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Jarred Land
04-02-2005, 10:23 AM
Click Here to read the article:

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/P2/

TC
04-02-2005, 03:11 PM
Geez, that's a lot of storage.

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/P2/img03.jpg

Jarred Land
04-02-2005, 03:44 PM
yup... I will be happy if in 2006 I can buy a 32gb card for $2000.

StrongDotGuy
04-03-2005, 07:24 AM
Nice article, Jarred. I think Panasonic could expedite the price drop on P2 cards if they expanded them to their next version of the higher end prosumer cams like the GS400, DVC30 and DVX100. There would be more demand for the cards and thus more reason for other manufacturers to support the format.

Jarred Land
04-03-2005, 11:50 AM
good idea, by throwing them in the consumer world we get the price advantages and the market share that we did with DV tape. Its funny, because by using SD cards inside the P2 cards they almost went that route

rfinch3
04-03-2005, 05:44 PM
We shoot on the P2's at work they are like $1500 for a 4gig card, we have to use all five slots to get 80min of shooting in DVCPRO25, they are cool still getting use to a tapeless system.

.Alex
04-03-2005, 06:01 PM
Thank Jarred, great article!

Michael Summers
04-03-2005, 06:55 PM
this is kind of BS for the low budget shooter, being as the reason we all shoot digital is not to pay $$$ for film, and 4 bones for 60 minutes of DV.

Aaron Koolen
04-03-2005, 07:13 PM
The real thing that worries me with this is the reliability. Now I know they are really reliable but when they fail I'd imagine that it'd be catastrophic. On tape you get a few dropouts but imagine the filesystem dying cause the cards can no longer be written to. You'd be in deep shit.

Guess it's only a real issue with a cheap bugger like me. Most people before they get anywhere near dying will have upgraded to a version with 100x more capacity! ;)

Regarding the cost, I guess it depends on how often you shoot. For me, it's not often. I've probably run, maybe 100 tapes through my XM2 in 2.5 years. Each tape is about NZ$9 so that's $900 for all I've done in 2 years. Now NZ$900 is about US$700 so really I can't justify US$4K on some cards. Especially seeing as, at time I've needed more than 1 tape and can't carry a laptop. But really, anyone who is earning $$ of this stuff, will probably recoup it really fast and it's be well worth it.


Aaron

Jarred Land
04-03-2005, 09:29 PM
reliability isnt an issue.. its an always closing system which mean every 2 seconds it closes the file, so if you do have a big bad disaster you only loose 2 seconds, and there is a repair button on the cameras that will fix it.

Think about your SD cards, its extreamly rare for a SD card to just get up and die.

Dizkoteck
04-03-2005, 10:52 PM
Does it have firewire support? if so, then I guess we could leave the card in the cam and perhaps use it as a VTR and capture?

I agree with some of you for the low budget shooter. I think having a P2 card system will close yourself to editors and production companies that carry that type. Lets say, I sign up for a job and they have to choose person A with P2, an expensive format and a new thing they have to deal with and at this point, not trust or person B, an HDV camera which can record longer on cheaper tapes on an HDV deck which is pretty much relatively a cheaper alternative for a simliar format. (I hope Im making myself clear, its late at night)
I dont know, I think this new HDX camera is separating itself from the low budgeters and the high enders who needs more than just 4 minutes per card. which just might lead itself to a "ugly car that can turn into a speedboat for $200,000" situation.

eqwalker
04-04-2005, 07:26 AM
Maybe Panasonic will see fit to include a P2 card in with the camera when purchased.

Aaron Koolen
04-04-2005, 06:08 PM
I guess by reliability, I meant, when it finally gives up the Ghost, you might not know it and find you've lost everything. Or will the cams usually report the write errors, so you can quickly change?

Aaron

Jarred Land
04-04-2005, 07:32 PM
Maybe Panasonic will see fit to include a P2 card in with the camera when purchased.

I cant see them NOT doing that.

Elvis
04-05-2005, 09:23 AM
Great article Jarred . Just what I needed something else to think about. But seriouslly, you made some good points about the real cost of tapes and work flow.

jmproductions13
04-05-2005, 02:18 PM
i think this whole P2 thing is stupid and its going to sell horribly. it has great advantages but the cost is just too much for Panasonic's target market. I know I certainly don't have two grand to drop on a memory card for my camera.

Maybe they should think about incorporating hard disks into the camera. how nice would that be? then you just plug the camera into the computer just like plugging in a firewire hard drive, simple and cost free.

dvpixl
04-06-2005, 10:03 AM
So If I have a laptop with PCMCIA slot, I can dump footage and edit rightaway provided that my laptop can handle it or with additional hardware or what not,

and if I have a regular desktop or a mac, then I need to buy the p2 player right?

and the portable ones all connect as usb 2.0? no firewire?

Barry_Green
04-06-2005, 11:08 AM
A laptop with a PCMCIA slot should, yes, be able to edit the footage immediately. Also, if your laptop doesn't have PCMCIA, but it does have a firewire or USB2 port, you'll probably be able to plug the camera in through one of those ports, and edit the data that's on the cards in the camera.

For a desktop, you'd need some sort of PCMCIA reader device, which should set you back less than $100. Or, again, use the camera as the reader (which presumes that the HVX will have a firewire and/or USB2 port, and that if so equipped, that they work the same as the SPX800's USB2 port does).

dvpixl
04-06-2005, 02:23 PM
cool, thanks Barry

Jan_Crittenden
04-07-2005, 03:47 AM
[QUOTE=Dizkoteck]
I think having a P2 card system will close yourself to editors and production companies that carry that type. Lets say, I sign up for a job and they have to choose person A with P2, an expensive format and a new thing they have to deal with and at this point, not trust or person B, an HDV camera which can record longer on cheaper tapes on an HDV deck which is pretty much relatively a cheaper alternative for a simliar format.

1. P2 is not a format. It is a memory card. It records DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, DVCPROHD, or DV. It could also record MPEG4 or MPEG2, it is format agnostic. The shooter with the P2 card camera has an advantage over the tape shooter as the footage can be handed over to the editor is a ready to edit form, on a hard drive.

2. HDV and DVCPRO HD are different. Technically, 100 Mbs, vs 25. 4:2:2 vs, 4:2:0, I frame only-intra-frame compression, vs, 15frame GOP- interframe, lose a frame and you lose the GOP. True Progressive frames in DVCPRO HD, uncompressed audio, and I could go on. To sum up though, these two formats only have the letter H in common.

3. Yes I agree with you that you could record the HDV on a mini DV tape.


(I hope Im making myself clear, its late at night)

You are trying to say that HDV and DVCPRO HD are equals and you couldn't be more more wrong. HDV is a consumer format. Too many concessions in the compression to make it really viable for the professional, IMHO.


I dont know, I think this new HDX camera is separating itself from the low budgeters and the high enders who needs more than just 4 minutes per card. which just might lead itself to a "ugly car that can turn into a speedboat for $200,000" situation.

Here I am not sure of your point. All I can say is that the HVX is designed for the professional that has a variety of work coming their way and that the fact that the camera is able to offer a variety of formats makes it a very flexible camera, suitable for just about every application.

Best regards,

Jan

pootify
04-07-2005, 08:57 AM
Just out of curiousity, why would you use one of these expensive little cards instead of just hooking up a hard drive to the HVX?

Jarred Land
04-07-2005, 10:01 AM
because if your going out to shoot something really quick, the cards are small light and almost indistructable.

dvpixl
04-07-2005, 10:10 AM
i can see how that works too. but I am planning to buy firestore fs-4 now and completely abandon from filming on tape- except to archive... for now...
and though I'd love to get rid of tape, i can't beat the mobility it still gives me.. and I think that's why im going to look forward to P2

Aaron Koolen
04-07-2005, 05:44 PM
Just out of curiousity, why would you use one of these expensive little cards instead of just hooking up a hard drive to the HVX?

And I think they are more robust - no moving parts so if you're scrambling around being bumped etc, less change of damage.

Less noise - i.e. NO NOISE

Better operating temperature than an HD.

The only real downside to P2 that I can see over HD, is recording times. It's better in so many ways.


Aaron

pootify
04-07-2005, 07:32 PM
Portable HDs really make that much noise? I never really thought of that as a problem, especially if you don't keep the hard drive on top of the mic. And I never really plan to scramble around with my camera either, or doing much anything that would damage a hard drive.

I dunno, just from a budget and storage capacity POV, I would just get the HD and eliminate the P2 middleman. Not to say the technology isn't a novel idea, but it seems to be a step backward in practicality. Saying the small capacity of these P2 cards is analogous to film loading seems to be just an excuse to pass off overpriced/bloated technology -- it seems like such a silly setback for a technology that already gets rid of so many inconveniences of film.

letsburnbridges
04-09-2005, 06:17 PM
so, in all seriousness, why cant they release a 32gb card like, next month? i think companies withhold technology and release it slowly for us to..consume. that sucks.

Kahn
04-12-2005, 11:47 PM
I work on a variety of projects for production houses and record labels, and a problem I see coming is the situations just after a shoot. Producers want the tapes in their hands when you walk away. If you do not shoot & edit for clients, then it will limit their post options. They will have to go to post houses who support P2. And will they keep the card until it is dumped in the system, do they replace the cards, do they bring their own, etc? 75% of the time, I hand tapes to Producers at the end of the show, pack up and leave. This could not be the case with P2 cards unless they cost as much as a tape and clearly they will not, at least not for several years. This is what may give JVC an advantage. How many Producers do you know that want to add more costs and more steps to post production? None. And how many shooters are going to hand their cards over to a company so that the footage can be entered into the system, which could take a day or two? None. And no producer in their right mind would let the "master" card go until post is totally complete. And even then they would probably want to keep it. It isn't going to be the technology, it's going to be changing the minds of professionals who are stubborn and scared by a system that "seems" to take away the safety net. Would they digitize the tapes you give them now and then say, "Here are the tapes back, do whatever you need to do with them, erase what's on it so you can use it again". Sounds scary to me. This will be a huge hurdle.

Barry_Green
04-13-2005, 12:20 AM
Only a hurdle if you think of it in the same way as one thinks of tape.

Instead, imagine this workflow: as you shoot, you offload the cards to a firewire hard disk. At the end of the shoot, instead of handing the producer a boxload of tapes that they'll have to then go waste a day or two or five logging and digitizing, you instead hand over a hard disk. With all the clips pre-digitized. Edit-ready. In a format that's already understood by FCP-HD, Avid Express HD, Canopus Edius, and (next week) probably even more platforms.

Rather than creating some sort of "hurdle", you will instead be the producer's hero, and the #1 call on his/her speed-dial list next time they're shooting in your town.

You keep your cards, and you give them the hard disk (which, contrary to what someone may think, would actually be a lot *less* expensive than handing over HD tapes!)

It remains to be seen how Panasonic intends to approach this P2-to-hard-disk workflow. They have the P2 Store device, which lets you automatically transfer to a 60gb hard disk, but unless that hard disk is user-interchangeable, I don't really see that as a practical option for handing over at the end of the shoot. But if I could pick up a 160gb hard disk at Best Buy or CompUSA before the shoot, use it to dump the cards to, and then let them have it at the end ... that's a revolution. Instead of wasting days digitizing, the producer can be editing the show right away. They're gonna love it. And those shooting HDV aren't gonna have a chance to compete with that -- especially if they're shooting incompatible HDV formats (which, by the way, is the situation we currently have with the HDV so-called "standard" -- if you shoot on the JVC 720p cameras, and try to play it back on a Z1, you *cannot* digitize from the Z1, it won't play back the 720p HDV stream out the firewire...)

Handing over a pre-digitized hard disk is going to make you the producer's favorite shooter.

Jan_Crittenden
04-13-2005, 01:17 AM
Actually you would not need to hand over the card, just move the data to a hard drive and hand over the hard drive. Then they wouldn't even need to digitize, just mount the drive, review the footage and start the edit, That would get them in and out of the edit suite faster.

As far as not releasing the 32 GB card now, that would be based on 4 8GB SD cards. Those don't exist just yet. It is not a witholding of technology, it is waiting for it to be possible.

Best,

Jan

Aaron Koolen
04-13-2005, 02:36 AM
Actually you would not need to hand over the card, just move the data to a hard drive and hand over the hard drive. Then they wouldn't even need to digitize, just mount the drive, review the footage and start the edit, That would get them in and out of the edit suite faster

I sooooo can't wait to see the death of crappy tape systems and their capture times!

Well done Panasonic - even before I've seen the camera ;)


Aaron

Rush
04-13-2005, 09:17 PM
As an equipment rentals manager for EVS, I can see the advantages of using P2 for people, and I can also see them renting 4 or 5 cards along with the camera and simply billing for the whole rental. Currently a DVX rents with us for $175, with 15% off for DVXusers. That makes it $148.75 (4.5% of the value of the camera) to rent a $3300 camera for a day or a weekend. The value of an AG-HVX200 seems double that of the DVX, so it will probably be a $297.50 daily rental. Add 2 cards at a $4000 value, and you have a total bill of $297.50 + $160 (cards) = $457.50. That is still cheaper than renting an SDX-900 from the rental house next door, and you are shooting real HD and handing your producer real progressive HD footage. I see that as an economical workable solution, that can be easily figured into a budget. Compare it with renting a Varicam, and it becomes even more affordable. Two of these cameras will hopefully be getting into my rental department as soon as they hit the floor!

bilgami
04-19-2005, 05:31 PM
BiLGaMi Video Productions :shocked:

How much video does the 2gb card record.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

safarijoe
04-20-2005, 11:01 AM
I'm just getting started in the video buisness and the reason I bought the DVX inthe first place is because it offered topflight features at an extremely reasonable price. Along with that operating cost is factor. The whole reason for the HVX is to give Panasonic a leg up on the XL2 (native 16:9) and the Sony HD-FX (read HiDef) in the prosumer market. Although the advantages of the P2 card are obvious, the simple fact is that the low recording times for HIDef (after all, if you're not going to shoot HiDef, why do you need this camera?) and the high expense of the P2 card put this camera out of the reach people like me. I might be tempted to spend $5000 to $6000 for this camera but there's no way I'd spend another $4000 to $5000 for the media and it's support equipment. Maybe in a couple of years they'll have a 60 or 80 gig card at a reasonable price (under $800). If that happens, then I'll be back.

Bucknfl
07-07-2005, 12:41 PM
How do you archive your HD footage?

235 Studios
07-13-2005, 06:40 AM
How do you archive your HD footage?

That is a great question, and one in which I would love to know the answer. Archiving DV is easy and cheap - onto tape. Archiving from P2 seems to be cumbersome right now. You could archive onto and Harddrive, which is getting cheaper to do everyday, but what about when you upgrade your computer, you'll have to be able to continue to access the Harddrives, or you'll have to buy new ones and copy the info over to them if they are not compatible with the new system. I suppose that you could archive on P2, that is if you've got a lot of money to burn.

I'm excited about the possibilities of a tapeless world, but right now that world seems far off ...

Jan_Crittenden
07-13-2005, 07:35 AM
That is a great question, and one in which I would love to know the answer. Archiving DV is easy and cheap - onto tape. Archiving from P2 seems to be cumbersome right now. You could archive onto and Harddrive, which is getting cheaper to do everyday, but what about when you upgrade your computer, you'll have to be able to continue to access the Harddrives, or you'll have to buy new ones and copy the info over to them if they are not compatible with the new system. I suppose that you could archive on P2, that is if you've got a lot of money to burn.

I'm excited about the possibilities of a tapeless world, but right now that world seems far off ...

Frankly Ryan, hard drives would not be my first choice. In fact would be the very last next to tape. hard drives are not reliable to put on the shelf for years without bringing them up to spin on occasion. Once Data is Data, it is much cheaper to archive that way. You do have to think about archiving as it will require a plan unlike just putting all your tapes on the shelf.

The options are DVD, which is a little small even on dual sided, as it will only save about 1 minute a Gig. Blue-ray which on the dual will get you closer to 50 Gigs, but that still seems small. I would take a look at Quantum with their new DLT, the 600 as is actually is MXF aware, or the ExaByte LTOs as both of these systems offer a better bang for the buck than tape and offer a better ratio for saving just the good stuff. When working with DVCPRO HD, the tape is much more expensive than DV tape and saving everything is expensive. Also on the horizon is the Holographic Blue Lazer which also looks like a cost performance winner.

Hope that helps,

Jan

235 Studios
07-13-2005, 05:57 PM
Thanks Jan. I always appreciate your input. I agree that Hard drives would not be the way to go, but for the here and now they seem like an affordable bridge until other options become available, many drives can be had for less then $1/Gig. I'll look into the Quatum, sounds like a possibility. The other options sound better to me, but alas they are not available yet :cry:

blckhawk542
07-20-2005, 09:43 PM
I saw that card today...its freakin huge!!! for 4 gigs? dammnnn. Its like 5 or 6 inches long and 3 inches wide

digitial dan
08-23-2005, 01:30 PM
dream on!

Jan_Crittenden
08-24-2005, 04:24 AM
Hi,

You are kidding right? The P2 card is the same size as a PCMCIA Slot.

Best,

Jan