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moldcad
04-06-2011, 04:20 PM
I've been reading about the FS100, watching the first videos, considering all pros and cons - and even though I do know what mattebox is for and that screw-on filters exist - I still would like to articulate this once again:

- Dear Sony,

Before you start actual production of this little marvel, please redesign the front barrel of the camera (leaving the rear boxy body intact), and incorporate the proper ND filtering for us. If the filter wheel fits between the S35 imager and the lens mount flange on the F3, it will certainly fit into the FS100 as well - the space is just 2 mm shorter! All that is needed is some more place around this areas for the wheel mechanism itself, so making the front barrel bigger would certainty suffice.

If you do that, you will show that you are really listening to your customers, and will make us very happy. The FS100 is all about controllable DOF, but also about compactness and ability to go places no fully-blown rig would be allowed. It's all about changing fast prime lenses frequently, while keeping the aperture wide open.

While using alternative ways of ND filtering is certainly viable - no matter how we look at it, it partially denies all the above features and virtues. Also, controlling the light by increasing shutter speed is not practical, as the FS100 is a movie camera, and movies cannot be filmed with varying shutter speeds...

Please, give us internal ND filter! Please allow us to be creative without so much hassle!

With due respect,

Piotr Wozniacki

PS. Dear fellow users of this great forum, please add your comments to this thread so it grows and hopefully gets through to Sony. At the same time, if some of you are of opposite opinion - please refrain from teaching us how to use our mattebixes, cross-polarizing variable ND filters, etc; not in this thread - please :)

vanvideo
04-06-2011, 04:53 PM
Yes, it will create a much better product.

evilthought
04-06-2011, 05:42 PM
Too late. The camera is way into producttion stage for a redign like that.

"If the filter wheel fits between the S35 imager and the lens mount flange on the F3, it will certainly fit into the FS100 as well "

No, FS100 has an E-mount. F3 is PL mount.

Barry_Green
04-06-2011, 05:55 PM
Is it the mount depth that's the problem? I thought it was the tiny physical box dimensions of the FS100 itself that was the issue with not being able to mount a filter wheel in there. The AF100 and the FS100 have about the same depth and it wasn't a problem for the AF100 to fit a filter wheel, but with the FS100 the sensor is bigger yet the mouth of the body is narrower. So you'd need larger filters, and there really isn't anyplace for the wheel to rotate within the body. Surely that's the issue? And if so, there's no way they could just add a millimeter or two, they'd have to make a large front section that has room for the filters to slide into and out of position.

maranfilms
04-06-2011, 06:01 PM
Kudos on your letter to Sony, But like evilthought said, way to late for that, this would have needed to be addressed long ago. For all we know that space is used for electronics that can't be moved on a moments notice. Better yet , and at this point. The letter may be better if it reads like this.

"Dear sony,
seeing is you feel ND filters are not a crucial component to this amazing camera, It would be well recieved if you added a set of 4x4 ND filters to the Camera kit. By doing so, your consumers can use the s35 sensor for it's intended purpose. "SHALLOW DOF" Im sure you can incorporate this to the package easier than reconfiguring the front end. And by doing so, it will send the message, that Sony does want feeback and input from it's customers.
Respectfully, your eagerly waiting consumers.

pulpfiction007
04-06-2011, 06:13 PM
In spirit, I agree that for a camera as sensitive as this, and for it's intended purpose it should have ND's included - but I do think that we're too late in the game for Sony to re-design this model. However.... threads like this and others are important for letting manufacturers know what we the customers feel are valuable features.
For instance....Sony's high end consumer cams now feature 24P and manual controls. They can't include everything people want, but if it makes economic sense and a good percentage of customers are asking for a certain feature ...I believe these companies will listen. (It just takes a while sometimes)

JCummings
04-06-2011, 06:25 PM
You forget that the camera partially designed with the input of several "high profile" DSLR shooters. Nuff said.

maranfilms
04-06-2011, 06:32 PM
You forget that the camera partially designed with the input of several "high profile" DSLR shooters. Nuff said.
+1

Lee Saxon
04-06-2011, 06:33 PM
Totally disagree. Don't give Sony an excuse to double the price.

pulpfiction007
04-06-2011, 06:35 PM
You forget that the camera partially designed with the input of several "high profile" DSLR shooters. Nuff said.

True....but these shooters asked for ND filters. Sony's answer was that they couldn't do it and keep the camera small.

echo9
04-06-2011, 07:33 PM
If it came down to small form factor versus ND filters, I would take small form factor every time. I've got an adjustable screw on ND filter that works perfectly and takes about 5 seconds to get on or off.

vanvideo
04-06-2011, 07:42 PM
You forget that the camera partially designed with the input of several "high profile" DSLR shooters. Nuff said.

Den Lennie was one of those consulted for the design of the FS100. He has a background in TV news, so he knows the importance of ND filters. From what he says, he recommended Sony include it in the camera.
I guess we can debate on the merit of excluding ND filters, but Sony does know a thing or two about building video cameras.

That said - I do want ND filters!

jonatha
04-06-2011, 07:54 PM
Sony please include 24p and 60p in pal version camera,otherwise please include a cinema mod for that purpose ,and one more thing is switchable to 50mhz and 60mhz.......make it FS-100 an Universal camera............thanks

Steve Castle
04-06-2011, 09:56 PM
An ND filter quite simply won't fit in the form factor of the NEX-FS100. Putting an ND filter wheel in a large sensor S35 camera is a very different situation then say a 1/3" sensored camera.

For comparison, below is a ND filter wheel of the AF100, as the S35 sensor filter wheel would need to be a little larger, as you can tell the NEX-FS100 would require a lot more vertical space above the sensor; its not about focal flange distance (which the E-mount has a 18mms compared to the 20mms of the μFT)

http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo13/steve_castle/ndfilter.jpg

There is no space to put this within the NEX-FS100
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo13/steve_castle/NEX-FS100_1_S1.jpg

While I'm not sure if the NEX FS100 can pull gain setting below the F3s minimum to achieve lower ISOs, more generally it means you'll need to use ND filters that dSLR users are familiar with. Otherwise the AF100 serves as a viable option if ND filters are a big deal in your purchasing decision.

Doctor Wu
04-06-2011, 11:26 PM
Right, it's not the flange focal distance. It's the size of the neck that limits inclusion of a filter wheel. Confirmed by a Sony Rep that this is the reason.

You'll have to pile on the NDs - the only solution in daylight. ND9, ND1.2 and combos thereof. Oh well.

David G. Smith
04-06-2011, 11:50 PM
Sony please include 24p and 60p in pal version camera,otherwise please include a cinema mod for that purpose ,and one more thing is switchable to 50mhz and 60mhz.......make it FS-100 an Universal camera............thanks

While this does not affect me personally, at this time, I do think that not making the camera "Universal" was a serious oversight.

MadMonkFish
04-07-2011, 02:52 AM
Sony please include 24p and 60p in pal version camera,otherwise please include a cinema mod for that purpose ,and one more thing is switchable to 50mhz and 60mhz.......make it FS-100 an Universal camera............thanks

While this does not affect me personally, at this time, I do think that not making the camera "Universal" was a serious oversight.

Yes - no 24P in the UK/Europe/PAL version is madness. S35 sensor at this price is a massive draw to many, but a region specific camera without 24P will cause many to think twice (myself included).

moldcad
04-07-2011, 04:07 AM
There is no space to put this within the NEX-FS100
http://i357.photobucket.com/albums/oo13/steve_castle/NEX-FS100_1_S1.jpg



As I said in my OP of this thread, it's enough to redesign just the front barrel of the camera. Even if it takes 3 months longer waiting, I'd wait happily...

PS Oh, and one more thing: my main profession is mechanical CAD/CAM/CAE, and I can assure everyone here that - once the right decision is taken - with modern inter-disciplinary workflow, redesigning and manufacturing new tools (like injection molds, etc) could be done in a much shorter time than 3 months. And the stake for Sony is great - without such a basic feature on the FS100, Sony will be losing sales not to their own F3, but to the Panasonic's AF100. Especially if it turns out that what BBC is saying about the actual pixel count on the S35 chip is true...

maranfilms
04-07-2011, 05:31 AM
I believe you at what your saying. The one thing I dont agree with, as I have worked for large corporations in the past. It takes forever to get decisions made. Especially if there's a board to go in front of. Then to implement those decisions can take even longer.

moldcad
04-07-2011, 05:42 AM
Excellent point - that's why it would be great to make the effort required for conveying the message to Sony decision-makers ASAP. The message being that they're going to shoot their foot!

Jay Birch
04-07-2011, 06:40 AM
during the facebook chat... i told the sony guys that without 24/25/30/50/60p selectable, I will not be buying... and I am dead serious. It is just ridiculous to have ntsc/pal camera in this day and age.

Centro
04-07-2011, 07:05 AM
Yep, they should make it pal/NTSC switchable.
For the rest I think it's good the way it is and I hope they release it sooner than later and If the price indeed drops below 5k.

Steve Castle
04-07-2011, 07:44 AM
As I said in my OP of this thread, it's enough to redesign just the front barrel of the camera. Even if it takes 3 months longer waiting, I'd wait happily...

PS Oh, and one more thing: my main profession is mechanical CAD/CAM/CAE, and I can assure everyone here that - once the right decision is taken - with modern inter-disciplinary workflow, redesigning and manufacturing new tools (like injection molds, etc) could be done in a much shorter time than 3 months. And the stake for Sony is great - without such a basic feature on the FS100, Sony will be losing sales not to their own F3, but to the Panasonic's AF100. Especially if it turns out that what BBC is saying about the actual pixel count on the S35 chip is true...

It ain't happening...and for a good reason.

The fact that the camera is testing right now means it'll be a significantly longer wait then 3 months, and it would require more than just the front barrel to be redesigned unless you want just the front part to be jutting up. It would look like the AF100 or F3.

Building a camera isn't about building a single device, its building tens of thousands, its about managing supply chains, testing, its about brining it to the retailer, and then to the consumer. And its not just a single piece of plastic we are talking about here. A camera body is mostly a metal alloy chassis (usually magnesium) below it. Production is already likely ramping up being the imminent release and the fact that its already in the hands of many folks. Major physical changes aren't going to happen.

Also this camera is obviously designed around the dSLR lenses, and unlike the F3 with a PL mount, Sony is targeting people that will mount Nikons F mounts, Canons EF mounts, and E/A mounts to this camera. And there are plenty of options for ND filters on those lenses, and users that are used to dealing without an internalized ND filter wheel in their cameras.

Can't live without an internal ND filter wheel? Buy an F3. Can't afford it? Buy an AF100 (its out now and a great camera). Every camera doesn't need to overlap each other in every single little feature set. Nor is every camera designed to meet the every wants and whims of every user. Fortunately for you, there are a lot of good options right now for large sensored cameras.

OR. As someone has suggested before, someone could merely make an adapter with a ND filter wheel built in. The fact that the E-mount has an insanely short FFD of just 18mms, means there is ample room to incorporate a filter wheel adapter to SLR lenses. Furthermore the wheel is entirely mechanical. That would be the simplest route.

Also: the BBC is talking out of their ass about pixel count of the F3. He's basing it on the SNR of a 5 micron 3cmos sensor in relative terms of 0db. The first flaw is that SNR doesn't correlate where you can use it to measure sensors pixel pitch, secondly, 0db is ISO800 on the F3 different from a 3cmos camera, thirdly, there is greater flaw comparing a bayer to a 3CMOS in terms and using it to determine pixel density (and easier route would be to look at the damn brochure).

starcentral
04-07-2011, 08:58 AM
Dear Sony,

If the ND filters are too much trouble we totally understand, if you could make the camera 4k instead that would alternatively be accepted.

hahaha


during the facebook chat... i told the sony guys that without 24/25/30/50/60p selectable, I will not be buying... and I am dead serious. It is just ridiculous to have ntsc/pal camera in this day and age.

Can you explain why you need both? I would just buy in the country you predominantly shoot in, and nowadays it is a breeze to drop one format onto a timeline of another format and only need to adjust the audio speed by +-4%

PAL/NTSC use to be a bigger issue in the land of SD because the resolutions were actually different but that's old news now........ .

Jay Birch
04-07-2011, 11:06 AM
Can you explain why you need both? I would just buy in the country you predominantly shoot in, and nowadays it is a breeze to drop one format onto a timeline of another format and only need to adjust the audio speed by +-4%

PAL/NTSC use to be a bigger issue in the land of SD because the resolutions were actually different but that's old news now........ .

I shoot alot of music videos in both regions.... light flicker is a problem (if using 180 degree shutter). Bands wont allow their audio to be slowed/speedened. I work roughly 60%/40% in 25p/24p, no way will i buy this camera if they dont fix the issue.

Brian_Rice
04-07-2011, 12:31 PM
I think an internal wheel on this camera is just yet another thing that people want to add on to something that's sitting in a specific niche price range. If you want to use something that is a DSLR video camera, this is that camera. That is literally who it was designed for. If you're looking for something else you probably need to look elsewhere. This, IMO, is for the people shooting on consumer cams with adapters or DSLRs. Someone with a prosumer cam + adapter probably wouldn't benefit much from this cam. They'd probably be happier with something more expensive, or the AF100.

Spec-wise, this is absolutely by a landslide my favorite affordable cam to come out yet and I have full plans to purchase one. We'll see what happens when it's actually released.

djangosan
04-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Also, controlling the light by increasing shutter speed is not practical, as the FS100 is a movie camera, and movies cannot be filmed with varying shutter speeds...

Please, give us internal ND filter! Please allow us to be creative without so much hassle!


Or if it's simply too difficult to add a physical ND wheel, how about firmware that lets us switch the IRIS wheel to control GAIN, and then adding negative GAIN settings to our options? -3db would knock the ASA down to 400, -6db down to 200, etc. I'm sure there are sensor limitations that would be involved at some point, because a clipped highlight at the sensor would stay just that. But I think a 4-stop or even a 3-stop negative gain control would let me follow someone from inside a building to outside, or from inside a car to out with some degree of a reasonable exposure BEFORE I even have 30 seconds free to throw on an ND filter.

Dumb idea?

Fohdeesha
04-07-2011, 01:14 PM
The problem with that is negative gain, and any gain for that matter, decreases dynamic range.

G.P.
04-07-2011, 02:24 PM
I'll most likely get chewed out right now but... really? redesign a whole camera after half a year or development for something most people already own in their camera bag? I'm sorry but if you can't buy an ND filter for your $5,000 camera, then you might wanna rethink why you're spending 5k in the first place... Are they needed to shoot, yes, do you need it to be built into the camera? No, and furthermore, the physical size of the camera couldn't fit any kind of filter wheels at all, let alone much else. It was made to be SMALL thats the whole point.

I just think its rather silly... I come from the days when there was film, you wanted ND, you had to put it on the front, I think its just being spoiled to think every camera should have it built in. If anything it makes it more like a real cinema camera, theres no built in ND you need it, you have to slap it on front. Just because it doesn't have it, doesnt mean its a bad thing. It could end up teaching you how to expose by changing your ND's other than just using the same 2 settings you always having in camera.

alaskacameradude
04-07-2011, 02:37 PM
Well, I'm a vidoegrapher NOT a still photographer and I certainly do not have
ND filters in my bag. I don't see what is wrong with letting Sony know
that you would like ND filters. I don't think it should sink to a hugely
low level of whining or anything, but letting them know what features you would
like on a future version is how they introduce upgrades......like the EX1R for
example. Saying that people should 'just not buy it' or they
'should already have ND filters' might be valid if people are actually saying
the entire camera should be scrapped. I'm not saying that, I'm saying in the
future, you might want to put ND filters in a camera of this type. But if you
don't, that's ok, I just won't spend my money with you, that's all.
Complaining > Bad. Simple feedback/requests > Good. This is my opinion only
of course.

Rick Burnett
04-07-2011, 02:44 PM
While I think they should have included ND filters and that they should have worked harder to make it work, it wouldn't keep me from buying one. I used ND with my 7D and it wasn't horrible. Sure, NO WHERE near as nice as dialing in on the AF100. But then again, the F3 only has 2 ND settings (other than clear) whereas the AF100 has 3.

My hope is that someone like Birger will eventually design a mount to add ND. Given I heard they are building an electronic mount for EOS->Emount, that is just awesome.

I also agree that they are probably too far in their manufacturing to change anything now for this model. It will most likely be the next model if they consider it.

echo9
04-07-2011, 02:53 PM
The thing I don't get is people saying that the sole reason they wouldn't buy this camera (or any camera, doesn't necessarily have to be the FS100) is because it lacks internal ND filters. Really? I could understand if it was something major like the resolution isn't good enough, or you just hate the codec, or the dynamic range wasn't up to par, or there are major moire and aliasing issues, etc. I can even understand the lack of HD-SDI being a game stopper. But for something that's easily fixed with a $50 adjustable ND filter? (or a mattebox with drop in filters if you really want to get crazy). I said it earlier, but if it came between small size and internal ND filters, I'd choose small size every time.

To each their own, I guess.

Jeff Nitzberg
04-07-2011, 03:23 PM
Here it is for those who want one...

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5023/5599163388_7dbcca9b2f_b.jpg

This is obviously fake... but there is no reason why sony or a third party company couldn't manufacture one. There is enough clearance in the EOS to nex mount to add a rotating rear filter. Hell... it would even be possible for a company to make a mount adapter that simply had a slot that allowed for some kind of drop in style filters... this has even been done on some wide lenses (built into the lens itself). Anyhow, not putting ND on the FS was clearly a deliberate decision on Sony's behalf.

So don't petition Sony, petition cokin or tiffen or redrock or ciecio7 to make an adapter like this... and then make it for m4/3rds cameras as well... GH1/2 owners eat your heart out.

alaskacameradude
04-07-2011, 04:17 PM
The thing I don't get is people saying that the sole reason they wouldn't buy this camera (or any camera, doesn't necessarily have to be the FS100) is because it lacks internal ND filters. Really? I could understand if it was something major like the resolution isn't good enough, or you just hate the codec, or the dynamic range wasn't up to par, or there are major moire and aliasing issues, etc. I can even understand the lack of HD-SDI being a game stopper. But for something that's easily fixed with a $50 adjustable ND filter? (or a mattebox with drop in filters if you really want to get crazy). I said it earlier, but if it came between small size and internal ND filters, I'd choose small size every time.

To each their own, I guess.

Well if the codec isn't good enough, you can always
add a Nanoflash or Ki Pro mini or Ninja or whatever and
even if it doesn't have HD-SDI, it has HDMI 'with timecode'....
so why should those be a problem either? The ND filter thing,
is an issue, because trying to put in a mattebox and buy slide in
filters isn't for everyone. Then you have the fact that with many
lenses, the lens extends which won't work with the mattebox.
As for adjustable ND 'fader' filters, Barry and others have said
they pretty much suck. Size on the other hand, doesn't bother me
and others.....I am used to working with big crazy shoulder
mount cameras, so any of these type of camcorders seems small
to me.

With this camera, as with many things in life, the things that
are important to some people are not as important to others.
That doesn't mean anything other than there are a LOT of people
from different backgrounds (stills, traditional video, film, and
combinations of all) that are looking at this camera. One man's
trash is another's treasure and all that. No biggie, it doesn't
have ND filters. There is a certain segment of people that
want them, others that don't. Sony will either include them
with a future revision, or not. I've stated my preference, and
they can listen or not, while I would like to buy a F3, I can't
afford it yet. But the camera won't make or break me, I can continue
to get by with old gear for awhile yet.

dop16mm
04-07-2011, 06:51 PM
Af100 day, FS100 night, Nikon mounts so they play nice together, still less than an f3. If you can only have one pick your compromise. If you're poor and go dslr, you'll have to have ND filters so moving up should be a non issue. The solution to tromboning zooms is a drop-in filter holder that screws to the front of the lens. the cokin system has gotten big enough for most still lenses. A similar solution for 4x4 filters with a nice sun shade on the front would be cool. what is good about this design is you only need to get the adapter for your various lenses and it slides on and off easily.

jonatha
04-07-2011, 07:27 PM
Yes - no 24P in the UK/Europe/PAL version is madness. S35 sensor at this price is a massive draw to many, but a region specific camera without 24P will cause many to think twice (myself included).
Ya that true we all people are Indie film makers,we cant afford real film stock,and even Sony F3 also,what we do just shoot in HD and transfer to film,so we need 24p please help...............other wise we have to do in Canon 5d m2 with Nikon ai lenses from Ebay,that is only way now ..........what to do?Sony help us.............we r happy

jonatha
04-07-2011, 07:39 PM
during the facebook chat... i told the sony guys that without 24/25/30/50/60p selectable, I will not be buying... and I am dead serious. It is just ridiculous to have ntsc/pal camera in this day and age.
Ya,that is true,u see Panasonic have a vision, they make AF100 is a Universal camcorder with Cine mode,that is great effort ............if Sony listening us that is great............................last time Canon don't bother about 24p in 5DM2 then whole world make noise about 24p then only they decide 24p in 5DM2..................now all Indie makers using 5DM2..................thanks

David G. Smith
04-07-2011, 11:06 PM
transfer to film - why ?
in 2 years from now there will be no theaters which show film and i guess you will not make it before ,
the stupid thing is that people still think 24 or 25 , the projector doesn't care :-)

That is a little premature, and I for one certainly hope there are still theaters showing film in 2 years, and in 20 years and beyond. Digital cinema still has a long way to go to beat the beauty of well photographed film. However, back to the the thread. Good luck on getting Sony to listen to you for the release of the FS100. I wish that it did have in internal ND system, but that is not a deal breaker for me. What is going to be the deal breaker, for me, is the image quality we see coming out of the production models. What I think we are going to see is the FS100 hit the street at about $5K, and in about a year, move to a street price of $4500.00, then Sony will announce a new camera, at about $7K to $8K MSRP, that has more of the bells and whistles we are clamoring for now, but still is not up to the full functionality of the F3.

jonatha
04-07-2011, 11:12 PM
transfer to film - why ?
in 2 years from now there will be no theaters which show film and i guess you will not make it before ,
the stupid thing is that people still think 24 or 25 , the projector doesn't care :-)
In some places in Asia if u want satellite royalty right u should sale your film negative right,then only they consider Motion picture,otherwise your film is only Video film,the price is very low,for projection doesn't matter there have Digitel projection,onother one thing about 24p and 25p,24p motion is very filimic look,25p is more video look,
http://www.macvideo.tv/camera-technology/interviews/index.cfm?articleId=3213230
http://prolost.com/blog/2011/4/4/movies-at-high-frame-rates.html
if you want Motion picture entry u should do in film ,otherwise your film is video film,..........thanks,...................there have lot of talk about 24p and 25p,anyway film is film video is video.....still I love film........thanks

jonatha
04-07-2011, 11:18 PM
That is a little premature, and I for one certainly hope there are still theaters showing film in 2 years, and in 20 years and beyond. Digital cinema still has a long way to go to beat the beauty of well photographed film. However, back to the the thread. Good luck on getting Sony to listen to you for the release of the FS100. I wish that it did have in internal ND system, but that is not a deal breaker for me. What is going to be the deal breaker, for me, is the image quality we see coming out of the production models. What I think we are going to see is the FS100 hit the street at about $5K, and in about a year, move to a street price of $4500.00, then Sony will announce a new camera, at about $7K to $8K MSRP, that has more of the bells and whistles we are clamoring for now, but still is not up to the full functionality of the F3.+1..........well said

maarek
04-08-2011, 12:43 AM
jonatha: That is somewhat retarded thinking. We've been working here in PAL land with 25p for ages. 25p films have also been shown digitally and have been converted to 24 with success. I see no problem in not having 24 here in the PAL land. I've NEVER used 24 with my 7d and never will if I work in the PAL world. Now I'd love to have 60 though because I can make slowmotions slower!

This camera actually looks to be a great upgrade path from my 7d. I don't like the AF100 because of the 2x crop. My lenses! But the FS100 will take them all!

jonatha
04-08-2011, 01:45 AM
sorry I am working with motion picture industry,we r shooting with film stock,in 24fps,for slow motion we r doing 60fps, 120fps,and some times 22fps for faster movements with Arri film cameras,So I am looking for replace Arri cam ,if we can get the same frame rate like Arri,we no need to convert to 24p,In AF 100 Panasonic exactly make for a Film like camera,but me also not happy for that crop factor, If I am doing tv based work I am happy with 25p PAL cam,that is my thought,........In film world there is no NTSC and PAL,in BOLLYWOOD and HOLLYWOOD 24 frame per second,that why we are asking for Cinema Mode in FS100.........Thanks

Danielvilliers
04-08-2011, 03:10 AM
For me I see the ND as third place in what has been omitted in this camera. The number one would be 10 bit output (hdsdi or hdmi), second will be frame rate (24/25p) and then The ND filter. The reason is simple, because there are work around for the built in ND filter. You can use a Matte box or the Fader ND type of lens attachment. They might not be as practical but at least they exist. While when you have a high quality sensor like the one in the F3 and you can only get 8 bit output, while cameras like the $ 4000 NX5U has 10 bit HDSDI is a crime.

For me this camera is not meant primarily at eng and run and gun shooting. Since the first mock-up you could see that the form factor was meant more for the indie filmmakers (mainly those comming or who have gone to the HDSLR). You know what I mean when I say a filmmaker!!! I am not saying the guy who wake-up in the morning and tells himself that he is going to shoot a film today. But the people that have a scrip, casting, searched for location, lighting and planning. I thought that it would be the realisation of the elusive scarlet... just a box with the best image quality for an affordable price (indie market), even better as it has a super 35 sensor. Since I have learned that it had the F3 sensor I was just hopping that it would be it. I thought that the feature set (444, slog, genlock, 3d, hdsdi, more professional form factor etc.) would have been in the eyes of Sony, as enough of a differentiating factor between the two camera. Unfortunately it was not enough as they have cripple it by implementing only 8 bit output. I don't know to what extent it will affect the image quality.

I don't know if people realise it, but this nearly 13 stop (about the same range as a RED MX) low light monster sensor with a 10 bit would have the tipping point for the indie world. Imagine the first time film quality capture for the indie/micro budget filmmaker (at the market price that most have invested in). It would have been a revolution, after 24p in video camera it would have been the last step to that ideal of affordable film quality capture. I would have died for that. This is why I see all the other omission as a bit secondary.

The ntsc/pal version is also a bit annoying and should not exist anymore. For the 10 bit and to a lesser extend 24/25p, unfortunately we don't have workarounds. Perhaps if the camera can be hack latter these could be done.

jonatha
04-08-2011, 03:37 AM
For me I see the ND as third place in what has been omitted in this camera. The number one would be 10 bit output (hdsdi or hdmi), second will be frame rate (24/25p) and then The ND filter. The reason is simple, because there are work around for the built in ND filter. You can use a Matte box or the Fader ND type of lens attachment. They might not be as practical but at least they exist. While when you have a high quality sensor like the one in the F3 and you can only get 8 bit output, while cameras like the $ 4000 NX5U has 10 bit HDSDI is a crime.

For me this camera is not meant primarily at eng and run and gun shooting. Since the first mock-up you could see that the form factor was meant more for the indie filmmakers (mainly those comming or who have gone to the HDSLR). You know what I mean when I say a filmmaker!!! I am not saying the guy who wake-up in the morning and tells himself that he is going to shoot a film today. But the people that have a scrip, casting, searched for location, lighting and planning. I thought that it would be the realisation of the elusive scarlet... just a box with the best image quality for an affordable price (indie market), even better as it has a super 35 sensor. Since I have learned that it had the F3 sensor I was just hopping that it would be it. I thought that the feature set (444, slog, genlock, 3d, hdsdi, more professional form factor etc.) would have been in the eyes of Sony, as enough of a differentiating factor between the two camera. Unfortunately it was not enough as they have cripple it by implementing only 8 bit output. I don't know to what extent it will affect the image quality.

I don't know if people realise it, but this nearly 13 stop (about the same range as a RED MX) low light monster sensor with a 10 bit would have the tipping point for the indie world. Imagine the first time film quality capture for the indie/micro budget filmmaker (at the market price that most have invested in). It would have been a revolution, after 24p in video camera it would have been the last step to that ideal of affordable film quality capture. I would have died for that. This is why I see all the other omission as a bit secondary.

The ntsc/pal version is also a bit annoying and should not exist anymore. For the 10 bit and to a lesser extend 24/25p, unfortunately we don't have workarounds. Perhaps if the camera can be hack latter these could be done.
I 100% agree with you.....................thanks for this words

tom.wong
04-08-2011, 05:59 AM
there can be no hack if there are no 10 bit boards in there to begin with. if there were, this camera would be closer to the price of an f3.

maarek
04-08-2011, 06:15 AM
sorry I am working with motion picture industry,we r shooting with film stock,in 24fps,for slow motion we r doing 60fps, 120fps,and some times 22fps for faster movements with Arri film cameras,

Yes, I've seen your posts all over the net about the FS100 in all kindsoff different forums.

Filmmakers use RED or Alexa. If they don't have the budget for those they use DSLR's at the moment. The first DSLR film to hit Finnish theater just came out and it was shot with the 5d.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUYaYk0mGcE

Are you seriously making films or not? I've seen all your posts and none of them confirm that you are indeed making films ON FILM. You were asking a lot of DSLR info just awhile ago.

25p is very easily converted to 24. We slow it down. We've always done it that way before. The same way as ALL 24fps films are sped up to 25 to conform to PAL. Yes it would be great to have 24p.

But FOR ME it definitely is not a dealbreaker as I have never used it here in PAL land for several years and I have done a lot of things. For you it is important, yes I get it. But it's also unbelievable that I can see the same damn complaints from you on several different forums over and over and over again. I get it! This camera is not for you. Move on.



So I am looking for replace Arri cam Go for a RED or Alexa. Those are the only sensible solutions if doing film work.

The FS100 seems to be an excellent upgrade path for DSLR users at the moment. Unless Canon comes out with an EF-mount version.

Besides I don't get the huge complainings going on. The AF100 is very good with some minor nibbles. The FS100 seems to be very good too with some other minor nibbles. If you want more then we have the REDs and Alexas and maybe even the F3. Or the DSLR world that is still a very cheap way to go but with more quibbles.

kurth
04-08-2011, 06:16 AM
sorry I havenīt had time to read the entire thread but as a solution to the ND problem , besides a singh-ray, which seems a simple enough solution, another idea is that sony make an alpha mount smart adapter with NDīs inside. It wouldnīt have to be small so it could include a fliter wheel, and it would give access to alot more lenses- a request for sony to change the design of the camera at this point is absurd , and Iīm sure the design team is already working on more cameras using the f3 sensor- the more cameras with the sensor, the more sensors, meaning mass production costs down- so the letter should be meant for future camera designs -the fs-100 cake is already baked - I myself would prefer an integrated lens camera like the z1, which would obviously have all of the goodies inside , like NDīs, and looking at sonyīs history I have a feeling an integrated camera is down the road - nex lenses just arenīt up to the task...maybe for the vg-12 but not the fs100

Danielvilliers
04-08-2011, 09:00 AM
there can be no hack if there are no 10 bit boards in there to begin with. if there were, this camera would be closer to the price of an f3.

There are 8 out of 10 chance that it is true, but what the gh1 has shown is that many many things are controlled by the software in the camera. The manufacturer just has to put a tick on x or y for the fuctionality to be enhance or to remove one. You do understand that it is a marketing choice and not tech one because it is present on the $ 4000 NX5. Which even has an additional Hdsdi connector. The 1.4 HDMI the fs-100 has can even transport 4k 444 signal. I am not saying that it will be possible but I see it as the greatest omission in what could have been a truly revolutionary camera. Guess will have to wait for the final image quality.

Fohdeesha
04-08-2011, 10:34 AM
Said this before, I'll say it again. The cost to implement 10 bit output is next to nothing, and in some cases, based on hardware design, it ends up being cheaper. The baseband board is dealing with data in a 14-bit space, and to dither it down to output, you have to pay for and implement an sdi/hdmi transceiver capable of doing so, whether it's down to 10-bit, or even further down to 8-bit. I am having an hdsdi to 10-bit displayport adapter built for me by an EE friend, and while I don't have the digikey part numbers on hand right now, you can go have a look at the cost between different bit-depths of clocking hardware/transceivers. They're within 5 or 10 dollars of each other. It's pretty clear sony omitted 10-bit out of pure choice

Jay Birch
04-08-2011, 11:52 AM
But FOR ME it definitely is not a dealbreaker as I have never used it here in PAL land for several years and I have done a lot of things. For you it is important, yes I get it. But it's also unbelievable that I can see the same damn complaints from you on several different forums over and over and over again. I get it! This camera is not for you. Move on.

No, don't move on.... make noise, get angry,, ask for changes. The camera might well be right for him, with the exception of this (easily fixed) problem.

Just because you are happy with a PAL camera doesn't mean that we should all just accept it and move on. People power works, it got us 24/25p on the 5DII and manual controls.

I shoot so much work in USA but live in Europe.... I have no time for a PAL camera, it is pathetic and hails back to a decade old view of digital video.

Danielvilliers
04-08-2011, 02:31 PM
Said this before, I'll say it again. The cost to implement 10 bit output is next to nothing, and in some cases, based on hardware design, it ends up being cheaper. The baseband board is dealing with data in a 14-bit space, and to dither it down to output, you have to pay for and implement an sdi/hdmi transceiver capable of doing so, whether it's down to 10-bit, or even further down to 8-bit. I am having an hdsdi to 10-bit displayport adapter built for me by an EE friend, and while I don't have the digikey part numbers on hand right now, you can go have a look at the cost between different bit-depths of clocking hardware/transceivers. They're within 5 or 10 dollars of each other. It's pretty clear sony omitted 10-bit out of pure choice

Yes, I find it strange that people are like brain wash by the Video Camera companies. When you think that a $ 1000 DSLR like the Nikon D7000 does 16 megapixel 6 fps 14 bit raw, it is the same data output of 48 fps 2k (even if it is only for a limited amount of shots) It can do 100 of these in Jpeg, that is take that amount of data in 14 bit compress it into 8 bit jpeg and then store it!!!!!!!!!!! think about the amount of processing in such a small package and such a low cost. The difference is that they are photo camera and don't need to shoot more and they have the mirror and shutter mechanism to cater for. They could shoot much more with only a bigger buffer and a larger case would dissipate heat much better. Nikon even has a patent with a fan cooling system.

All this just to show some people how some very close technology compare to what they are being fed by the video camera industry. This is why we had the HDSLR revolution because there was nothing magical into a s35 size sensor. We photographers have been using it for at least five years (when it became really affordable) at cost as low as $ 500 - $ 600. It was this parallel technology that accidentally met with the hyper conservative market that have provided this revolution. Without the HDSLR we would not have seen camera like the F3, Fs-100 and Af-100 now. We would still have been drooling over the latest 1/3 sensor camera. If someone came and said that we could get an s35 camera for less than $ 5000, many would have said that he was a lunatic. But now Sony just can't give us a 10 bit S35 camera no, even if the NX5 has it and an hdsdi output, and some people find it logical.............. I mean tell me it is marketing choice and not a technological one, then I will understand even if I don't agree with Sony decision at all.

Danielvilliers
04-08-2011, 02:40 PM
No, don't move on.... make noise, get angry,, ask for changes. The camera might well be right for him, with the exception of this (easily fixed) problem.

Just because you are happy with a PAL camera doesn't mean that we should all just accept it and move on. People power works, it got us 24/25p on the 5DII and manual controls.

I shoot so much work in USA but live in Europe.... I have no time for a PAL camera, it is pathetic and hails back to a decade old view of digital video.

+1, so listening to some, we should stop complaining on such basic thing. Is it that hard to put a 24/25p frame rate choice in a camera. I see it more and more where people (fanboi) who defend all the way what a company does. It is as if they ow the company something. It should be the other way around, we are the customer and they are the one that should satisfy our need. The example of the 5d is a very good example and people, us, customers, should be critical on such silly choice by any manufacturer.

djangosan
04-08-2011, 02:42 PM
Or if it's simply too difficult to add a physical ND wheel, how about firmware that lets us switch the IRIS wheel to control GAIN, and then adding negative GAIN settings to our options?


The problem with that is negative gain, and any gain for that matter, decreases dynamic range.

Understood, but negative gain on the Iris wheel would mean that when following someone from inside a building to outside you would lose dynamic range, but still have the shot. Without it you have full dynamic range, but don't have the shot. And sometimes the story requires the shot, warts and all. And maybe it also gives you enough time to wait until it's even possible to get out your NDs.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your meticulousness and your single-minded vision towards the quality of the image. And I don't distrust the veracity of your statement, but I'm also wondering HOW true it is. Given that the "ASA" settings on other non-film cameras are actually electronic gain (negative and positive) you'd think we'd be seeing this already. For instance, while on the AF100 the image does get noticeably worse when going from ASA 400 to ASA 1600 (2 stop +gain), I don't see anywhere near the same degradation when moving from ASA 400 to ASA 100 (2 stop -gain). (I believe the AF100 chip has a "native" ASA of 400, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Recognizing the OP's original request for an ND wheel (and his desire to keep the rig low-key for surreptitious shooting), and in light of many other posters' insightful comments about the impossibility of Sony to implement the idea at this point in the production cycle, wouldn't a negative gain "fake ND" wheel be a reasonable stopgap request for Sony? It seems like something they could implement in a firmware update as a temporary solution, at least until the MOLCADed FS200 comes out in 2014.

Thoughts???

jonatha
04-09-2011, 12:24 AM
Are you seriously making films or not? I've seen all your posts and none of them confirm that you are indeed making films ON FILM. You were asking a lot of DSLR info just awhile ago.

I am an ordinary guy working with a film Industry where make and release more than 1000 films every year,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_of_India
why I make this comments abot FS100 and post all the forum,because I like sper35mm sensor camera from Sony.but some thing missing............and this is the thread for Petition to Sony...........I am thinking if I post here may be some Sony people see this thread then they will help us...............this is not an argument ,this is just my wishful thinking ..............thanks for everybody.

imag
04-09-2011, 07:51 AM
Understood, but negative gain on the Iris wheel would mean that when following someone from inside a building to outside you would lose dynamic range, but still have the shot. Without it you have full dynamic range, but don't have the shot. And sometimes the story requires the shot, warts and all. And maybe it also gives you enough time to wait until it's even possible to get out your NDs.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate your meticulousness and your single-minded vision towards the quality of the image. And I don't distrust the veracity of your statement, but I'm also wondering HOW true it is. Given that the "ASA" settings on other non-film cameras are actually electronic gain (negative and positive) you'd think we'd be seeing this already. For instance, while on the AF100 the image does get noticeably worse when going from ASA 400 to ASA 1600 (2 stop +gain), I don't see anywhere near the same degradation when moving from ASA 400 to ASA 100 (2 stop -gain). (I believe the AF100 chip has a "native" ASA of 400, correct me if I'm wrong.)

Recognizing the OP's original request for an ND wheel (and his desire to keep the rig low-key for surreptitious shooting), and in light of many other posters' insightful comments about the impossibility of Sony to implement the idea at this point in the production cycle, wouldn't a negative gain "fake ND" wheel be a reasonable stopgap request for Sony? It seems like something they could implement in a firmware update as a temporary solution, at least until the MOLCADed FS200 comes out in 2014.

Thoughts???

If that's the style of shooting you're doing, where getting the shot is the top priority, then this probably isn't the right camera for you. Buy any number of small-chip cameras with all the features you want and could ask for. They will have big DOF, NDs, and be much more comfortable for documentary-style shooting. The FS-100 is just not best for that stuff.

The FS-100 looks to me like it is optimized for image quality in planned shots. And in a planned shot, if you were to go from indoor to outdoor, you would either light the interior or - at the worst case, put a small amount of ND on for the indoor shots so that when you go outside, the camera can stop down and shoot just fine in bright sun. Not that hard.

Either way, an ND filter wheel won't solve that problem, unless you are really going to use it *during* a shot.

The FS is sensitive. Some of us are willing to deal with some ND hassle in sunlight to get access to the low-light shooting capabilities. Since there are dozens of traditional cameras that do just fine at the other stuff, I don't see the problem.

djangosan
04-09-2011, 01:46 PM
Thanks for schooling me on that one. Wow. I'm glad you don't want it for your "planned" shots. I should really learn to plan my shots like you real filmmakers. And thanks for the tip about small-chip cameras with big DOF and such. Maybe you can teach me the proper way to set a C-stand, too.

Now read the OP:



PS. Dear fellow users of this great forum, please add your comments to this thread so it grows and hopefully gets through to Sony. At the same time, if some of you are of opposite opinion - please refrain from teaching us how to use our mattebixes, cross-polarizing variable ND filters, etc; not in this thread - please :)

I was trying to add something helpful to the discussion based on the OP's original request to Sony and in light of the engineering/manufacturing contingencies pointed out by other posters. I'm glad you don't need it. But what does telling us that, and then impugning the work of people that do add to the discussion? Also you say that you don't need it now, but believe me when the client asks you to take the FS off the sticks and follow someone around for B-Roll, and you find yourself half a block from your gear, and you're already stopped down to a 8 (and hating the look) and you only have 5 more minutes with the talent, you'll change your mind pretty quickly.

Now back to the topic.... Given that the OP seems to believe (rightly or wrongly) that he would like to have an ND wheel on this camera, and given that it seems impossible to implement in this camera now, would a firmware option which allowed the iris wheel to control negative gain be a workable solution? Why or why not?

If people are reacting to the term "gain" how about calling it variable ISO (since all ISOs but one in every video camera are software generated as sensors are not film)? Again I'm sure there are limitations to how far down we might bring the ISO from its native 800. Do any video engineers on these boards know what those limits might be?

Fohdeesha
04-09-2011, 02:04 PM
Jeez django...no reason to be so hostile. Why wouldn't you just stop down the lens and pull iris like DP's have been doing to control change in scene lighting for the past....80 years?

imag
04-09-2011, 02:11 PM
I apologize if I thought you had no experience. It certainly sounded like it. Instead of stopping down to F8 because you "hate the look" you are hypothesizing the invention of an unprecedented amount of negative gain on the chip. Since you seemed to be okay with losing large amounts of dynamic range to "get the shot," my suggestion to just stop down instead was entirely reasonable in context.

As far as the feasibility of that much negative gain, I think it's fair to say that the engineers and manufacturers just might include it if it were workable. I kind of doubt that they just ignored the possibility. So if you get so upset about being treated as ignorant, perhaps you might think about not proposing that the camera engineers are total morons.

Rick Burnett
04-09-2011, 02:24 PM
The problem is, negative gain isn't doing anything to the photons hitting the sensor. If you are overexposing the sensor, maxing out the pixel values, and you don't want that, the shot will be ruined. With negative gain you are just reducing your dynamic range without giving you anything. Now, if the A/D circuitry is actually the limiting factor, yes, but I've not seen any designs where the A/D was the limiting factor.

Even further, there are two types of gain, analog and digital. Analog gain is digitally controlled, and the circuitry to do this might be stepped and not smooth. This is pretty common. So while you might be able to get smaller steps, it's probably going to be steppy and NOT desired. I agree that in these situations, I would use ND filtering to use the DoF I wanted and I would use a destepped IRIS or cine lens to pull IRIS on the shot. If using certain focal lengths where variable ND filters actually work well (like mine at 30mm) you could probably even rack ND in a pinch.

xbourque
04-09-2011, 09:00 PM
So... do we even know what is the ISO (or gain) range for the FS100?

Since most recent DSLRs can shoot comfortably from ISO 200 to ISO 3200, why can't the FS100 do it too?

(BTW, when shooting ISO 200 on a DSLR, you are effectively using negative gain, since recent DSLRs have base ISOs between 400 and 800. I don't hear anyone complaining about dynamic range suffering).

-- Xavier

djangosan
04-09-2011, 09:12 PM
Sorry I reacted that way imag.

And thank you Rick. I guess that just begs the question that I was trying to get at earlier, at what point (and why) are we overexposing the sensor? It's not only the amount of photons falling on it, it's also how we're driving it.

This is how I understand it, correct me where I'm wrong. A CCD or CMOS sensor is like having only one speed of film (native) If you vary from that by going to a higher or lower ISO its sensitivity actually does not change. Rather it is like pushing or pulling your film when it is processed. That is why you get "noise" like grain in film.

But I would argue that the iso rating of a sensor (or even of a filmstock) is not really as fixed as it appears (in fact there were several filmstocks made that could be processed at differing iso ratings). And while one can not do variable processing on a frame in a roll of film one can do variable (analog) processing on individual readouts from a sensor. One can even feed that sensor a slightly different voltage to change its sensitivity. Right?

If I change the ISO settings on my AF100 or my GH1 or even my old D40, obviously the gain of the system is changed, amplifying the signal from the sensor. What's not clear to me is where the amplification takes place. Complicating matters is that I think the lowest ISO setting is certainly not always the native ISO. To get to the lower ISO it seems to be applying negative amplification (negative gain?). And yet the lowest setting doesn't clip where the native ISO does, it's able to handle more photons. Nor is there this insane loss of dynamic range that everyone is warning me about. So what's happening?

As I understand it, changing the ISO setting can be responded to in two ways (or a combination). The signal from the sensor can be amplified (more or less) prior to AD conversion and / or the digital version can be adjusted numerically after AD conversion. There are noise suppression approaches for both. But of course if the signal coming from the sensor is clipped, there's clearly nothing we can do. I believe I stated as much already:

a clipped highlight at the sensor would stay just that.

I believe most DSLRs have an amplifier before the ADC. I don't know if this camera is the same. But if it is, is the amplification amount "theoretically" adjustable without changing any hardware? Is it a firmware script that sends the voltage to the sensor? I have a hunch that it is, and that this is how we get lower ISO settings on cameras that have native settings of say 400. If so, then we have a non-destructive way to introduce negative gain without negatively affecting the image. Capisce?

I think the word "gain" is throwing everybody. How about Electronic ND? Or Sensor ND? I should probably copyright both terms, because the more I think about it, the more I can't believe it hasn't been done already.

I'm 100% open to being dead wrong about HOW to implement it: I'm not really that smart about engineering. But I do think that Electronic ND is small potatoes compared to the engineering hurdles that this camera has overcome thus far in coming to market.

FWIW I'm not dissing the camera, I'm still probably gonna buy one, even though I already have an AF100. I also promise you I will and do use Real ND filters whenever possible, as well as rock the vari-NDs when appropriate. Scout's Honor. Also, I don't think I'm smarter than the engineers who designed the camera, but I'm not sure that anyone has asked if they could do this.

I'm simply trying to respond to the OP's request to Sony in light of the reality that it can't happen the way he wishes. I'm trying to posit another alternative that could accomplish what he's asking for and could be implemented at this stage of the production cycle.

BobbyMurcerFan
04-09-2011, 11:56 PM
All, I can tell you is that you can look at each photosite on the sensor as a bucket. Once it gets full it can't hold any more. This condition is happening when the highlights are getting blown out. I'm sure that there is electonic trickery involved in lowering the ISO that tries to minimize appearance of this condition. But at a fundamental level, measurement ends the point at which something is full.

xbourque
04-10-2011, 12:35 AM
All, I can tell you is that you can look at each photosite on the sensor as a bucket. Once it gets full it can't hold any more. This condition is happening when the highlights are getting blown out. I'm sure that there is electonic trickery involved in lowering the ISO that tries to minimize appearance of this condition. But at a fundamental level, measurement ends the point at which something is full.

It is for that reason that you don't see DSLRs that go from ISO 10 to ISO 596 000... at some point, when you stray too far from the "base" ISO, you either get banding/low dynamic range (low ISOs) or too much noise (high ISOs). However, since modern CMOS DSLRs can be comfortable from ISO 200 to 3200 (i.e. -6db to +6db @ base = 800 ISO), I wonder why there is no negative gain available on the FS100?

--Xavier

PeterMedia
04-10-2011, 04:57 AM
Sorry guys, what we face is maketing not tec issues.
There are reasons GH2 has no 25P 30P
FS 100 no SDI out no ND filter and even no 24P ( in an interview Sony representive says it will come later but not sure the UPdate will be free.
When the thing is in the wild we will see if it can competit against AF 100 regarding to its slight better specs in noise and resolution
Bases on today I would say the large sensor ranking goes like that
GH2-- AF 100 --and Sony F3 --Epic

But let me say one thing clear regardng to my rankinf list.
In principle we should be happy what we can already get from 1500 US to 40000 US.
2 years ago we would thinking that ranking is a fools days post

Maybe this will change even tomorrow during NAB. Pesonally I whish to see a AF 150 with 10 bit SDI and slight improvements on OLPF eg.
But maybe some new players will enter the game.
Long thime ago I heard from a company " which will give us a cam with S 35 sensor for a arround 12 K ( ready to use) , but may be that was still "gone with the wind""

imag
04-10-2011, 05:56 AM
@djangosan: An apology on the internet? No one does that! Seriously, thank you. I apologize for my presumption as well.

PeterMedia: It's that damned "value pricing". Price around what someone will pay, but not what it costs. It's the holy grail of the modern market.

I do appreciate that Panasonic seems to price around true cost. It's going to pain me to support Sony on this one, with all of their anti-customer BS over the years. It's that darned image though. I just love it. The AF100 images just don't seem to breathe in nearly the same way, despite it being a better package.

David G. Smith
04-10-2011, 08:40 AM
@djangosan: An apology on the internet? No one does that! Seriously, thank you. I apologize for my presumption as well.

PeterMedia: It's that damned "value pricing". Price around what someone will pay, but not what it costs. It's the holy grail of the modern market.

I do appreciate that Panasonic seems to price around true cost. It's going to pain me to support Sony on this one, with all of their anti-customer BS over the years. It's that darned image though. I just love it. The AF100 images just don't seem to breathe in nearly the same way, despite it being a better package.

I think that the pricing of the AF-100 and the FS100 probably do reflect their costs, plus, of course. Panasonic has the advantage in pricing in that the costs for the design and development of the sensor in the AF100 can be shared across a large volume of consumer grade DSLRs. The costs for the the design and development of the sensor in the FS100, designed for a $13,000.00 CineAlta line camcorder, must be spread across a lower volume of products. It might be argued that Panasonic is practicing "Value Pricing" more aggressively than Sony is.

kurth
04-10-2011, 11:44 AM
thatīs why weīre sure to see more cameras from sony with the f3 sensor

David G. Smith
04-10-2011, 12:03 PM
thatīs why weīre sure to see more cameras from sony with the f3 sensor

Exactly.

Danielvilliers
04-11-2011, 11:57 AM
http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/hyperdeckshuttle/

Another reason why 8bit output is obsolete. It is making it harder and harder to warrant a 8bit output in todays world. What it shows is that the theory as if 10 bit output would have made this camera much more expensive. If you would have told someone that you could have a 10 bit recorder for less than $ 400 he would have told you it would have never happened. What is good with blackmagic is that they are demystifying the video world which is grossly overpriced. Look what they have done with the Davinci Resolve which has a free version now. They should buy or design a camera!!!

tom.wong
04-11-2011, 12:01 PM
the absolute KEY to this product that it's mega ultra simple. no licensing to codecs, pure black magic uncompressed quicktimes. no touch screen BS, or monitoring. record, review, sdi and hdmi loop throughs. with off the shelf recordable media. as basic as it gets, and super functional. I've been waiting for something like this for awhile. and following the logic of convergent. if you only need a compressed high quality codec, just buy a few more SSD's and transcode to your drives directly from the SSD with a laptop to your codec of your choice.

Viddovation
04-11-2011, 12:30 PM
Blackmagic just made my external recording decision for me. And, if I decide I really do need a dual link recorder for 1080 60p... well their Ultra Studio 3D ($995) looks like a steal. Would just need to upgrade my mac...

The Gemini looks amazing, but I can justify buying the Hyperdeck Shuttle as soon as it comes out.

Skilled
04-23-2011, 07:29 PM
Does anyone think that Sony will come out with a S-log like the one for the f3?

Jarrett P. Morgan
04-25-2011, 06:23 AM
Does anyone think that Sony will come out with a S-log like the one for the f3?

I would highly doubt it. That is a serious high end feature that is a $3000-ish (I think) add on to the F3. Also, I don't think that you can output s-log through HDMI (it takes Dual Link HDSDI to do it on the F3)

morgan_moore
04-29-2011, 09:09 AM
On NDs

I have not read the whole thread but here is my take

I own an EX1 and love that (apart from a LAV receiver) it is basically a pick up and shoot package

My DSLR rig is a nightmare for covering atuallity

Say you are covering a wedding and going from bride exits car to birde down aile

You are most likely to need ND for shot one but not for shot two

For shooting reality there is NO TIME to be fiddling with external bits like NDs

I dream of an S35 camera and going out with one lens,

Currently this looks like the F3, and a Red Zoom as the only upgrade to a DSLR in terms of hassle

S

alaskacameradude
04-30-2011, 09:46 AM
On NDs

I have not read the whole thread but here is my take

I own an EX1 and love that (apart from a LAV receiver) it is basically a pick up and shoot package

My DSLR rig is a nightmare for covering atuallity

Say you are covering a wedding and going from bride exits car to birde down aile

You are most likely to need ND for shot one but not for shot two

For shooting reality there is NO TIME to be fiddling with external bits like NDs

I dream of an S35 camera and going out with one lens,

Currently this looks like the F3, and a Red Zoom as the only upgrade to a DSLR in terms of hassle

S

Or even better, an F3 with the new announced Sony zoom lens that was shown
at NAB. I'm still waiting to see what the cost for that beast of a lens will be.

morgan_moore
04-30-2011, 11:49 AM
IMO that new lens is not wide enough for S35 RnG use and too slow

alaskacameradude
04-30-2011, 12:26 PM
IMO that new lens is not wide enough for S35 RnG use and too slow

Hmmmm....well it's a constant F 3.8, which with the chip that is in the
F3 should be PLENTY fast enough for anything I shoot. Of course, everyone
has different needs, so maybe it won't work for you. The Sony is an 18-252 zoom,
I'm just curious what Red lens you are talking about that is wider than
the Sony lens? I am aware of a RED 18-85 T 2.9, a RED 17-50 T 2.9
and a RED 50-150 T 3.0. None of them seem to be much wider than the Sony
lens, they are a little faster, but I would consider just how good the F3 is
in low light before you worry a ton about F 3.8 not being fast enough.
However, I am first to admit that I don't know a ton about RED, so there
may be a better R&G Red lens out there that I don't know about?

morgan_moore
04-30-2011, 12:45 PM
at the mo I use a tokina 16-50 2.8 on my 7d

Optiically and physically its not too good, but I find the range about right, still not really wide enough

I guess the Red 17-50 is the closest but with the ability to shoot open and good mechanics

Im looking to do a master and some CUs with one lense

Rarely do I go very tele, just enough to isolate the BG

Its all personal of course

And a good lowlight chiip is indeed worth a stop you are correct

Today I have been shooting F3.5 all day (nikkor) and it looks OK


S

alaskacameradude
04-30-2011, 04:39 PM
at the mo I use a tokina 16-50 2.8 on my 7d

Optiically and physically its not too good, but I find the range about right, still not really wide enough

I guess the Red 17-50 is the closest but with the ability to shoot open and good mechanics

Im looking to do a master and some CUs with one lense

Rarely do I go very tele, just enough to isolate the BG

Its all personal of course

And a good lowlight chiip is indeed worth a stop you are correct

Today I have been shooting F3.5 all day (nikkor) and it looks OK


S

I think that Sony also had an 11-16 zoom lens for the F3. So between
the two Sony zoom lenses, you'd be pretty well set. Of course, you'd have
to change lenses and use the 11-16 for the wide shots and the 18-252
for everything else.....and depending on what you need for low light
shooting, I think they are both F3.8 lenses. At least there are some
options coming out. I'm not a big fan of using still lenses on a
motion picture camera, but that's just me.

morgan_moore
04-30-2011, 09:57 PM
Indeed I agree with the limitations of still lenses - 'Optiically and physically its not too good'

Im also not a fan of lens changes in live events, especially if you have a FF

so 11-16 and 18-XX has to me the wrong break point

What I do like about my 24-105 on the 5d is to shoot sequences really really fast without breaking the kit

I dont even need to be able to zoom while rolling..

http://dslr4real.tv/smmspace/webimages/dslr4real/randoms/onelens1.jpg

Same reason I want onboard ND !

alaskacameradude
04-30-2011, 10:41 PM
Indeed I agree with the limitations of still lenses - 'Optiically and physically its not too good'

Im also not a fan of lens changes in live events, especially if you have a FF

so 11-16 and 18-XX has to me the wrong break point

What I do like about my 24-105 on the 5d is to shoot sequences really really fast without breaking the kit

I dont even need to be able to zoom while rolling..

http://dslr4real.tv/smmspace/webimages/dslr4real/randoms/onelens1.jpg

Same reason I want onboard ND !


There had been a rumor about some 'fast' 12-60 'video optimized' lens
coming out for the AF100. I haven't heard anything more about that.
I think those pictures you posted shows EXACTLY why having a good
zoom lens is just so handy. Quick 'sequence' without switching
lenses. I am HOPING that now there is big sensor video cameras, will
drive the lens market to make something, but who knows?

By the way I agree about the onboard ND, maybe in the FS200.......

morgan_moore
04-30-2011, 11:05 PM
Indeed - I think Sony think people use zoom lenses to zoom while rolling .. horror of horrors 9 times out of 10

Rick Burnett
05-01-2011, 10:36 AM
I really like the Tokina 11-16 at F2.8, which I look forward to trying on the FS100. I also agree that the low light performance of the FS100 is something I'm going to have to experience to see how much slower of a lens I am comfortable shooting.

Generally, I don't buy lenses slower than F2.8 for use on my AF100 and 7D. I sometimes do event filming at night at on the 7D I found that as long as I stayed below ISO1600 I was happy with the quality.

With the AF100, I've shot all the way up to ISO3200 before and the footage is actually REALLY good for that ISO, but, at 3200 the noise can creep up on certain shots.

I looked at +30dB gain footage off of the FS100 and was shocked at how clean it looked. And this was with some pretty slow lens it looked like. So yeah, with the FS100 it's really going to be interesting.

What would be nice is if someone made some sort of magnetic ND system where you could put a magnetic mount on every lens you have, then just stack the NDs on that. Maybe I'll write a few of the ND companies about that idea. Could be REALLY nice.

Rick Burnett
05-01-2011, 10:38 AM
And PS, we just used a zoom while recording on our last part of our web series :) Even with a lens that changes aperture while zooming! Fixed it in post and it's awesome. But then again, we used it for that kung fu enemy reveal hilarity! :) (We don't generally use it)

Tzedekh
04-07-2012, 10:51 AM
I would highly doubt it. That is a serious high end feature that is a $3000-ish (I think) add on to the F3. Also, I don't think that you can output s-log through HDMI (it takes Dual Link HDSDI to do it on the F3)
Sorry to resurrect a year-old thread, but from a data-rate perspective HDMI 1.4 could indeed support S-log 4:4:4, as its data rate maxes out at 10 Gbps vs. dual-link HD-SDI's (or 3G-SDI's) 3 Gbps.