European version?

[Robert_Niemann]

Will the HVX200 come in two version, one for NTSC (480i/p) and another one for PAL (576i/p), or will there be one for all? And, by the way, 1080p - does that not mean 1920 x 1080 pixel and three CCDs with 2.073.600 pixel each? I am totally confused...

[Barry_Green]

Don't know whether it'll be international (50i & 60i, 25p & 24P combined) or localized (like every other camera other than the Z1 has been). No announcement has been made to that effect yet.

1080p means that it shoots footage that would be appropriate for display on a 1920x1080 progressive-scan display. We don't yet know how many CCDs or the pixel count on them.

The Sony FX1/Z1 shoot 1080i, but their CCDs are only 960x1080, and they use pixel-shift to get the resolution up to 1440x1080, and then upsample on playback to 1920x1080. It's entirely possible the HVX would work similarly, or the HVX may actually have 1920x1080 pixel-count CCDs. We just don't know yet, and probably won't know until April 18th.

[PanasonicNZ]

1080/50i, 108025p, 720/50p, 720/25p, 576/50i, 576/25p. All DVCPRO codecs and DV. This is all I know so far. I can't wait to get to NAB.

[Robert_Niemann]

Tanks, Barry and Gabriel.
Gabriel, do I understand your post rightly, that there will be a European version with 25/50 instead of 24/30/60?

[PanasonicNZ]

Yes Robert, there will be a PAL version for Europe/Au/NZ.

[Monglane]

Thanks, Gabriel. Hope we'll soon be able to see one in Europe somewhere. I'm shooting a short in June with my DVX100A and I'm fully ready to preorder an HVX !

Any clue as to the zoom reach ? The lens barrel doesn't look very much longer than the DVX's...?

[PanasonicNZ]

Desole, Monglane, je ne sais pas... Sorry guys, I have absolutely no idea what other features the camera will have. But I'm sure you'll love it.

[araujofh]

1080/50i, 108025p, 720/50p, 720/25p, 576/50i, 576/25p. All DVCPRO codecs and DV. This is all I know so far. I can't wait to get to NAB.

Why can't panasonic release a PAL version with 24p? And where does the variable frame rate fit in the PAL version? Or is the PAL version going to be lacking that?

Man, it sounded too good to be true. Why do you do this to us Panasonic? The DVX was acceptable, but come on an HD camera with 25p only? Why don't you do it like the Varicam? Damn!

[GAZPACHO]

What? Not 24p in PAL? That´s not possible. We will not buy another fake like this. I made a shortfilm in 25p and put it in film 35mm. All the actors and music was very slooooowww. This is shit for us. We need 24p also, and direct recording to hard drive. Otherwise is going to be another try of making THE RIGHT CAMERA.

:(

Thanks

[delaro]

i m wondering too. i m in france and dont know yet if i will take the pal or ntsc model. ntsc is cool for 24p. with the dvx it was better to have pal version for the resolution but with hd......
do u really notice the difference when you went 35mm?
wim wenders shooted with the pal dvx100 but it was ok for me in a theater.

[princigalli]

I think in this case the NTSC version would be a better choice for many of us. Anyway HT is high resolution enough that cou can downscale to PAL in software, and still keep 24p. The only reason to have a PAL version would be to use the PAL DV right out of the camera, which I'm sure nobody really wants to do. I prefer to do my editing and post in HD, and downconvert the finished product.

Also, I don't know about NZ and AU, but EU distributors have a bad habit of pricing in Euros following a 1 to 1 conversion from US$. We all know that €1 is more than $1.3, and the US currency is dropping every day. Apple even goes so far to sell some programs for $19 in the us and €29 in EU, effectively reversing the conversion and charging Europeans more than twice the price. Also most EU countries have a crazy amount of sales taxes.

I think consumers should not accept to be treated that way and if items are overpriced in their countries, they should go get it somewhere else.

[pmark23]

You do realize that films run at 25 frames-per-second in Europe don't you?

PAL is much better than NTSC on a technical level (higher resolution, larger colour-space).

Why do you think a few years ago many Hollywood DV (and previously Hi8) filmmakers were using PAL cameras? They sure didn't have a problem converting 25fps to 24fps. It's been done for half a century (or more).

[alpi69]

the only advantage the NTSC will have is the 60fps slomo in 720p. that is actually 10 frames more than in PAL. 48fps is slomo in film while 60 can already be considered "high-speed". so the NTSC will be superslo and the PAL only slomo (but already extremely cool).

other than that i see no difference in 25p to 24p. how many films do we see every day that are shot in 24 p in the states and we do not see the difference after the conversion (and vice versa). if you see the actors slower and hear the music slower then that is only you. the audience will not see or hear a difference when the conversion si done properly.

[GAZPACHO]

I had problems making the transfer in arrilaser. Very xpensive and a lot of pixels in the screen. Not happy with that. I know is minidv, but I think it was a bad transfer. But how to know the real problem? PAL is better, but I want 24P, not PAL neither NTSC, but VINEMA (video cinema in 24p. I just invented that term ;) ).

Films here are at 24 frames. It´s the same. But when you transfer to film from 25 to 24, you lose some speed in the footage, so you get a diferent impression and slow rithm.

When you see a film in USA in TV, has been a conversion to create that 6 frames you dont have. But in europe we gain speed, so films on TV are faster than the same film on cinema. It´s not too much, but enough to feel it.

If you speak with a sound designer or musician, he is going to tell you he has lost speed and the notes are not tuned or the sound is different. In profesional cinema sometime you play with a single frame with music and sound to provoque fear, screems or rithm. So for me is very important to be accurate.

HUGS

[Chimpan-A]

You do realize that films run at 25 frames-per-second in Europe don't you?

PAL is much better than NTSC on a technical level (higher resolution, larger colour-space).

Why do you think a few years ago many Hollywood DV (and previously Hi8) filmmakers were using PAL cameras? They sure didn't have a problem converting 25fps to 24fps. It's been done for half a century (or more).

Um, not in the cinemas they don't. All movies on 35mm film run at 24 fps. Worldwide. In Europe,NZ and AUS (PAL teritories) when Hollywood studios release movies on DVD they are sped up to playback at 25fps, and the audio is pitch shifted to adjust for the 4% speed difference.

Yes it is true that in many cases shooting in 25fps and playing back at 24fps will not be noticed by many people - but so what? It interferes with the directors ability to tell their story exactly as they want to.

Shooting in 25fps and playing back at 24fps slows the action down by 4%. This can make performances feel less energetic and make the pace more lethargic.

I know of commercials directors who always shoot comedy at 22 or 23 fps and speed it back up because this gives the performances a little more snap and energy.

There is a difference betweenshooting 24 and shooting 25 but playing it back at 24. These days the audio is not so much a problem because we can pitch correct it much better, but still...

would it be so hard for panasonic to follow the sony z1 and provide both NTSC and PAL in the one camera? How much physical difference is there between the two cameras? Surely its just one micro chip or so? I'd pay an extra couple of hundred to have both versions in one. Even if their is a physical difference between the dv tape drives (which i dooubt because the z1 can do it) then I'd still accpet the option of both PAL or NTSC DV to the p2 and only one of them to tape.

THEN the camera would be truly perfect

cheers

-Chimpan-A

[MovieSwede]

Well I was watching Alien today at 25P and it still had its slow pacing ;) And I never heard from Ridley that the PAL version has destroyed his vision.

Lets face it, its mostly in our head the difference will occur. Its almost impossible for a human to tell the difference of 4% speed. If you can i suggest you start working as a traffic cop.

Shooting 25P 1080 with the PAL will actually give one advantage over the NTSC model. PAL use all 100 mbs on the 25 frames. When NTSC have to trough away 25% of it, when it record 24P 1080.

NTSC 1080 60i 100mbs = 1080 24P 75 mbs
PAL 1080 50i 100 mbs = 1080 25P 100 mbs = 1080 24P 96 mbs

So if you live in PAL land, buy the PAL unless you need 60P 720

[Chimpan-A]

Shooting 25P 1080 with the PAL will actually give one advantage over the NTSC model. PAL use all 100 mbs on the 25 frames. When NTSC have to trough away 25% of it, when it record 24P 1080.

NTSC 1080 60i 100mbs = 1080 24P 75 mbs
PAL 1080 50i 100 mbs = 1080 25P 100 mbs = 1080 24P 96 mbs

So if you live in PAL land, buy the PAL unless you need 60P 720

Actually the increased bitrate is an interesting argument that I hadn't considered...

but still, all i'm asking is how hard would it be to make an 'International' version of the camera that had both 50i and 60i? How much extra would it add to the cost? I still think most people in PAL countries would pay a little more for a dual model

cheers

Chimpan-A

[MovieSwede]

Yes agree i think many people would think it would be great if one cam could shoot

()= mbs

1080 at 60i (100) 50i (100) 30P (100) 25P(100) 24P (75)
720 at 60P (100) 50P (100) 30P (50) 25P (50) 24P (48/40)
576 at 50i (25) 25P (25)
480 at 60i (25) 30P (25) 24P (25)

Then could we in europe travel to the states and buy our cam there. The price we have to pay in europe aint fun.

what about
9000$ for a Z1
7000$ for an XL2
5000$ for an DVX100A

can only dream what an HVX will cost over here :(

[princigalli]

I don't transfer to film. My work doesn't require that. So the only thing I really need 24p for is being able to downconvert to NTSC for DVD in 24p and PAL for DVD in 24p, wthout ever having to play back at a different frame rate. It is a great and reliable option.

[Pascal_Parvex]

We just have to wait for the final specs. Maybe the NTSC-Version can do a variable frame rate of 25p, and that's it. And beside: 'Never underestimate the power of firmware hackers' :)

[araujofh]

Well I was watching Alien today at 25P and it still had its slow pacing ;) And I never heard from Ridley that the PAL version has destroyed his vision.

Lets face it, its mostly in our head the difference will occur. Its almost impossible for a human to tell the difference of 4% speed. If you can i suggest you start working as a traffic cop.

Shooting 25P 1080 with the PAL will actually give one advantage over the NTSC model. PAL use all 100 mbs on the 25 frames. When NTSC have to trough away 25% of it, when it record 24P 1080.

NTSC 1080 60i 100mbs = 1080 24P 75 mbs
PAL 1080 50i 100 mbs = 1080 25P 100 mbs = 1080 24P 96 mbs

So if you live in PAL land, buy the PAL unless you need 60P 720

This isn't fair, cause we also want to be able to do slow motion. Why do they have to do that? As far as I know HD is HD anywhere, it doesn't have PAL nor NTSC. So, why not stick the same HD specs for the PAL version?
We also want variable frame rate, you know?
And I don't really care for SD capturing. I have my DVX for that.

It does make sense in the DVX, but the HDX, come on, give us a break!

[fomoDVXpal]

relax. digital projection will save the day.

[princigalli]

I don't mind a DV input. You never know. Some people have to sell their DVX, FX1 or Z1 to get this camera so...

In any case I think the best thing for Europeans will be to fly to the US and get the camera. If it comes out in winter, I'll probably fly to Miami and get it there while enjoying some sun. Then I can even test the camera outdoors with light. Anything you test in Germany outdoors in winter will look horrible, and a 16:9, 1/3 inch CCD doing HD will definitely have big problems with low light.