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kprince
05-06-2011, 08:04 PM
How many of y'all are future Scarlet Fixed buyers?

*Me = + 1

*dependent on future FS100 awesomeness.

PS: also curious as to how many of y'all are getting the FS100 or Scarlet for strictly web-based content ; )

djbobbyrhodes
05-06-2011, 08:19 PM
If it ever exists, I might be on the list.

kprince
05-06-2011, 08:25 PM
So that's a 1/2 yes? ; ) I'm in agreement..

nyvz
05-06-2011, 08:58 PM
Probably not scarlet, but interested in EPIC-S.

Billy Barber
05-07-2011, 04:17 AM
Me too on Epic S. If it really comes in at 12K it is, positively, game over man.

Hidef1080
05-07-2011, 05:14 AM
When I first read about Scarlet a while back I would have said yes but now - no.
And not because of the FS100.

I'm not sure if I want another fixed lens anything at this point.

Jason Allen
05-07-2011, 07:32 AM
I'm not sure if I want another fixed lens anything at this point.

No Red Scarlet Fixed for me, summed up very succinctly by Hidef1080 - and also because of the availability of real, tangible, marketed/released large sensor cameras from established companies (AF100, FS100, SLR camera options + external audio, 4/3 EVF camera options + external audio, etc).

Lliam Worthington
05-07-2011, 07:41 AM
Ahhhh the scarlet...
why when I was a boy...
Man it's literally so long ago now that I first emailed Red about release dates it just seems ludicrous...
I last wrote them again a few months back, they told me "not to give up all hope" of seeing it by june when I informed them I would be commit to my next kit purchase.
But, I'll be stunned if it arrives before 2012. And with the obvious rethink taking place... Will it even be a Scarlet?

Fwiw, I certainly hope this camera arrives as you can't help but feel it's the most likely to probably truly democratise the low end of quality film making...

Unfortunate thing now is even if it ever actually arrives, my confidence is pretty shot, and I can't help fearing that an order would be so slow and backlogged that it could be largely a waste of time in any case...
I'd like to be wrong though.

imag
05-07-2011, 09:05 AM
The low end of quality film making has already been democratized. Canon beat RED, and so did Panasonic and now Sony.

Jay Birch
05-07-2011, 09:29 AM
I will see what is available when Scarlet actually is available and all accessories too.

2012 is likely, and the 5DIII, AF200 (?) and maybe a Canon s35 camera should be around by then.

greymog
05-07-2011, 09:30 AM
I'm sure it would be a great cam, but I'm months past giving RED a single penny. I think I'm done with em. Not because of the FS or anything, I just don't think they have a healthy attitude in the community. Anyone who's ever shot knows it ain't about the camera no more. Especially in this day and age. My thoughts only, no offense meant.

Carlos_Nieto
05-07-2011, 10:37 AM
I'll be the first one in line for the Scarlet Fixed if it's out before end of this year... But I really like the FS100, especially after Philip Bloom's AF100 vs F3 vs F100 comparision, so my decision to wait and go after the Scarlet "is subject to change" at any moment :-)))

nyvz
05-07-2011, 03:50 PM
Even if Epic-S comes in at $12k for the brain and probably closer to $20k minimum for a useable camera without a lens (remember LCD, media, power, all cost several thousand dollars), it will still be a really strong contender, though its ability to compete directly with the FS100 may depend on whether they end up implementing much higher compression ratios. The RED workflow in my experience with CS5 is about as seamless as any other codec, so the only setback for some may be the fact that EPIC-S at its highest compression ratio (18:1 from what I understand) will still generate ~10x as much data as an FS100, meaning 10x the storage requirement, 10x the media requirements, 10x the media/transfer speed requirements etc. That is a lot to ask for people who would be happy with images generated from compressed material at 1/10th the bitrate who just want longer recording times, fewer mag changes, and cheaper media. It may be a digital cinema camera with bitrates made to compete with raw workflows from phantom, arri and other cinema cameras, but it would be silly for them to not implement functionality that would make it useable for run and gun especially for those projects that are delivering to the web or even only 1080p...

That said, I am more digital cinema oriented than run and gun so EPIC-S seems like a strong option for me, but until then the FS100 looks like everything I wanted my 7D to be, and that worked surprisingly well for me. In the end, how much I like the FS100 will probably depend a lot on the flexibility and implementation of its picture profile system. When I used the FS100 a month ago it looked very promising, but without looking at it harder and doing some serious testing, it will be hard to know how limited it really is. Best case we can unlock some of that extra highlight latitude Sony saved for the F3+Slog, worst case the gamma curve I saw looked good and had smoother highlights than I was ever able to get out of an AF100 or 7D/5D (except for with my custom picture style). I'm thinking with how clean the FS100 is, a good picture profile setting that really shifts the midpoint to trade shadow latitude for some more highlight latitude may really make the camera shine for those of us less afraid of a little noise.

Rick Burnett
05-07-2011, 04:01 PM
Las year yes, I was all ready to go with a Scarlet Fixed and then add a Scarlet S35 brain so I could have both sensor sizes for appropriate shooting. However, with the removing of the Scarlet S35 and then creating the Epic-S, the price point is just not there for me anymore. With all the accessories needed to use even a basic setup for the Epic-S that I'd want, including EOS mount, Redmote, SSD drives and drives, batteries, side handle, and touch LCD, it's going to be a lot.

But, I also don't have any confidence it is coming out any time soon. Sony is already releasing their second camera in the S35 size (not counting the more consumer models), as this point, I'd even believe Canon getting to market with a new camera before the Scarlet fixed comes out! :)

My feelings right now are to go with the FS100/AF100 for now and continue to be productive and when the RED cameras do come out for real, evaluate where I am. Seeing the low light performance on the FS100, I'm REALLY happy with where Sony is going. I can't wait to see what comes after the F3/FS100.

nyvz
05-07-2011, 04:11 PM
I can't wait to see what comes after the F3/FS100.

Hah, let's just get our FS100's first :)

Rick Burnett
05-07-2011, 04:28 PM
Haha, I don't mean that I am actually waiting for it, I am very happy with the FS100 specs. this is just engineering curiosity. With the amazing sensitivity of both the F3 and the FS100 I wonder what other areas they are going to focus on.

natums
05-07-2011, 04:59 PM
I'm obsessed with the Epic, so if the scarlet ever does come out, I will need to get it, I might sell my car. lol.

kprince
05-08-2011, 12:46 AM
A very intelligent and logical body of responses I see.. **best Yoda accent**

John Caballero
05-08-2011, 01:10 AM
Scarlet? What the heck is a "Scarlet"?

Postmaster
05-08-2011, 01:54 AM
I was all Scarlet since they announced it 3k for 3k.
Than things went "subject to change", ya all know that line....

I still was looking at the fixed Scarlet, but then there came the FS100 - and there goes the Scarlet, sorry Jim.

I still want the Epic S - but Im at a point, where I think it may be much more clever to rent one, when a job calls for it, than spend 20k on a camera that may be obsolete 2 years later, since a lot of other camera came out that do the same for 25% of the price.

This is a very unusual move for me, since Im pretty anal when it comes to owning my own gear - I always hated renting. I love to have my own stuff here so I can use it whenever I want.
But renting is way cleverer tax wise, I can use equipment I could never afford, no repairs and always the newest stuff.

So I decided to sell my trusty HVX200 (as long as I still get money for it) and buy a FS100 for smaller jobs, my own little projects and personal joy, while renting RED, Alexa or F3 when needed.

Frank

Lliam Worthington
05-08-2011, 12:49 PM
The low end of quality film making has already been democratized. Canon beat RED, and so did Panasonic and now Sony.

I do not believe this to be entirely true yet. I acknowledge the wonderful tech your referring to and the important role it's playing in the "process" of democratisation - but that process has been going for a long time - and while the finish line is now excitingly in sight - we're still not there yet. Not if you want to talk in true terms of democracy
as the fact remains a lot of practicing Indi film makers can't actually afford an FS100 or the like.

Magnificently improved as things are, there are still cost vs technological barriers to entry for projects targeted theatrically that can generally only be overcome by exceptional levels of quality content. When the only genuine barrier is story/content then the democratisation will be complete.

Bassman2003
05-08-2011, 12:50 PM
I must say, I have been really watching Scarlet's progress (non-fixed) but as an ENG camera. This is going to need an adapter for broadcast lenses, but at least it is not an optical expansion to a larger chip size. I see Scarlet as a camera I would probably never need to upgrade from if they get it right. Plenty of resolution and RAW is worth the wait and a worthy upgrade from an EX-1/HPX ilk camera imho.

kprince
05-08-2011, 01:37 PM
right! Eng lenses are made for 2/3rd's sensors.. This would be highly functional/modular!

maranfilms
05-08-2011, 02:33 PM
Instead of the fixed lens, they should fix the sensor. 2/3rds, what a joke. It goes to show how long it's been since announced, back then the 2/3rds was actually considered big. Now the thought of that seems funny. Dont get me wrong, it will still be a cool camera for shooting adult films, or weddings. But for narrative work, why bother, the Canons, and pani seems the better choice for me. Im just glad Sony and Pani released a big sensor camera first. Hopefully it will humble them a bit. God knows they need it.

imag
05-08-2011, 06:43 PM
It sounds like you're thinking along the lines of the old quote about how film will not be a true democratic art until it is as cheap as paper and pen. And I agree. I do think a good filmmaker can do more with a HD phone camera than a crappy filmmaker can with an Arri. Phone cams are at this point pretty democratically distributed. But the super-cheap stuff will never look as good as the high end - because the bar will just keep moving. When a phone cam can shoot like an Alexa, Arri will have something out that is holographic, and so on.

And the context was the Scarlet, which is going to be at least in the same ballpark costwise as the cameras I mentioned. And any of the cameras I mentioned can put artful results on a big screen if they are used well, and that's what it is ultimately all about.

imag
05-08-2011, 06:52 PM
I would also like to point this out: audiences are not the gating factor for democratic film in terms of image quality. DPs and industry professionals are the issue there. We say that the content should matter, but then we rip apart anything that doesn't look flawless.

The reality is that most audiences are happy with youtube levels of quality. They don't sit in dark rooms; they don't care about 14 stops of latitude; they don't give a hoot about artifacting. Go look at how bad are the DIVXes that most people perfectly happily download.

There are a number of other factors that hold back indies - marketing, co-branding, and content being three big ones. I don't think the image quality is the biggest issue now. People watch movies on iPods, for god's sake...

Anyway, sorry about the digression.

Kraut69
05-08-2011, 07:20 PM
We all watch a lot of interesting documentaries on NETFLIX that are full of bad white balance, jerky camera work, poor exposure, grain, you name it , all things we would bash ourselves against the wall out of guilt if we produced images like that, but there on NETFLIX "professionals" are doing it and the everyday viewer couldn't care less. However, if you did those things for a wedding video for them, they would hang you. I can't wait to be a professional!

SPZ
05-08-2011, 10:26 PM
I think that the democratization comes when you as a DP and director can tell the story you want with the cinematography you would like to. A S35 sensor allows dof control and low light that a 1/3 or phone camera cannot. Small sensor camera shot films always go for a "Dogma" "verite" look for a reason.

MattDavis
05-09-2011, 12:54 AM
Was excited about Scarlet+/Epic-S in the corporate event niche. Now jumping to FS100 because:

1) Easy post on quick turnaround stuff without further investment in Red Rocket and the rest.

2) Recession moving into second dip, clients not yet willing to pay for extra quality in my little niche.

3) Red is concentrating, quite rightly, on high end where there's big bucks from a relatively small camp first.

4) Clients ARE now asking for a DSLR look - but DSLR revolution for me was a move in mentality from fixed glass to a wide choice of interchangeable lenses. Despite this, can't switch to 100% DSLR in my neck of the woods.

So, sorry Ted, sorry Red, sorry peer group, whilst I aspire to Epic S ownership, I'll re-examine the situation in a couple of years' time as I need to get on with producing what my clients will pay for, not what I desire.

Billy Barber
05-09-2011, 02:37 AM
A quick glance through Reduser and you'd quickly stumble upon the concept of 'futureproofing' your projects by using Red cameras. There's part of me that hates to admit it but they're right. Red is thinking long term though and I think the winning argument is it's both long and short term.

In the short term one could come off SDI into a Prores capture device the way everyone is talking about with the F3/FS 100 and put the RAW files up on the shelf. So why wouldn't the post process be just as easy? Then the cool part: we would all like to think that everything on the shot list or storyboard is shot just so, but the reality is the ability to reframe later is huge. Steadicam shots with the extra elbow room of 4/5K is also a huge bonus. So you could go back to the RAW files just for those situations (and a few others come to think of it).Add to that the possibility that down the road if one were to produce something that stood the test of time the project could be re-edited to fit the resolution flavor of the day. At the price point of an F3 at 12K an Epic S also has the advantage of a DSLR size and form, though a bit heavier. Then there's HDRx....

Damn, I'm talking myself into waiting again. I hate it when that happens.

Postmaster
05-09-2011, 07:08 AM
Depends on what you are shooting. Most of the stuff I do in the moment is commercials - they are obsolete in 6 months or a year at best.

So nobody wants to invest in future-proofing here.
If you shoot a feature, thats an other game.

Frank

Billy Barber
05-09-2011, 08:35 AM
Frank, you don't think the ability to reframe a shot and keep it in hi def would be an advantage for a commercial client? Considering the sometimes ridiculous amount of control they like to have over a project I would think it would be a big hit.

Postmaster
05-09-2011, 08:46 AM
Absolutely.
Dont get me wrong, I really-really want that Epic-s, but the customer pays me to frame right in the first place :laugh:

I dont think that I can tell them

" Ya now what? Pay 4000 extra bucks so we can reframe in post - just in case I screw it up or you change your mind later,"

With big agencies, yes, maybe - with my sort of clients - no way.

zeke
05-09-2011, 09:37 AM
Instead of the fixed lens, they should fix the sensor. 2/3rds, what a joke. It goes to show how long it's been since announced, back then the 2/3rds was actually considered big. Now the thought of that seems funny. Dont get me wrong, it will still be a cool camera for shooting adult films, or weddings. But for narrative work, why bother, the Canons, and pani seems the better choice for me. Im just glad Sony and Pani released a big sensor camera first. Hopefully it will humble them a bit. God knows they need it.

Not a joke at all. Lots of projects still shot on 16mm. And that fixed lens will cover most of what people use for narrative movie making. If it comes out before I retire (in 10 or 20 yerars, sarcasm intended), I will get one and have a lot of fun making shorts and features with it. I can see having both the FS100 and the Scarlet, and like Frank, renting the Epic. I also have my 60D, so I'm covered at several places in the food chain.

alexdias
05-09-2011, 10:25 AM
Hard to say! Just read trough the thread and there's a lot of speculation and some wishful thinking in here. I had some talks with people from RED at NAB and they recognize their shortcomings with schedules and self promoting. I did not talked to Jim nor Jared but most in there are quite realistic about their deliverables.
The Scarlet project went to several changes and the new Epic-S is the result of it. Epic is not a consumer camera, not even a high end consumer product, the way they see it is a lighter version for the Pro User and the price is according.
I was (like many) disappointed with so many empty promisses and change in directions. When products are available (with regular prices, no machined cameras) we'll know what to expect and I was quite surprise by the quality and concept of new accessories and the flexibility of the workflow. RED is maturing, somehow, and the results can be very interesting for all of us.

Ralph B
05-09-2011, 10:24 PM
While Scarlet and FS100 each have their strong selling points, for me, it all boils down to image quality. We've seen what the FS100 can do, and it's impressive, especially in low light. Can Scarlet match that? We won't know for sure until we see full-res Scarlet footage shot under similar conditions, but I kinda doubt it, given the size of Scarlet's 2/3 inch sensor.

Like most of you, I had high hopes for Scarlet, but now I see it slipping away, away, away...

Isaac_Brody
05-10-2011, 07:15 AM
How many of y'all are future Scarlet Fixed buyers?

Two years ago yes. Today, no. I like being able to use all my lenses and don't want to deal with 2/3. Yes, I am spoiled with being able to throw on my prime lenses. And I have no interest until they can deliver cameras on time. It's awesome that they keep improving things via firmware, but I really just want a camera that works everytime, does what it's supposed to, and doesn't give me any unknown surprises.

Things are changing so quickly that I don't really want to spend 10K on a camera system, not when the pace of change is so rapid. Renting makes more sense at the moment.

David W. Jones
05-10-2011, 02:33 PM
Scarlet?
I have purchased 4 new cameras since was announced!
Scarlet who?

kprince
05-11-2011, 12:39 AM
A quick glance through Reduser and you'd quickly stumble upon the concept of 'futureproofing' your projects by using Red cameras. There's part of me that hates to admit it but they're right. Red is thinking long term though and I think the winning argument is it's both long and short term.

In the short term one could come off SDI into a Prores capture device the way everyone is talking about with the F3/FS 100 and put the RAW files up on the shelf. So why wouldn't the post process be just as easy? Then the cool part: we would all like to think that everything on the shot list or storyboard is shot just so, but the reality is the ability to reframe later is huge. Steadicam shots with the extra elbow room of 4/5K is also a huge bonus. So you could go back to the RAW files just for those situations (and a few others come to think of it).Add to that the possibility that down the road if one were to produce something that stood the test of time the project could be re-edited to fit the resolution flavor of the day. At the price point of an F3 at 12K an Epic S also has the advantage of a DSLR size and form, though a bit heavier. Then there's HDRx....

Damn, I'm talking myself into waiting again. I hate it when that happens.

Hahaha!, best rationalization ever! I'm exactly the same.. I do like what Sony has done here though.. I just have way too many adapters.. arghhhh **brain explodes**

Jay Birch
05-11-2011, 04:26 AM
Probably wise to clear up something regarding the Epic-S pricing. There have only ever been hints from Jim, nothing was ever confirmed and, of course, everything is subject to change.

When people say that it is $12k, take that with an Epic pinch of salt.

Of course, whatever price is finally announced, it is not for a working camera anyway... so saying they are similar in price to the F3 is off the mark.

Rick Burnett
05-11-2011, 05:01 AM
$12k was for the brain only, and I agree, wasn't a finalized done deal price. They also said there would be some sort of "package" to get a shooting kit, which would probably include battery, grip, redmote and SSD slot. Also, there is the issue of lens mount. But again, none of that was finalized.

Razz16mm
05-11-2011, 05:34 AM
Still planning on a Scarlet. Ideally like to have one of each, fixed and cinema models. But will probably buy the cinema interchangeable model first unless it is delayed significantly beyond the release of the fixed version.
I have played around with R1 footage and raw work flow enough to know I will never be satisfied with shooting video again. Redcode RAW and CS5.5 for me.
2/3"/16mm sized format is still a personal favorite for all around general purpose motion work. I like compact, fast , wide range zooms. PL mount and 16mm cine lenses for me.

Billy Barber
05-11-2011, 07:52 AM
From Reduser-

EPIC-S (old Scarlet S35) update... – 01-01-2011, 12:02 PM

5. Price has risen due to the chassis and HDRx change/additions. Expect somewhere in the neighborhood of $12K. Package prices will be posted as soon as we are sure what they will be. We will not post another "interim" price structure in the meantime. Next price posting will be final.

While it's not a working camera one could argue getting up to speed with S-log would be comparable dollar wise. Not trying to be difficult but I believe that it will be close to this. Call me crazy.

zeke
05-11-2011, 10:57 AM
The info I got for a working Epic-S is close to 20K USD without lens. But a lot can happen between now and 2012. The Scarlet fixed is slated for around 6K USD. I think it will surprise a lot of people in a good way.
And like the FS100, putting the view finder on top has both pros and cons.

Jay Birch
05-11-2011, 12:11 PM
5. Price has risen due to the chassis and HDRx change/additions. Expect somewhere in the neighborhood of $12K. Package prices will be posted as soon as we are sure what they will be. We will not post another "interim" price structure in the meantime. Next price posting will be final.

While it's not a working camera one could argue getting up to speed with S-log would be comparable dollar wise. Not trying to be difficult but I believe that it will be close to this. Call me crazy.

Unfortunately.... even if they say "next price will be final".... they can just fall back on the "everything subject to change" mantra.

As for comparing it with an F3 with s-log.... I personally believe Epic-S is way over 1 year away (i'm not even sure Epic-X will make it this year)... ifs and buts, sure... but there is very little point comparing a camera that is available now (upgrade soon) to one without a price or delivery date. Hell, an F4 or AF500 could be out by then.

TimurCivan
05-11-2011, 12:54 PM
I can't stress enough, if you are agonizing over a purchase.... just rent.

Its a tax write off, and you always get waaaaaaay better stuff. U can spend 20k on a fully kitted F3, slog, recorder and then spens 25k on pl glass...... or spend 3,000$ for a week with the same gear. When you wanna do a quick and dirty shoot, use the 7D. Save yourselves money, so you can actually fund your film.

nyvz
05-11-2011, 01:25 PM
I can't stress enough, if you are agonizing over a purchase.... just rent.

Its a tax write off, and you always get waaaaaaay better stuff. U can spend 20k on a fully kitted F3, slog, recorder and then spens 25k on pl glass...... or spend 3,000$ for a week with the same gear. When you wanna do a quick and dirty shoot, use the 7D. Save yourselves money, so you can actually fund your film.

I agree that is a good option if you need to be using >$40k worth of gear and work for productions that have plenty of budget for those rentals. On the other hand, since this is the FS100 forum, it seems reasonable to apply my experience of the similarly priced EX1 I bought 3 years ago: It's value has dropped about $3k since I bought it (~$1k/year). I rarely get more than a $250/day rental rate for it, and it doesn't even go out on jobs much anymore. However, it was easily a great purchase, since I definitely got more than $3k (~12days) in rental rates from it in those 3 years (even though I never rented it out unless I was going along with it), not to mention all the work I got where the camera was built into my dayrate, and the flexibility to bring along the camera for lower-rate favors and passion projects and to be able to pull out the camera whenever I think of something I want to learn or test about it.

As for the tax writeoff, are you talking about if production isnt paying for the rentals and you are paying out of pocket for them to get reimbursed by production? Is that common? Or I gues you must be addressing producers rather than cinematographers/operators based on your last sentence about funding films. If you own your equipment, asset depreciation is also a write-off, no? And for <$500 AKS items you may be able to write-off the full value, right?

BTW anyone interested in a used EX1? :)

Rick Burnett
05-11-2011, 01:46 PM
I'm with nyvx on the price point principle! :) For me, the FS100 is just under the cusp of buying to own. Whereas for me, if I need something with higher performance, I'd rent for sure. Of course, that price point is different I am sure for a lot of people. There will be people where F3 is the inflection point, and Alexa is a rental!

TimurCivan
05-11-2011, 02:45 PM
Let say i get a job that has to be on RED. I say i "own" a RED, then subrent it from a friend. Tehy pay me, i pay my friend, boom. Tax write off. business expense. I get a RED for "free".