Working with 25 progressive in Avid Xpress 4.3

[travis]

Hi
I recently install Avid Xpress Pro 4.3 in my computer.
Without mojo.
It has the support for 25p projects which i think it is what i need to edit true progressive. But I found that i can´t import progressive footage in full resolution (just in 28:1 resolution)
Is that normal.
It is because i need the mojo?
I mean how can i edit true progressive footage from estart to end in Avid.
I am probably missing something
Do I need another program (do i have to do a pulldown...)

Anyone works in 25p with avid and can give me a direction...
The goal is keep everything progressive from start to end.
Thanks.

[travis]

To make it clear.
What i am doing: recording 25 pal progressive (scene 6) and tha output will be a cd (maybe a dvd but a cd for sure) so the audience will watch on a computer screen
Editing with Avid Xpress Pro 4.3
I was reading that editing in true progressive does not matter unless you go for a filmout or a progressive dvd.
So, Does it matter the progressive editing if you go for a cd rom that will be watch just on computers screen?

Please any advices.

[MichaelP]

Editing in true progressive 25p will maintain the "frame based" look throughout the project for all effects etc. In doing so, the "film" look associated with frame based motion interpolation at 1/25th rather than 1/50th will remain. Keepinmg everything progressive not only offer higher quality when doing a film-out, but will also ofer higher qiality for any progressive viewing medium; film, computer monitor, LCD panel, plasma, projection, etc.

Michael

[travis]

Thanks Michael
I was desperately waiting for you
I am still have a lot of issues. It seem i don´t get it right
My questions are:
How can i capture a 25p material with Xpress PRo 4.3
I know i have to choose the 25p project. Ok. Then when i start to capture i just have the chance to do it with a 18:1 compression.
Is there a way to do it uncompressed or al least the way i used to do it with no progressive footage.

[MichaelP]

a 25p project should allow you to capture in native DV25 and 28:1. If you want to work in native DV25 as shot, then select DV25 as the resolution. If you have a Mojo you can capture in 1:1 in a 25i project.

If you do not have DV25 and 28:1 as resolution choices, then you might need to reinstall the software.

MIchael

[travis]

So what does means the 28:1
Is it a important loose of quality
What would be the best way to edit in progresive and without the mojo

[travis]

The software installation is fine.
I mean the 28:1 appears. I am just afraid that is no a good resolution.
If i capture in 28:1, and then edit the sequence. Would it have a better resolutions (like doing a mixdown or redigitalizing the footage...?

What about using other programs... I have other softwares (prem pro and Vegas) But i would like to stay on Avid

Excuse my poor english

[Mythfit]

Hi Travis
I’m a noobie here, so this may be a case of the blind leading the blind, but can’t you capture some sample footage at the available settings and see if it has the look and feel you want?

[travis]

Yeah
I am doing in it and another problem came in. Any clip i captured says that there a decompstream warning or something like this.
But i keep trying
Anyway i don´t think woulf be a good way to capture with such a resolution unless it is posible to decompose (or redigitalize the footage back)

[MichaelP]

You should be able to capture native DV (DV25) or a more compressed version of 28:1. DV 25 resolution is the native resolution of the DVX100 so that will be the best possible resolution to capture over FireWire.

[Tom_Borg]

Hi!

I have the MOjo but anyway Avid technical support told me that if i want to edit something better than the infamous 28:1 i have to go to Avid Synphony or Avid Nitris (which are much more expensive editing systems!) with the project and the tapes to make that what they call (if my memory doesnt fail me) "total conform" which means to record the material again but with a better resolotuin.

I feel quite bitter :'( about this because Avid produt description doesnt specify this limitations and i dont wan to be depending on higher systems thaat i would need to rent!

The the only DV25 alternative, which is indeed the max a minidv tape can afford, is only available for en 25i project.

I have the mojo and it doesnt help att all with this 25p dilema. Does anyone know if Vegas or Final Cut does indeed work with 25p but in the best resolution posibble?

[MichaelP]

No, they are wrong. You absolutely can get DV25 resolution in a 25p project.

They are correct that you can only get 1:1 uncompressed in a 25i project.

But working at DV25 is the same as you would get with FCP (without adding a card to uncompressed SD) or Vegas Video.

Again, Xpress Pro has the following resolution when working in DV:

DV25 (same as source)
28:1 compressed furher 5x for more storage as an offline to a DV25 recapture.

You can always capture 25p material in a 25i project, it does not change the progressive nature of your sources.

Please email me privately the Avid rep from customer support and I will email them directly to correct them on this issue and make sure you have a proper install to get DV25 as a capture resolution while in a 25p project.

Michael

[travis]

So you mean that if i work in a 25i project with 25p material would it be better. I wont loose the progressive source...?
In other words: if i can´t rent or go to a avid simphony or nitris to finish my editing, a 25i project will be the best available way to edit my 25 p footage?

And at the end of the project if i use, let´s say canopus procoder or tmpeg for compressing the material to go to dvd or simple cd rom, Should I treat this material as progressive even if was edited in a 25i project?

Michael, my english is not well enough to thank you for your help.

Travis

[MichaelP]

Yes, you can edit in a 25i project with your 25p sources. All blend effects will not be affected by the interlace nature of the project type. The only time this will be an issue is for effects that have borders such as moving picture in picture, wedge wipes etc. This can be overcome by applying a soft edge to the effect.

Rolling titles will be interlace, but that shoild till be OK when encoded as progressive for DVD or othewise. The footage itself will always be progressive and the look and feel will not change because you are in a 25i project. The motion characteristics have already been captured as such during the original shoot. This is exactly the same look and feel of a film negative transferred to PAL and edited in a 25i project. It still looks like it was shot on film.

Michael

[travis]

Ok.
I am starting to understand it
But... What´s the point of having a 25p project if you can use the 25i project. And in 25i project you don´t have a loose of resolution.
So far, the 25p project seems unuseful at all.
Maybe has some advantages that i don´t get.

Anyway I´ll start editing with the 25i project.

Michael: Is it Avid working in a 25p project without the 28:1 resolution?

thanks

[Tom_Borg]

Thanks MichaelP giving us hope to reach the progressive heaven!

By "privatly email me" did you mean your email or to send you an instant message through the forum? I dont see your email anywere, neither on your personal page e-mail which says "hidden" in the email space, but maybe i am in a kind of overall confusedso i havent found your email.)

But anyway i can´t send you any response from the AVid technical support because we have exclusively talked by phone with them here in Sweden. The only guy there that has a better understanding on Avid Xpress Pro (the others says to be specialized in just in NITRIS like systems) has never edited on progressive footage!!! So for me its not surprise that they are wrong. I dont know what to do...because the only technical support i have right to is this useless swedish technichal support witch with this proves me to be more useless.

You are the only one that can help in this Michael. ::)

Following two topics i have so many questions about:

A)

When i open an 25i project there is in the resolution space the capture window these alternatives:
-25DV
-15:1
-uncrompressed (wich is pointless for us editing just in a minidv cam)


When i open an 25i project there is in the resolution space the capture window these alternatives:
-35:1 (but anavailable, that means in light grey and not selectable)

-28:1 (the only selectable!)

-14:1(but anavailable, that means in light grey and not selectable)

Is this ok? Or is there something wrong with my configuration or settings ?

MichaelP, you wrote that "If you do not have DV25 and 28:1 as resolution choices, then you might need to reinstall the software."

I have reinstalled the software but it hasnt given me any extra DV25 option in the resolution space in the capture window in a 25p project.

What else can i do?

Does one have to edit in a 25i project in DV25 and then by some unknown way turn it into a 25p?!!

In the media creation settings one can find in all the other resolution options (tittles, rendering, mixdown, etc, except Capture which is limited to 28:1 ) the tree options 35:1, 28:1, and 14:1 but again..... NO DV25 :-/

But in the 25i project there is available the DV25 resolution.

B)

If i capture DV25 resolution in a 25i project although it will rest with a kind of progressive look, but it is anyway not so good for a filmout (or progressive dvd intended for a projection or plasma) as an 25P project.
Progressive worked in 25i project is better than interlaced material worked in a 25i, but not as good as progressive in a 25p project. Or am i wrong?

c) a third topic althoug i promised just 2 ;)

If i work in a 25i project with progressive media can i then turn the 25i project in an 25p project?
It may sound akward but as i still doesnt find the dv25 when i am working in a 25 p project i am just thinking on some crazy solutions if i want as well someday be ready to turn my fottage into film.

Tom

[Tom_Borg]

Hi again..

Just a little adition:

In the Avid help file says:

In 23.976 projects, you can capture and play back at two resolutions:
- DV24p

- 28:1

But it doesnt say anything on the 25p projects.

[travis]

Hi Tom
As i understood (michael can correct me if i am wrong) you are not supposed to have a dv25 resolution for 25p. Just the 28:1 (if you doný have the famous mojo).
Now I am editing a 25i project with 25p footage. So far it does look progressive at the end of editing. Of course i can´t compared it with a fully 25p project.
So if you want to work with a good resolution you have to stick with the 25i no matter your footage is interlaced or progressive. If you want to finish in a dvd you should treat your material as progressive (when you encode the work)

Send regards to Bergman

[movieman]

Hi all,

Im new to this forum as I am just about to buy a DVX100ae (PAL). I already have Avid Express Pro 4.3.1.

I was under the impression that capture in XPRO for PAL was the same as NTSC for the capture option resolutions. But it is true that PAL only offers 28:1 resolution - for 25p. This is an excert from the AVID forum at www.avid.com on the subject.

"posted April 19, 2004 06:03 PM

It seems that there is confusion that 25p PAL is missing. In fact, 25P Pal is an option when starting a new project. So you can capture with 25p PAL (If you start new project, you can see 25p PAL as an option).
What was happening with the person who started the thread, was thinking that DV25p 411 was 25p PAL and not DV25 progressive (a type of resolution to capture on).

When you go to capture on 25p PAL, the resolution is 28:1. This has been the standard resolution to capture on PAL on Avid Xpress Pro. In some higher end systems, you can capture at different resolutions. However, with Pro, the choice is 28:1.

So, basically--yes, 25p PAL is available with Pro and the basic resolution to capture with is 28:1. Resolution is not the same as frame rate."

This was from Avid Technical Support.

The full link is here: http://www.avid.com/community/forums/Forum38/HTML/004805.html

So until Avid treat us Progressive PAL users like the progressive NTSC users, we have to do as suggested and use 25i project setting....

[Tom_Borg]

Thanks Travis
I shall send Bergman your regards Travis :)

Well i have the (in)famous MOJO and that doesnt help me at all with this matters (maybe, just my ignorance ).

Movieman: i also dont find any other posssiblity than the 28:1 reslution. It's just that our moderator has written:

"No, they are wrong. You absolutely can get DV25 resolution in a 25p project" I dont know you guys,but there isnt many ways to interpret such a sentence. But until then i shall also follow your steps Travis i take the 25i project.

**********************************
Ohhh i just wanted to confirm: that with thin and thick....iis this tru that thin is also known as advance and just good if one is definitly going to make a filmout?
Otherwise thick shoul have for saturated colours for a filmout and decreasing the saturation with som coloe effects my just decrease the quality?
Maybe im just talking nonsenses...but if anyone know better, please feel free to correct me.


tom

[movieman]

Hi Tom,

I was hoping that MichaelP was right, but everyone is pretty pissed over at www.avid.com forum for Xpress Pro as they are all having the same issue over 25p and 28:1 resolution - no other options available.

There was a bit of "hopeful" talk that Avid might make a fix for it though. Fingers crossed.

[Tom_Borg]

Oh....if you say so movieman, my "dv25 resolution in a 25p project" hopes are just vanishing. Bitter, bitter, bitter. :-/

I just hope that the new Avid xpress pro 4.5 that apeared at the NAB will solve the problem. And i also hope that we that have the precedent avdi xpres pro version could upgrade free.

MichaelP, you that are at the NAB, can you say to the avid stand that its shame on the "top" NLE company not to have DV25 resolution in a 25p project.

[spin27]

Hi my name is Pawel , i'm from Poland .

THE VERSION 1104.1.1 CAN CAPTURE 25P DV25p ( no 28:1)

In my country Pal system , I was buy PanasonicDVX100e
I have Avid 4.1.1
The last time I was upgreade it to 1104.1.1 thats strange number its from Norvegian Avid site. This version Support 25iand 25p , myne camera support 25p too but i have the big problem : Yesterday i was capturad material 25p(camera) in 25p mode(avid) after capture it , when i want to play from timeline the sound no sync help me please
i have no Mojo , i have only ADS PYRO card ,
when i back with clips to camera - digital cut every think is ok,
but not possible to editing on avid without sync

I'm sorry for myne english.

Best regards Pawel

[Tom_Borg]

Hej Pawel! can you give the internet adress where one can download the avid upgrade? 1104.1.1

I personally have the 4.3 which my hated swedish avdi support syas its the last upgrade. But ...WHo know maybe this 1104.1.1 will solve my problem.
I hope someone with more experience in 25p can help you with your problem.

Tom

[spin27]

http://www.mediaprofis.net/neuigkeiten-76.html

[Tom_Borg]

Thanks Pawel!

But the link to the norweigans site is broken. I tired to go direct and they just talked about the last version being the 4.3 which is the one i have..... :/
Any clue?
Any other link?

thanks

[spin27]

Sorry no idea . They must remove this link.
I have no another link.

[Ingve]

Hi, if you take this file and put it in your avid xpress pro folder, under supporting files / video resolutions, you'll get 25p capture in full resolution. You can upload it right here at my page. Hopefully it will work, and Avid wouldn't sue me...

Do this at your own risk, it don't think it will get you into trouble, but you'll never know... 8)

http://www.gilmanspoint.com/DvVideoRes_D25P.vr

[travis]

Thanks a lot Ingve
I had just download it.
I ´ll see if it works.
I hope so.

[spin27]

HELP

Myne problem is:

When i capture 25p - and play back from timeline -
-no synchro (like audio25 video24 fps)
Well all the time in camera record 25p - if i capture this
material like on avid 25i (synchro ok)

[MichaelP]

There is no resolution loss when working in 25p when you actually have the proper DV25 resolution installed. See:
http://support01.avid.com/support/ProdRef.nsf/AdminProbSolByProduct/9186 132DF5330C5C85256E8400599D1C?OpenDocument

The reason to use 25p is because all renders of any moving effect such as wipes, picture in picture etc. are all done at 1/25th instead of 1/50th and field based. This will preserve the progressive cadence of the source material. Working at DV25 resolution in a 25p project is the exact same quality as a 25i project with the added benefits of preserving progressive all the way through post. This is expecially true if there is an intention to do a film out at the end of the process.

28:1 is available as an offline resolution. It gives you 5 times more storage for the same amount of footage. FOr large film projects it is useful to maximize drive space then you can recapture at DV25 as you lock picture. DV25 and 28:1 can live in the same timeline and both play back in real time with no rendering.

Michael