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naavt
05-16-2011, 03:13 AM
Can someone explain me how can you feed TC to a sound recorder from the FS100 HDMI embedded TC?

Thanks

tomer
05-16-2011, 07:22 AM
There is no way you can do it direct .
You will need some kind of converter to make it work , the converter could be your ext recorder which would get embedded Tc and will have option to get it out .
5 grand , what do you expect ?;-).

naavt
05-16-2011, 11:51 AM
There is no way you can do it direct (...) 5 grand , what do you expect ?;-).

The kind of options AF101 gives me in that department.... And for less than 5 grand!!!

tomer
05-16-2011, 12:41 PM
Who needs Tc if you have a better picture :-)

naavt
05-16-2011, 02:28 PM
Who needs Tc if you have a better picture :-)

You have a point and that's why I'm considering it against the AF101, but my main work is direct cinema style Documentary and TC is of much importance to me since I shoot double system. Imagine to scout for every sound you want to sync in post after a 10 hour day shooting!... After that you're going to be a great fan of TC, believe me...

mico
05-16-2011, 03:33 PM
Heres an option for you:

http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

zeke
05-16-2011, 03:35 PM
You have a point and that's why I'm considering it against the AF101, but my main work is direct cinema style Documentary and TC is of much importance to me since I shoot double system. Imagine to scout for every sound you want to sync in post after a 10 hour day shooting!... After that you're going to be a great fan of TC, believe me...

I believe because of the built in GPS in the FS100, you can set each camera against absolute time, no need to jam sync.

nyvz
05-16-2011, 07:19 PM
I believe because of the built in GPS in the FS100, you can set each camera against absolute time, no need to jam sync.

It does sound like a cool idea, but I'm not sure how that helps if sound recorders don't have the same functionality, and it is hard to imagine wireless GPS time syncing is consistently accurate to a fraction of a second, how does it account for latency depending on differing locations, not to mention it may not have satellite reception in a lot of locations.

tomer
05-17-2011, 12:42 AM
You have a point and that's why I'm considering it against the AF101, but my main work is direct cinema style Documentary and TC is of much importance to me since I shoot double system. Imagine to scout for every sound you want to sync in post after a 10 hour day shooting!... After that you're going to be a great fan of TC, believe me...

Believe me , since i came from film era ,i can imagine half dozen different ways to work out that small issue :-)
Since you work video , your life is much simple .
So here are few tips.
Using denecke mini Tc slate on your sound man bag and point and shoot .
Pluraleyes to sync on FCP by using audio sourcess , one from your cameraand from your ext audio recorder .
Hand clap from time to time and free run Tc on both devices with same amount of error , later sync it in seconds.
IF you work with avid which not work with plural in the editing , you can send Tc to camera audio track , wireless or just place denecke Tc sync box , later, in minutes to replace the Tc stamp on your files with ltc Tc from your audio track .
And the last one - who say you need double system - the Sony cameras as good as any average sound recorder, like sound devices for dialog recordings ;-)

zeke
05-17-2011, 06:36 AM
It does sound like a cool idea, but I'm not sure how that helps if sound recorders don't have the same functionality, and it is hard to imagine wireless GPS time syncing is consistently accurate to a fraction of a second, how does it account for latency depending on differing locations, not to mention it may not have satellite reception in a lot of locations.
If all the cameras get set to the same time, down to the milisecond, then don't start recording untill all are set. After setting, you can check their internal date/time clocks to verify. Then free run TC. At least all the cameras will be in sync, then using something like pluraleyes for double sound should be relatively easy. Will the sound recording system be able to send a mix to at least one camera?

naavt
05-17-2011, 07:30 AM
Heres an option for you:

http://www.singularsoftware.com/pluraleyes.html

Thanks mico but I've tested it as soon as it appeared in the market with not so good results. I even talked with singularsoftware developers and sent them some personal clips where I did get stuck to sync them using PluralEyes with no effect so I passed on it.


Believe me , since i came from film era ,i can imagine half dozen different ways to work out that small issue :-)
Since you work video , your life is much simple .
So here are few tips.
Using denecke mini Tc slate on your sound man bag and point and shoot .

I think I'm going to give iPhone Movie Slate a try on that one. It even generates TC and can Jam sync to my sound operator's recorder.


Pluraleyes to sync on FCP by using audio sourcess , one from your cameraand from your ext audio recorder .
Hand clap from time to time and free run Tc on both devices with same amount of error , later sync it in seconds.
IF you work with avid which not work with plural in the editing , you can send Tc to camera audio track , wireless or just place denecke Tc sync box , later, in minutes to replace the Tc stamp on your files with ltc Tc from your audio track .

FCP here. The glitch on TC sync without literally syncing (what everybody's suggesting), is drift. There's no way to have a camera and recorder both running with exact TC within their internal clocks so 2 or 3 minutes after start recording you are going to end up with drifted video and sound no matter what. If you are syncing a minute shot it's easy. If you are syncing a overtheshoulder run and gun shot where you follow your protagonist for over 5 minutes you have a problem...


And the last one - who say you need double system - the Sony cameras as good as any average sound recorder, like sound devices for dialog recordings ;-)

And sorry if I disagree on this one with you. Camera internal preamps will never match the sound of a good sound recorder no matter how good the camera is. At least any that I've tried!

speedjunkie
05-17-2011, 07:35 AM
The New Final Cut Pro x, does it for you. From their presentation at NAB...

tomer
05-17-2011, 09:21 AM
Thanks mico but I've tested it as soon as it appeared in the market with not so good results. I even talked with singularsoftware developers and sent them some personal clips where I did get stuck to sync them using PluralEyes with no effect so I passed on it.



I think I'm going to give iPhone Movie Slate a try on that one. It even generates TC and can Jam sync to my sound operator's recorder.



FCP here. The glitch on TC sync without literally syncing (what everybody's suggesting), is drift. There's no way to have a camera and recorder both running with exact TC within their internal clocks so 2 or 3 minutes after start recording you are going to end up with drifted video and sound no matter what. If you are syncing a minute shot it's easy. If you are syncing a overtheshoulder run and gun shot where you follow your protagonist for over 5 minutes you have a problem...



And sorry if I disagree on this one with you. Camera internal preamps will never match the sound of a good sound recorder no matter how good the camera is. At least any that I've tried!

If you need The pluraleyes will work for 99% of the time , send a scratch track to one of your camera audio tracks .
Don't use i phone slate without hard wired to the Tc sours , it drifts , continues Jam only .
You will not get more then a frame or 2 apart with most of the cameras in one hour record ime . - if you have these problems , sync- more often aka hand clap every power down or battery change .

If the fs 100 could be synced to gps clock , the drift will not exist in the camera but in your recorder which might drift for a frame in 6-8 hours- nothing - so the error will be contant .

i will suggest you to check how do you import the audio and your video to fcp - if the tc is not stamped correctly ( 29.97 , drop non drop , 30 etc ) or there is no tc at all ,you may get drift as actually you will have 2 different frame rates - thats the USA /NTSC PROBLEM , DOESN'T exist in Pal world , as everything imported in 25 - so check your file import before you accuse the fcp or camera .

My dear, i have recorded on camera films which where in Trybeca, Cannes and Berline festival s, and i do own a bit more audio eqip then regular person , incl Devas , 788s or what ever , SO IN REAL LIFE ,not on paper - you will never know what device the movie was recorded with .
by the way ,my first on video feature for theatrical relies was recorded with Sony BVW d-600 betacam with bvw 35 recorder attached to , so i will get 6 tracks - since then , the cameras became just better:-)

Rick Burnett
05-17-2011, 09:24 AM
It looks like the biggest problem I see with TC over HDMI is that I really cannot find a lot of support for it AT ALL. From most of the things I can see, it has been designed by Sony and is not a part of the HDMI standard. Convergent Designs has been in touch with Sony so maybe someone might want to talk to them and see if you can get TC off of the Nanoflash if used in conjunction with the FS100.

I think trying to validate what is right or wrong with how people work is really a matter of taste. I've worked in enough situations that I've recorded audio to camera, recorded to external recorder, used Pluraleyes, synced by hand, used clap, and used a whole system that was synced by TC. ALL of these methods when looked at from a pro/con viewpoint depend on A LOT of variables. I've also worked with systems that suffered from drift, and some that have not. All of these are valid solutions and/or valid problems. Time is money for a lot of people, and once you've had to deal with something that has taken a lot of time, you tend to want to use a system that is deterministic and reliable.

All that said, if anyone sees anything about TC over HDMI, please, make sure to bring it back here. I personally know a lot of people that would like to use it, but given how new this is, there isn't a lot of support out there (yet).

Barry_Green
05-17-2011, 10:07 AM
As far as I know, it is indeed a Sony invention, and the FS100 will be the first product to offer it, and therefore yeah, by default there's no support yet because there's no product that does it. There is no provision in the HDMI specification for it, so I wonder how they're doing it? Since HDMI is digital data, it could be as simple as embedding it in the first few bytes of image data off in the upper left corner or something like that, or maybe they blank one line of video and use it for a TC data line or something. But yeah, no real idea, no specs have been made public that I know of.

zeke
05-17-2011, 10:18 AM
As far as I know, it is indeed a Sony invention, and the FS100 will be the first product to offer it, and therefore yeah, by default there's no support yet because there's no product that does it. There is no provision in the HDMI specification for it, so I wonder how they're doing it? Since HDMI is digital data, it could be as simple as embedding it in the first few bytes of image data off in the upper left corner or something like that, or maybe they blank one line of video and use it for a TC data line or something. But yeah, no real idea, no specs have been made public that I know of.

Would an HDMI to SDI converter maintain the TC? Probably not, but just wondering.

tomer
05-17-2011, 10:19 AM
I guess tat SD with their pix 240 will be the first to implement as the recorder have a very open architecture as i have understood from SD replies .
Not to mention that recorder have proper Tc in/ out , and could be synced very easy , and since s it has Good audio stage , our friend would be able not sync at all :-)

Barry_Green
05-17-2011, 10:24 AM
Would an HDMI to SDI converter maintain the TC? Probably not, but just wondering.

I would suspect not, unless the converter was specifically designed for the Sony variant of HDMI.

zeke
05-17-2011, 10:31 AM
That's what I was afraid of. So...what's the best way to set the clock on an external recording device?
I'm looking at getting the MOTU Audio Express and it supports TC, both input and output. If you can't sync the camera's, maybe you
can sync the recording devices and have them override the incoming signal.

Just a thought.

aguia
05-17-2011, 10:38 AM
My question is not specifically related to the TC-out issue in the OP but if you are a doc producer and shoot a big ratio sometimes (like me) how does the FS100 implement metadata in AVCHD files?

Some of Sony's previous and relatively recent pro-sumer cameras were a little thin in that department (believe me, this is something I am living with every single day).

Back to the OP; the AVID read-audio-as-TC trick is pretty useful, this is something not too difficult for other NLE apps to try and copy and it could potentially help a lot of the HDSLR crowd too.

naavt
05-19-2011, 12:49 PM
i will suggest you to check how do you import the audio and your video to fcp - if the tc is not stamped correctly ( 29.97 , drop non drop , 30 etc ) or there is no tc at all ,you may get drift as actually you will have 2 different frame rates - thats the USA /NTSC PROBLEM , DOESN'T exist in Pal world , as everything imported in 25 - so check your file import before you accuse the fcp or camera .:-)

I'm in a PAL land here.


My dear, i have recorded on camera films which where in Trybeca, Cannes and Berline festival s, and i do own a bit more audio eqip then regular person , incl Devas , 788s or what ever , SO IN REAL LIFE ,not on paper - you will never know what device the movie was recorded with .
by the way ,my first on video feature for theatrical relies was recorded with Sony BVW d-600 betacam with bvw 35 recorder attached to , so i will get 6 tracks - since then , the cameras became just better:-)

I'm not doubting your experience in the matter and I certainly welcome all opinions here: For me is what forums are all about. To put different knowledge on the table and learn with others experiences. I only stated what my experience in the field says. Not only mine nut my sound director too, who's one of the most renown sound directors here.


I think trying to validate what is right or wrong with how people work is really a matter of taste. I've worked in enough situations that I've recorded audio to camera, recorded to external recorder, used Pluraleyes, synced by hand, used clap, and used a whole system that was synced by TC. ALL of these methods when looked at from a pro/con viewpoint depend on A LOT of variables.

Completely agree


All that said, if anyone sees anything about TC over HDMI, please, make sure to bring it back here. I personally know a lot of people that would like to use it...(yet).

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