even fit a 2 hour movie on a DVD. Supposedly, you can even burn HD to DVD through DVD Studio Pro 4, but I have no idea what could play it.

jpbankesmercer

04-19-2005, 09:32 AM

I'm starting saving.
Better work out some slow-mo ideas...
J.P.

kai

04-19-2005, 10:36 AM

Phooey

04-19-2005, 10:38 AM

Cool. From regular DVD's? or are you talking about a Blue-Ray player?

jonahlee

04-19-2005, 11:01 AM

Quicktime 7, coming out very soon, will also do HD. It uses the H.264 codec which also happens to be the codec they're going to use for Blue-Ray. It seems it'll even fit a 2 hour movie on a DVD. Supposedly, you can even burn HD to DVD through DVD Studio Pro 4, but I have no idea what could play it.
Any G5 equiped Macintosh is supposed to play it back, even the low end G5 iMacs, but a G5 or better is required for playback.

Actually my biggest question on this camera is archiving your material. We will need blue-ray discs just to archive all our shot material, and need quite a few of them at the amount of material these cameras will acumulate.

I work in DVD Special Features, and many studios are wanting to shoot HD material now, and especially very soon, but most studios want to own the physical tapes that the material was shot on. The problem that I see with this camera is that without tapes, you will have to archive all your material to Blue-Ray or some other medium as a back up for the studios.

Oh well, just some thoughts I have been having.

SoerenM

04-19-2005, 11:03 AM

ivan

04-19-2005, 11:59 AM

hi soeren,

i think jonahlee´s problem is about archieving the full 80 or 100mbit streams...
the only way would really be harddiscs until blueray will come up... or tapestreamers...

cheers

jonahlee

04-19-2005, 12:06 PM

Yea, and I have had way too many harddrive failures to trust that format. Maybe a DCVCPRO HD Deck and make actual tapes out of the footage? Hmm. That is an expensive solution though.

ivan

04-19-2005, 12:13 PM

i think panasonic is already selling a blue ray recorder in japan... maybe they will come till the end of the year to u.s. too... would be a great timing...

@ jarred and barry:

great article! the only thing i´m still missing is the resolution of the display... ?

Haakon

04-19-2005, 12:19 PM

Yea, and I have had way too many harddrive failures to trust that format. Maybe a DCVCPRO HD Deck and make actual tapes out of the footage? Hmm. That is an expensive solution though.
Jan had mentioned that DVCPRO HD tapes at 60 minutes run over $100 each, and even if price was no consideration, the tapes would still need to be digitized in order to use the content stored on them (a step this new camera completely eliminates.) It seems to me that Blu-Ray or some other new technology (holographic discs were also brought up at the meeting, though I doubt anything like that will be even remotely available when the camera ships) would be a much better solution.

Simon Wyndham

04-19-2005, 01:17 PM

"Next goal: free the film/television industry from the stranglehold of the few."

Hmm, guys, can we just remember one thing here. High Def does not qualify you to make primetime TV. *talent* does (or who you know. Depends on who you ask ;) )

Also, I agree that the blue-grey thing is a bit 'off'. Also I wish they would change the shape of the bit in front of the viewfinder. It makes the viewfinder assembly look like a vacuum cleaner handle.

Shaw

04-19-2005, 01:23 PM

Who you know does matter. What many forget is that talent usually determines who you know!

DonDula

04-19-2005, 01:52 PM

The first players are out that can play HD from a standard DVD (DVD-R etc.) when the video is encoded with WMV9 (aka VC-1) or DivX/XviD (both MPEG4 derivates) ... basis for this development is a chip from Sigma that can decode both even up to HD res!

See http://www.divx.com/hd/ for example! And KISS Technology (from scandinavia) is about to ship/release their HD player too... so where's the prob?! ;)

I think the problem is, untill the majority of people start to buy blue-ray or HD-dvd players, this camera wouldn't be the best choice for most videographers because how would you distribute your work to the common household? I was going crazy about the camera until I thought about that one aspect.

Simon Wyndham

04-19-2005, 02:08 PM

"Who you know does matter. What many forget is that talent usually determines who you know!"

Thats one of the most brilliant sentences I've read in a long time! Thanks!

Phooey

04-19-2005, 02:35 PM

"Who you know does matter. What many forget is that talent usually determines who you know!"

Thats one of the most brilliant sentences I've read in a long time! Thanks!

Not really because then it's not who you know, it's talent. I think the original point was that sometimes crap gets made because of Uncle Mike. But not most of the time. Did someone even make this point. I think it was a sidebar.

SoerenM

04-19-2005, 02:49 PM

Hi Ivan! You're here too? ;-P
Of course I was only referring to the "problem" of final "end user delivery".

@DonDula ... of course currently as Barry said most people would only be able to get HD content delivered via DVD or internet to their PCs. And the PC needs to be fast enough of course. Perhaps 720p is even more interesting in this regard as it doesn't need as much processing power to be decoded/played as 1080p...
And there are many people out there using modified X-Boxes or off the shelf HTPCs or even assembled their own which are already able to play HD content.
Of course nothing that's close to being a mass market or something like that... not yet at least.
So I guess we'd have to find a way to deliver via cable & satellite?! ;-P

Simon Wyndham

04-19-2005, 02:50 PM

Hehe. The way I read it was that if you have talent then people naturally want to hang out with you, hence making more contacts, making more money etc.

Kennedy

04-19-2005, 02:53 PM

I think the problem is, untill the majority of people start to buy blue-ray or HD-dvd players, this camera wouldn't be the best choice for most videographers because how would you distribute your work to the common household? I was going crazy about the camera until I thought about that one aspect.
Except that it also records DVCPro50 with 4:2:2 in 16:9. I think a lot of people would pay $6k for that alone.

Antoine_Fabi

04-19-2005, 04:23 PM

no doubt !

ddh

04-19-2005, 04:35 PM

After checking out the article on the HDX, I was wondering what the lens size is? Maybe I missed it but didn't see it.

Shaw

04-19-2005, 04:40 PM

82mm has been confirmed I believe. Barry?

Monglane

04-19-2005, 04:49 PM

It has. Several times.

Wadro

04-19-2005, 06:13 PM

hi soeren,

i think jonahlee´s problem is about archieving the full 80 or 100mbit streams...
the only way would really be harddiscs until blueray will come up... or tapestreamers...

cheers

What is wrong with storing footage on a dual layer data DVD. In the original DVCPRO HD Codec?? 9 gigs?

Haakon

04-19-2005, 06:33 PM

What is wrong with storing footage on a dual layer data DVD. In the original DVCPRO HD Codec?? 9 gigs?
Well, there's no specification for that in the DVD Video format, so you wouldn't be able to watch it on any TV. You can certainly use a DVD+R DL to *store* footage, but then you're still limited to about 8.5 GB on a dual-layer disc. Seeing that DVCPRO HD uses about 1 GB per minute of footage shot, it's not a very viable storage medium if you have an hour-long production to archive. My guess is they're still trying to figure out the best way to handle it, and more solutions will present themselves when P2 becomes more widespread and the demand for such a need increases.

DeeJco1

04-19-2005, 09:29 PM

Did they show any demonstration footage in HD to show it off?

Simon Wyndham

04-20-2005, 12:40 AM

Regarding the working out of storage space, don't forget that like XDCAM the recording of files on P2 also encompasses a low res proxy file for proxy editing in the field AFAIK. Although much smaller than the full res file, they still take up space.

Barry_Green

04-20-2005, 01:27 AM

Did they show any demonstration footage in HD to show it off?
No footage will be available for a couple of months or so. This was a non-working prototype, the product is still in development. They'll get footage to us as soon as they can, just like they did when the DVX was introduced.

PKraft

04-20-2005, 01:40 AM

The first players are out that can play HD from a standard DVD (DVD-R etc.) when the video is encoded with WMV9 (aka VC-1) or DivX/XviD (both MPEG4 derivates) ... basis for this development is a chip from Sigma that can decode both even up to HD res!

See http://www.divx.com/hd/ for example! And KISS Technology (from scandinavia) is about to ship/release their HD player too... so where's the prob?! ;)

Soeren, prob is that Kiss said to have their player available by last year's end. And they promised to send me a review sample by early March. I am still waiting, despite some hefty email exchange.
That is the problem: promises don't materialize! We call this vaporware. In addition to that, nobody knows if these player can be firmware updated once the HD-DVD and the HD-BD standards will be confirmed (timeframe: Q3 or Q4, 2005).

SoerenM

04-20-2005, 04:34 AM

Soeren, prob is that Kiss said to have their player available by last year's end. And they promised to send me a review sample by early March. I am still waiting, despite some hefty email exchange.
That is the problem: promises don't materialize! We call this vaporware. In addition to that, nobody knows if these player can be firmware updated once the HD-DVD and the HD-BD standards will be confirmed (timeframe: Q3 or Q4, 2005).

I'd call this vaporware too - if it really doesn't materialize! Of course I already noticed their delays and I'm kind of upset by this too... however the Avel Linkplayer for example (listed at divx.com/hd under Standalone Players) is already available and _works_ ... though the big let down here is that it has no DVI/HDMI out! :-((
I'm still hoping for the HD-DVD standard to use MPEG4/DivX or at least allow for it too... I already have plenty of movies in HD - most of the are raw MPEG2 transport streams and some I compressed with DivX/XviD to save space and it works beautiful and absolutely flawless!
(that's why I want a HD standalone player now with DVI output so I don't have to use my workstation anymore .. connected from another room using 15m (!) DVI cable ;o)

Cheers

thisiswells

04-20-2005, 05:27 AM

The Avel Link Player doesn't have DVI or a kitchen sink--but it does playback WM9-encoded HD 720p and 1080i from DVD-R discs and only costs $249.00. It has the same type of progressive scan analog component outputs as the P2HD and HDV cameras have.

It's tough to beat for cheap delivery.

PKraft

04-20-2005, 07:08 AM

I'd call this vaporware too - if it really doesn't materialize! Of course I already noticed their delays and I'm kind of upset by this too... however the Avel Linkplayer for example (listed at divx.com/hd under Standalone Players) is already available and _works_ ... though the big let down here is that it has no DVI/HDMI out! :-((
I'm still hoping for the HD-DVD standard to use MPEG4/DivX or at least allow for it too... I already have plenty of movies in HD - most of the are raw MPEG2 transport streams and some I compressed with DivX/XviD to save space and it works beautiful and absolutely flawless!
(that's why I want a HD standalone player now with DVI output so I don't have to use my workstation anymore .. connected from another room using 15m (!) DVI cable ;o)

Cheers

HD-DVD like HD-BD both only use H.264 and VC-1 as codecs. No Divx or Xvid or whatever other variation of those geeks' toys. That is PC world and the film industry will do anything to prevent the player manufacturers from including technology into their players that can potentially be linked to the PC world. Know why? They fear nothing more then illegal copying. In HD, mind you!
Ya know, not everything that works technically makes its way to the consumers living room, when pressure groups have the means to prevent that. So you better not count on divx. Use H.264 or VC-1, maybe wmv-9, but nothing else.

Ah, and a DVI interface? I would not count on that either. HDMI, maybe.

David Jimerson

04-20-2005, 11:55 AM

The camera's quite a bit taller, and it's a *great* feature. Ergonimically, now when you hand-hold it, you don't have to hold it out and away from you while using the VF. Now you can lock your elbow in tight to your body, making it sort of a "monopod", and the viewfinder lines up directly with your eye. Once I saw that feature I was like "man, these guys are THINKING!"

Indeed! Jan has shorter arms, too, and it fit to her well. A guy with long broomsticks like mine should find it very comfortable.

slaw235

04-20-2005, 11:55 AM

I LOVE everything about this camera, however I know I might get some flack for this silly question, but say I was shooting for a show that is presented in 4:3, how would I go about doing that with this camera. Truthfully I cannot wait for the day when 4:3 is just a memory, but until then.....

Neil Rowe

04-20-2005, 11:57 AM

.. how would you do it with the cine alta.. or the varicam? .. its not like shooting 16:9 and showing in 4:3 is anything new.. youve got options:

1. pan+scan

2. crop to 4:3

3. letterbox

David Jimerson

04-20-2005, 11:59 AM

If you aren't showing it in 16:9, you're not within the HD spec. So, do as iamloser says.

David Jimerson

04-20-2005, 12:05 PM

Question: does it seem like the viewfinder no longer folds out against the body to lock for 1st assistant use? The one in the P2 video looks like it is beveled to the point where it would not.

e

Hmmm. Couldn't get a feel for that. I suppose, though, even if it didn't work in the mock-up, the exact production configuration isn't 100% set, so even if the mock-up couldn't, the final model will.

slaw235

04-20-2005, 01:04 PM

If you aren't showing it in 16:9, you're not within the HD spec. So, do as iamloser says.
I realize I could crop to 4:3, just wondering if this most excellent camera would have guides for 4:3 as others do. Also if I am shooting regular DV on tape, the old fashion way, it would still be 16:9 as the CCDs are 16:9, yes? Or am I idiot? My dream is that by the time this camera is in general use that all television will be HD/16:9. Hey I can dream can't I? I did it with the HVX-200 and it came true.

Simon Wyndham

04-20-2005, 01:30 PM

You dream about cameras?I think its time you took a break from the video world!

Barry_Green

04-20-2005, 01:49 PM

All 16:9 cameras offer a 4:3 recording mode as well, for standard-def (all HD is 16:9). You could choose to record in 4:3 if you wanted, in standard-def.

I think your dream is a little premature. Right now 95% of American households, and 100% of European households, have no HDTV sets at all. 16:9 is much more common, and becoming more common every day, but all over-the-air broadcasts in America are still done in 4:3 (excepting the few HDTV broadcasts, of course).

We're going to have a square-peg-round-hole situation for many years to come!

Ernest_Acosta

04-20-2005, 02:32 PM

Pending footage. I am STANDING IN LINE for this camera. As long as Panasonic deliver the goods with a really good high def image, then this is my gift to myself. I am more concerned with doing transfers to film, even though most of my work was distributed on DVDs. The majority filmmakers I deal with want to do high def shorts, then transfer to 35mm or at least stream from a WM9 codec. Considering the cost of the VariCam and the CineAlta, the VariAlta (hey how about the AltaVari?) will do just fine with me. HVX lives baby!!!!

Ernest_Acosta

04-20-2005, 02:33 PM

P.S. I will keep my DVX until I see the footage. If the camera delivers, there will be a DVX for sale sign on my front door. Peace!

avr

04-20-2005, 03:40 PM

I only can say, THANK YOU PANASONIC (and Dvxusers) :)

slaw235

04-20-2005, 04:01 PM

Thanks Barry, you rule by the way!

bilgami

04-20-2005, 06:58 PM

BiLGaMi Video Productions :thumbsup:

How good is the video quality if the hvx200 was to shoot on mq tapes is it still as good as the 100a or better.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

Barry_Green

04-20-2005, 07:08 PM

Nobody can answer that yet, until we see a working model with actual footage.

Rosestar

04-20-2005, 07:43 PM

The camera looks great! I started making films with a K-mart GAF Super 8 camera and a Radio Shack cassette recorder a long time ago and the HVX-200 is a dream come true...
Like many, I have a question about archiving. I was thinking of setting up a DLT tape archive system for my move to HD with this camera system. I don't know that much about DLT, but it seems to offer enough storage capacity to make economic sense. I mean, the images and sounds are just data right? It seems to me that the optical disk systems discussed are still a little short on storage capacity and it would, in my opion, take much more effort to archive the data in such small chunks. Can anyone offer some advice about DLT systems (or other large capacity data storage systems)?

Thanks

and I know I need to get out more and stop dreaming about cameras!

04-21-2005, 09:56 AM

Thanks BARRY and JARRED for this wonderful article giving me(who lives in the other side of the world) such a close view and info about this wonderful product.

bilgami

04-21-2005, 12:28 PM

BiLGaMi Video Productions :beer:

Does the 200 play both mini and large tapes.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

Haakon

04-21-2005, 01:42 PM

BiLGaMi Video Productions :beer:

Does the 200 play both mini and large tapes.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)
No, it's MiniDV-tape compatible only. (But P2 is what you want, my friend!) :)

Haakon

04-21-2005, 01:45 PM

All 16:9 cameras offer a 4:3 recording mode as well, for standard-def (all HD is 16:9). You could choose to record in 4:3 if you wanted, in standard-def.

Do we know how this is handled on the HVX yet? I remember being shocked when the XL2 came out that they basically took a huge 4:3 CCD, rendered 20% of it unusable (and in essence letterboxed it to acheive a "native" 16:9 chip) and then letterboxed it *again* to achieve the "4:3 mode" image, giving it worse 4:3 resolution than the DVX actually records. Any information as to how the HVX is going to handle 4:3/SD imaging?

bilgami

04-21-2005, 03:48 PM

BiLGaMi Video Productions :thumbsup:

I want the P2 cards but Im think Ill shoot on tape till the capacity on the card gets bigger.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

Barry_Green

04-21-2005, 05:53 PM

Any information as to how the HVX is going to handle 4:3/SD imaging?
No info yet.

xort

04-21-2005, 06:12 PM

There is some info regarding 4 channel audio but I only see the 2 XLR connectors similar to the DVX100. How do you input 4 discreet channels of audio into the camera?
Thanks

Haakon

04-21-2005, 06:56 PM

There is some info regarding 4 channel audio but I only see the 2 XLR connectors similar to the DVX100. How do you input 4 discreet channels of audio into the camera?
Thanks
See http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=25377

Rush

04-21-2005, 10:18 PM

Barry, do you know if Panasonic has any plans to get a Histogram display on this Hot-Rod of a camera, you know, like the pro digital cameras have? :huh:

Having a live constantly running Histogram is an excellent means of seeing where your exposure is, by noting the distribution of the pixel values, like IRE's, but more friendly. Boy that would be the best feature. It negates Zebras completely, and could be a mere 3/4" across by 3/8" tall in the bottom right hand side of the LCD (In the empty 16:9 area).:thumbsup:

Shaw

04-21-2005, 10:22 PM

Now that would absolutely rock. I'd love to have both actually. A histogram and zebras in combo would be sweet.

Luis Caffesse

04-21-2005, 10:35 PM

Can we throw in a waveform/vectorscope while we're at it?
:)

Seriously, a live histogram would be amazing, that would be something that would completely sell me on this camera (as if I wasn't sold already)....But, I doubt we'll see anything like that. I mean, does the Varicam have a live histogram?

(i can hear you guys responding already, "but the varicam doesn't do 1080/24P either Luis"

thisiswells

04-21-2005, 10:45 PM

Can we throw in a waveform/vectorscope while we're at it? I mean, does the Varicam have a live histogram?

No, but you might take look at the Astro hd-lcd monitor with scopes:
http://www.astro-systems.com/hdtv_selection.html

Barry_Green

04-21-2005, 11:08 PM

I've been lobbying heavily. My knuckles are sore with arthritis from the number of e-mails I've spam-bombed Panasonic, with suggestions of how this would be the greatest-thing-ever feature, or that would, etc. Noah was there when I gave one of my wackier pitches.

But yes, I asked 'em about the waveform monitor on the first day. I figure, with P2, you've basically got DV Rack already in the camera, all that's missing is the waveform... so why not tie it into the zebra button, as in -- zebra 1, push again for zebra 2, push again = waveform. But I gotta admit that it'd be a longshot. Maybe in the HVX800 a few years from now... :)

Philipp

04-22-2005, 02:42 PM

Luis Caffesse

04-22-2005, 05:11 PM

you might take look at the Astro hd-lcd monitor with scopes:
http://www.astro-systems.com/hdtv_selection.html

Thanks for the link wells, looks like a fantastic solution.
I'd love to have one of those on my cam.
probably has a pricetag that'll kill me though.

bgundu

04-22-2005, 09:38 PM

Remember when most people were really excited that the HVX200 was going to be less than $10000? We were assuming that the camera alone was going to cost that much and most were willing to shell out that amount. Now that the camera is selling for $6000, people are freaking out at the P2 costs.

Here's why I can't wait for this camera:

1. NO TAPE! I waste way too much time digitizing and worrying about dropouts and timecode mistakes. The JVC HDPro needs a dedicated deck or the camera has to be used as a deck (provided you don't use their Firestore solution)

2. The camera is always recording, even before you press record! Only with P2 of course.

3. The ability to see thumbnail previews on the LCD, and delete unwanted clips. I really hope you can delete portions of the clip too and not the whole clip. I suggested in another thread that the LCD just be touch sensitive too so you can scrub through the clip with your finger.

4. 1080 24P, 720 24P and 60P, 480P DVCPro.... Need I say more?

5. Uncompressed Audio.

http://homepage.mac.com/mikedcurtis/.Pictures/Photo%20Album%20Pictures/2005-04-18%2020.22.38%20-0700/Image-E0B58EDCB07F11D9.jpg

Simon Wyndham

04-23-2005, 01:00 AM

bgundu, good points. Although cache record is available on many high end tape based cameras these days as well.

Regarding timecode with P2 and indeed xdcam, it isn't as important anymore. Because it is just data and is held as files on the card or disc, broken timecode doesn't matter anymore. You will probably find that the timecode does break when you delete a clip on the card (although it could work differently so maybe not). But if it does break it won't matter because of the way the system works.

PKraft

04-23-2005, 01:40 AM

bgundu,

the pic in your last messages is a screendump from a Mac screen.
Which app was used for import? fcp?

bgundu

04-23-2005, 06:44 AM

bgundu,

the pic in your last messages is a screendump from a Mac screen.
Which app was used for import? fcp?

yup. FCP5. BTW, the image was taken by Mike Curtis of www.hdforindies.com. More photos from NAB here:

http://homepage.mac.com/mikedcurtis/PhotoAlbum41.html

Luis Caffesse

04-23-2005, 10:57 AM

I've been lobbying heavily. My knuckles are sore with arthritis from the number of e-mails I've spam-bombed Panasonic, with suggestions of how this would be the greatest-thing-ever feature, or that would, etc.

Barry, seeing as you're lobbying, I've got another for you that I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned -

Underscanned LCD and Viewfinder, with TV safe guides.

At that price, I would hope that my LCD and viewfinder are not cropping any of the image.

Neil Rowe

04-23-2005, 11:22 AM

.. i thought he said the LCD already does underscan.

..hard to say.. alot of info oming in right now.. hard to keep track of it all.

bgundu

04-23-2005, 11:33 AM

Yeah, I believe there is underscan on the lcd.

Neil Rowe

04-23-2005, 12:10 PM

.."believe" isnt enough bob.. give me the facts.

bob replys: "ok then, ill give you the facts.. fact is your a loser!"

...why yes.. yes i am .

bob : ".... ... yep"

...... yep

bob: " ok then.. im going to eat lunch now"

... me too

bob:" k .. talk to ya later"

... over and out.

lol.. its a slow day.. my mind is drifting. anyway, thanks for the confirmation :)

bgundu

04-23-2005, 12:16 PM

From Jarreds report:

Why didn’t anyone think of this before? Add to that full underscan (for viewing the entire frame edge to edge) and a Focus Assist function (for easy, precise, pixel-accurate focus even without an external high-def monitor, which is available during standby AND recording), and peaking and zebras available simultaneously, and you’ve got one incredible camera experience. And the 4:3 shape is perfect for displaying the thumbnail previews of all the clips when previewing P2 card content.

Neil Rowe

04-23-2005, 12:27 PM

cool, thanks again. ..but that reminds me that i didnt see any mention of a zoom feature on the LCD to allow for zoomed in manual focusing.. would be nice though.

David Jimerson

04-23-2005, 12:34 PM

There is that feature, Neil.

Neil Rowe

04-23-2005, 12:49 PM

...its a good day. thats nice to hear, i wouldnt have thought they would leave it out seeing a the competitors are touting it. its really hard to keep up with all the sporadic info coming in. but i dont see how i could like the new camera any more than i already do. :)

edit: weeeeeeelllllll... there is always the direct to off the shelf external HDD recording thing. that would be a MAJOR plus in my own, and many other books.

PKraft

04-23-2005, 01:20 PM

yup. FCP5. BTW, the image was taken by Mike Curtis of www.hdforindies.com.

Bgundu, thanx. And even more thanx for the links. Highly appreciated.

Luis Caffesse

04-23-2005, 02:19 PM

WOW, I guess I was so caught up in the other details that I missed the fact that the LCD was already underscan. Boy, Panasonic really takes my suggestions quickly! I just posted this morning about an underscan LCD, and I've already got it confirmed!
:)

Barry_Green

04-23-2005, 02:24 PM

cool, thanks again. ..but that reminds me that i didnt see any mention of a zoom feature on the LCD to allow for zoomed in manual focusing.. would be nice though.
That's what was referred to as "focus assist" -- it extracts the central portion of the frame and maps it to the LCD on a pixel-for-pixel accurate basis, so you can execute an extremely precise focus. And you can use it during recording as well as in pause mode, unlike the competition.

The diagram they showed demonstrated it as popping up a window within the LCD, so you can see the full frame but also the magnified central portion. No confusion is possible as to whether you're in the "focus assist" mode. On the Sony there's no indication given as to whether you're in the zoomed-in mode or not, which is why I believe they disabled the function during recording -- if you left it in zoomed-in mode, and found out later that your framing was entirely "off", you'd be pretty mad. Hopefully Sony will upgrade their system to provide some sort of feedback that you're in zoomed-in mode, so they could then remove the restriction about not being able to use it during recording.

Antoine_Fabi

04-24-2005, 06:18 PM

Barry,

surely this question has been ansewered, but when will this camcoder be available, and what is the diameter of the lense ?

thanks

bgundu

04-24-2005, 06:50 PM

82mm, Q4

Antoine_Fabi

04-24-2005, 09:49 PM

thanks !

WestEnd

04-26-2005, 09:59 PM

It was mentioned that panasonic engineers have played around using an Ipod for storage. This alone would indicate 6-pin Firewire, also the Ipod can handle the data rate if Ipod specs are correct. A 30gig Ipod sels for $349 which would be an ideal susbstitute for P2 cards assuming you can record directly to the Ipod. If this is the case I'm sold. I also see DVX's going dirt cheap on ebay soon.

Aaron Koolen

04-27-2005, 12:30 AM

Well I don't think (Hope!) DVX's will go that cheap - they're way cheaper than an HVX with P2 will be. Almost different price markets. Well, that's what I'll keep telling myself cause I think I'm going to get a DVX soon..:)

Aaron

Barry_Green

04-27-2005, 03:00 AM

Panasonic certainly sees them as different price markets. They intend to keep the DVX as a current model, selling side-by-side with the HVX.

As for an ipod handling the data rate -- don't ipods use 1.8" drives? I don't think there are any 1.8" drives that have a sustained write speed of 15 megabytes per second. Even the new Hitachi 30gb drive falls to 9mB/sec. I'm no expert on ipods, but I do know that the drive would have to have a continuous, sustained, minimum write speed of at least 15mB/sec, probably closer to 20 for safety's sake. And I'm fairly certain no 1.8" drive comes close to that. Although, with 60gb capacity, they'd have to be doing that with either a raid (unlikely) or 2.5" drives (more likely)... so perhaps it could keep up... are there any posted spec's on sustained transfer rates for ipods?

WestEnd

04-27-2005, 10:17 AM

fixitinpost

04-27-2005, 07:22 PM

Seek time doesn't have much if anything to do with data transfer rates. If I am correct, that is the amount of time it takes to move the heads to a specified location on the hard drive.

Luka_Brazzi

04-30-2005, 07:07 AM

I must say I don't see the P2 a problem. This camera is dedicated to semi and profesional users shooting guerilla films :) and films in general. Unless you are shooting a wedding or a biiig mastershot why do you need more than 4 minutes of material.. I regularly shoot on 35 mm and a standard tape mag is 122m what is 4 minutes and nobody finds it a problem. You need just two cards (8 min. is more than enough) and swich them while downloading from one of them to ANY disc. I have never been on a set where setting up a scene, without director telling actors what to do :), takes less than 10 minutes.

PKraft

05-01-2005, 12:52 AM

The 60gig model is indeed a 1.8" drive, 4200rpm, average seek time of 15ms. With 15ms AVERAGE speed, that would probably rule out the ipod for direct streaming. The soon to be 80gig ipod will also run under the same specs.

Would not dare to rely on an iPod or a 1.8" HD for that matter, anyhow. These small HDs are NOT meant for permanently streaming data. They grab some audio data (which goes into a data buffer) and the HD head goes back to rest until he's next called to grab the next data. Go figure the amount of data used with MP3 and/or AAC and compare that to the bandwidth necessary for DVCProHD. No way!
You may succeed with certain 2.5" HDs but certainly not with 1.8" ones.

JanBee

05-01-2005, 12:56 AM

@luka

It's not a problem that you can only shoot 4 minutes (or rather more if you can afford the larger cards), there's the problem of backup. If you shoot on 35mm you'll have your footage once and for all. What do you want to do with your P2 footage? Copy it to a harddisk? Leave there forever? You really trust mobile harddisks to be 100% safe for years?

I don't. Not at all. But I acknowledge that there are many users out there who disagree on that - very much to my surprise - and think harddisks never fail. Maybe it is really me who encountered, lets say, at least 5 harddisks in my lifetime who failed and killed everything on it. Well, there's a workpath and solution for that problem, sure (mirroring, manual copies..). It is just, I'll expect A LOT OF tears from MANY P2-users who have no clue of the actual reliability of data storage media today (and I do not talk about the reliability of P2 itself).

Barry_Green

05-01-2005, 01:01 AM

Y'know, we heard that same talk from photographers who didn't want to switch over to digital. "Where will my negatives be?" "How can I work without having prints?"

In the end it became a non-issue. Digital photography is here to stay, and people just adapted their workflows to work with the new technology.

Same with e-mail -- do you print out a hard copy of every e-mail you receive? And file 'em away in a great big filing cabinet? I know I don't.

Yes P2 data will need to be archived. And there are at least a half-dozen ways to do that now, and more coming. Videotape is just one way, and probably the worst way, because even though tape is digital and would represent a clone of the data, you'd lose all the cool P2 metadata. You'd be better off archiving your footage onto something like DLT or SAIT. P2 data is data. Use data methods to archive. Burn it onto a DVD-R. Burn it onto a blu-ray disc. Write it to data tape. Archive to hard disk if you want. Dump it to DVCPRO-HD tape if you want. Output to those new holographic blue laser drives they're talking about building. Just archive it in a way that you can search and find it again (via metadata) and that right there will be infinitely superior to having boxes and boxes and shelves and shelves of videotapes.

PKraft

05-01-2005, 01:49 AM

@luka

If you shoot on 35mm you'll have your footage once and for all.

Really? Why do think then that so many big movies from the 30s to the 80s of the last century are lost forever? Chemical film fades, all the more when we talk about colour film with time limited colour couplers. Thank god there is digital technology to scan the remains of some of those films, to restore the resulting data as good as it gets and to archive the outcome of this process on optical data media in digital formats. Want more info on that topic? Google for Lowry Digital and yes, have a look into Apple Computer's report on John D. Lowry. Highly reveiling.

Rosestar

05-01-2005, 01:34 PM

Luka_Brazzi

05-02-2005, 02:28 AM

@ JanBee

Sorry but do you find miniDV tapes reliable. Or Betacam.. Or ANYTHING for that matter. 35mm will last if stored in almost perfect conditions. But even though always at least 3 or 4 dupnegatives are made. I store things on DV and Betacam tapes designed for storage (thicker than regular tapes) and rewind them every now and then. Even so I have dropped frames sometimes after storing a tape for 4 years (what is nothing). Nothing is reliable. We must live with that. And like it was said. Archive, archive, archive. ON EVERYTHING :)

thisiswells

05-02-2005, 03:06 AM

Digigenic

05-02-2005, 04:21 AM

“Whether it’s pictures you take of your kids, or 35 mm motion picture film, it (film) is incredibly archival. It’s something you know you will always be able to come back to. I wonder about all the … digital TV programs and movies. Where do they all end up?”

--Lance Acord, Cinematographer

Yeah, I saw that from "The Difference", Kodak's latest propaganda piece.
It has some great cinematographers featured in there, but as one would expect, it's a little misleading with regard to embracing the direction of digital capture. I particularly couldn't help LMAO when I saw the expressions on John Bowring's face in his quote towards the end of the DVD, commenting on the death of videotape and how "film is living on". You could tell he was choking back the laughter of wanting to just spill the words, hard disk, solid state, blu-ray...video's becoming stronger! And film is alive but on digitally assisted life support! :grin:

Rosestar

05-02-2005, 07:19 PM

I think that the debate of film vs. digital is way off base. Yes, from a pure technical quality point of view, digital imaging has a way to go until it beats film. With that I mean as far as resolution, lattitude, color saturation, ect. However, digital is already at a level where what really matters can be counted and what really matters is artistry, period. Nancy Schriber winning the best cinematography award at Sundance with "November" a film shot with the DVX-100 is a case in point and could be considered a watershed moment. I believe that in very short order, there will be a stable of artist that are qualified to be inducted into the ASC and who have never shot film. We'll see if the ASC can be broad minded and forward thinking enough to induct these artists.

This is what is so exciting about the HVX. It raises the technical qualtiy level that is availble to a broader range of artist. Of course it is not perfect, but it is definitly a quantum leap in the right direction.

Zig_Zigman

05-02-2005, 09:12 PM

Having seen November, I would say that Greg Harrison's editing carried the piece. I think Nancy got a "representative" nod toward the coming strength of digital filmmakers.

videoman69

05-03-2005, 10:18 AM

Der, you forgot something in your predictable review.

However, one thing seems clear to us: with only a $49 difference in price, it becomes much more difficult to understand why someone would consider the Sony Z1 over the HVX200,

WHy? Gee, let me think. It will run you $20k to have enough P2 cards to store about an hour of footage. WHat if I need 6 hours? $120k

I beileve that is reason enough.

reservoir

05-03-2005, 10:23 AM

It's OFFICIAL!! Videoman69 is a Troll. This is his second post in like 2 minutes. Looks like the Troll police might need to intervene!!

~reservoir~

reservoir

05-03-2005, 10:24 AM

Whoops....Double Post deleted. Sorry!!

~reservoir~

Aaron Koolen

05-03-2005, 10:29 AM

Videoman69, it will only cost people that much if they're an idiot with too much money, and in that case, your point becomes moot. That is not the way P2 is designed to be used at present. Given the financial and technical limitations (We have 4GB cards max at present AFAIK) you can't store hours and hours of stuff on P2 without it costing you the earth. So, for the zillionth time, you offload to a hard drive or record to something like a Firestore. Simple.

If you need to record long form, AND you don't want to use an external device to either offload or to record to, AND you want to use DVCPro (In any of it's forms), AND you don't want to buy a bundle of P2 cards - then you don't buy the HVX200 - you buy something else.

Aaron

Isaac_Brody

05-03-2005, 11:19 AM

P2 isn't meant to be treated like tape. You record to your cards, offload to a laptop, and then reuse the cards again. Wash, rinse, and repeat. You'd be wasting your money by spending twenty thousand on cards.

Read through the threads. This has been debated to death. You're making points that have been made at least ten times, answered twenty, will be asked about one hundred more times until everyone pulls out their hair. Trust me, the answers are here if you take the patience to read up a little.

vanguy

05-03-2005, 05:30 PM

I just sent Panasonic a rant about P2 being bloody expensive, how am I going to back up without cheap tape, et cetera, et cetera. Not sure I'm totally convinced yet, but they got back to me in a few hours with a personal email (I'm impressed!), and sent the following link to their whitepaper, which answers a lot of questions.

Go to:

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=93120&catGroupId=14569&surfModel=AG-HVX200&surfCategory=Cinema%20Series%20Cameras&displayTab=R

And click on white paper.

And it looks like Panasonic is very shortly going to come out with an 8 GB P2 card.

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/

Jarred Land

05-03-2005, 06:04 PM

vanguy

05-03-2005, 08:03 PM

you do have tape.. SD of course, but you still have tape. And after spending 100 bucks per hour for HD tape anyways, after 15 hours you got yourself a P2 card that can theoretically hold endless data.
True, but what I don't have is an archive of my HD camera footage. And that's the sticking point; either I burn DVD-Rs (VERY time-consuming) or I purchase a LOT of high-capacity storage (still far more expensive than tape). And in either case, I have to add a transfer procedure to my production day, while I'm shooting, since the P2 is so small in HD mode (8 minutes in 1080).

It's like having one very high-quality (and expensive) 8-minute tape, which you have to record on, digitize, then record over again.

And, since the transfer for an 8 GB card takes anywhere from 4-8 minutes, there's no significant time difference between digitizing and transferring.

There's gotta be a better way. Without going out and dropping 60K on a Varicam. Or spending $25K on P2 cards. Or hiring a guy to burn DVD-R's round the clock.

The basic idea is good. The camera front end is awesome. But the archiving of media is impractical in real-world low-budget production.

Aaron Koolen

05-03-2005, 09:49 PM

Vanguy, yes it is inconvenient for sure. We'd all like 2 terrabyte P2 cards that we don't have to offload, but at the moment we don't have them that big.

That's the price you pay for DVCPro in a camera of this price bracket. I think it's simple. There are problems with the system, for instance (Especially in your case it seems) you may have to waste all the time you saved on capturing, later on just to archive. Maybe you can't offload as you need to keep shooting and you don't have anyone else to help you. The question I think people need to ask themselves, is "Do I want Panasonic's version of HiDef" (DVCPro codec, 1080p etc)? If you dont - then it would probably be better for you to get a different camera that doesn't have these shortcomings (HDV for example). I think we just have to live with the inconvenience if we want DVCPro - I will.

Aaron

vanguy

05-04-2005, 07:08 AM

You're right of course. Basically what I want is a VariCam for under 10K. Which is not gonna happen. Tradeoffs.

It's still an amazing camera, and possibly with the use of two 8 GB cards and a couple of Panasonic P2 Store drives on my belt (I shoot about 2 hours of footage a day), it might be practical on set. Now we're up to about $13K, and I still have to offload the drives onto my edit system every night. That's doable, I think.

But then, I'd need to put the whole show on my edit system in hi-res, which means I'd need something like 5 TB of high-speed storage for a feature. Add $13K.

Now, comes time for the archiving. Say I want to keep half my footage. I'd need to get a DLT drive ($4K+) and a bunch of DLT tape ($1000), and archive for over 20 continuous hours. What's my total so far? $31K? Plus 20 hours of archiving plus the time spent double-transferring the footage (to the P2 store and then to the 5 TB array), and it all looks pretty complex and expensive.

Alternatively, to save money on a DLT system and tape, I could back up to about 300 double-layer DVD-Rs. Which would take over 75 hours, even with an 8x burner.

Sounds like a rant, doesn't it? It's because I'd really like to use this camera; it looks like the giant-killer, if not for this issue. Am I missing something? Is there some cheap, efficient way to store all this data, especially during the offline process? That would at least save $13K on the array...

Simon Wyndham

05-04-2005, 07:35 AM

I'm confused. Very confused.

In all of the conversations everybody seems set on getting this new camera with the P2 cards. Around 10k. Add to that all the other bits and bobs and you are talking serious money. And yet these are the same people who bought DVX100's because shoulder mount cameras were out of their price range!

vanguy

05-05-2005, 02:11 AM

Okay, I've done some more math. Sorry, I think I might have overstated it a bit.

If you transfer to large LaCie drives (about 1/2 to 1/3 the price of a high-speed array), you spend about as much money as you would on DVCPRO-HD tape (about $5K for a typical low-budget feature). Then, I suppose, you could just stash the drives somewhere, and buy more for the next show. And no digitizing, although I still think transferring all that data amounts to the same thing.

But you've still gotta transfer your cards every 8 minutes on set. And it's still about ten times the media cost of HDV.

Unless someone out there has a cheap and easy way to archive without swapping DVD-Rs for days?

vanguy

05-05-2005, 03:02 AM

And, looking further, I found an interesting, only slightly impractical solution:

http://www.coolatoola.com/

A way of backing up data to regular DV (or Digital8) tapes, up to 17.5 GB on a 60 minute tape. Which would hold 17 minutes of HD 1080 video on a tape you can get for a few bucks. The downside? it takes an hour to an hour an a half.

Sorry for the flood. I'll keep quiet for awhile.

Vanguy out.