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tom.wong
04-11-2011, 09:55 AM
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/video/channels-cinealta/video-prenab2011_pmwf3_35mm_camcorder_training/

long vid, you can skip past the intro stuff, and he dives into the firmware upgrades and what they will offer and for how much.

shooting s log on f3 changes the base rating for the camera to 1600 iso... time to invest in a lot more ND's and hot mirrors...

TimurCivan
04-11-2011, 10:10 AM
Yay!

So does the gain become deactivated I wonder? As bosting/reducing it eliminates your dynamic range....

Duke M.
04-11-2011, 11:50 AM
Man this thing is going to be able to see in the dark! LOL

I did note that s-log drops it from -64db to -57db.

Everts
04-11-2011, 11:55 AM
Man this thing is going to be able to see in the dark! LOL

it already does...soon it will know what you think :)

tom.wong
04-11-2011, 12:16 PM
with s log

1600 = the new 800
3200 would be the new 1600
6400 will look like the f3 right now at 3200


so if they open up the iso in relative to the fs100, and let you push up to +30 db, that's gonna start looking somewhere to what 6400 looks like RIGHT NOW on the f3.

holy (*@&(*&(%&(#&Q(^&#*(!

Everts
04-11-2011, 12:31 PM
list price 3300 for the update so streetprice will hopefully be around2500-2700 USD not bad .... or less :)

tom.wong
04-11-2011, 12:40 PM
interesting that the 3d options is a different firmware upgrade though.

BobbyMurcerFan
04-11-2011, 12:48 PM
Man this thing is going to be able to see in the dark! LOL

...

Did you catch that they rate the current F3 configuration at 800/f11 and with S-Log 1600/f16.

So doesn't that mean 3200/f11?

Crazy!

BobbyMurcerFan
04-11-2011, 12:51 PM
One issue is going to be how do you edit/finish S-Log in an NLE?

tom.wong
04-11-2011, 12:57 PM
several ways. you can de-log on set with your DIT, do a 1 light grade on it, and push that out through editorial, and online to the s-log in the finish for the full top to bottom grade.

you can apply the lut on the output and just record the it baked in with all the log information goodness if you need fast turn around and can't swing the DIT.

or sony offers up with the firmware upgrade, pre built LUT's you can apply on a general basis for monitoring and editorial.

gemini is also saying with their dual record mode, you can have a lut applied to one drive, while the log is on the other drive. saving you a conversion process on a the computer.

best example I can give of a standard de log workflow is,

macbook pro, with hd link pro, hooked up to a reference monitor and ki pro mini. signal comes from camera into hdlinkpro, you create your lut with the software, and implement it into the hdlink pro. while camera is doing recording log on the recorder on the camera, u you record with ki pro mini with lut applied, and deliver that straight to editorial.


LOTS of different workflows, some more complicated than others. all can be very effective. Just gotta be creative. Alexa, F35, etc. etc. work with these kind of workflows all the time.

BobbyMurcerFan
04-11-2011, 01:16 PM
But Tom, IIUC, this all speaks to using a proxy workflow in post. By comparison,with Red you can use .R3D's natively in Avid, Vegas and Premiere.

W/o S-Log, the F3 is easier to post than Red. But with S-Log, it seems that Red will be significantly easier.

Fohdeesha
04-11-2011, 01:29 PM
You don't need proxies whatsoever. You can drop the s-log footage into your editor like any other footage. (assuming you recorded it to a compatible format, e.g prores/dnxhd/uncompresed). S-log isn't a new type of file or codec for editors to handle, it's just storing luma information in existing file formats on a different logarithmic curve. Your prores files will still be prores files, your dnxhd files will still be dnxhd files, etc. Anyway, just drop it in your editor, it will just look a little washed out. Worst case ghetto scenario, you can do a grade right in your NLE using RGB curves, use your software's waveform monitor to set black and white points, then go for the look you want after that. Proper case scenario, do your edit with the actual material, then send an EDL off to Resolve or Color or Scratch or even AE, apply your LUT there, and get to grading. Even after effects has lut and log to lin support these days.

Joe Walker
04-11-2011, 01:31 PM
You don't need proxies whatsoever. You can drop the s-log footage into your editor like any other footage. (assuming you recorded it to a compatible format, e.g prores/dnxhd/uncompresed). S-log isn't a new type of file or codec for editors to handle, it's just storing luma information in existing file formats on a different logarithmic curve. Your prores files will still be prores files, your dnxhd files will still be dnxhd files, etc. Anyway, just drop it in your editor, it will just look a little washed out. Worst case ghetto scenario, you can do a grade right in your NLE using RGB curves, use your software's waveform monitor to set black and white points, then go for the look you want after that. Proper case scenario, do your edit with the actual material, then send an EDL off to Resolve or Color or Scratch or even AE, apply your LUT there, and get to grading. Even after effects has lut and log to lin support these days.

That sounds much better.

tom.wong
04-11-2011, 01:49 PM
You don't need proxies whatsoever. You can drop the s-log footage into your editor like any other footage. (assuming you recorded it to a compatible format, e.g prores/dnxhd/uncompresed). S-log isn't a new type of file or codec for editors to handle, it's just storing luma information in existing file formats on a different logarithmic curve. Your prores files will still be prores files, your dnxhd files will still be dnxhd files, etc. Anyway, just drop it in your editor, it will just look a little washed out. Worst case ghetto scenario, you can do a grade right in your NLE using RGB curves, use your software's waveform monitor to set black and white points, then go for the look you want after that. Proper case scenario, do your edit with the actual material, then send an EDL off to Resolve or Color or Scratch or even AE, apply your LUT there, and get to grading. Even after effects has lut and log to lin support these days.


the thing is, editing in log, a lot of producers have a hard time understanding why their footage is milky and washed out. for dailies and review, and multiple individuals at all positions viewing over the footage. constantly explaining to them, "it's gonna look good later" is not a way to work. especially with clients that don't understand all the technical points. Plus, it's important to have a LUT built on set so you know actually what your image is holding. color grading a whole feature inside your NLE to fix it as your editing is kind of counter productive to don't you think? it's just not a healthy workflow to do it like that. not to mention the endless render times.
A DP not knowing what his image is gonna look like, or reassurance that what's captured is what was intended defeats the purpose of having a digital workflow. but yes, s-log is just the curve put on the footage so that your monitor can see all the information the sensor is putting out, because RAW data is beyond what monitors can see. the whole point of the log is to push things done so you can see your image but retain in that info. you can record log as any codec as you need. a ki pro mini can record log at pro res 422 hq for example no issues.

as for more or less complicated than RED. it's just as simple, or even more simple, and can always be as complicated too as you make it. I've done many jobs where I'm with a mac tower on set, creating 1 lights in RCX, transcoding on set for editorial, and backing up the r3d's for the finish. how is that any less complicated than creating a LUT on set with a laptop and loading it in the camera. With a gemini you can have 1 hard drive record log, the other record with LUT. you have 1 drive that goes to editorial, the other that goes for finishing.

if the whole point is doing WYSIWYG, than don't shoot on log, go straight to 709, or use the pre built in LUT's sony offers and record that. you have MANY workflow options. but LOG workflow has always been like this. it's just a different way of taking your digital negative and developing it.

Fohdeesha
04-11-2011, 02:39 PM
the thing is, editing in log, a lot of producers have a hard time understanding why their footage is milky and washed out. for dailies and review, and multiple individuals at all positions viewing over the footage. constantly explaining to them, "it's gonna look good later" is not a way to work. especially with clients that don't understand all the technical points. Plus, it's important to have a LUT built on set so you know actually what your image is holding. color grading a whole feature inside your NLE to fix it as your editing is kind of counter productive to don't you think? it's just not a healthy workflow to do it like that. not to mention the endless render times.

This is why I named that method the "ghetto approach". As for render times, well, at least in premiere, their wouldn't be any. Levels/curves/etc in high bit depth/floating point are real-time if you have a CUDA enabled card. Anyway, the NLE method I described is best for indies who can't otherwise afford a different workflow. This market wouldn't have producers and several other people over their shoulder. The people that would, will have a budget for proper initial LUT burn-in for an NLE edit, EDL bounce to Scratch/Davinci/Color/whatever you want. I don't personally recommend grading a feature, or anything else for that matter, in an NLE, I was just commenting on the fact that the compatibility to do so is there. It's not out of anyone's reach these days to atleast do an EDL bounce to AE if you're on windows, or to Color if you're on a mac. These programs cost next to nothing if you can afford something that's shooting to log in the first place.

tom.wong
04-11-2011, 03:22 PM
This is why I named that method the "ghetto approach". As for render times, well, at least in premiere, their wouldn't be any. Levels/curves/etc in high bit depth/floating point are real-time if you have a CUDA enabled card. Anyway, the NLE method I described is best for indies who can't otherwise afford a different workflow. This market wouldn't have producers and several other people over their shoulder. The people that would, will have a budget for proper initial LUT burn-in for an NLE edit, EDL bounce to Scratch/Davinci/Color/whatever you want. I don't personally recommend grading a feature, or anything else for that matter, in an NLE, I was just commenting on the fact that the compatibility to do so is there. It's not out of anyone's reach these days to atleast do an EDL bounce to AE if you're on windows, or to Color if you're on a mac. These programs cost next to nothing if you can afford something that's shooting to log in the first place.

true dat. but I think the big thing now is that, nobody has ever been able to shoot log at this price point before. So people who have never touched a top end digital workflow before are finally getting a taste of it and not sure what to do. I think this is actually no better time to bring this to the masses so to speak, because literally affordable tools to keep the workflow as simple was it would be if you had a high budget are accessible now. Just the process of monitoring with LUT's, creating LUT's, on set transcoding, online offline workflow was a very expensive process that needed top priced tools to get the job down. Now the workflow is pretty much down patent, with plenty of options to spare, and a lot of relatively cheap effective tools to make it happen.

and not to anybody in particular, but log workflow isn't complicated at all, it's just different, and once you get the feel for it, it makes perfect sense. and for the quality you are getting it's REALLY worth it.

Postmaster
04-15-2011, 01:54 PM
Sony recently let us know about a software upgrade for the PMW-F3. This addition adds many features to the F3, including several key features for getting the most out of the camera. The firmware upgrade product code from Sony is CBK-RGB01 and, once purchased, the firmware can be installed at AbelCine, or by a tech savvy owner. It enables S-Log gamma mode, Dual Link 444RGB video output, 3G-SDI output, four pre-loaded LUTs (look up tables), and five custom user LUTs.

What does this all mean? This firmware allows the F3 to output full RGB video in S-Log – in other words, it opens up the true potential of this camera. S-Log ups the dynamic range of the camera to 800%, and effectively increases the ISO to 1600. Dual-Link SDI or 3G-SDI (dual-link on one cable) gives you full RGB444, and the LUTs allow you to monitor video normally while shooting in S-Log. Finally, the five custom LUT options mean that users can create their own looks in the same manner. The firmware will be available this summer for a list price of $3,300. Personally, I can’t wait to see the real potential of this impressive camera.

Straight from the horses mouth http://blog.abelcine.com/2011/03/02/sonys-new-firmware-upgrade-for-the-pmw-f3/

So itīs definitely just a firmware upgrade, no boards or any other hardware.
Everything you need for those goodies is already in your camera and the new firmware just gives you access.

Frank

macgregor
04-20-2011, 07:29 AM
true dat. but I think the big thing now is that, nobody has ever been able to shoot log at this price point before. So people who have never touched a top end digital workflow before are finally getting a taste of it and not sure what to do. I think this is actually no better time to bring this to the masses so to speak, because literally affordable tools to keep the workflow as simple was it would be if you had a high budget are accessible now. Just the process of monitoring with LUT's, creating LUT's, on set transcoding, online offline workflow was a very expensive process that needed top priced tools to get the job down. Now the workflow is pretty much down patent, with plenty of options to spare, and a lot of relatively cheap effective tools to make it happen.

and not to anybody in particular, but log workflow isn't complicated at all, it's just different, and once you get the feel for it, it makes perfect sense. and for the quality you are getting it's REALLY worth it.


Slog is not as unpleasant to watch as film log. Slog is just slightly flat but:
- i havenīt experiencing many clients complaining much about it when looking at F35 slog output
- just boost up the contrast in the NLE and tell them the image isnīt fully graded.

Nate Weaver
04-20-2011, 04:04 PM
Slog is not as unpleasant to watch as film log. Slog is just slightly flat but:
- i havenīt experiencing many clients complaining much about it when looking at F35 slog output
- just boost up the contrast in the NLE and tell them the image isnīt fully graded.

+1

There's another board with some guys that are just now learning this stuff and are kinda convinced this S-Log stuff is complicated. I keep trying to tell them it's not, but imm not sure if I'm getting through. It's not rocket science and there's no one correct way to deal with it, or expose it. I guess they'll figure it out soon enough.

tom.wong
04-20-2011, 04:11 PM
well that's an issue of what kind of clients you have and how accepting they are. I've had my fair share of clients that can't grasp the concept of color grading later on to really make the image look great, and having them pop in on set losing confidence in the production with the log look can be pretty stressful. And I only speak from experience. It's different for everybody, but Log workflow has many many routes. the whole thing with LUTs is there if you need or want it, it doesn't have to be if you don't.

I've even worked with DP's uncomfortable without lut's in place, they need to see it to believe it. but it's all simple stuff, the accessibility will educate.

Dan Keaton
04-21-2011, 12:45 PM
Dear Friends,

Our new Gemini 4:4:4 is specifically designed to work with Log footage, such as Sony's S-Log, Log-C and others.

For one, you can feed the Gemini 4:4:4 S-Log footage, in either HD-SDI Dual Link or via HD-SDI 3G.

On our built-in monitor, you can select to show native S-Log, or have a user uploadable, and/or user customizeable LUT (Look Up Table) applied. And we will be providing S-Log LUTs for your use.

The Gemini 4:4:4 has two HD-SDI outputs. Each one can be configured to output native S-Log or S-Log with a viewing LUT applied.

And we have a HDMI output so the same options should apply, I just have not confirmed that with our engineers yet.

The above options are very important. If you are shooting S-Log or Log-C or other log footage, you can have one monitor that allows you to check the native log footage and a second "Client" monitor. This immediately solves the problem with "Why does the footage look so bad" or even prevents the problem from occuring in the first place.

Then, the Gemini 4:4:4 can record native log footage to one SSD while burning in your standard or custom LUT to the second SSD.
(With some type of footage, such as 1080p60, we need both SSD's to record the uncompressed data, thus this is not possible with today's state-of-the-art SSD's.)

While this dual recording, one native and one with a burned-in LUT, is very nice, some may just decide to create two original masters (on two SSD's) of the original native log footage.

Thus, if anything happens to one SSD the other SSD with the native Log footage is still available.

Thus, it will be the user's choice of which mode to use.

The Gemini 4:4:4 was specifically designed to match the Sony F3 feature for feature and it will work with many other cameras.

TimurCivan
04-21-2011, 12:57 PM
Thats so cool dan.

Sorry I missed you at nab.

tom.wong
04-21-2011, 01:52 PM
really REALLY excited for the Gemini Dan. It's really gonna set the market of high end external recording upside down! bye bye codex and obi one's!

I was wondering if you could release any info on how you intended to implement Arriraw recording in the future? Is the optional future upgrade a hardware T.Link connection upgrade?

Dan Keaton
04-24-2011, 07:59 AM
Dear Tom,

It is nice to hear that you like our Gemini 4:4:4.

We are attempting to reach the proper people within Arri as a preliminary step for our ARRIRAW support project.

Please note that we have not promised ARRIRAW. But it is certainly something that we want to add to the Gemini 4:4:4.

It will be an extra cost feature. We are in the process of ordering an Arri Alexa for our lab for the project.

At this time, we expect our ARRIRAW support to be a firmware update, no extra hardware required.

Fohdeesha
04-24-2011, 08:30 AM
I was wondering if you could release any info on how you intended to implement Arriraw recording in the future? Is the optional future upgrade a hardware T.Link connection upgrade?


there's no t-link "connector", t-link is just a methodology of transporting arriraw over a dual link hd-sdi RGBA connection. The only thing that would be needed to allow a dual link recorder to record it would be firmware enabling it to recognize the transport stream format, as Dan said

tom.wong
04-24-2011, 09:01 PM
there's no t-link "connector", t-link is just a methodology of transporting arriraw over a dual link hd-sdi RGBA connection. The only thing that would be needed to allow a dual link recorder to record it would be firmware enabling it to recognize the transport stream format, as Dan said

good to know, haven't worked with arriraw yet, only pro res to sxs thus far. always thought t link was it's own connection. implementation shouldn't be too hard than if Arri is giving out their SDK readily.

LeavingTheCandy
04-25-2011, 05:33 AM
It's easy--edit in S-Log and send your signal through this to the client monitor. http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hdlink/workflow/