Baby F3 aka NXCAM S35

[Viddovation]

Maybe to properly compete with the DSLRs Sony needs something cheaper than $6,000 (NXCAM 35), something more close to $3,000 price point. And certainly, something better than NEX-VG10, so maybe an improved large sensor video camera like the NEX-VG20 could do the job. I personally don't think that they will release two NXCAMs, a high-end consumer version, and a professional version (though I wouldn't be inclined to call 'professional' a camera that doesn't include HD-SDI output). But really who knows, there is only uncertainties at the moment.

Actually - if we're talking about directly competing, Sony should just improve the video capabilities of it's DSLR cameras. Clearly, there's an eager market for hybrid cameras, and Sony could capitalize on that more.

For users who want video and XLRs and outputs worthy of external recording, I think $5k is the bottom of the market.

[kurth]

lots of rumors floating around - maybe a vg20 and obviously an a77 and a new nex - supposively we´ll see soon - truth is ....sony is on fire at every level of the market - it would be icing on the cake if scarlet was outed at nab - I think I might have to sell my car !

[Lee Saxon]

But there's already the NEX-VG10 at the bottom of the market, and the PMW-F3 midmarket, and the F35 as the flagship. Why introduce two separate models beween the NEX-VG10 and the PMW-F3?

I would think the idea would be more like place one model between them (NXCAM) and then replace the VG10 with something that, you know, doesn't suck.


For $13.5K, Sony had to cut corners.

This is my problem with the F3. This isn't true. At similar prices, compare the specs of the F3 and the Epic-S. For the moment Sony still has the "Red isn't out yet" argument, but once that dries up...


March 21st we will see it ALL......

I hope so that's my birthday!

[Jay Birch]

At similar prices, compare the specs of the F3 and the Epic-S. For the moment Sony still has the "Red isn't out yet" argument, but once that dries up...

but it is a HUGE arguement. People are out there shooting all kinds of paid work on the F3. No one is shooting anything on an Epic-S spec sheet.

Personally, I think anyone who thinks the F3 is overpriced has been spoiled by the DSLR boom and/or RED promises. Look at the images coming from the camera, then try and find anything close for under $20k

[DavidChia]

RED promises.

I stopped waiting a long time ago. It is typical of red to pump up the hype, history has shown... just look at the red one...

even my old pdx 10 is better then the epic-s at the moment, why because I can make $ now now with it. Imagine telling my client, look you got to wait till I get the epic, you footage will look great (maybe). You just have to wait... and wait.

[kurth]

I think people don´t have any idea how difficult it is to make a digital camera from scratch like a scarlet, esp. if your not canon or sony or panasonic. While I think Jims´internet social skills could use a makeover, we ( I ) still have to give him credit for the effort and some might even hold out hope that a camera is in the wings ready to fly. That said , go sony go !

[vanvideo]

I think people don´t have any idea how difficult it is to make a digital camera from scratch like a scarlet, esp. if your not canon or sony or panasonic. While I think Jims´internet social skills could use a makeover, we ( I ) still have to give him credit for the effort and some might even hold out hope that a camera is in the wings ready to fly. That said , go sony go !

I think many people who inhabit this forum are well aware of the complexity and difficulty in designing and building a modern HD camera, whether from a small or large company. I also applaud RED's entry into the high-end HD camera market and I can't wait until the 2/3" Scarlet finally debuts.

That said, promises made- and unfulfilled - over a span of years gets old. How would you react to Sony if they announced the F3 this year, with all the specs and such - and kept teasing you with pictures and promises for years to come, but won't offer it for sale? Wouldn't you get a little cynical?

[S. Matthews]

people have far to close an attachment with this to either hating or defending. Stop comparing everything to epic s, because people will go on about it just being a sheet of paper it is very annoying from both sides you are just going in circles. Find a way to discuss them without out throwing these things in each others faces. it is possible to compare a product that is about to be released to a future proposed product like the epic s you just have to do it right, and be respectful, and those who read it have to interpret it as a way to discuss both camera's and not a "this cam sucks compared to the great RED cams of the future".

because the reality is, people may understand the hard work all the companies out there are putting in to better our tools, but there is very few of them showing it, and almost none showing respect to all the companies for what they have done, are doing, and will do. Honestly using the fact red announced it's products early and lets us in on the process and were over excited about delivery dates, to attack them constantly is a weak argument and a horrible reason not to talk about or consider a product, just the same as not buying what would be a perfect camera for you and improve work you are currently doing and pay for itself because you are waiting for a camera that has no release date is equally unintelligent in my opinion.

why can't we all just get along?.....

Play nice!

[Barry_Green]

We can all get along as soon as people divorce themselves from unannounced or unreleased products or rumors, and instead focus on what's available today to deal with the situations they have to face today. If the question that comes up is "I have this job that needs to be done, what should I use" and we were all to adopt the attitude of discussing available products to meet that person's need, there would be very little fighting.

The problem comes about when people mix the hypothetical, and the unreleased/unavailable, and the rumored, in with the practical. I submit that there is zero point in discussing something that is rumored, and very little practical can be gained from discussing an unreleased product, and discussing unspecified "announcements" that in and of themselves disqualify themselves from being binding or accurate, is simply counterproductive. When an announcement becomes formal and binding, then it's more reasonable to take it seriously and evaluate it for whether it merits discussion at this time.

Cameras are not, and should not be, religions. Use what you like. DVXUser should, however, be more focused on actually USING those products.

[kurth]

I´m not sure ....sometimes I definitely feel a religious experience comin´on ! Seriously, there are two types of rumors. One , something substatiated by the company and two, something a rumor site receives from an anonymous source. The second type is obviously pure speculation but the first has some value in terms of planning . That said ...content rules and the camera you have with you....etcetc.

[HHL]

We can all get along as soon as people divorce themselves from unannounced or unreleased products or rumors, and instead focus on what's available today to deal with the situations they have to face today. If the question that comes up is "I have this job that needs to be done, what should I use" and we were all to adopt the attitude of discussing available products to meet that person's need, there would be very little fighting.

The problem comes about when people mix the hypothetical, and the unreleased/unavailable, and the rumored, in with the practical. I submit that there is zero point in discussing something that is rumored, and very little practical can be gained from discussing an unreleased product, and discussing unspecified "announcements" that in and of themselves disqualify themselves from being binding or accurate, is simply counterproductive. When an announcement becomes formal and binding, then it's more reasonable to take it seriously and evaluate it for whether it merits discussion at this time.

Cameras are not, and should not be, religions. Use what you like. DVXUser should, however, be more focused on actually USING those products.

+1

....to add to that....please remember that "released"...but unavailable....is the same as unreleased. 25mm F0.95 anyone? GH2 body anyone? ...there are MANY other offenders....so I you can't get your hands on one....wait until you can before you start beating someone over the head who's SHOOT a project on a lowly T2i....and least they are SHOOTING. :)

[Sam Scoggins]

I´m not sure ....sometimes I definitely feel a religious experience comin´on ! Seriously, there are two types of rumors. One , something substatiated by the company and two, something a rumor site receives from an anonymous source. The second type is obviously pure speculation but the first has some value in terms of planning . That said ...content rules and the camera you have with you....etcetc.

Unfortunately there is a third type of rumor, where certain sites (not to mention any names) simply make something up, without making it clear that they are speculating i.e. giving the impression they are privy to some kind of inside information. This is just to generate traffic. Luckily their Karma will catch up with them one day.

[kurth]

Unfortunately there is a third type of rumor, where certain sites (not to mention any names) simply make something up,

well that has the same result as anonymous rumors but my point was that the first type ....like the rumor of the nxcam we´re all here discussing, has positive benefits. For example, many people who are considering a F3 or an AF100 , might delay their purchase plans based on future product announcments .There might even be a case where someone would delay a project waiting for equipment. A 3D camera in a future pipeline might be an example, or waiting for an affordable 4K. For example, I was going to buy an A55 and then Pany made the gh1 so cheap I bought that instead but which also allowed me to wait out the mythical A77 . So I made decisions based on rumored cameras. From my perspective it´s smart knowing what´s coming.

[S. Matthews]

We can all get along as soon as people divorce themselves from unannounced or unreleased products or rumors, and instead focus on what's available today to deal with the situations they have to face today.

Rumors aside, I have to believe there is room as well to have a rational discussion comparing unreleased camera's to current or soon to be released camera's and not just what is available today, we do have to focus on tomorrow as well. That actually taking place and being constructive enough to out weigh the camera envy/snobbery/hatred/bad day/whatever is a whole other matter altogether.

have a good one!

[DavidChia]

being able to shot now now and make $ is king.... rent what ever is available presently to get the job done. Sure, future cameras do come out... So when it comes out , learn what it can do and then rent it for a job. I hope that by waiting, you can also make $ too. If that is the case, good on you. like I've said. At the moment, I can make $ with my old pdx 10. I wonder if any one has earn $ from waiting for the epic-s.

[Duke M.]

Its easy for Red to look good by comparing what they are planning to offer in a year or two with what was planned, built and released by the big three last year. That's comparing old technology to new technology.

One big problem is that what Red talks about now may not be what they actually release. Two of their spec sheet cameras have already been dropped or so radically changed as to not be the original proposed camera, and most of the rest of proposed cameras have been significantly altered.

Really you should compare a Red product that's coming out in a year or so to what Sony, Canon or Panny is offering in a year.

a) The big three don't give their specs a year ahead of time.

b) What ever Red tells you ahead of time is likely to change.

Result, its not worth the time to compare planned Red products to anything, only what's out now.

[JWVaricam]

Rumors/speculation will always be around - that's just the way it is. And it is a good thing. Thank Red's rumors/speculation for helping push forward all of these other great cameras that have started arriving or are on the horizon. Red started this revolution - and has been a great assist to Panasonic, Sony, to a lesser extent Arri and others by not delivering in a timely fashion. Great stuff.

[vanvideo]

Rumors/speculation will always be around - that's just the way it is. And it is a good thing. Thank Red's rumors/speculation for helping push forward all of these other great cameras that have started arriving or are on the horizon. Red started this revolution - and has been a great assist to Panasonic, Sony, to a lesser extent Arri and others by not delivering in a timely fashion. Great stuff.

I thnik you're giving Red a little too much credit. I just don't see Sony, Panasonic and Arri execs nervously chewing their fingernails while scanning the reduser.com forums. Yes, Red should definitely be congratulated for bringing a digital cinema camera to the market. But it can be argued this digital cinema revolution started with George Lucas insisting on using HD cameras for his Star Wars flims. He proved audiences don't really care if a movie is shot on film or video, as long as it looks good and has a good storyline (The Phantom Menace notwithstanding).
I see Sony and Panasonic's new large sensor cameras as more of a reaction to the new DSLR craze. (Does the F3 even compete with the RED or EPIC?) Heck, even Red might be guilty of this: notice all the bru-haha over the "affordable' Scarlet.
Give Red its due, certainly. But give as much credit to Canon and their DSLRs.

[Danielvilliers]

I think the big difference of speculating on the NXCAM and the RED, is that you have 99% of chance of seeing the Sony in less than four month. Until now, Panasonic and Sony have been really good at the delivery date of there latest Camera. There might be shortage but it is normal for highly anticipated product like the F3 or Af100. I don't think it is absurd for someone to wait for the release of the NXCAM to decide what camera he is going to buy. On the contrary if someone plans to wait for the Epic S or scarlet, it would be better to find an alternative solution until it comes out. I remember, it was like august/September when the red boss was saying/teasing that we would find the Scarlet S35 would see the light of the day before NAB 2011!!! For it to be completely scrap for the Epic S one month afterward when details of the F3 came out.

Something I don't understand is why people are still waiting and doing the comparison with rumored RED product. I don't know why this Camera fetishism. I think everybody in the red camp should thank Sony for the F3 and soon to be NXCAM (shouldn't we call it fs100 now :-) because they can buy and shoot now with some quality equipment. Then when the Red Epic-S or scarlet comes out, you can sell them. You can buy lens, hardware, accessories, etc that you will be able to use with you red. Just swap the brain... in red terminology. Are all these people doing the next blockbuster. When you hear people talking it is as if there level of expertise is so high that the F3 etc are too low quality for them. As more people are seeing, the F3 is really like a baby Alexa, a camera which is today's Hollywood darling.

[Danielvilliers]

I thnik you're giving Red a little too much credit. I just don't see Sony, Panasonic and Arri execs nervously chewing their fingernails while scanning the reduser.com forums. Yes, Red should definitely be congratulated for bringing a digital cinema camera to the market. But it can be argued this digital cinema revolution started with George Lucas insisting on using HD cameras for his Star Wars flims. He proved audiences don't really care if a movie is shot on film or video, as long as it looks good and has a good storyline (The Phantom Menace notwithstanding).
I see Sony and Panasonic's new large sensor cameras as more of a reaction to the new DSLR craze. (Does the F3 even compete with the RED or EPIC?) Heck, even Red might be guilty of this: notice all the bru-haha over the "affordable' Scarlet.
Give Red its due, certainly. But give as much credit to Canon and their DSLRs.

+1

Red has it place in the history of digital cinema, but it should not be overstated. Most of the release lately are more conditioned by the DSLR revolution. Even red changed it strategy when the HDSLR came about. It was not a coincidence that all the new concept of the modular Epic and scarlet was revealed (The old concept scrap) only month after the Canon 5d came out with all the excitement around it. Red is playing into the hand of its competitor, mainly Sony. Not long ago Sony seemed like a sleeping giant that was not reactive at all and many were saying that red would eat them alive. They worked in secret (not showing there card) and now each card they are putting down is a big blow to red.

They started with the F3 that made red change there plan and scrap the scarlet S35 to do an upmarket Epic-S. The FS100 should compete with the scarlet, it won't beat it in resolution, but chip size, low light will be at its advantage. Many will prefer the look of the S35 to any 2/3 size, me included. Now the biggest blow to Red image is the New 4k/8k camera. Just when red is introducing its 5k Epic Sony comes out with a 8k chip. All the time Red has been telling the world that it had the highest resolution etc. that your film will be obsolete if you don't shoot more than HD, they a trumped buy Sony. They won't have the barging right anymore. For sure nobody might be able to afford the Sony but in terms of image it has the highest resolution. Red is only now releasing in very low volume its Epic it won't be years before they can match the Sony. All the time they were changing and changing there technology, not releasing product, to have braging right been the best etc, they are trumped at the finishing post.

[Barry_Green]

Well, I guess it all comes down to this: how has the Scarlet affected your work over the last three years? How has the Epic affected your work over the last three years?

I will grant you that they have given people something to talk about. But, as Tuco said, "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

How much money have you folks made using your Scarlet with your Redrock V3 MicroRemote follow focus over the last year? And are you seeing strong rentals on your Redrock EVF or your Zacuto EVF? Because I can tell you that there are many people on this forum who have made plenty of money over the last year shooting on their HPX170 or EX1, using their old clunky Marshall monitor and their outdated Redrock V2 follow focus.

Speculation is for suckers. It's pointless, it's counterproductive, and it sucks up time that could be better put to some other use. Here, let me give you an example -- is there any camera the Red users and Scarlet faithful hate more than the "low res" HVX200? And Jim has gone on record saying that "shooting on 1080p is a mistake" and whatever... meanwhile, our very own Faith Granger decided that instead of waiting for and speculating on a Scarlet, she went out with her HVX200 and shot a little micro-budget film called "Deuce of Spades", pretty much by herself. She has since sold over 10,000 copies of that film through direct sales, grossed over $220,000 cash, has quit her day job, bought a motorhome for cash, and will spend the next year touring the country, showing and screening her film, making a hell of a lot more money than she ever did at her day job, and living the dream.

On an HVX. And I don't even know if it was 1080p, she might have even shot (ooh, how dare she) 720p. Was that a "mistake"? Don't make me laugh.

Scarlet? Epic? She could buy 'em cash if she wanted to. She could buy dozens of them cash if she wanted to. Why? Because she didn't wait, she didn't speculate, she didn't worry about whether or not it was a "mistake" to shoot on 1080p.

Screw speculation and rumors. Get off your **** and do something instead. The tools that are available today are good enough, if you are. And if you're not -- there ain't nothing that a new tool is going to do to change that.

The ONLY camera that counts, is the one you can use RIGHT NOW to make something happen.

[Doctor Wu]

As the old saying goes... "The Best Camera In The World, Is The One You Have With You." For a lot of people, that's the Iphone.

[vanvideo]

Well, I guess it all comes down to this: how has the Scarlet affected your work over the last three years? How has the Epic affected your work over the last three years?

I will grant you that they have given people something to talk about. But, as Tuco said, "When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk."

How much money have you folks made using your Scarlet with your Redrock V3 MicroRemote follow focus over the last year? And are you seeing strong rentals on your Redrock EVF or your Zacuto EVF? Because I can tell you that there are many people on this forum who have made plenty of money over the last year shooting on their HPX170 or EX1, using their old clunky Marshall monitor and their outdated Redrock V2 follow focus.

Speculation is for suckers. It's pointless, it's counterproductive, and it sucks up time that could be better put to some other use. Here, let me give you an example -- is there any camera the Red users and Scarlet faithful hate more than the "low res" HVX200? And Jim has gone on record saying that "shooting on 1080p is a mistake" and whatever... meanwhile, our very own Faith Granger decided that instead of waiting for and speculating on a Scarlet, she went out with her HVX200 and shot a little micro-budget film called "Deuce of Spades", pretty much by herself. She has since sold over 10,000 copies of that film through direct sales, grossed over $220,000 cash, has quit her day job, bought a motorhome for cash, and will spend the next year touring the country, showing and screening her film, making a hell of a lot more money than she ever did at her day job, and living the dream.

On an HVX. And I don't even know if it was 1080p, she might have even shot (ooh, how dare she) 720p. Was that a "mistake"? Don't make me laugh.

Scarlet? Epic? She could buy 'em cash if she wanted to. She could buy dozens of them cash if she wanted to. Why? Because she didn't wait, she didn't speculate, she didn't worry about whether or not it was a "mistake" to shoot on 1080p.

Screw speculation and rumors. Get off your **** and do something instead. The tools that are available today are good enough, if you are. And if you're not -- there ain't nothing that a new tool is going to do to change that.

The ONLY camera that counts, is the one you can use RIGHT NOW to make something happen.

^ This. In spades.

I shoot short films with my friends. We do it for fun, for contests, etc. Of all the decisions we make while puttng a film together - scripts, actors, sets, locations - one of the last decisons we come to is what camera and format to use. Because camera selection is less important than getting a good story and good actors to tell our tale. Sure, I'd love an Alexa, but we work with what's available.
When I see some people on forums like these (and one website in particular, which shall go nameless) claiming they're waiting on producing their film until the Next Big Camera comes out, I can only shake my head in dismay. If they honestly believe a particular camera is going to make or break their grand vision, they are a sad lot, indeed.

[S. Matthews]

you are all stating the obvious, of course a future camera does not earn you money, but that does not mean it can not benefit a conversation of other technology by comparing the two as long as people understand the reality of when if ever the one will come out.

to put it bluntly and explain where I'm coming from, the jobs that I am shooting(corporate stuff), my DSLR's and my hd100u(don't get me started) cover me fine as most of what I am delivering is at SD dvd resolution anyways. I'm lucky because i am learning and taking my time, I already did the rush out and buy an expensive camera I had no use for at the time don't need to repeat that. So I am waiting until I hit that road block in my work where I'm asked for or I want more out of my camera. So while I wait I have been watching the progression of new camera's and discussing them with people and comparing the different benefits they each have. Nothing wrong with that at all, but apparently people seem to focus on an argument no one would make. Not saying this was addressed at me or anyone but it was brought up, who would say they have been making money off an unreleased camera? when if ever was that said in this thread?

as I said you can't just live in the now as the future is rapidly approaching every day, and if you are in a competitive market and you are not up on the new tech because of some BS emotional conection you could be left behind, or left wondering why the hell don't people want to hire you and your camera any more. Might not be as drastic as that but to be in an industry and not pay attention to what is coming out next is just foolish. And not being able to have a conversation about it because you don't like the company or whatever is just plain childish.

thing is people seem to be preaching the same old things about red as all the while red has been getting work done and as they are finally pumping out new camera's people continue with the same old tune, honestly if there ever was a time to have a conversation about these products it is now, the MX sensor is in red's all over the world, epic footage is available, the camera's (especially epic-s) share a lot of features and IQ, so how is comparing the epic-s or rather the epic/mx performance to things of today, all the while understanding it is not the epic-s but somewhere in the ballpark of performance. there is a conversation about technology in there, this is what I'm saying you would have to be a stubborn person to not have that conversation due to whatever it was the put you over the edge with red. it's the whole MAC/pc thing how did people get to such hatred for another company? people are unusual when they have most things going good and nothing really to complain about they start finding conflict where there should be none.

as a final note I'm a supporter of fair and balanced discussions, not one company not one camera, and not my way of thinking many people have and will continue to mold my views on this world through wonderful conversation and discussions. I was intrigued by red when I was younger by the way they ran, that has now bit them in the ass and peoples reaction were understandable but seems a little over done at this point. As I said I'm just looking at everything coming out for the time being, I really like the F3 and the NXCAM is very interesting, I might not ever buy a red who knows.

as I have said before we all benefit from the wide array of camera's, many of us have different needs and these vastly different cameras will allow us to easily cover these area's. the more competition the more camera's the more we talk about future features we really need, the better things will get for us the shooter.

af100 has made a lot of people happy, so will the F3, so will the NXCAM, and so will the new red camera's, and the new canon, Nikon, Arri, Panasonic, Sony, red(lets be honest the next product cycle will most likely be a little different than the big boys), cannon, Nikon, etc....

Make all the points you want about this imaginary scenario where a person sits on their hands waiting for this camera while doing nothing that person does not exist and if they did, even if they had a camera it would likely not make a difference. far to many assumptions about people you can't possibly know, worry about yourself instead of assuming why another person you do not know is doing something because without knowing them you are most likely wrong.

please make DVXUSER a source for unbiased and accurate information and discussion!

[JWVaricam]

I thnik you're giving Red a little too much credit. I just don't see Sony, Panasonic and Arri execs nervously chewing their fingernails while scanning the reduser.com forums..
I think you're missing the point of my earlier post - or maybe I'm just not getting my words out right... I said "Thank Red's rumors/spectulation for helping push forward all of these other great cameras that have started arriving or are on the horizon..." I'm talking about all the chatter about Red over the last 4-5 years. Red didn't deliver in a timely fashion, thereby creating an opportunity for these other companies to capitalize on the interest. I'm sure Sony, Panasonic and others are thrilled with what transpired, and are now taking advantage with their new products. Rumors/speculation are helping me to see what's on the horizon in new equipment. I love my P2 2700 Varicam for the kind of work I do. I carry it on the plane wherever I go - would never check it. I am also able to carry on a 7D. I would like to replace the 7D with something of similar size, and the NXCAM S35 is looking awful nice for that spot in my carry-on. So I'll be looking at every tidbit of rumor and speculation in the coming weeks/months.

[pulpfiction007]

Just because people speculate on future cameras does not mean they're not shooting on something else at the same time. I totally and completely disagree with the belief by many on this site that there is zero point in discussing what advances may occur/future cameras - it's an interesting topic...period. I do agree that comparing Camera X- that exists to Camera Y that has not been built is a pointless debate. Also a lot of people complaining about others speculating/waiting for a new camera did plenty of the same themselves with the AF100. - Constantly being told what is a valid discussion and what isn't, is completely ludicrous.

Oh and by the way...it was speculation/dreaming that caused one of OUR members to basically do a mock-up of the AF100 before it EVER existed....

[vanvideo]

OK, back on topic - the NXCAM, right?

I'm still trying to get a mental image of the viewfinder. It's on the top, but can be flipped out. OK, like a Canon XH A1. But then, you can attach a viewfinder to it, like a Hasselblad. I'm not following this. Does this mean the monitor is always exposed, aiming upward? Is it like an EX3 EVF/ monitor, where you can raise the eyepiece and see the large monitor? In this case, the monitor is flat on the top - but it also flips out? I gotta see this.

[Jay Birch]

nothing wrong at all with chatting about what might come.... I don't shoot my next project until June.... so there is no way in the world I will buy/rent until around that time, at which point I will weight up what is on the market and make my decision (alot of the info I will already have gathered from talking about newly released/soon to be released cameras on here and other forums).

I think the only thing that gets people going crazy is when you have someone say "why waste money on that camera when X will be out in Z months and cost Y"..... when "X" could be years away and actually called a "K" and cost $GOD KNOWS. ;-)

[Viddovation]

I think it's unavoidable as DPs and Camera Operators that many of us are going to geek out on what the future holds in store for our craft. Within that context I don't mind the speculation, discussion, and wish-listing that happens on these boards.

For those of us who understand that the conversation is - by it's very nature - a hypothetical one, that is subject to change and misinformation, not a problem.

What is, however, unfortunate, is the way in which unreleased, even hypothetical, cameras and camera equipment end up becoming part of the conversation for those in our industry who are planning actual shoots that ultimately need to be shot with actual, released equipment. That means our Producer colleagues for instance. Well, you say - we're planning a feature shoot for next spring, and camera X is supposed to be released by then, and it would be perfect for that project, and it's the right pricepoint, etc. etc.

So you build the budget and production schedule with a certain set of unreleased equipment, what do you do when that equipment doesn't materialize in time for the production schedule?

I'd rather schedule shoots around proven, available equipment, with documented and fully tested work flows than around equipment that may or may not materialize in the manner desired, if at all. If, as we near the production date new tools have become readily available in the same pricerange - than by all means, reassess. But don't go planning work around equipment you have no way to know will be available.

[Lee Saxon]

Sorry my Epic-S comment pulled this thread so off topic lol

Guess there's not really any new NXCAM news to discuss...hope that will change soon

[Sam Scoggins]

Sony marketing were very clever to announce NXCAM S35 so early - it has no doubt caused many who might have bought the af100 to wait and see.

[Duke M.]

That sounds too similar to Red. It will only be clever if Sony delivers a good S35 NXCAM unlike the now vaporware S35 Scarlet. (And yes I know about the Epic-S, but its really a new camera, new innards, new features, etc. Only the sensor size is the same.)

[Jay Birch]

Wasn't the AF100 about 9 months from early announcements to shipping.... sounds like the NX will follow a similar timeline.

I'm sure there is a little bit of "dangling the carrot" going on with each company.... but at least they tend to deliver.

[kurth]

Well, the disaster in Japan might affect when we´ll see this camera . Reports are that Sony isn´t too affected but the whole country will be reevaluating priorities ...sad to say.

[pulpfiction007]

Well, the disaster in Japan might affect when we´ll see this camera . Reports are that Sony isn´t too affected but the whole country will be reevaluating priorities ...sad to say.

I agree. A disaster of this magnitude will have far reaching implications for shipping, production, etc. Even when a company's infrastructure has not been hit, the ripple effect will no doubt have further consequences for many Japanese based companies and beyond. I live in Montana- and when tragedy struck New Orleans, it only took about two weeks for us to start seeing shortages from companies based in or around that area.

On a sidenote: Let us all wish the best for Japan and it's people during this terrible tragedy.

[Gabrobot]

That sounds too similar to Red. It will only be clever if Sony delivers a good S35 NXCAM unlike the now vaporware S35 Scarlet. (And yes I know about the Epic-S, but its really a new camera, new innards, new features, etc. Only the sensor size is the same.)

Scarlet S35 was always Epic with fewer processing boards. Epic-S just added one of them back in and moved it to Epic's production line.

[Viddovation]

But part of the difference between Sony and RED is that Sony sets out a design specification, then works towards producing that specific camera model. Even if research and development makes strides forward, Sony & Panasonic aren't likely to stop midstream, and add new features to a camera model that's already in progress. They'll finish up the first camera, get it to market on schedule, then go back to the drawing board and work the next camera design with whatever research and development has produced in the interim.

By contrast, at least in part RED has been slowed down in bringing Scarlet and EPIC to market because they've chosen to continue to revise and upgrade design specifications, without releasing the interim design variations. It's a tradeoff - and since RED doesn't have the same manufacturing capacity as Panasonic and Sony I'm not trying to speculate on whether or not it's the right strategy.

What I can say as an end user is that the only cameras that matter are the ones I can actually buy or rent today. It's great to know better gear is in the pipeline, but I'm going to always have the most appreciation for companies that bring good cameras to market.

[Duke M.]

Scarlet S35 was always Epic with fewer processing boards. Epic-S just added one of them back in and moved it to Epic's production line.

Several processing boards less, different software, some different switches, etc.

That's kind of like saying a T2i is the same as a 7D even though the 7D has two Digic processors, and a host of other features while the T2i only has one processor. The T2i isn't a bad camera but even hacked there are things the 7D can do that the T2i (shooting RAW and leveling come to mind) can't and they are a lot closer than a Scarlet and Epic-S.


Or that a Corvette is the same as Cavalier because they share a lot of Chevy parts. Nobody cares if some hoses, the windshield wiper tank or master cylinder are the same. They both roll on 4 wheels, but they aren't from the same line of cars.


The Epic shares some components, but some components are shared with the entire Scarlet line. Its an economy of scale, nothing else.

[Sam Scoggins]

Someone shooting with FS100 NXCAM S35 with pictures of top mounted LCD?
http://cinescopophilia.com/?p=5194

[Gabrobot]

Several processing boards less, different software, some different switches, etc.

That's kind of like saying a T2i is the same as a 7D even though the 7D has two Digic processors, and a host of other features while the T2i only has one processor. The T2i isn't a bad camera but even hacked there are things the 7D can do that the T2i (shooting RAW and leveling come to mind) can't and they are a lot closer than a Scarlet and Epic-S.

The only difference between Epic and the Scarlet S35 were framerates and compression ability. Now with Epic-S it's only framerates that are different. The cameras are probably more similar than the 7d and the t2i are similar to each other.


Someone shooting with FS100 NXCAM S35 with pictures of top mounted LCD?
http://cinescopophilia.com/?p=5194

Footage looks good...if it's really about as good as the F3 IQ-wise, then the AF100 has some stiff competition.

[Sam Scoggins]

I don't think they are claiming that video is from the camera - just that is the artist they are shooting with.

What interested me was this:

31387

[hunter richards]

looks like the same lcd from the little NX5- probably has the same style mechanism.

http://photorumors.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Sony-NX-3-3.jpg

[Andrew Stone]

Only 10 more days till the speculation ends.

[Duke M.]

Only 10 more days till the speculation ends.

Yeah. Someone here said the 21st, but I remember that article from Japan saying the 23rd for the pictures and specs. But then someone needs to test the darn things thoroughly. The 5D and 7D taught me to distrust advertising, hype and spec sheets.

[Fohdeesha]

no ND filter position indicator :( and that's an hdmi cable going to the dp6, not an sdi :( perhaps he just has the hdmi version of the monitor

also, wonder what gps/mal is?

http://cinescopophilia.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Dens_SmallHD.jpg

onboard gps? lol

[Danielvilliers]

The sony lens I think is a good teaser, good images. The package size seems small with the laptop behind. Just hope it has the 10 bit output and it is the indie revolutionary camera the shooter has been saying.

[Tim Le]

also, wonder what gps/mal is?

onboard gps? lol

Looks like it does. In the other pics it says "No GPS signal" and in one pic it has the satellite icon like in their Cybershot still cameras.

All is not loss with the ND indicator just yet...on the EX3 there is no indicator if the ND is off.

[Duke M.]

The package size seems small with the laptop behind.

That's the body only in that bubble wrap, so it isn't all that small unless there is tons of bubble wrap on it, which is possible.

[brunerww]

I don't think they are claiming that video is from the camera - just that is the artist they are shooting with.

Pretty sure that the video is from the camera -- same artist in the monitor pix and the video?

What's most impressive to me is that some of the scenes seem to be lit solely with a 150W Dedolight (http://www.adorama.com/DODLH1X150S.html?kbid=66297).

Looking at the BTS pics taken during the low-light parts of the shoot here (http://yfrog.com/gyhy2lkj) and here (http://yfrog.com/gynwnugj) (lit with the Dedolight), I agree with Philip Johnston over at HD Warrior (http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2011/03/14/f3-first-play-in-low-light/), who said recently of the F3 (same sensor):


You could produce a drama in street lighting and tell the Gaffer to take a night off

Sorry Panasonic, but they had me at the word "35mm".

I thought that the next step up from my GH2 would be the AF100. Looks like I might have been wrong, the next step up may very well be a Sony. Time to start looking for a Micro 4/3 to E Mount adapter?

[vanvideo]

I suspect we'll be seeing a lot of E-mount adaptors coming out soon.

Here's a micro 4/3, but there's no indication who built it:

http://sonyalphanex.blogspot.com/2010/11/sony-nex-micro-four-thirds-lens-adapter.html

[kurth]

also sony gave away the nexmount specs so we´ll see lenses from sigma, tokina, tamron etc

[dop16mm]

Is it just me, or is there a suspicious amount of overscan on the small-Hd screen shot. There is less on the screen than would be on the camera's monitor. The up side of this system is the availability of modern lenses with electronic aperture control. All your favorite dslr lenses, tokina 11-16, tamron 17-50, sigma etc. are all available in native sony a-mount which are only an adapter away from full function. Now this doesn't help canon users already invested in lenses, but if you are building your system from scratch it is a viable option. This is to me is the biggest stumble for panasonic and m4/3. The only decent modern glass is from olympus, and not that many options. I have a couple of good old nikons that would be the starting point of either system, but not enough to avoind buying lenses.

[Jay Birch]

Pretty sure that the video is from the camera -- same artist in the monitor pix and the video?

My assumption was that they are using the new camera to shoot a video of that artist over the next few days... then linked to a previous video of the artist to show who they meant.

[lexicon]

My assumption was that they are using the new camera to shoot a video of that artist over the next few days... then linked to a previous video of the artist to show who they meant.

yes, and that video has all the signature (look) of having been shot with a DSLR (Canon 5D, 7D, Lumix GH1/2?), maybe AF 100?. It doesn't have the signature of the F3 sensor.

[Oscar Studio]

creativevideo in uk has changed the status of the new NXCAM S35 from coming soon to Expected: 02/05/2011

[pulpfiction007]

creativevideo in uk has changed the status of the new NXCAM S35 from coming soon to Expected: 02/05/2011

Really? They're expecting it last month?- I assume it should read 05/02/2011. That's still pretty darn fast! Hope it pans out that way.

[Max Smith]

Really? They're expecting it last month?- I assume it should read 05/02/2011. That's still pretty darn fast! Hope it pans out that way.

It's been a few years since I've done business over there but I think they do day/month/year instead of month/day/year.

[Oscar Studio]

It's been a few years since I've done business over there but I think they do day/month/year instead of month/day/year.

correct , this is how they do it in Europe, DAY/MONTH/YEAR

[vanvideo]

I searched the creativevideo website and didn't see anything. Got a link?

[Oscar Studio]

I searched the creativevideo website and didn't see anything. Got a link?


http://www.creativevideo.co.uk/index.php?t=product/sony_hxr-nx35e

[vanvideo]

According to creativevideo, the NXCAM-Whatever will have uncompressed 10-bit 4:2:2 HD/SDI OR HDMI output. As far as I know, you can only export 8-bit through an HDMI. There is no camera available that exports 10-bit HDMI.

[kurth]

these folks are just guessing .... maybe intelligent guesses but no more - 23rd is not far away

[brunerww]

yes, and that video has all the signature (look) of having been shot with a DSLR (Canon 5D, 7D, Lumix GH1/2?), maybe AF 100?. It doesn't have the signature of the F3 sensor.

You're both right. Looks like I'll have to change the title of my (premature) blog post. (http://hybridcamerarevolution.blogspot.com/2011/03/video-shot-with-new-sony-super-35mm.html):embarasse

[Oscar Studio]

PMW-F3 & NXCAM Super 35mm Event - NYC March 31st


http://super35.eventbrite.com/

[Danielvilliers]

Some screen grab on the twitter account of the guy using the mysterious camera http://twitter.com/DenLennie

[Richard J]

What are the chances of my Nikon lenses being compatible with this upcoming "budget" S35 sony camera? I have a collection of nikon glass from old manual 70's primes to modern fully auto fast zooms.

In terms of covering the sensor, since all my lenses are for 35mm film or full frame digital sensors it seems like they by design could be compatible (but I don't know if on digital film cameras they recess the sensor further or less far back from the mount). The lenses are also all pretty sharp edge to edge on a 16 megapixel digital stills camera so I would think the resolution would be up to par...

So it seems like with a mount adapter (either Sony or 3r'd party) these lenses "could" work. Maybe not with autofocus or electronic aperture control but workable. (and all my lenses have a physical aperture ring)

Is my logic sound in regards to compatibility? Should sharp manual primes from the 70's be sharp on a digital film camera with a s35 sensor?

[pulpfiction007]

What are the chances of my Nikon lenses being compatible with this upcoming "budget" S35 sony camera? I have a collection of nikon glass from old manual 70's primes to modern fully auto fast zooms.

In terms of covering the sensor, since all my lenses are for 35mm film or full frame digital sensors it seems like they by design could be compatible (but I don't know if on digital film cameras they recess the sensor further or less far back from the mount). The lenses are also all pretty sharp edge to edge on a 16 megapixel digital stills camera so I would think the resolution would be up to par...

So it seems like with a mount adapter (either Sony or 3r'd party) these lenses "could" work. Maybe not with autofocus or electronic aperture control but workable. (and all my lenses have a physical aperture ring)

Is my logic sound in regards to compatibility? Should sharp manual primes from the 70's be sharp on a digital film camera with a s35 sensor?

Vintage stills lenses are popular choices around here for video (many prefer them) and I'm sure adapters are or will be available for mounting.

[kurth]

just go to dpreview / nex forum

[brunerww]

What are the chances of my Nikon lenses being compatible with this upcoming "budget" S35 sony camera? I have a collection of nikon glass from old manual 70's primes to modern fully auto fast zooms.

In terms of covering the sensor, since all my lenses are for 35mm film or full frame digital sensors it seems like they by design could be compatible (but I don't know if on digital film cameras they recess the sensor further or less far back from the mount). The lenses are also all pretty sharp edge to edge on a 16 megapixel digital stills camera so I would think the resolution would be up to par...

So it seems like with a mount adapter (either Sony or 3r'd party) these lenses "could" work. Maybe not with autofocus or electronic aperture control but workable. (and all my lenses have a physical aperture ring)

Is my logic sound in regards to compatibility? Should sharp manual primes from the 70's be sharp on a digital film camera with a s35 sensor?

Your lenses should work just fine with a Nikon to E-Mount (NEX) adapter. You can spend as little as $30 for one like this (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B003X1FSCS/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=battleforthew-20&linkCode=as2&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B003X1FSCS) from Cowboy Studio, or as much as $293 for one like this (http://www.adorama.com/NVNEXNIK.html?kbid=66297) from Novoflex.

[Lee Saxon]

Do not buy cheap lens adapters. They do not achieve a tight fit. I had a Fotodiox to use Nikon lenses on my GH2 and it was so loose and wiggly that moving the follow focus would WILDLY reframe my shot. Never got a chance to see if the Novoflex was actually worth the extra money because I wised up and traded the GH2 in for a D7000 (still not what I'd call a sturdy camera, but it's a Hasselblad compared to the ridiculous GH2).

[hunter richards]

Ill stand up and say some cheap adapters are really good and have no play at all, but you may have to buy a few to find a good one.
For example my first nikon->m43 adapter had play on both sides of the mount, my new nikon "G" adapter has no play at all- both were about $30 on ebay. (surprisingly the "good" one is from rainbow imaging)

[brunerww]

Do not buy cheap lens adapters. They do not achieve a tight fit. I had a Fotodiox to use Nikon lenses on my GH2 and it was so loose and wiggly that moving the follow focus would WILDLY reframe my shot. Never got a chance to see if the Novoflex was actually worth the extra money because I wised up and traded the GH2 in for a D7000 (still not what I'd call a sturdy camera, but it's a Hasselblad compared to the ridiculous GH2).

Sorry you had a bad experience, Lee, but I agree with Hunter. There are good $30 adapters and bad $30 adapters. My inexpensive Chinese Nikon G to micro 4/3 adapter creates a very solid fit between my Nikon glass and my GH2. There is zero "play" between the lens, adapter and camera when I focus, zoom, or change apertures. So I'm a little confused by your solution to the problem. How does a poorly made adapter make the camera "ridiculous"? Or was there another problem with the camera, in your view?

[Lee Saxon]

I kinda figured these random eBay lens adapters would be WORSE than the one I bought which was at least from a brand anybody had ever heard of. Guess I just have bad luck haha.


So I'm a little confused by your solution to the problem. How does a poorly made adapter make the camera "ridiculous"? Or was there another problem with the camera, in your view?

Oh no, that was a separate thought. I just decided the GH2 was wayyyyyy too light and flimsy for my taste. The D7000 isn't a huge amount better, but I can work with it. But I shot with a D2x for years and find even my D700 a little under-built sometimes (CF card door especially) so no one should go by my opinion.

Anyway sorry for going off-topic.

[LuckyStudio 13]

With thw situation in Japan, i dont think i be shooting a feature film this summer with the nxcam :(

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/115354

[kurth]

maybe part 3

[vanvideo]

I've been wondering about the E-mount on the NXCAM S35...

I currently own the VG10. Both of the cameras will share the same lens mount, so the Sony 18-200 lens on my camera will work on the NXCAM.
But, how does this work? The VG10 has a smaller APS-sized sensor. How much different will it be from a Super 35 frame?

[Barry_Green]

I've been wondering about the E-mount on the NXCAM S35...

I currently own the VG10. Both of the cameras will share the same lens mount, so the Sony 18-200 lens on my camera will work on the NXCAM.
But, how does this work? The VG10 has a smaller APS-sized sensor. How much different will it be from a Super 35 frame?

Marginally, if at all. APS-C is 22mm wide. Super35 is 24.9mm wide. The F3's sensor is 23.6mm wide. In other words, it's a minimal differernce.

[vanvideo]

Marginally, if at all. APS-C is 22mm wide. Super35 is 24.9mm wide. The F3's sensor is 23.6mm wide. In other words, it's a minimal differernce.

I thought the F3's sensor was considered to be Super 35? Just a tad smaller, I guess.

[Barry_Green]

I thought the F3's sensor was considered to be Super 35? Just a tad smaller, I guess.

They call it Super35, but it's smaller than the actual film Super35 size. As is the Red One and most of these cameras. I think on Abel's chart the Red Epic is about the only one that actually is or exceeds the size of S35.

[vanvideo]

Thanks, Barry. You are, as usual, a wealth of knowledge.
Now, if only we can get you to work on this economy....

[glnf]

They call it Super35, but it's smaller than the actual film Super35 size. As is the Red One and most of these cameras. I think on Abel's chart the Red Epic is about the only one that actually is or exceeds the size of S35.

It's off topic but since we started: Film is always masked when projected in the cinema. So we usually don't see the full frame. By the way, super 35 is not a distribution format, but that doesn't matter in this respect. The cropping as well explains, why sometimes a boom is very obviously in shot. This is often caused by a wrong masking of the frame in the cinema.

[brunerww]

The E mount has a shallow flange distance similar to micro 4/3's so it is certainlly possible. Someone will probobaly make one eventually.

I have seen several PL to E mount adapters on eBay for the little NEX cameras. This (http://cgi.ebay.com/ARRI-ARRIFLEX-PL-SONY-NEX-E-MOUNT-/320669609949?pt=Lens_Accessories&hash=item4aa965efdd#ht_1100wt_1143) one from Taiwan is $156 (shipping included).

[LuckyStudio 13]

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/ag-af100_and_pmw-f3_on_the_charts/

[kurth]

reading between the lines....no pun intended ....the gh series are by far the best deal and I find it hard to believe that high bitrate mpeg from a hacked gh1 didn´t perform better( he relates his experience of his gh1 to the af100 performance) ...from the samples I´ve seen - as I said ...reading between the lines - can hardly wait for the fs100 is added to the mix

[Danielvilliers]

What is good is that the base F3 without slog is already at 12 stop of dynamic range, which bodes well for the NXCAM because we won't have s-log. I think the test was made with the standard codec, so perhaps we could get even better dynamic range from a clean HDSDI or HDMI output.

He is saying that with certain gama he is seeing an hint of another stop, perhaps with a cleaner signal we could get 13 stops. That would be extraordinary if tomorrow we could se a 12 - 13 stop dynamic range camera in the $ 6000 range. If the NXCAM/FS100 shares the same image characteristic with its bigger brother it will be a real revolution and will overshadow the AF-100.

[Nate Weaver]

What is good is that the base F3 without slog is already at 12 stop of dynamic range

It is? It sure doesn't seem like it's recording that much in Cinegamma.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Then again.... http://www.poptent.net/uploads/202980/43132/1/1138-mov.mp4

Af100 with Zeiss ZF

[kurth]

yea Lucky ....point well made !

[Danielvilliers]

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/ag-af100_and_pmw-f3_on_the_charts/

If you read the article above you will see that it is not me who is saying that. Provideocoalition has for me the best set of test on the different high end cameras on the internet. You will see test of the Alexa, Red MX, 5d, etc on there site and the methodology which is for now considered to be the most accurate system (back-lite graduated chart). I saw this more subjective test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5la6uOumhM

One thing it shows is that F3 sensor is more the type that you can extract a lot from the shadows to get the most of the dynamic range.

[Danielvilliers]

So only 2 more days of waiting left...

[vanvideo]

Tomorrow's the day...

I don't know why I am so psyched about this camera. We know next to nothing about it, but I've been watching the calendar for the arrival of March 23rd for weeks.

[glnf]

Isn't it already the 23. in Japan?

[Babu]

Yeah approx 7:30am, embargo must be on US timing :/

[pulpfiction007]

Tomorrow's the day...

I don't know why I am so psyched about this camera. We know next to nothing about it, but I've been watching the calendar for the arrival of March 23rd for weeks.

I relate to this ...I've never been so interested in a camera where the specs are so uncertain. I followed the AF100 quite a bit but we had so much info from Jan and Barry and others, that it was more of a known quantity. I'm also excited about NAB this year, because Panasonic has quite a few cameras that seem to be ready for updates (at the very least).

I think the excitement about the Sony....is that the one thing we do know is enough to warrant it - the sensor is incredible. That coupled with the onboard codec being better than the F3's....makes me wonder - What will Sony leave out? Will they give it the 10bit output? Or is that where they cut? Or will they just cut the extensive picture parameters, physical controls, etc.
I guess it won't be too long now for the answers.
By the time I get home tomorrow, there will probably be a 25 page thread on it already!

[Sumfun]

....makes me wonder - What will Sony leave out? Will they give it the 10bit output? Or is that where they cut? Or will they just cut the extensive picture parameters, physical controls, etc.


That's what I'm wondering, too. An S35 sensor with 12 stops DR for ~$6k. They have to cripple it somehow. :beer:

[Danielvilliers]

Yeah approx 7:30am, embargo must be on US timing :/

I don't think it will be us time because it is going to be too late for most of the world. It might be more GMT time. We usually see details coming earlier from the European subsidiaries. I thought there was earlier news from Sony Uk the last time for the F3

[LuckyStudio 13]

either way, being able to shoot with a cam with S35 sensor to 4:4:4 uncompressed (Gemini) S-Log under $25k (F3) is just a DREAM ! I thought I had to wait for another 15 years to reach that. The F3 is essentially the poor man's Sony F35 that costs more than a house.

[metalalien]

Surely in the next 6 hours someone will be posting pics at least right?

[timbook2]

you do realize that Japan has a major catastrophy? Do you really expect Sony to go "business as usual"? Prices will rise 4 sure!

[metalalien]

you do realize that Japan has a major catastrophy? Do you really expect Sony to go "business as usual"? Prices will rise 4 sure!

The pictures are already out there.... they just haven't posted them because of the NDA. Someone has got to post one!

[avro]

The pictures are already out there.... they just haven't posted them because of the NDA. Someone has got to post one!

NO SDI, Ex-3 kind of VF, manual buttons on body etc..........

[Everts]

Form their facebook feed in 3-4 hours check out crewstv' s website

[metalalien]

NO SDI, Ex-3 kind of VF, manual buttons on body etc..........


that picture looks a lot like a sentence.. LOL

[Lee Saxon]

An S35 sensor with 12 stops DR for ~$6k. They have to cripple it somehow. :beer:

If only this was a joke...

[avro]

Originally Posted by Sumfun
An S35 sensor with 12 stops DR for ~$6k. They have to cripple it somehow.
If only this was a joke...

You only get 12 stops with S-log

[vanvideo]

Here's a teaser:

http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/

[metalalien]

Originally Posted by Sumfun
An S35 sensor with 12 stops DR for ~$6k. They have to cripple it somehow.
If only this was a joke...

You only get 12 stops with S-log


These guys claim 12 stops even without S-log.

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/awilt/story/ag-af100_and_pmw-f3_on_the_charts/

[Everts]

Here's a teaser:

http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/

that's the F3 and the AF100

[vanvideo]

that's the F3 and the AF100

No, it clearly says
New Sony Super 35mm NXCAM camcorder (http://www.hdwarrior.co.uk/2011/03/23/new-sony-super-35mm-nxcam-camcorder/)

I said it was a teaser, not the actual pic. Not yet, anyway.

[Everts]

ok it does but ....it doesnt show anything !

[pulpfiction007]

ok it does but ....it doesnt show anything !

I know right.... In the voice of Kevin Kline from a Fish Called Wanda -" DISAPPOINTED!"

[Fohdeesha]

Originally Posted by Sumfun
An S35 sensor with 12 stops DR for ~$6k. They have to cripple it somehow.
If only this was a joke...

You only get 12 stops with S-log

Adam Wilt tested the f3 with a backlit DSC chart, and it showed a solid 12 stops right to xdcam. he pointed out he could see a hint of a 13th stop creeping out in the blacks, but the extra information was "hard to quantify"

[vanvideo]

I know right.... In the voice of Kevin Kline from a Fish Called Wanda -" DISAPPOINTED!"

Well, sure....it is a tease. But keep your eye on the site. No telling who's gonna have the first pics up, but HD Warrior probably will be one of the first.

[avro]

Saw picture of nxcam 35hd 2 nights ago. Looks sexy to me. Like i mentioned before: no sdi, ex3 VF and nice handle with mike holder. I was told by Sony product manager F3 can only do 12 stops with S-log only....so who knows. Find F3 better in low light then 5D but 5d looks better in highlites without S-log and external recorder. I sure now NXCAM hd35 will be perfect for me.

[pulpfiction007]

Well, sure....it is a tease. But keep your eye on the site. No telling who's gonna have the first pics up, but HD Warrior probably will be one of the first.

Yeah...I know. I wasn't actually expecting much from a tease...it's just kind of funny- we've all been looking at that same picture from Sony forever, and the camera probably looks a lot different now. Thanks for the info for sure, though. I will be watching them.

[Babu]

Saw picture of nxcam 35hd 2 nights ago. Looks sexy to me. Like i mentioned before: no sdi, ex3 VF and nice handle with mike holder. I was told by Sony product manager F3 can only do 12 stops with S-log only....
Did you see a ND-Filter switch?

[avro]

Did you see a ND-Filter switch?
No I did not-but there is lots of buttons on side...so who knows...
perhaps there is some new way of doing it instead of wheel:cheesy:

[Babu]

very true. We'll see in 20 minutes.

[vanvideo]

Saw picture of nxcam 35hd 2 nights ago. Looks sexy to me. Like i mentioned before: no sdi, ex3 VF and nice handle with mike holder. I was told by Sony product manager F3 can only do 12 stops with S-log only....so who knows. Find F3 better in low light then 5D but 5d looks better in highlites without S-log and external recorder. I sure now NXCAM hd35 will be perfect for me.

Avro, did you see the handgrip? If so, was it like an EX1? Or a Hasselblad? The VG10?

[avro]

It does have TOP Handle with holder for external mike......it also has XLR input in handle too-i think...it looks solid built to me..

[Oscar Studio]

6:45 morning here 23 of 03 of 2011, i didnt sleep all night to see this............. bring the pictures and details!!! :)))))

[avro]

EX3 kind of VF sits on top of camera boxy body...it is not on side-right in the middle...Top handle is more forward on top of zoom

[vanvideo]

EX3 kind of VF sits on top of camera boxy body...it is not on side-right in the middle...Top handle is more forward on top of zoom

Well, it's supposed to have a removable side handle as well.

[Danielvilliers]

News here http://crews.tv/blog/2011/03/22/sony-fs-100-enters/

[Kholi]

Looks like a nice little form factor... time to own again!?

I'm gonna guess CAnon's never gonna drop a Full Frame camera of the same form factor, so looks like Sony's NX Cam is a good option.

[Richard J]

I'm liking what I see so far. I have a pretty solid set of old Nikon primes that would fit the bill for most my work (and I believe they all take 52mm filters so picking up a couple ND filters would not be that big a deal).

Any word on if the hdmi signal out is 10 bit? If I can record pro res 422 hq into an Atomos Ninja with 10 bits of sample depth this will probably encourage me to put my HMC-150 on the market...After I've seen some footage of course.

[Danielvilliers]

This is the big question mark. If it is only 8 bit I will be really disappointed, having a sensor like the f3 in there with just 8 bit would be really crippling its possibilities.

[robur]

The brochure:
http://www.sony.co.uk/res/attachment/file/59/1237480643259.pdf

[LuckyStudio 13]

Hdmi output uncompressed 4:2:2 with embeded timecode More specs here http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-nxcamsite/cat-broadcastcameras/product-NEXFS100U/

[dcloud]

based on nigel coopers review, it really looks like a rushed camcorder.

[LuckyStudio 13]

The only saving grace is if the hdmi out is 10bit. Otherwise i am just gonna leave the spectators and move on.

[Shipsides]

Stay tuned for a video on our blog this afternoon.

Andy

[Babu]

The only saving grace is if the hdmi out is 10bit. Otherwise i am just gonna leave the spectators and move on.Nigel said in his review the FS100 HDMI is 8bit and not 10bit.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Nigel said in his review the FS100 HDMI is 8bit and not 10bit.

Once again, Sony blew a big chance with the No budget Indie market, guess they really want u to fork out $13k for tht cine alta f3.

[Rick Burnett]

I'm liking what I am reading on this thing! For me specifically, the pluses are:

+ 2x Zoom for focus
+ Simultaneous record to the flash drive AND the SD card
+ 2lb body weight
+ 510 Minute operation of fully charged battery (wonder if that includes LCD)

Minuses would be

- No SDI
- No path yet for EOS lenses with no manual aperature control
- No waveform I can see, but it does have histogram.
- HDMI connection. Not a fan of HMDI connection.

I cannot find anything that speaks of how the control work. Will have to wait and check the manual. I want to know how easy it is to change ISO settings. No mention of ND filter either. Looking at the way it is designed, I find it hard to believe it has ND built in.

[vanvideo]

No ND flters. Sony said the distance between the lens and sensor was too small. No ND filter wheel would fit.

[dcloud]

No ND flters. Sony said the distance between the lens and sensor was too small. No ND filter wheel would fit. i thought so. thats NEX for ya. designed for a compact body, and the big boys suffered

[Rick Burnett]

Yeah, just read Nigel Coopers review which was definitely NOT flattering. More resolution and less aliasing than the AF100, however, I've NEVER had a problem with either of those two things personally. Not having the ND wheel would certainly be hard to give up, not to mention the Waveform monitor. What is really shocking to me is the price, I don't understand it. It definitely has less features than the AF100, so I don't understand why so much more on list price.

I look forward to seeing the low light performance and dynamic range. It's like I want a Sosonic camera that has all the features I love in both the AF100 and FS100. :)

The other BIG question not answered is rolling shutter. I wonder how it compares as the AF100 shutter is VERY good.

Oh, and do you have to use the microphone? Does it have a built in one like the AF100? I find that having the small build in microphone is GREAT and out of the way when sound is being recorded separately.

[glnf]

This camera is a joke! I bet the picture quality is great and I don't mind so much the missing ND filters and the SDI out. Somehow Sony had to tune this product down. But the design is ridiculous. As if the camera was designed by the sales department together with a handful of gadget-loving nerds after a few drinks.

Over decades the general design of mid-sized semipro cameras has evolved and Sony released some truly great cameras in terms of handling and design (just remember the VX1000!). So why couldn't they stick to their own expertise and had to come up with this? As if they tried everything to make this camera look different and special, even at the cost of introducing flaws in the handling of the camera. It's a real shame for this technically highly advanced and fairly affordable camera.

[Barry_Green]

I think this product isn't what people were expecting. That won't make it inherently bad, but the disappointment seems to stem from people expecting it to be something that it (apparently) isn't.

If we use the HVX200 for comparison to the AF100, people wanted to see Sony's competitor, and everyone thinks of it as the EX1, but they forget -- first came the V7U. The V7U was priced to be a competitor to the HVX200/HPX170, and it was the first "real" 24p camcorder Sony made. But it didn't match up to what people expected, so it never really made an impact on us over here, and a year or so later the EX1 came out, and that was the "real" camera that people wanted.

So maybe this NEX is the "V7U" version. I'll admit, as soon as I heard it was in the NEX line, I lost 99% interest. And then the specs confirm that. It's not targeted at the AF100, or if it is targeted at the AF100 I think they missed the target pretty hard. The lack of fundamental pro features like the ND wheel and the HD-SDI make it look like it's probably aimed to be the top of the NEX line, but not in the same category or class as the F3 at all.

And they originally had said $6,000 and then later raised that to $7,000 -- which I think a lot of folks changed their expectations because hey, that's EX1 territory, so I think it was reasonable for us to expect that this cam would be on par with the EX1, which would make it a large-sensor EX1 as compared to the AF100's large-sensor HPX170. But it isn't, the actual pricing is $4500, which puts it at least a category, if not two categories, below the EX1. (meaning, if it's $4500 street, it's one category down, if it's $4500 MSRP it's two categories down).

It looks like it is more of an intermediate step between the DSLR and the AF100, than it is a true AF100 competitor. It looks more like it's the "V7U" class of camcorder rather than the "EX1" class.

That said, if Sony's patterns hold, then in about a year or 18 months we should see a real competitor.

[Sam Scoggins]

I think this product isn't what people were expecting. That won't make it inherently bad, but the disappointment seems to stem from people expecting it to be something that it (apparently) isn't.

If we use the HVX200 for comparison to the AF100, people wanted to see Sony's competitor, and everyone thinks of it as the EX1, but they forget -- first came the V7U. The V7U was priced to be a competitor to the HVX200/HPX170, and it was the first "real" 24p camcorder Sony made. But it didn't match up to what people expected, so it never really made an impact on us over here, and a year or so later the EX1 came out, and that was the "real" camera that people wanted.

So maybe this NEX is the "V7U" version. I'll admit, as soon as I heard it was in the NEX line, I lost 99% interest. And then the specs confirm that. It's not targeted at the AF100, or if it is targeted at the AF100 I think they missed the target pretty hard. The lack of fundamental pro features like the ND wheel and the HD-SDI make it look like it's probably aimed to be the top of the NEX line, but not in the same category or class as the F3 at all.

And they originally had said $6,000 and then later raised that to $7,000 -- which I think a lot of folks changed their expectations because hey, that's EX1 territory, so I think it was reasonable for us to expect that this cam would be on par with the EX1, which would make it a large-sensor EX1 as compared to the AF100's large-sensor HPX170. But it isn't, the actual pricing is $4500, which puts it at least a category, if not two categories, below the EX1.

It looks like it is more of an intermediate step between the DSLR and the AF100, than it is a true AF100 competitor. It looks more like it's the "V7U" class of camcorder rather than the "EX1" class.

That said, if Sony's patterns hold, then in about a year or 18 months we should see a real competitor.

Wishful thinking Mr Green. Resolution and DR look superior to AF100.

[Nasser]

NEX FS-100 Overview and First footage :

http://provideocoalition.com/index.php/freshdv/story/fs100_first_footage/

[LuckyStudio 13]

Sony needs to fire that british guy as their "customer consultant/liaison" and get real filmmakers there like Philip Bloom, Barry Green, Stu ...etc. the NXCAM S35 is a major FAIL in my* book.

[vanvideo]

I like the modular design. It's different, and that could be a good thing. Maybe it handholds better than the established norm for small cameras, we'll see. I still love the adjustable hand grip, it works great on the EX3 (too bad the rest of that camera is an ergonomic nightmare). That viewfinder is pretty cool looking.
Nigel had lots of issues with the physical design, but Dem did not. Somewhere between the two, I think we'll find a comfortable medium. That's why it's so important we reserve judgement until we can each get our hands on one and decide for ourselves if Sony hit the mark.

I understand the lack of an ND filter wheel. The mount was designed for the NEX cameras, not a video camera. It was never meant to have a filter wheel. I can tell you from owning a VG10, with the same lens, that you're really, really going to want an ND glass in front of that lens outdoors.
I do not understand the lack of an HD/SDI port. It wouldn't dissaude me from purchasing one, but it would be nice to have.

[Ericjurg]

This is obviously not the right forum for an unbiased opinion of this camera.

[Barry_Green]

This is obviously not the right forum for an unbiased opinion of this camera.
It's pretty difficult to ask anyone in this forum to have an opinion of any type on it, as nobody here has seen it, held it, or used it. If you want opinions about it, you can ask Philip Johnston or Nigel Cooper, as they're the only ones I know of who have actually used it and posted reviews on it.

[Dino]

Yes, there is a double standard at work here with the moderators. I'm not allowed to post a thread comparing the FS100 on the AF100 forum, "because the camera hasn't been released yet", but Barry, a moderator, can compare the FS100 to the AF100 and tear down the Sony camera on a Sony forum.

There are more filmmakers who have shot with and reviewed the FS100 than the two that Barry sites, such as Crews.TV, Den Lennie and Nino Leitner. For the record, I don't like the form factor, lack of ND filters and lack of HD-SDI on the FS100, but I'm not allowed to post a thread making comparisons on the Panasonic AF100 forum, so nevermind.

[LuckyStudio 13]

Nobody wanted the FS100 to work more than I do. I have a feature film to shoot early May and I am shopping for a camcorder. Before the initial release the FS100 looked oh so-so promising. But after everything is settled the FS100 is so underwhelming for a "Pro caliber" camera even vs the AF100.

[dustylense]

How about comparing, lets just wait and see what this camera will do with more footage. So far, it looks great. Are you AF100 lovers threatened by this camera? I will say this though. The big difference is this camera will auto focus way better than the AF100 ever will. The monitor on the top I feel is genius! You can view it from ANY angle on the camera. Touch screen controls, with what looks like all other controls on the BODY. E-mount has been opened up, so lots of lenses coming! This camera is why I have held off the AF100.
Last thing, it's just another tool.
I am one of the "fools" that bought the NEX-10. It has moire and aliasing yes. But the great thing about the NEX-10 is that I can look like a tourist with that camera. It auto focuses great. It's just limited to 30fps. If the NX100 addressed alias and moire, you bet this will a competitor to the AF100. I have a GH2, I like it, but feel limited to the lenses available. I have the 5dmk2 and have not shot much motion on it since the GH2. I have the HVX200 and will never sell it.
The real question is if there is one camera that does it all? NOPE!
Sorry Barry, but this camera WILL compete with the AF100. Now matter how you look at it.

[JWVaricam]

It looks like it is more of an intermediate step between the DSLR and the AF100, than it is a true AF100 competitor. It looks more like it's the "V7U" class of camcorder rather than the "EX1" class.



Easy does it, Barry. Remember the old Canon commercial "image is everything..."

[shorty15]

Wow, Im really surprised how much this camera is getting blasted on this forum but it is DVXuser after all. This camera is exactly what I am looking for and is a vast improvement over the DSLR workarounds we have been dealing with over the past few years.

Wow, big deal, no built in ND wheel.
Solution: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/676826-REG/Genus_GL_GNDF_82_82mm_ND_Neutral_Density.html
Problem solved

Sure, it would be nice to have a HD SDI but oh well. HDMI is fine and with a little gaff tape jerry rigging, the connection aint going anywhere.

I would like to emphasize that it has a S35 sensor with around 800ASA base sensitivity, Uncompressed 4:2:2 out (in 8 bit I know but the Panny is 8 bit as well), True 108060p, no of the 60i crap and a small Epic-like form factor. What else do you expect for around $5 grand?

That one review talked about the poor build quality. Well first, it is a prototype and if I remember correctly, early F3 reviews also mentioned less than up to par construction in prototype form and that is a $15,000 camera. In my opinion, Panny has also had better build quality but Sony is pretty good as well. Unless you are going spelunking with your camera, the build quality will most likely be fine for 99% of what people are going to be using these cameras for.

The Panny has some problems as well. Getting a good cinema-worthy wide angle lens is still a pain. I really like the modular design of the Sony which allows for more aftermarket flexibility.

The most important thing is the image quality and even the negative DVuser review said that the Sony had more resolution and less aliasing than the Panny. If the image quality is better and the price in pretty much the same between the two, I can put up with cheap buttons. In the end, it is the footage the counts.

[Barry_Green]

Yes, there is a double standard at work here with the moderators. I'm not allowed to post a thread comparing the FS100 on the AF100 forum, "because the camera hasn't been released yet", but Barry, a moderator, can compare the FS100 to the AF100 and tear down the Sony camera on a Sony forum.
Luis closed a "versus" thread. We're not big on "versus". He stated his reasons for why he did that.


There are more filmmakers who have shot with and reviewed the FS100 than the two that Barry sites, such as Crews.TV, Den Lennie and Nino Leitner. For the record, I don't like the form factor, lack of ND filters and lack of HD-SDI on the FS100, but I'm not allowed to post a thread making comparisons on the Panasonic AF100 forum, so nevermind.

Definitely talk about those who have actually used it and what they have to say. Luis closed a "versus" thread because those rarely lead to any productive discussion.

Where did I "tear down" the FS100? I said that it may not be the camera that people wanted it to be, that their expectations may not match up with what Sony's expectations of it were. Sony appears to have positioned it below the AF100 in their lineup, based on what it offers. I said the exact same kind of things about the earlier NEX's -- just because they may not match up with the specs that certain filmmakers wanted, didn't mean they were "bad products." If asking people to evaluate a product for what it is, rather than what they wish it was, constitutes "tearing it down" then ... heck, I'm guilty, sure. But I don't think that's what I was doing. I tried to look at what they had released, and where it fit in the market.

EDIT -- okay, I've seen two more posts calling me out by name, so -- to make it easier on all of you, I'll just avoid this entire section.

[shorty15]

I'm not quite sure why you keep saying that it is below the AF100. Based on what? The fact that it does not have an HDSDI and a built in ND filter? In the grand scheme of things, those are easy workarounds.

[Rick Burnett]

I fail to see this camera as ANYTHING like the Epic design AT ALL. I was honestly hoping it was MORE like the Epic design, with you know, actual functional modules. To me, it has about the same modularity as the AF100, but with a very strange EVF methodology (not that I mind).

I wanted an LCD screen that attached to the camera like the Epic, so I could put it near the front, near the back, on the side, wherever I wanted. I don't think their design is horrible to me at all, but it's not a modular LCD design.

Going away from that, the AF100 has a removable grip, and a removable handle, and a removable Mic holder, so really, both cameras are still *modular*

I've been waiting a long time for this camera to come out as well, and I am still excited by it, even as an AF100 user. That said, I'm not jumping on the praise bandwagon till some serious questions of my own are answered as well (and by bandwagon, I mean my full feelings on the camera). What is the rolling shutter performance? How is the codec on challenging scenes? Can I remote control Iris/Focus on lenses. What ISO ranges does the camera firmware support. What control do I really have over the image. I'm not saying these are good or bad, just that I want to know where this camera stands.

I too believe image quality and dynamic range are important, but hearing "Has the same sensor as the F3" doesn't mean the particular sensor is as good. As someone mentioned, CMOS chips are often binned by performance. It is very possible they have used CMOS sensors that fall out of the specs for the F3 in these cameras. Again, this is not saying it is a bad thing either. It could very well be amazing. I've seen the sample videos and I've seen just as good videos for almost EVERY camera from the manufacturer.

I am eager to see people start shooting with these when they ship. I cannot wait to see the results!

[Richard J]

I think some of the defensiveness on this thread is because Nigel Cooper's review appeared to go out of it's way to down talk the FS-100. When he tells you "Better buy that matte box and a stack of glass 4x4 ND filters in various stops if you ‘truly’ want to control depth-of-field" it sounds like he is trying to be negative. Yeah, you could spend $1000 to $1500 bucks and go that route or you could pick up a few ND filters on E-bay to screw them on your lenses. Or when he said "I kid you not, the white-balance set button is so small I had to use a ballpoint pen to engage it, and my fingers are relatively slim." Did you see the size of the white balance button on the pictures... I did, it seemed the size I would expect it to be... Then he goes on to talk about the quality of the buttons and how he had to look at the screen to see if he had engaged it... I personally can't think of a single time I've ever hit a white balance button and not looked at the screen to see the image correct for the balanced color temperature. It just seems like he was trying to use a lot of baloney arguments to trash talk it.

Also, subtle things like taking the pictures of the camera with the lens extended all the way gave it a kind of "cheap" look. And he did that in every picture of it. Or the sample "screen shots" aka crappy shot of a less than aesthetically pleasing lunch cafe with a couple people with their backs turned in a poorly composed scene where you can't tell what he was focusing on... The whole "review" struck me as kind of silly. It may be the worst camera Sony has ever made but I am going to wait till some people who's opinion I respect can play with it before I discount it. I too am more interested in the image than the form factor (but if Sony or someones test confirms 8 bits i'll be a little frustrated...) I still think whether I purchase the camera or not, it's good to have major brands competing with large sensor, interchangeable lens cameras in my price range. I can't wait for some creative people to really start to see how to squeeze the best images out of this camera.

P.S. I like having more buttons, even if they are a little smaller. I would prefer dedicated buttons to having to jump deep into software menu's for the most commonly used tasks. To each his own though.

[dustylense]

"EDIT -- okay, I've seen two more posts calling me out by name, so -- to make it easier on all of you, I'll just avoid this entire section."

Barry! Really? Again, let's just wait for more footage to develop.
I think we all can agree that the F3 is a class above the AF100. But you say that the FS100 is placed below the AF100? Let's just think that "IF" this camera shoots anything like the F3 (IF), than how could one say the FS100 is placed below the AF100? No ND's and what not does that to a camera? All cameras have a workaround, including the AF100, yes? I also think it's RETARDED to think a $5000 is expected to give you 4.4.4. color! You want 4.4.4. color, spend the money. This cam, just like the af-100 is a AVCHD cam, period! Sure, throw your external recorders on it for 4.2.2.. Or just wait for a Af200 with P2 that will cost $15,000. Both these cams are pointed at the PROSUMER market. ANybody remember the HOUSE episode shot on 5d? Looked great to me! Come on. They all have workarounds! I think most are too caught up with what the camera can and can't do. Unless you;re Peter Jackson, relax and just shoot with whatever camera suits your style and expectations. They ALL have limits for the price...

[Barry_Green]

Barry! Really?
Yes, really -- the emotional connection people develop to these products just makes it tedious. There are better things to do than worry about people getting all upset because I made an observation.


I think we all can agree that the F3 is a class above the AF100.
I have said that it is at least one class, if not two classes above the AF100.


But you say that the FS100 is placed below the AF100?
Yes, I do, and I think it's obvious that Sony would consider it that way as well. The simple fact that they didn't include SDI on it speaks volumes for which market they intend to aim for. I am not talking about how people will use it, I was discussing where Sony was positioning it. In my opinion, it appears that they are slotting it at the top of the NEX line, but not intending it as a serious professional & broadcast product. That's all I meant. All I was asking people to do was to judge it based on what it actually is, not on what they wish it was. Same thing happened when the other NEX products came out, people were vitriolic towards them when they were never intended to be what our members here wanted it to be.

When the initial responses were all very negative on this new Sony, I tried to bring some perspective to it and say that maybe its only problem was mismatched expectations, and maybe it wasn't aimed at what some of us wanted, is all. Apparently such comments aren't welcome, so ... hey, have at it -- if the camera does exactly what you want, then today is Christmas day and what you need is coming at the end of May. And if it doesn't do what you want, please don't endlessly harp and complain about it, just move on to something else that does.

That is all.

[Kholi]

The price one pays for rational thinking amidst emotional perspectives... no different than being burned at the stake for being a witch aka knowledged.

Blarg.

[zeke]

I think some of the defensiveness on this thread is because Nigel Cooper's review appeared to go out of it's way to down talk the FS-100. When he tells you "Better buy that matte box and a stack of glass 4x4 ND filters in various stops if you ‘truly’ want to control depth-of-field" it sounds like he is trying to be negative. Yeah, you could spend $1000 to $1500 bucks and go that route or you could pick up a few ND filters on E-bay to screw them on your lenses. Or when he said "I kid you not, the white-balance set button is so small I had to use a ballpoint pen to engage it, and my fingers are relatively slim." Did you see the size of the white balance button on the pictures... I did, it seemed the size I would expect it to be... Then he goes on to talk about the quality of the buttons and how he had to look at the screen to see if he had engaged it... I personally can't think of a single time I've ever hit a white balance button and not looked at the screen to see the image correct for the balanced color temperature. It just seems like he was trying to use a lot of baloney arguments to trash talk it.

Also, subtle things like taking the pictures of the camera with the lens extended all the way gave it a kind of "cheap" look. And he did that in every picture of it. Or the sample "screen shots" aka crappy shot of a less than aesthetically pleasing lunch cafe with a couple people with their backs turned in a poorly composed scene where you can't tell what he was focusing on... The whole "review" struck me as kind of silly. It may be the worst camera Sony has ever made but I am going to wait till some people who's opinion I respect can play with it before I discount it. I too am more interested in the image than the form factor (but if Sony or someones test confirms 8 bits i'll be a little frustrated...) I still think whether I purchase the camera or not, it's good to have major brands competing with large sensor, interchangeable lens cameras in my price range. I can't wait for some creative people to really start to see how to squeeze the best images out of this camera.

P.S. I like having more buttons, even if they are a little smaller. I would prefer dedicated buttons to having to jump deep into software menu's for the most commonly used tasks. To each his own though.

Frankly I was disapointed with his review. There were several things he didn't mention about the camera. Complained about the handle/mic holder getting in the way of the view finder, when one can clearly see you can adjust the horizontal tube, push it forward and clear the LCD. Didn't talk about the buttons on the side much, just complained about everything. This camera is setup for those wishing to move from a HDDSLR but keep a familiar form/feel to it. Not for everybody. This camera is easily customized.
This camera with the A mount adaptor will let you get full use of those excellent Zeiss zoom lenses, including full control, just like a Sony Alpha DSLR. Using them with an AF100, they become strictly manual.
It's not the first time a review of his is off the mark, and I'"m sure won't be the last.
I don't know if I want this camera or not. But the decision won't be based on his review.

[vanvideo]

Frankly I was disapointed with his review. There were several things he didn't mention about the camera. Complained about the handle/mic holder getting in the way of the view finder, when one can clearly see you can adjust the horizontal tube, push it forward and clear the LCD. Didn't talk about the buttons on the side much, just complained about everything. This camera is setup for those wishing to move from a HDDSLR but keep a familiar form/feel to it. Not for everybody. This camera is easily customized.
This camera with the A mount adaptor will let you get full use of those excellent Zeiss zoom lenses, including full control, just like a Sony Alpha DSLR. Using them with an AF100, they become strictly manual.
It's not the first time a review of his is off the mark, and I'"m sure won't be the last.
I don't know if I want this camera or not. But the decision won't be based on his review.

Thank you, Zeke.
As much as Nigel panned it, Dem practically salivated over the camera in his review. Take each review for what it is - a personal opinion of the reviewer. Maybe it can help guide you, but withhold final judgement until you see one for yourself.
It would seem many people on this forum are forgetting this.

I noticed the handle can slide forward. By the pics, it does seem to clear the viewfinder. I also thought of another reason for the sliding handle - slide it back, and be able to fit a mattebox over shorter lenses. Clever, eh?
And the buttons didn't seem any more intimidating than the many on my XF305. Interesting review, for sure. In Nigel's defense, Sony didn't include a manual.

Edit - Sorry, it's DEN, not Dem. My apologies.

[zeke]

vamvideo, I thought Dem's review was pretty much a puff piece too. But it was more informative than Nigels. I'm thinking those 2 Zeiss zooms, a Ninja recorder, and you still under 10K. (Assuming street price is around 5K).
Not a bad setup if the picture quality holds up to further review.

[dcloud]

Well dem was part of the consultants of the camera design so obviously his inputs on it are part of what made the final look.

Imo itll shoot great footges despite the really crappy design/layout of the camera

[zeke]

Well dem was part of the consultants of the camera design so obviously his inputs on it are part of what made the final look.

Imo itll shoot great footges despite the really crappy design/layout of the camera

Crappy layout is a subjective point of view. Until I get my hands on one, I'll reserve judgement. Dem loved the layout, Nigel hated it. Dem was speaking from the point of view of an experienced DSLR user. Nigel from an experienced pro video cam (shoulder mount) user.

[vanvideo]

The reviewer's name is DEN Lennie, not Dem. Just wanted to clear that up.

[dcloud]

Crappy layout is a subjective point of view. Until I get my hands on one, I'll reserve judgement. Dem loved the layout, Nigel hated it. Dem was speaking from the point of view of an experienced DSLR user. Nigel from an experienced pro video cam (shoulder mount) user.Thats why theres an IMO on my post.

[zeke]

dcloud, yes, that's true. Not razzing you or anyone else. From somone who shoots stills and video with a hand held Canon 60D, the layout makes perfect sense. But compared to my JVC HD-100, it's plain wierd. It's a matter of training IMHO.

[vanvideo]

For the record, Den is well aware of Nigel's review, and he vehemently disagrees with it. Den claims the camera was well built and robust. He compared the build quality to an EX1.

He also says that as part of the design team, he asked for ND filters, but Sony did not add them.
According to Nigel, Sony said the distance between the flange and sensor was too small , so no ND filter wheel could fit.

[zeke]

I have to agree with Den, even without seeing the camera for myself.
For an idea on the proper way to hold the camera in hand held mode, check out this link...http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/content/id/1237480587665/section/home?parentFlexibleHub=1159199101117 scroll down about half way to
the picture of the guy holding it. Proper form for shooting stills or video hand held with a HDDSLR is left hand on the lens, right hand on the body, arms tucked in close to body, viewfinder is centered on the camera body to line up easily
with your eye (left or right). When peoole add external lcd vewfinders on HDDSLRs, you'll find they tend to mount them on top of the camera, so they can maintain center view line. Hence the design aesthetic of the FS100.

Hope this clears up some of the misgivings those moving from a traditional cam corder have. Just a training issue IMHO.

[Lee Saxon]

I fail to see this camera as ANYTHING like the Epic design AT ALL.

Well it's a cube with a top-mounted LCD, so they're kinda a similar shape? That's about it.


I am not talking about how people will use it, I was discussing where Sony was positioning it.

Yeah that's a pretty huge distinction. I doubt Canon intended the 5D to be used on House...

[speedracerlo]

I was wondering if there is a big noticeable difference in image quality between 8-bit and 10-bit uncompressed images.
I know the 4:2:2 colorspace lets me push the grading to more extremes without artifacts and I can also key better, but I never fully understood the benefit of 10-bit output
What exactly is lost by not having 10-bit uncompressed from the HDMI out?

[zeke]

I"m registered to go to the event in NYC on March 31, hopefully I'll be able to get a better idea about the ergonomics of the FS100.

[sirnoumena]

Has anyone heard anything about audio through HDMI?

[Rick Burnett]

Did I read this right that the body has OIS built into it?!? (In the comments here http://vimeo.com/21372344 by the video creator)

[Jade Lane]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see 1080/24p anywhere, sorry in advance if I'm missing something here....

http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/nxcamcorders/nex-fs100e/technicalspecs

Check the other mentioned compact CMOS Camera also...

http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/nxcamcorders/hxr-nx70e/overview

[vanvideo]

I think the European model has 25P only, no 24P.

[vanvideo]

Did I read this right that the body has OIS built into it?!? (In the comments here http://vimeo.com/21372344 by the video creator)

E mount lenses have OIS built into them. I doubt the body of the camera does.

[Rick Burnett]

I believe from what I read that the UK version does not have 24p, but the US version does. So it looks like there are two versions of the camera in terms of functionality (or moreso probably firmware).

[zeke]

I was wondering if there is a big noticeable difference in image quality between 8-bit and 10-bit uncompressed images.
I know the 4:2:2 colorspace lets me push the grading to more extremes without artifacts and I can also key better, but I never fully understood the benefit of 10-bit output
What exactly is lost by not having 10-bit uncompressed from the HDMI out?

To fully take advantage of 10bit color, you need hardware/software that takes advantage of it. Which means much more expensive than your standard video card and computer monitor. It usually involves creating lookup tables (LUT) so software can
make approximations of 10bit color on 8bit displays. But recent cards (Nvidia's QuodroFX and AMD Firestorm) along with the more moderately priced HP dream color displays are capable of displaying 10bit color natively. It still depends on the software to take advantage of it. Not all NLEs do.

[Rick Burnett]

E mount lenses have OIS built into them. I doubt the body of the camera does.

I doubt it as well, but quoting Den & James "But Built in IS into the body"

[vanvideo]

I"m registered to go to the event in NYC on March 31, hopefully I'll be able to get a better idea about the ergonomics of the FS100.

Luck-yyyy!!

[zeke]

I think the European model has 25P only, no 24P.

according to te brochure for the E model, it has both 24 and 25p. It appears the North American model only supports 24p.

[vanvideo]

I doubt it as well, but quoting Den & James "But Built in IS into the body"

Maybe they meant the body of the lens?

Edit - the Sony website only lists the stabilizing in the supplied lens.

[zeke]

I thought so too, but the brochure only talks about OIS being built into E mount lenses.

[Jade Lane]

Thats what I thought, no 24p for the Uk model ? how is this a indie filmmakers 'dream camera' ?

I've been hanging onto my VG10 hoping for a firmware upgrade and was so excited about the NEX-FS100E but now what ?

Also the 'NEW' Compact HXR-NX70E has exactly the same Exmor R CMOS sensor as the VG10 but a fixed lens, I know there's extra spec but isn't this kind of a step backwards ?

[speedracerlo]

Thanks I understand what you mean and the end product will most likely end up as a 8-bit compressed format
But I don't understand what the difference in quality is between the 10-bit 4:2:2 (PMW-F3) and 8-bit 4:2:2 (FS-100) outputs.
Both cameras will have the same exact sensor, but the FS-100 will just have a slightly nerfed output.
What can we expect to lose from that?

[vanvideo]

Thats what I thought, no 24p for the Uk model ? how is this a indie filmmakers 'dream camera' ?

I've been hanging onto my VG10 hoping for a firmware upgrade and was so excited about the NEX-FS100E but now what ?

Also the 'NEW' Compact HXR-NX70E has exactly the same Exmor R CMOS sensor as the VG10 but a fixed lens, I know there's extra spec but isn't this kind of a step backwards ?



The NX70E doesn't have the chip from the VG10. The NX70E has a 1/2.88 size chip. That's a typical consumer sized chip. The VG10 has an APS-C size sensor - big difference.

[glnf]

I still have the impression that this is technically an incredible camera with some design flaws. One thing really puzzles me. I see the advantage of shooting with a striped down camera Hasselblad style. So rotating the screen upside down and holding the camera with both hands in front of the body. A shooting position I like a lot and the camera seams ideal for that. But doesn't the screen cover the start/stop button then? And as far as I can see the only other start/stop button is on the detachable handle.

[vanvideo]

I still have the impression that this is technically an incredible camera with some design flaws. One thing really puzzles me. I see the advantage of shooting with a striped down camera Hasselblad style. So rotating the screen upside down and holding the camera with both hands in front of the body. A shooting position I like a lot and the camera seams ideal for that. But doesn't the screen cover the start/stop button then? And as far as I can see the only other start/stop button is on the detachable handle.

There is another somewhere on the front of the body.

edit - I've looked at the pics and damned if I can see the switch, though.

edit again - I re-watched Den's video and there is a second (third?) start/stop button right next to the side hand grip mount.

[Lee Saxon]

I don't understand what the difference in quality is between the 10-bit 4:2:2 (PMW-F3) and 8-bit 4:2:2 (FS-100) outputs.

With 8-bit words, the ADC has 256 options when deciding what color/tone to assign to each pixel. That's why you get banding in the sky on cheap DSLRs: it says "this pixel is dark blue, this pixel is light blue" even if they're supposed to be closer together than that.

With 10-bit words, the ADC has 1024 options, so there can be half a dozen shades between "dark blue" and "light blue" and gradients like a dramatic sky are much smoother.

The trick is that it can be false advertising. The RAW codec used on many modern DSLRs is 14-bit (16,384 options), but the ADC which actually records data from the sensor is still only 10-bit (or even 8-bit sometimes) so it doesn't matter.

[ddh]

My take on the XDCAM S35 ... it will appeal to quite a number of DSLR shooters who want to shoot video. No ND filters ... not a go for me!
My EX3 will do very well at this point ... thank you very much. The F3 ... an exciting camera with serious design flaws i.e. viewfinder, camcorder design that is too heavy for traditional hand held shoots to name just two. I'll wait for the F5 ... hopefully, Sony will take a look at the JVC design for their small shoulder HD camera and take that concept, along with the qualities in the F3, and design a proper camera.

[glnf]

There is another somewhere on the front of the body.
Uff! Thanks!

[nyvz]

I was wondering if there is a big noticeable difference in image quality between 8-bit and 10-bit uncompressed images.
I know the 4:2:2 colorspace lets me push the grading to more extremes without artifacts and I can also key better, but I never fully understood the benefit of 10-bit output
What exactly is lost by not having 10-bit uncompressed from the HDMI out?

4:2:2 should reduce the likelihood of visible blocking in chroma channels compared to 4:2:0, whereas 10-bit should reduce the likelihood of visible banding in gradients in luma or chroma channels compared to 8-bit. Both artifacts are more likely to appear when making adjustments to the recorded images. In my limited experience, even with 8bit 4:2:0 images I rarely see significant instances of these potential artifacts unless for some reason image processing operations are not performed with enough precision or there is a problem with the camera's processing and it is not using its full 8bit range properly.

[David G. Smith]

So what is the story on this onboard SSD option? Does it record the same output as the SD cards? From the Sony website it is MSRP $800.00, is that with drives, or is it like the new Ninja where you throw in your own drives?

[zeke]

Thats what I thought, no 24p for the Uk model ? how is this a indie filmmakers 'dream camera' ?

I've been hanging onto my VG10 hoping for a firmware upgrade and was so excited about the NEX-FS100E but now what ?

Also the 'NEW' Compact HXR-NX70E has exactly the same Exmor R CMOS sensor as the VG10 but a fixed lens, I know there's extra spec but isn't this kind of a step backwards ?

the UK model has both 24 and 25p. Says so in the brochure.

[nyvz]

I"m registered to go to the event in NYC on March 31, hopefully I'll be able to get a better idea about the ergonomics of the FS100.

Which one? The one at E.C. PRO?

[nyvz]

So what is the story on this onboard SSD option? Does it record the same output as the SD cards? From the Sony website it is MSRP $800.00, is that with drives, or is it like the new Ninja where you throw in your own drives?

It's $650 at B&H and it is a 128GB flash module. That is the only configuration, and it has a USB connection for copying footage. Seems like a good option to have for backing up, I probably would have prefered an extra card slot, but maybe it would have been more expensive if it didnt push people to buy another $650 sony product...

[zeke]

Which one? The one at E.C. PRO?

Yes.

[zeke]

Once again, a thread is clogged with people complaing about an unreleased product, worse, one they don't have any interest in.

[Jade Lane]

The NX70E doesn't have the chip from the VG10. The NX70E has a 1/2.88 size chip. That's a typical consumer sized chip. The VG10 has an APS-C size sensor - big difference.

The Sony Uk website says the NX70E has the Exmor R CMOS sensor, same Chip as the VG10......see for yourself

http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/product/nxcamcorders/hxr-nx70e/overview

Edit - Sorry you are right, I didn't know there were three versions of the Sony Exmor Cmos sensor?

[optitek]

Love this camera,
This is what my rig was made for. Love the "box" configuration. No "pony tail" VFs, hand grips, or any other useless garbage..
So many options. Did I mention I love it?:Drogar-BigGrin(DBG)

[BobbyMurcerFan]

All I can say is that from the footage I've seen, this is NO F3. Every F3 clip seen has this crazy organic pop and just simply no noise. I don't see that with this camera's footage so far. To be fair, there is almost no footage out there. But the F3's footage was killer from the very first sample.

Maybe I'm wrong, but IF the hope was to get F3 image quality in a small, less pro body, then the FS100 will probably be a disappointment.


P.S. I think the whole eight bit vs ten bit thing is a little bit (pun intended) of a non-issue. You need a very clean, noise free image to have ten bits matter.

[zeke]

the UK model has both 24 and 25p. Says so in the brochure.

I went back and found the tech specs. I was wrong. No 24p for the UK version. They better add that if they plan on selling any. Crap.

[zeke]

This appears to another BS segregation issue between North America and the EU. I thought they had gotten past this with the EX1R (setup for either PAL or NTSC). I can see that as a deal killer for many.

[Rick Burnett]

I've got a few questions out there I am trying to get answered to see if I want to try this camera out. I can always return it if I am not happy. I am not brand loyal and if this gets me closer to my idea rig, then that is what I want. I'm not saying it does, but I've not written it off. :)

[MadMonkFish]

This appears to another BS segregation issue between North America and the EU. I thought they had gotten past this with the EX1R (setup for either PAL or NTSC). I can see that as a deal killer for many.

Yes - posted a comment on another thread re this point - USA 60/30/24P vs UK/EUR 50/25P - arghh!

All we can hope is that it can be mode switched or region 'unlocked' - as Sony's brochure mentions it has an update option.

Deal-breaker/killer for quite a few OP's I'd imagine. Seems a very odd move - not something Panny did with the AF100 or Sony with F3. But similar to Panasonic with the GH2 - maybe it's the dfferent divisions issue again... or Sony just doesn't like PAL-Land users!

[Sam Scoggins]

This appears to another BS segregation issue between North America and the EU. I thought they had gotten past this with the EX1R (setup for either PAL or NTSC). I can see that as a deal killer for many.

On the already exising NXCAM, the HXR-NX5U, Sony offer a "WorldCam" upgrade which enables both 24p and 25p on the same camera. It will be interesting to see if they offer this option with the FS100.

[Sam Scoggins]

Actually I just checked and I think the NX5U is 60i / 50i switchable by the the "WorldCam" upgrade: http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/micro-nxcamsite/cat-broadcastcameras/product-HXRNX5U/

[avro]

I think this product isn't what people were expecting. That won't make it inherently bad, but the disappointment seems to stem from people expecting it to be something that it (apparently) isn't.

If we use the HVX200 for comparison to the AF100, people wanted to see Sony's competitor, and everyone thinks of it as the EX1, but they forget -- first came the V7U. The V7U was priced to be a competitor to the HVX200/HPX170, and it was the first "real" 24p camcorder Sony made. But it didn't match up to what people expected, so it never really made an impact on us over here, and a year or so later the EX1 came out, and that was the "real" camera that people wanted.

So maybe this NEX is the "V7U" version. I'll admit, as soon as I heard it was in the NEX line, I lost 99% interest. And then the specs confirm that. It's not targeted at the AF100, or if it is targeted at the AF100 I think they missed the target pretty hard. The lack of fundamental pro features like the ND wheel and the HD-SDI make it look like it's probably aimed to be the top of the NEX line, but not in the same category or class as the F3 at all.

And they originally had said $6,000 and then later raised that to $7,000 -- which I think a lot of folks changed their expectations because hey, that's EX1 territory, so I think it was reasonable for us to expect that this cam would be on par with the EX1, which would make it a large-sensor EX1 as compared to the AF100's large-sensor HPX170. But it isn't, the actual pricing is $4500, which puts it at least a category, if not two categories, below the EX1. (meaning, if it's $4500 street, it's one category down, if it's $4500 MSRP it's two categories down).

It looks like it is more of an intermediate step between the DSLR and the AF100, than it is a true AF100 competitor. It looks more like it's the "V7U" class of camcorder rather than the "EX1" class.

That said, if Sony's patterns hold, then in about a year or 18 months we should see a real competitor.

Barry,
i 100% disagree with You.
I love this design for that money.
I can't wait to see you in Sydney this year.

cheers jiri

[speedracerlo]

if the sensor has characteristics close or exactly like the F3, then I think the issue with no ND wheel or HD-SDI out is not a huge deal breaker
I dont know if there are other drawbacks, but I guess we just need to wait for a comparison shot between the F3 and FS100

[Jade Lane]

I watched the F-stop review again and after digesting todays findings I'm actually quite excited,

1. Buy the USA version for 24p

2. I bet some third party company will design a nice Hand grip replacement

3. With all the mounting options on the top & bottom of the camera I can see some other nice third party things coming too.

4. We've got all these nice E-Mount lenses coming in the future (Sigma, Carl Zeiss, Tamron and Cosina)

I think this might just be the camera for me........once its customized a bit.

Stay positive

[pulpfiction007]

I don't know what others were expecting from this camera - but it's pretty much just what I thought. It's a poor (well not that poor) man's F3....Yes you lose the 10 bit output....so what. Have you looked at F3 footage shot with the onboard codec? It still looks fantastic and the FS100's onboard codec is better than the F3s. Sony's releases usually do nothing for me...but this camera is incredible for the money. The NDs not being there is the one thing that I did expect. But oh well...figure that out, get some good lenses, and this camera will produce mind blowing footage....I don't have a doubt about it. Even the footage that's out right now looks pretty great....but wait until someone from here gets their hands on it.

[maranfilms]

I don't know what others were expecting from this camera - but it's pretty much just what I thought. It's a poor (well not that poor) man's F3....Yes you lose the 10 bit output....so what. Have you looked at F3 footage shot with the onboard codec? It still looks fantastic and the FS100's onboard codec is better than the F3s. Sony's releases usually do nothing for me...but this camera is incredible for the money. The NDs not being there is the one thing that I did expect. But oh well...figure that out, get some good lenses, and this camera will produce mind blowing footage....I don't have a doubt about it. Even the footage that's out right now looks pretty great....but wait until someone from here gets their hands on it.

Dude, I couldn't agree more. Im stoked at the change in styling. I was hoping they would get away from the yester year traditional camcorder look. This is just a simple modular box, much like the red one. But when you add some rails, follow focus, and a nice mattebox, it will start to transform into a compact s35 cinema camera, that will be able to use many lenses like the af100. This camera is everything I wanted in a camera. I honestly never thought I would ever buy a sony product, but hey, all things change right. Once more people see a properly setup rig, they will change their minds to. The image quality is the best I have seen in any sub 20,000 cam, other than the f3 of course. Yup, Im in love!

[Jade Lane]

Right on,

We need our own 'SONY FS100' forum section now..... Barry ?

[HHL]

I'm so happy to see Sony show up. First the F3, now the FS100.....I can see they cut some corners....but what do you expect for 5K? If this sensor is anywhere near the F3 in final IQ output.....it's going to be a MAJOR PLAYER. I LOVE the design/size....wow....this is freaking exciting for me. I've seen the early bashing....no biggie....the "proof" will be in the IQ and I'm pretty confident that it will do just fine. Way to go SONY!!

[metalalien]

Someone said the S/N ratio is 54db, I asked for a link to where they saw that, still waiting.

[Yak]

I have to say the lack of ND filters is a bummer but I believe the ARRI Alexa also does not have a built in ND filters. That said I am looking forward to head to head image comparison with the F3, even if it is the same sensor I still want to see if the S/N, low light and dynamic range are equal.

[metalalien]

Here a page with 54db listed. Don't know how reliable this website is.

http://filmcyfrowy.blogspot.com/2011/03/sony-nex-fs100.html

[Rick Burnett]

Here a page with 54db listed. Don't know how reliable this website is.

http://filmcyfrowy.blogspot.com/2011/03/sony-nex-fs100.html

What's the conversion to stops? I also see the F3 is rated at 63dB.

[Steve Castle]

Someone said the S/N ratio is 54db, I asked for a link to where they saw that, still waiting.

I remember reading that on the Spanish Sony site somewhere. Its largely due to the fact that the FS100 won't have S-log and won't have 10-bit recording (presumably). 54-db is around 9-bit depth. db= 20 × Log(linear FWC/ noise)

[speedracerlo]

well 9-bit is better than 8-bit isnt it
when can i order this damn thing...

[Rick Burnett]

well 9-bit is better than 8-bit isnt it
when can i order this damn thing...

No, because the limitation is still 8-bits coming out. And the issue is, compared to what? Until this camera is in the wild, we really don't know for sure how it stacks up. Don't get me wrong, the videos are nice, but that really doesn't tell the story.

[BobbyMurcerFan]

I don't know what others were expecting from this camera - but it's pretty much just what I thought. It's a poor (well not that poor) man's F3....Yes you lose the 10 bit output....so what. Have you looked at F3 footage shot with the onboard codec? It still looks fantastic and the FS100's onboard codec is better than the F3s. Sony's releases usually do nothing for me...but this camera is incredible for the money. The NDs not being there is the one thing that I did expect. But oh well...figure that out, get some good lenses, and this camera will produce mind blowing footage....I don't have a doubt about it. Even the footage that's out right now looks pretty great....but wait until someone from here gets their hands on it.

Have you seen any FS100 footage that looks like F3 footage? I hope it looks as good, but seeing is believing. The one sample of FS100 I've seen is not even close to F3 footage.

[avro]

I like people who make critical image observations on YouTube....hmm this was not possible 10 years ago.
There will be some some not so happy AF100 +F3 users out there..
But that's progress for you. NAB will be great this year..........and wait there is EPIC-s and Scarlet next.

[Shipsides]

The sensor of the FS100 is the same as the one in the F3, so it has the same signal to noise ratio and same Gain options up to 18 db. From my contact from Sony I believe it is a full 10-bit output over HDMI. The big differences between the two cameras are outputs, recording formats, and the upgrade path to S-Log. Yes and the ND thing.

[Danielvilliers]

The sensor of the FS100 is the same as the one in the F3, so it has the same signal to noise ratio and same Gain options up to 18 db. From my contact from Sony I believe it is a full 10-bit output over HDMI. The big differences between the two cameras are outputs, recording formats, and the upgrade path to S-Log. Yes and the ND thing.

That would be fantastic, if the output is 10bit even from HDMI and not sdi it will be very good. It will not be as practical as hdsdi but in the end result will be identical. That is why perhaps they put the hdmi 1.4 because I heard it could event carry 444 signal and 4k res video.

[vanvideo]

Nigel Cooper says in his review it's 8-bit.

[Danielvilliers]

I think he went a bit fast on this part because from the other reviewer from fstopacademy he was saying that it did not work because it was still a prototype.

[Sam Scoggins]

The sensor of the FS100 is the same as the one in the F3, so it has the same signal to noise ratio and same Gain options up to 18 db. From my contact from Sony I believe it is a full 10-bit output over HDMI. The big differences between the two cameras are outputs, recording formats, and the upgrade path to S-Log. Yes and the ND thing.

If this is true it would be great. 10-bit potentially means less "banding" in sky's etc + more resiliance in post production.

[TimurCivan]

Its great for the personal owner/small production company. One where they most likey won't be working outside their own pool of equipment. Good lens, 10bit Hdmi + Atmos = most bang for the buck of any camera.... probably ever.

[Rick Burnett]

The sensor of the FS100 is the same as the one in the F3, so it has the same signal to noise ratio and same Gain options up to 18 db. From my contact from Sony I believe it is a full 10-bit output over HDMI. The big differences between the two cameras are outputs, recording formats, and the upgrade path to S-Log. Yes and the ND thing.

And mention of what you can control with the remote port? Will it allow control of Iris and Focus (so if I have the FS100 up on a crane)?

[zeke]

The sensor of the FS100 is the same as the one in the F3, so it has the same signal to noise ratio and same Gain options up to 18 db. From my contact from Sony I believe it is a full 10-bit output over HDMI. The big differences between the two cameras are outputs, recording formats, and the upgrade path to S-Log. Yes and the ND thing.

For most low budget independent productions, 10bit 4:2:2 will be a welcome feature.

[zeke]

Nigel Cooper says in his review it's 8-bit.
Everyone should take his review with a large grain of salt.

[vanvideo]

I'm curious to see how the FS100 is at handheld shooting. The layout of the grip is simliar to an EX3, minus the semi-shoulder form. The FS100 should weight about 1.5 lbs less.
I hope my local dealer get a demo model soon.

[zeke]

The sensor of the FS100 is the same as the one in the F3, so it has the same signal to noise ratio and same Gain options up to 18 db. From my contact from Sony I believe it is a full 10-bit output over HDMI. The big differences between the two cameras are outputs, recording formats, and the upgrade path to S-Log. Yes and the ND thing.

Will you be putting up a review soon?

[Kholi]

The sensor of the FS100 is the same as the one in the F3, so it has the same signal to noise ratio and same Gain options up to 18 db. From my contact from Sony I believe it is a full 10-bit output over HDMI. The big differences between the two cameras are outputs, recording formats, and the upgrade path to S-Log. Yes and the ND thing.

Thanks for the info, Shipsides. It would be great if the output was 10-Bit for sure. It so, then the Nanoflash and other similar units would be great for jobs requiring a video signal out, and you would get a small boost in image quality.

Then, in the cases where it's just yourself, you can run with the camera body.

The XLR port on the back is a nice little treat for powering different things.

[Richard J]

Gentleman!!! I contacted Sony Professional yesterday about the HDMI output. They took my company information and contact info and told me they'd get back with the specifics.

I just got off the phone with an engineer (Doug) with sony who confirmed that the HDMI out is 10-Bit!!! 10 bits 422 uncompressed with embedded timecode is what he told me and I made him confirm that it was indeed 10 bits.

They should put that sh@# on their website!!! Sounds like we may be able to get pretty f'in flexible footage out of a FS_100 and an Atomos Ninja. Sign me up!!!

[David Shapton]

They should put that sh@# on their website!!! Sounds like we may be able to get pretty f'in flexible footage out of a FS_100 and an Atomos Ninja. Sign me up!!!

Very happy to! We think this combination is going to rock.

Dave
Atomos.

[dustylense]

We'll there ya have it! 10bit!

[Rick Burnett]

Very happy to! We think this combination is going to rock.

Dave
Atomos.

Well now, looks like I might be a customer very soon if this turns out to be true. :)

[Jay Birch]

FS100 with 10bit hmdi out = good times for Atomos (and Sony)!

I hope it is true.

[Richard J]

Me too!!! Nigel Cooper is on another thread telling me that he had confirmed twice on the phone with "his sony rep" that it was 8-bit. The guy I spoke to was in the engineering department at sony professional so I tend to think he would know his shit and engineers are not typically the types to just state information they don't know for sure, reps sometimes are... We'll see though. I'm tentatively confident.

[Rick Burnett]

I'm an engineer :) Yes, we tend to be very factual. It's usually sales that misquotes and/or promises the world, then they come back to us and complain that it is our fault the feature is not there! :P I've read sales white papers before on products I have worked on and it's comical how things can be portrayed at times! I could never work in sales.

[frantick]

Couldn't this be the case like other implementations, sending 10 bit, but 2 bits are padded, so in effect 8-bits? Then both engineers/sony contacts are 'technically' correct.

I hope it's definitively answered soon.

-cp

[Richard J]

I don't think so frantick... It was my understanding that a device that sent 10 bits actually sent 10 bits of information. I'm familiar with information being padded like with some recorders that are set up to record 10 bits of information, when they are only sent 8 they then will pad the remaining 2 bits. I don't think bits are padded when they are sent from the camera out. I'm certainly not the authority on this though. Where's Barry when you need him right...

[speedracerlo]

I am so damn happy to hear about the 10-bit news
now I'm 200% for this camera

[pulpfiction007]

Have you seen any FS100 footage that looks like F3 footage? I hope it looks as good, but seeing is believing. The one sample of FS100 I've seen is not even close to F3 footage.

The shot I saw looked really good @full screen, but I agree so far, that the really well shot F3 stuff is better....but some of the F3 footage looks similar to my eyes. I'd agree it's not good to judge entirely on second hand compressed video. I feel that the FS100 retains the F3's signature look but probably won't achieve the DR. Also....that's why I believe when one of our members, or someone like Bloom gets his hands on it....we'll be blown away with what it does for the money.
Even Nigel Cooper, who isn't fond of the overall package, conceded that it's a great image with less aliasing and cleaner than the AF100...which in my mind is a stellar camera for the money as well.

[zeke]

Very happy to! We think this combination is going to rock.

Dave
Atomos.

If true, I'm going to buy it. Even though I will still get the Scarlett Fixed. 3 months to get my credit cards paid down, hehehe.

[Barry_Green]

. I don't think bits are padded when they are sent from the camera out. I'm certainly not the authority on this though. Where's Barry when you need him right...
Yes, bits are definitely padded on the output. The HD-SDI specification calls for 10-bit words, so on cameras that only output 8 bits of data (like all the Canons, JVCs, and most of the AG-series Panasonics) they will send out 8 bits of data and two padding bits.

I don't know how the FS100 is doing it. Someone will have to actually get one and test it to know for sure.

[Richard J]

Thanks Barry. When I asked my question to the person I spoke with at Sony I asked if the camera was sending 8 bits of information or 10 bits over the HDMI. The reply was that it was 10 bits 422 uncompressed with embedded timecode.

It appears there's some ambiguity over what 10 bits of information means. 10 bits with 2 padding bits is still 10 bits of information. In a few months we will be able to test it and find out but is there any question I could ask the engineer that would specify whether it's 10 bits of usable/relevant information or just 8 bits of usable info and 2 bits of "place holders". It does seem bizarre that sony wouldn't have released this information with the camera specs. You mentioned in the case of HD-SDI 10 bits of info is required in the specification so the cameras have to pad the extra bits if they aren't actually capturing 10 bits. That makes sense to me. Is the HDMI standard the same in that respect? Are 10 bits required?

Once again Barry, thanks for the clarification.