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View Full Version : This GY-HD100U is SWEET ! ! !



lebroz
04-09-2005, 09:00 PM
This GY-HD100U is SWEET ! ! !

Tell me this cam ain't pretty,

Take away the HDV and add DVCPro...

Can Pana release a re badged GY-HD100U with *DVCPro* & Hard Drive Whoa !

lebroz
04-12-2005, 06:39 PM
Are people boycotting me? 200 views not 1 reply?

And didn't I compare the JVC to a pretty woman walking down the street pretty woman I'd like to meet oh pretty woman let me lick your neck and kiss your cheek L.J.

ShannonRawls
04-12-2005, 08:34 PM
reply

harlan
04-12-2005, 10:12 PM
word!

Zig_Zigman
04-13-2005, 12:22 AM
Perhaps we are all simply waiting for you to take over Entertainment.

Loki
04-13-2005, 08:53 AM
i am boycotting you... for no apparent reason... I say why not.. makes for interesting dinner conversation..

reservoir
04-13-2005, 09:53 AM
I'm convinced Lebron James, oh excusa' mwa', *LEBROZ JAMES*....is taking over entertainment. Has no one else noticed all the *HIGH QUALITY* content on that lame ass 1992 html website? Tell me he's not taking over. I dare you!!

~reservoir~

scharky
04-13-2005, 11:32 AM
NO doubt
"mirror mirror mirror, on the wall, who's the dopest rapper of them all"?

Really original stuff here:cheesy: .

But I do commend the guy for at least getting out there and, well, uh, doing something.:)

Glenn_Gipson
04-14-2005, 05:31 AM
You would think that people would be all over this camera, right? Well, they aren't, and I can understand why. Three letters, JVC. People are extremely skeptical of JVC's inventions. And this is a BIG invenstment, probably very close to the HVX100. Nobody wants to buy into this cam, and it's needed support (Deck, NLE) only to have JVC discontinue it like they have the HD1 and HD10 due to poor sales. JVC has a LOT of ground to make up in terms of earning general respect. I, however, really hope that this cam is their ticket, but it remains to be seen.

ShannonRawls
04-14-2005, 07:22 AM
Glenn,

But do you think it will sell well because of the offerings?? I kinda actually think this camera might do well in sales and we'll see/hear about allot of them on the indie sets.

- ShannonRawls.com

Glenn_Gipson
04-14-2005, 08:40 AM
Like I said, it's gonna take a while for this cam to command respect. Just look at the amount of people viewing this forum, vs. the HVX100 forum.

Heck, I rememebr when the DVX100 first came out, and the PD150 and Xl1s fans tried to dog it out as a cheap "plastic cam." If I was JVC, I would really try to undercut the HVX100's price...then people will start to take IMMEDIATE interest in this cam.

Barry_Green
04-14-2005, 01:14 PM
I think it looks like a beautiful cam, and I think they'll sell bucketloads of 'em to wedding & event videographers who are looking for that shoulder-mount look.

For indies, I think it's a lot less appealing, at least until we see the footage. 720p vs. 1080p, 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2, tape vs. P2... no contest. If it wasn't for the HVX announcement, I think the JVC would be the hottest camera on earth. But I think the HVX did to the JVC what Sony's Z1 did to the XL2 -- totally stole its thunder.

But it's all about the footage. If the JVC delivers the goods, and Panasonic's footage punts, then the JVC will become *the* indie camera to beat.

reservoir
04-14-2005, 01:19 PM
But it's all about the footage. If the JVC delivers the goods, and Panasonic's footage punts, then the JVC will become *the* indie camera to beat.

I bet the HVX footage is gonna' be so good, it'll make me wanna stand up and slap my momma'!!

At least that's what I'm hoping for. STUNNING FOOTAGE!!

If not, we'll just go with the bastard son *JVC* and give their camera a whirl. HD100user.com anyone? :)

~reservoir~

ChuckS
04-14-2005, 03:38 PM
I think it looks like a beautiful cam, and I think they'll sell bucketloads of 'em to wedding & event videographers who are looking for that shoulder-mount look.

For indies, I think it's a lot less appealing, at least until we see the footage. 720p vs. 1080p, 4:2:0 vs. 4:2:2, tape vs. P2... no contest. If it wasn't for the HVX announcement, I think the JVC would be the hottest camera on earth. But I think the HVX did to the JVC what Sony's Z1 did to the XL2 -- totally stole its thunder.

But it's all about the footage. If the JVC delivers the goods, and Panasonic's footage punts, then the JVC will become *the* indie camera to beat.
Sure it's all about the footage, but I find it interesting that although Panasonic has used P2 in other standard definition cameras that it is launching the first tapless HD camera in the prosumer market. That's cool, I'm not sure if the presumer's can afford the workflow, but that's really cool. :thumbsup:

Glenn_Gipson
04-14-2005, 03:41 PM
In all fairness to JVC, I never owned one of their cameras before, I'm only going off of user reviews from the HD1 and HD10. I do have a JVC production monitor which is working nicely (as it should.) I hope this cam is all that too.

Zig_Zigman
04-14-2005, 03:44 PM
No one doubts the Panny will rock. The JVC has a couple strikes against it already - First, it's JVC, and as it has been pointed out, has many skeptics to overcome. Two, workflow issues are unknown, and possibly expensive.

However, the hvx looks like 6 painful months away <insert sad icon here>

Still, 16x9 and 720 24p, how many of us would have killed for that last year? When you think about how good the blowups from a dvx have looked, you've got to like cams that produce 2 to 4x the information.

Barry_Green
04-14-2005, 05:06 PM
That's what I'm saying -- if it wasn't for the HVX announcement, I think we'd all be lined up around the block to get the JVC! It's amazing how quickly this industry moves. Canon was top dawg for about two weeks with the XL2, before Sony announced the FX1 and brought out affordable high-def in a usable camera. Then before you know it, they put out the Z1, brought out 50i & 60i, PAL & NTSC, all in the same camera. And that's not even on the market two months before JVC trumps 'em totally, offering 720/24p in high-def with a removable lens!

And JVC doesn't even get to *show* their camera before Panasonic spanks 'em silly by offering 1080/24p, 1080/60i, 720/60p, all at 4:2:2 color... and adds in P2 tapeless recording too.

And now the FX1's have dropped in price twice, the Z1's being discounted, and the XL2 has a $500 rebate on it if you buy the 16x lens. AND THE POOR XL2 HASN'T EVEN BEEN OUT FOR 9 MONTHS YET!

Don't blink...

Aaron Koolen
04-14-2005, 05:45 PM
I hope that I can blink. I really DON'T want the camera market to turn into the PC hardware market. Where we just constantly, every few months, get something new.

But I hear what you're saying Barry. It's the crazy year. All this stuff going on with the HiDef rage that's happening at the moment. I can *probably* wait until later in the year for the Panny (Panasonic, please surprise us with a finished camera at NAB ! :)) but who knows what will be on the horizon then.

Anyway, I have lots more other stuff to learn, rather than just buy gear.

Aaron


Aaron

reservoir
04-14-2005, 05:59 PM
That's what I'm saying -- if it wasn't for the HVX announcement, I think we'd all be lined up around the block to get the JVC! It's amazing how quickly this industry moves. Canon was top dawg for about two weeks with the XL2, before Sony announced the FX1 and brought out affordable high-def in a usable camera. Then before you know it, they put out the Z1, brought out 50i & 60i, PAL & NTSC, all in the same camera. And that's not even on the market two months before JVC trumps 'em totally, offering 720/24p in high-def with a removable lens!

And JVC doesn't even get to *show* their camera before Panasonic spanks 'em silly by offering 1080/24p, 1080/60i, 720/60p, all at 4:2:2 color... and adds in P2 tapeless recording too.

And now the FX1's have dropped in price twice, the Z1's being discounted, and the XL2 has a $500 rebate on it if you buy the 16x lens. AND THE POOR XL2 HASN'T EVEN BEEN OUT FOR 9 MONTHS YET!

Don't blink...


Serioulsy Dude....what's next? In 2 months Sharp announces the *end all be all* of HD cameras: 1080 and 720p at 60 / 30 / 24fps, 1/2" CCD's, Built in Hard Drive, etc. for 5K!!

I never say NEVER anymore. It could seriously change *like that*!! Overnight!!

I'm in Panny's camp for awhile though. I can't see too many people / companies 1-up-ing the 24p Kings!!

~reservoir~

scharky
04-14-2005, 06:06 PM
Sharp?
how about an Emerson HD camera, I'm sure theyed sell butloads, for $49.95 ea.

reservoir
04-14-2005, 06:20 PM
Sharp, Emerson, Phillips, Samsung, Hitachi, Magnavox, let's see'm flood the market!!

That is a J-O-K-E of course!!

~reservoir~

David Jimerson
04-14-2005, 06:47 PM
Interesting footnote, though, that JVC is the Victor Company of Japan, as in, RCA/Victor. They use the little dog/victrola logo now and then.

lebroz
04-15-2005, 01:17 PM
The reason that JVC does dumb things is because, it is the step son of Matsushita

Panasonic was made to be a world wide name for Matsushita because they thought Americans and the world are too dumb to pronounce Matsushita (look up the history of an electronics empire, Sony is in there also)

JVC(Japan Victor Company) was a small company that was competing with Sony and Matsushita so Matsushita bought them out.

Experimental products are brought first by JVC then Panasonic used that as R&D and releases there own. They are step brothere JVC/Pana or Cousins whatever you prefer.

The 1 chip HDV cam was an experiment, bad one, people in JVC professional where told that they had to make a pro cam based on the tech(inside sources, cant tell you) *hint* do a search, or even ask Jan C. she would know all about the JVC consumer/ JVC Professional debacle with the GR-HD1/JY-HD10U.

People in JVC Pro asked Matsushita and and JVC consumer why the hell they even released the 1chip HDV in the first place. (Big head ache making the JY-HD10U and puting there JVC Professional stamp on it.)

Another example is JVC and there new camcorder lines using hard drives and soon solid state (the $1000+ cams (there is a 3ccd based on the Pana 3ccd system coming soon) Everio GZ-MC500(DV GR-X5)) Yeah thats right Pana will be next...

Res and all the other people talking about the HVX/HD100 comparison, no way no how will the HVX blow this cam out of the water.

They will both be close to eachother for the most part, each will have its own advantages but image wise if anything the JVC will have the edge, features I want that HVX you can stick the slight image advantage up your butt,

P2 cards maybe Pana will play nice and have the technolkogy licensed(they will still make $)

aftermarket 2GB P2 Sandisk/PNY $129 after rebate at staples

HTTP://HTTP.staples.com/Catalog/Browse/sku.asp?PageType=1&Sku=562830&bcFlag=True&bcSCatId=3&bcSCatName=Technology&bcCatId=89&bcCatName=Memory&bcDeptId=1987&bcDeptName=Flash+Memory&bcClassId=142162&bcClassName=Secure+Digital+%28SD%29+%26+MultiMedia +Cards+%28MMC%29

It is 4 SD(Secure Digital) cards running together in raid after all (yep thats the secret)

reservoir
04-15-2005, 07:08 PM
Res and all the other people talking about the HVX/HD100 comparison, no way no how will the HVX blow this cam out of the water.

Where did I say that the HVX would *Blow* the HD100 out of the water? I didn't. I'm partial to the HVX, but I feel that both cameras will be viable right off the bat. You can't really go wrong either way. Matsushita has the market corned now, no doubt. Both cams will be better / worse at different things and will excel in different markets I think. HVX will probably remain an *indie* filmmaker's #1 cam until P2 prices stable off. HD100 will definately garner success in the event / videography sector. Like I said, you can't really go wrong either way. One of the cams *should* work for you!!

HELL, I'm seriously thinking about getting BOTH!!

One thing is for certain, Sony and Canon might be a distant memory after NAB unless they get on the ball and start developing / announcing new cams that would actually have a chance competing with the HVX / HD100. And by competing, I mean competing NOW or in the near future.....Not 2 years from now....CANON!!

It would never happen due to Sony's arrogance and their tight fisted dictatorship....but I'd like to see them 1-up Panasonic (For ONCE!! :) ) by releasing a *Mini CineAlta*.....with all the features of HVX + some. Sort of the way Panny appears to be releasing a *Mini Varicam*. It might not ever happen, but I think there's a chance it would now that Panny has "Boldly gone where no other Camera maker has gone..."!! Sony *WILL* be forced to compete with *SOMETHING* and that is only good for *US* the consumer and the rest of the industry. :thumbsup:

~reservoir~

Barry_Green
04-15-2005, 07:24 PM
Sony *WILL* be forced to compete with *SOMETHING*
Y'know, you can see it that way, and I can see it that way, and the rest of the world can see it that way, but until SONY sees it that way, it doesn't mean anything.

Their idea of competing with 24p is to offer a 24p OPTION board for DVCAM and Digital Betacam cameras. Mind you, that option board costs more than an HVX or HD100!

On the other hand, it looks like they think CineFrame 24 is viable, because it sure sounds like that's what they plan on adding to their other DVCAM cameras: 60i imaging recorded as 24p.

They don't get it.

Don't count on 'em getting it any time soon.

And if they don't, their "leadership" in broadcast, etc., is going to start to look an awful lot like IBM in the computer world...

reservoir
04-15-2005, 07:33 PM
Agreed Barry.

I mean, in my heart of hearts I really do like *most* Sony products and I think they have an unlimted potential to do great things, but it seems like they just don't *GET IT* sometimes.

I find it weird that when an entire community of filmmakers / broadcasters / hobbyists ask for certain things (like 24p) there ARE companies that genuine listen and *DELIVER*....and then there is SONY. Always coming in and playing by their own rules. Maybe my fantasy of a *MiniCineAlta* is just that....a fantasy. But if Sony would at least add true 24p to their current cams, they'd be a step in the right direction for sure. It would definately turn alot heads.

~reservoir~

scharky
04-15-2005, 07:34 PM
Who's IBM?:thumbsup:

lebroz
04-15-2005, 08:29 PM
I agree with Barry G. Sony doesn't really care they have enough liquid assets and dumb customers(24p add on costing more than a DVX) around the world where they can survive.


start to look an awful lot like IBM in the computer world...

I.B.M. ? IBM is the most underrated company in semi-conductors, they sold all of there divisions,

If IBM is so dumb and bad then why did Panasonics father company (Matsushitas Hitachi) buy their hard drive devastations and technology.

IBM just sold their notebook division(they are not IBM's anymore) for a whole lot of $

They are a semi-conductor fab, the most powerful semi-conductor and enginering company in the world, do a little research, they manufacture a crazy amount of chips for everyone,

Pop quiz: What company will make the main CPU on every(yes every) next generation video game console, the big 3 (Sony (Microsoft (Nintendo ohhh ...

IBM yup thats right and after that what will set top boxes use?

IBM has sold almost all of their businesses and is working on becoming a micro chip manufacturing powerhouse (they where already their Motorola G4-G5 thanks to IBM) why are they cashing out in every business except C.P.U.'s ?

Its not a coincidence with the next Nintendo, Gamecube already uses an IBM CPU, Microsoft? weird that they chose IBM over Intel but they did, AND SONY? what after all that money Sony and Toshiba spent on the PS2 technology out the window Sony on IBM's balls big bad Sony with IBM

How you can all speak of this 3 letter company like they are obsolete...

reservoir
04-15-2005, 09:04 PM
Don't forget about the new Dual Core Power Macs powered by IBM!! Hope to hear more about those badboys at NAB :)

~reservoir~

Barry_Green
04-15-2005, 11:08 PM
I speak of IBM's leadership in computers as being obsolete because they don't even *make* personal computers anymore. They started the whole thing, and for the longest time they were #1 in PC sales, and now they don't even participate.

I'm not saying the company is obsolete, sheesh. Just like Sony is a whole lot more than a camcorder company.

But if they don't start listening to their customers, Sony can easily go the way of IBM in computers, or Sears in retailing (remember Sears? The world's biggest retailer? The one none of us here has stepped foot in in the last 10 years?)

Four years ago everyone was rabid for the next Sony product, and when Panasonic would announce something we'd all go "so?" Ain't that way anymore. The tables have turned. And yes, Sony will soldier on and they will make some decent products, but the days of people only buying Sony are either closed already, or are rapidly drawing to a close.

Of course, Sony could change that, if they'd just listen to their customers (and prospective customers) and at least *match* the competition, instead of pretending that what the competition's doing is irrelevant...

Isaac_Brody
04-16-2005, 06:37 AM
I think the word you're looking for is hubris. Sony has a habit of not giving the customer what they want or need, not just in camcorders, but in mp3 players as well. They lost big to apple because they tried to shove their own proprietary audio format down the customers throats.

Sony has been really struggling these past few years and they just got a new chief for their electronics divisions, and the guy isn't Japanese. It's the first time a non Japanese chief has assumed the role. Hopefully they'll swallow their pride and join the 24P(true 24) prosumer bandwagon.

Zig_Zigman
04-16-2005, 10:15 AM
I was at a meeting of digerati last night and a guy there swears that Sony will be releasing a 24p cam soon. I put this in the "ok, sure" pile, but still. Sony could sell a lot of "Mini-Altas" if they felt they wanted to.

reservoir
04-16-2005, 12:56 PM
Not to bust anybody chops....but IBM *still* does make PC's and bookoos of servers as well.

http://www-132.ibm.com/content/product_images/en_US/ThinkCentre_A_Series.gifhttp://www-132.ibm.com/content/product_images/en_US/ThinkCentre_M_Series.gifhttp://www-132.ibm.com/content/product_images/en_US/ThinkCentre_S_Series.gif

I personally like their PC's. They are almost Mac PC's....and by that I mean they have ALOT of style. They can be quite expensive though, compared to a Dell. :)

You won't find them at your local Circuit City or Best Buy......you have to buy them staight from IBM directly. They are more geared toward businesses and not really the average consumer. The do exist though.

I think the reason that IBM has scaled their PC market WAY down is because there are soooo many other companies making them....the market is saturated and it really is hard to make money on PC's. Fortunately for DELL, they have taken the Microsoft / Walmart strategy......Infiltrate, Destroy, Rebuild!! :grin:

~reservoir~

thisiswells
04-17-2005, 03:39 AM
Sony needs is to take one in the gut. They need to say, "we acknowledge some of our ideas haven't been very useful to you, we're going to try and change that"

As nonsensical as this sounds, and I know it will not happen, they should drop Blu-ray to avoid a
format controversy with HD-DVD. I think people that care about such things would recognise
the effort on Sony's part that they're "taking it in the gut" and would remember it when they
actually have enviable product line again someday. Just thoughts. I think if Blu-ray weren't
already established and being implemented with OEM's already they might have actually
pulled the plug. Of course, things being the way they are, it's a go ahead. Fun to toil over.

brian wells

reservoir
04-17-2005, 09:49 AM
they should drop Blu-ray to avoid a format controversy with HD-DVD.

I'll disagree here because I think Blu-ray is one of the few things Sony is doing *RIGHT*. Not only is it a superior format to HD-DVD, but they are gaining support from everybody....Studios, hardware manufacturers, etc. very quickly!! They are definately on track with this one.

And now I'll be pummeled by the *but HD-DVD is cheaper to make*......and *HD-DVD can be made on the same assembly lines as DVD* fanboys......but I hate to break it to you.....while this may somewhat true, it is just rhetoric and propaganda put out by the HD-DVD camp. Sorry!!

Sony....and the rest of the industry.....know's they have a winner in the making here.

~reservoir~

Nick Adams
04-17-2005, 10:48 AM
just remember though that beta was a better format than vhs but which one took the market.... sometimes it's not about the better format.... although I think blue laser will definetly be a major contender in the race...

reservoir
04-17-2005, 11:26 AM
just remember though that beta was a better format than vhs but which one took the market.... sometimes it's not about the better format.... although I think blue laser will definetly be a major contender in the race...

The difference is:

We are not talking about Beta vs. VHS. We are talking Blue Laser vs. Blue Laser. And I think Blue Laser is going to win. :)

~reservoir~

Barry_Green
04-17-2005, 12:25 PM
Yeah... except... Sony's already approached the HD-DVD camp twice, offering that maybe they should fold both standards together and just produce one product.

I'm hoping they do.

reservoir
04-17-2005, 12:37 PM
Yeah... except... Sony's already approached the HD-DVD camp twice, offering that maybe they should fold both standards together and just produce one product.

I'm hoping they do.

Word!!

~reservoir~

harlan
04-17-2005, 02:46 PM
Well not to be platform specific, but DVDSP4 supports both HD-DVD & Blu-Ray formats.

reservoir
04-17-2005, 03:08 PM
Well not to be platform specific, but DVDSP4 supports both HD-DVD & Blu-Ray formats.

Says who?

And how can this be since no exact specifications for either format have been finalized / released (to my knowledge)!!

~reservoir~

Phooey
04-17-2005, 06:49 PM
Apple's press conference today introduced HD-DVD. But they didn't say anything about Blu-Ray. My guess is that either it will have upcoming support, or they'll be introducing the hardware tomorrow, then indicate support for both.

reservoir
04-17-2005, 07:10 PM
What the hell? HD-DVD....they must be going to support both formats. I mean....wtf?....they just recently joined the Blu-ray consortium!!

Actually...from what I'm reading on their website about finalcutpro studio....they are saying you can encode h.264 video onto *exisiting* DVD's. I didn't read ANYTHING about supporting full-fledged HD-DVD.

~reservoir~

Rezzie
04-17-2005, 07:31 PM
What Apple is doing is having HD encoded onto normal DVDs, but so far they can only be played back on Apple's DVD player program...maybe DVD players released in the near future will be able to play them.

reservoir
04-17-2005, 07:36 PM
That would be kinda cool. I don't see it as a *major* obstacle because alot of dvd players can already play encoded formats like Mp3's and stuff.

~reservoir~

Phooey
04-17-2005, 09:25 PM
Yeah. Why the hell not?

I've been reading all over Apple's website trying to figure out why in the hell you'd want to record HD to regular DVD's. Only to play on Apple computers? I checked out the new DVD Player 4.5 that comes with Tiger and it didn't say anything about playing HD. But I'm sure it just uses QT anyway. So, I'm cornfused. Seems you could just output an HD project with the H.264 codec, burn that to dvd and play on any computer with QT7. No menus of course, but whatever.

I'm still leaning to the HVX, but I have to admit that Apple's demo of editing HDV footage has my interest peaked. I'm really curious to see some of the new JVC 24p footage shot and edited with FCP5. What sucks is I have a big shoot coming up in August and I would love to shoot HD. Only problem is, I don't rent cameras. It's a waste of money, which I don't have a lot of. And the HVX won't be out.

lebroz
04-18-2005, 08:52 AM
I told people a long time ago that DVD will be here for a long time, It was a argument about Playstation 3 and XBOX 2 (Microsoft chose going with a DVD drive)

Jan why am I still not an integral employee of Panasonic?

I said it and wow It holds up JVC is ... read the title

JVC $5000 street + External Harddrive (HDV, no dropout) = $6000? 80 Gigs + HDV

Sureshot
04-18-2005, 08:22 PM
Back on topic... My biggest problem with the HVX is the lens. Working with these prosumer cameras is such a pain because the lenses suck. The iris closes when you zoom which makes matching two cameras difficult if one's picking up master shots while the other is getting closeups. You can match 'em in post of course, or I could just shoot on a HD100 and save myself the trouble. I've used the same lens on the HD100 on the DV5000U and I can tell you it's a breeze. 1080p is nice though, and so is the 4:2:2. Nevertheless, I have been drooling over the prospect of having a real lens on an affordable HD cam since I started working with the FX-1 a few months ago.

Aaron Koolen
04-18-2005, 09:33 PM
I think the answer is pretty simple for you then, you'd be better served by the HD100. I've never used a pro lens, and so maybe I don't know what I'm missing, but solid state recording, along with the insance resolutions, 4:2:2, TRUE slow motion is probably going to be more than enough for what I do.


Aaron

thisiswells
04-18-2005, 10:11 PM
Back on topic... My biggest problem with the HVX is the lens. Working with these prosumer cameras is such a pain because the lenses suck.


I've never used the HVX lens.



The iris closes when you zoom which makes matching two cameras difficult if one's picking up master shots while the other is getting closeups. You can match 'em in post of course, or I could just shoot on a HD100 and save myself the trouble.

What do you mean? I've never had the iris close when zooming in, that is unless
the lens was at open aperture and closed a few stops while zooming to full telephoto--
like most all zoom lenses--including the finest Fujinon and Canon zooms.



I've used the same lens on the HD100 on the DV5000U and I can tell you it's a breeze. 1080p is nice though, and so is the 4:2:2.

So, then what you're saying is:
"The lens on the HD100 is the same SD lens from the DV5000."



Nevertheless, I have been drooling over the prospect of having a real lens on an affordable HD cam since I started working with the FX-1 a few months ago.

Cool. Me, too. Some of the finest interviews I have ever shot were with the DV500.
That was a really good camera. Totally dig it. But come on, with HD, you have only
two options in HDV: 1080i with four times the resolution of 480i or 720p with
two times the resolution of 480i.. Let's examine how those larger images are handled.

In 720p60 HDV it always records 60 frames a second to tape. Now, when the HD100
is recording 24p, it is actually recording a padded 24 with duplicate frames to tape for
a total of 60, hence the term 720p60. So, you've got twice the resolution of 480i.

In 1080i60 HDV it always records 60 fields a second to tape. Now, when the FX1/Z!
is recording faux CineFrame 24, it is actually recording 24 with a pulldown for a total
of 60 fields, hence the term 1080i60. So, you've got four times the resolution of 480i.

The interesting thing about both formats is they are recording both audio and video
on the same portion of tape that MiniDV normally reserves for only video. That
space if 19mbps. So, when they say 25mbps that isn't really true. There is nothing
on the audio portion of the tape, except the HD100, but it still records compressed
audio in the video portion of tape, in addition to uncompressed in the audio portion.

So, in 720p60 you've got 60 full frames being recorded to a 19mbps stream. Well,
suppose you're only wanting 24 of them, well you still have to record 60. This means
that 24p on the HD100 is actually only 24/60 of 19mbps--or about 8mbps, less than
half that of regular DV. So, twice the resolution and one-half the bandwidth. You know,
that just doesn't seem like a very good tradeoff. Oh, and that's 8mbps WITH AUDIO.

There is alot more I could write about the dishonest tactics used to market HDV,
but I'm tired and just don't feel up to it. Point is: Yeah, maybe you could put a much
more expensive lens on that camera, but the compression would ruin any potential
benefit derived from it. And, you're not going to convince me that iris ring is worth it.

brian wells

Barry_Green
04-18-2005, 11:42 PM
The iris closes when you zoom which makes matching two cameras difficult if one's picking up master shots while the other is getting closeups.
As Brian said, basically all lenses do this, and if you find one with a consistent T-stop throughout the zoom range, it's MEGA expensive.

The solution is very simple -- just use f/2.8 on both cameras as your maximum aperture. That way it'll stay consistent throughout the zoom range.


I've used the same lens on the HD100 on the DV5000U and I can tell you it's a breeze.
Not likely -- the HD100 is using a newly-designed 1/3" lens. The DV5000U is a 1/2" camera. You may have used the same style of lens, but it's very unlikely that you used this same lens.

Sureshot
04-19-2005, 11:37 AM
It's essentially the same lens. The bayonet size might be different, but the focal length and specs are the same.

I'd still rather keep the iris as open as possible for a really shallow depth of field.

The fact remains, I'd rather have a pro, interchangable lens that doesn't close the iris when you zoom.

The main reason I'm not happy with the HVX is because it only records DV to tape. You can't record HD to tape. If you're recording HD you need to use P2 which costs $100/min. Hard drive recording is nice and it does have less hassle than using tape, but there is no method of archiving without going to tape eventually anyway.

redindian
04-19-2005, 12:07 PM
What do you mean? I've never had the iris close when zooming in, that is unless
the lens was at open aperture and closed a few stops while zooming to full telephoto--
like most all zoom lenses--including the finest Fujinon and Canon zooms.

brian wells

no, fixed aperture lenses dont - from wide to full zoom they MAINTAIN the aperture, thats what is wonderful about pro lenses (canon zooms)

ex: canon slr lenses -
70-300/4-5.6 is ~$120 (70 at 4 - 300 at 5.6) while a PRO 70-200/2.8 (70 at 2.8 - 200 also at 2.8) is ~$1700

icicle22
04-19-2005, 12:09 PM
I can't speak to the exact specs of the Canon manual 16x lens for the XL series, but I can say this. On my XL2,when I open the iris all the way at the wide end and zoom to the maximum telephoto end, I see no shift in the iris at all. The numbers in the viewfinder stay at 1.6 all the way through the zoom range and I visually can see that the image does not get darker. The Canon 20x lens drops from 1.6 to 3.2 at the maximum telephoto end. The DVX did this also but maybe not quite as much. I see absolutely no sign of this with the 16x manual. I am not saying that it isn't occurring to some degree but the camera does not report a change and my exposure appears to be constant across the range. I know that lenses is this price range are not supposed to behave this way but this lens is defying that trend. At least for me so far....knock on wood.

FWIW.

Shaw
04-19-2005, 12:24 PM
It happens, or should happen with every zoom lens. Telephoto lenses (which you are effectively creating by zooming) are generally slower than normal/wide angle. The iris doens't change whatsoever but the amount of light actually making it through the lens does. None of these lenses in the DVX class or above adjust the iris when zooming.

icicle22
04-19-2005, 12:36 PM
It happens, or should happen with every zoom lens. Telephoto lenses (which you are effectively creating by zooming) are generally slower than normal/wide angle. The iris doens't change whatsoever but the amount of light actually making it through the lens does. None of these lenses in the DVX class or above adjust the iris when zooming.
I am not sure what you are saying in that last line.
" None of these lenses in the DVX class or above adjust the iris when zooming"?

can you clarify? Because while it may not adjust the iris the numbers in the readout do change to reflect the decreased exposure at the tele side on the DVX and on the Servo XL2 lenses. But on the manual 16x lens the f-stop, as reported by the camera readout, does not change even at max telephoto. And to my eye it does not appear to change the exposure either. On the DVX and the Canon 20x if you expose a subject at wide and zoom all the way in you can visually see the image go darker, without having to look at the readout to tell you, you know it has stopped down. On the 16x manual I just do not see that. If it is indeed slower at the tele end then it is not reporting the proper numbers and I cannot perceive the loss of light with my naked eyes. Which I have to say I like a lot.

Shaw
04-19-2005, 12:48 PM
First we need to make sure that we separate iris from f-stop. The two are related but not the same thing. Iris being the physical aperture size and f-stop being the measure of light that actually makes it to the sensor. While changing the aperture size is the most common and often used means of changing the amount of light hitting the sensor it is not the only means. Changing focal length will have an effect as well. That said,

The f-number will usually change on the body of the camera but the iris itself does not open or close (with the DVX at least). We simply loose light by going telephoto and the camera detects that loss of light and reads it out as a drop in f# (which consequently is taken to be the iris). Does the 16x lens have a manual iris? If so, the XL2 may not have full capability to read the manual settings.

The 16x may very well change little over the entire zoom range but it will change if only slightly. You can optimize a lens, in the design process, for any number of factors. Each design has trade offs. I'm guessing that making a 20x zoom lens for a 1/3" CCD is hard to do well and have consistent results with regard to distortion, aberration etc over the entire zoom range. Because of this it is probably impossible to optimize the lens to maintain maximum light without causing one of the other aspects to become unacceptable. A 16x lens would be a lot easier to make (even though it doesn't sound like that much on paper) and retain a minimal loss of light at telephoto.

thisiswells
04-19-2005, 01:22 PM
what is wonderful about pro lenses . . . a PRO 70-200/2.8 (70 at 2.8 - 200 also at 2.8) is ~$1700

Show me a single wide angle zoom lens with a consistent open aperture throughout the zoom range,
for a price less than $40,000.00 with specs that match that of HD.

Wide angle zoom lenses are more difficult to make than short range medium-telephoto to telephoto zooms.
As video uses such a smaller sensor than film it is necessary to use wider focal lengths than on film.
Because of short focal lengths lenses are more complicated and expensive.

Or, prove me wrong and find that lens.
Zeiss DigiPrimes don't count; they're not Canon or Fuji.

icicle22
04-19-2005, 01:25 PM
The iris is not a manual ring on the lens. It is controlled via the electronic iris switch on the body of the XL2. I agree with what you are saying. I do however remember seeing the loss of light on the old Canon 16x servo of the XL1. I also see it on the DVX and with that being a 10x zoom I would expect it to be less than the 16x manual by Canon. When we cut out all of the specs and technical garbage it can be said that to the casual user the 16x manual lens for the XL2 does not appear to suffer from the loss of light associated with zoom lenses. If this one behaves like this it is quite possible that higher end ENG glass does too. That would give a person the impression that the "consumer lenses" are inferior because they appear to lose a full stop or more at telephoto. In all fairness we have no idea how the HVX200 will react....and unless the person who stated that this behavior is absent on the 16x JVC glass has actually tried it we don't know for sure there either.

I am simply pointing out that the 16x manual lens on the Canon appears to "not" be affected at all (very little) in the exposure department when zooming. So it is fair to say that the 16x Fujinon glass for the JVC could potentially behave the same. And although it is not a big issue, I must admit that I hate exposing a subject, zooming in and finding out it is now underexposed. I guess this only happens in lower light or when you are trying to create a very shallow DOF....which can be frequently if you are looking for the film look.

thisiswells
04-19-2005, 01:32 PM
Probably what you guys are seeing is a vingette of the black internal lens mounts
that hold individual lens elements and probably not an exposure difference.

Maybe someone more adept with lenses could help explain this better than me.

Shaw
04-19-2005, 01:37 PM
Yes you certainly have a point! I've never had the opportunity to use the 16x lens myself. It is interesting that the DVX lens is slower at telephoto. What is the starting focal length of the 16x lens? Just curious.

It will be very interesting to see what JVC and Fuji come out with!

icicle22
04-19-2005, 02:15 PM
I think it is 5.4 but I am not sure. I use it with the .7x WA adapter and get around 3.8 for a start. A little wider than my old dvx but it zooms much farther.

Sureshot
04-19-2005, 05:01 PM
The Canon 20x lens drops from 1.6 to 3.2 at the maximum telephoto end. The DVX did this also but maybe not quite as much. FWIW.

This is because the Canon lens is a 20x and the Panni's is a 13x (I think, but not 20x).

icicle22
04-19-2005, 05:49 PM
I understand that. The DVX is 10x so there should be less of a light loss. But the 16x manual canon seems to have none which is not consistent with the basic formula (with longer lenses being slower).

dvxshooter
04-22-2005, 11:08 PM
Interesting point of view. I do remember JVC meaning "Junk Video Company" and they have had various issues to overcome. However, Adam Wilt gave the previous HDV 1-chip camera a very strong overview last year - and after spending time with this camera, I would estimate that JVC feels this is a follow-on not to the initial HD camera, but to the GY-DV500 series of camera - which they did very well with. Personally, I think this is a well-built (looking and feeling) camera and the NLE deck is very nice as well (much nicer than the BR-600, which was junk - oops! Did I say junk?). There are also some nice features on this camera - not previously seen from JVC. If you want to see the camera, there is a video package at http://www.wiredmetro.com

Ralph Oshiro
04-24-2005, 03:11 AM
Does anyone know when the twin-screw blower is coming out for the Mustang GT 3-valve engine?