Wanna peek? Sure you do!

[Aaron Koolen]

Video games now outsell Hollywood and no one plays a video game at 24fps, in fact the public lines Intels pockets just so they can push the frame rate to absurd levels.



Well, often games will drop framerate to get all the stuff on screen that they want, so you might run at 30 (or 25 in PAL land). They might run some stuff at 60, some at 30 - whatever. And also games are interactive, they need fast response times. Movies don't.

Aaron

[braw]

Well, I remember reading that attempts at 24 fps games has been done. So the game has a more "cinematic" feel. The only problem is that rendering motion blur is far more taxing to a video card than 100 fps. Plus, there are issues with each frame rendering correctly. The point of games is to feel immersed and realistic, so a higher frame rate is better to seem realistic since at missive frame rates, the motion blur occurs in our eyes like in reality.

But it's true, most cinematics are done at 24 fps.

Check this:

Frame rate in games (http://www.gamedesign.net/node/829)

Another reference (http://www.viperlair.com/articles/archive/editorials/fps.shtml)

I think games are a poor analogy to "film" or 24p video. :evil:

[kyle_doris]

robroysyd. it's not the pockets of intel, it's the pockets of nVidia and ATI :-P

sorry. video game nerd here.

[joelnet]

The VX2000 has no 30p mode.

Maybe it was 60p. Not my camera. We still had everyone asking how we did it and it still looked and felt cool projected.

To the message skimmer that said I hate 24 fps: I have repeatedly said I like 24fps and will be shooting at it if I get this new Panasonic. I hope that's clear enough for you.

[J.R. Hudson]

In fact you said "I'm 99.925% sure I'll end up at 24." That's for those of you that do not message skim.

60p? What the.....?

[fomoDVXpal]

Replying to some. We have never had 60fps on TV. We have had 30fps split in two and shown 60 times per second (60i). Plus it has been with the limitations of broadcast video which has lack of colour and deep depth of field (that we all hate in the cinema world – yet another debate) and historically lack of resolution. THESE are the things that REALLY make film different to video. Not to mention the tiny budgets to actually get any sort of quality on the TV. Movie budgets have MUCH more cash to make things sweeeeet.

No one is “undoing” anything here. The REALITY is that digital projectors and high frame rate cameras will make push the envelope in movie making. It is but a matter of time before people will be projecting in 60p (not 60i).

Why are people so stuck on this? Things change and so will this. Projectors will become frame rate agnostic. No one will lose here. It will be more choice for all. Everybody wins.


By the way, with the advent of HD the NTSC format is now only different in frame rates to PAL (plus not to mention the 24fps thing). But they all have the same amount of lines and colour space. The only reason that they kept the same frame rates was that it would be backward compatible. But fundamentally the PAL vs NTSC vs 24p is now simply a frame rate thing.

I’d also like to note that people are finding it hard to explain the phenomenon of the fast fps video games versus film 24p. No one has given a good enough reason to put that debate to bed.

My take on video games is that you need the faster frame rates to view detail at a faster rate because the brain works much faster than 24fps and so do the enemies! If faster fps were to be implemented in movies then the editing of action scenes would be faster because people could easily orientate themselves with the added detail.

J.Hudson. Mate, I read the previous posts. People still don’t realise the fixation with 24p is an emotional tie from a quirk in history. People just seem to think it’s a sweet spot rather than something they are used to…and emotionally attached to – after all ‘I saw Star Wars in 24p damn it’.

Anywho this debate has deep aesthetic questions that are yet to be discussed with many people in the industry. For instance has anyone seen ‘The Aviator’? Scorsese shot the early sequences with film that was around in the 40s and 50s [?] to depict the ‘old world’ feel of the 20s and 30s. HUH? Since when does that relate to reality? Me thinks he’s been watching to many movies. I doubt a teenager would get that reference, nor some adults or people from developing nations that don’t have the cultural/technological reference. I hate it when technological limitations dictate aesthetic choices (especially choices in the future!!).

My feeling is get the best image quality you can (which includes more frames) and let the story, directing, lighting, set and actors do the rest.

[David Jimerson]

Replying to some. We have never had 60fps on TV. We have had 30fps split in two and shown 60 times per second (60i). Plus it has been with the limitations of broadcast video which has lack of colour and deep depth of field (that we all hate in the cinema world – yet another debate) and historically lack of resolution. THESE are the things that REALLY make film different to video. Not to mention the tiny budgets to actually get any sort of quality on the TV. Movie budgets have MUCH more cash to make things sweeeeet.


If you will look back at what I said, you’ll find I did indeed say we’ve been watching “60i.” And by the way, I need only watch “American Idol” or Fox Sports to see 60p in action.




No one is “undoing” anything here. The REALITY is that digital projectors and high frame rate cameras will make push the envelope in movie making. It is but a matter of time before people will be projecting in 60p (not 60i).

Why are people so stuck on this? Things change and so will this. Projectors will abecome frame rate agnostic. No one will lose here. It will be more choice for all. Everybody wins.

That’s MY question – why are so many hell-bent on proving that 24p is going to die? I’m reminded of the “scientists” in the ‘50s who insisted that by 1979 we’d all be taking our food in the form of pills, living in disposable houses, and talking on picture phones. You can make arguments that all of those things are “better” from a scientific or engineering point of view, but what matters is what people WANT. People have an uncanny ability to frustrate the best-laid plans of people who think they know better.

One cannot deny that 24p has an aesthetic quality that people are drawn to.



By the way, with the advent of HD the NTSC format is now only different in frame rates to PAL (plus not to mention the 24fps thing). But they all have the same amount of lines and colour space. The only reason that they kept the same frame rates was that it would be backward compatible. But fundamentally the PAL vs NTSC vs 24p is now simply a frame rate thing.

So what?



I’d also like to note that people are finding it hard to explain the phenomenon of the fast fps video games versus film 24p. No one has given a good enough reason to put that debate to bed.

Here’s the good-enough reason. A video game is a video game. A movie is a movie. They’re not the same thing. You might as well be saying “people like to watch soap operas! They’re shot in 60i! They’re really popular! Explain that!!” Or heck, game shows.



My take on video games is that you need the faster frame rates to view detail at a faster rate because the brain works much faster than 24fps and so do the enemies! If faster fps were to be implemented in movies then the editing of action scenes would be faster because people could easily orientate themselves with the added detail.

Well, there you go – they’re different animals.



Hudson. Mate, I read the previous posts. People still don’t realise the fixation with 24p is an emotional tie from a quirk in history. People just seem to think it’s a sweet spot rather than something they are used to…and emotionally attached to – after all ‘I saw Star Wars in 24p damn it’.


Why is so hard to understand that some people are drawn to the aesthetic qualities of it? You belittle John for, more or less, being stuck in the past. Just because something has been done for a long time doesn't mean it needs changing.



HUH? Since when does that relate to reality?



My feeling is get the best image quality you can (which includes more frames) and let the story, directing, lighting, set and actors do the rest.

I think the fundamental issue here is that we’re speaking different languages. “Image quality” and “perfect representation of reality” are very distinct concepts. Narrative film work is an art form. Art need not imitate reality, and indeed, many, if not most, of the greatest works of art take many liberties with reality.

What does paint and canvas have to do with reality when a stunningly in-focus color photograph can match reality “exactly”? Why do people still bother to paint? Why represent Campbell’s soup cans with neon colors when the label is (duh!) red and white? “Since when does that relate to reality?”

Art isn't about a strict, no-liberties representation of the actual physical world. You say a faster frame rate is "better" because it's "more real." Well, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.

[jaredalv]

Anyone know what camera that is in the March Videography mag on page 28?

Thanks,
Jared

[robroysyd]

There's some pretty amazing assertions being made here. Something along the lines of people being drawn to the look of 24fps. Sorry but the only place you can see 24fps is in a cinema. That's a whole different world to watching something on TV.
The only scientific way to test that would be to shoot the same scene with the same camera at 24fps and then at 60fps and project both at the native frame rate. I know of no such experiment being done. You need to reduce the test to only one variable and I'd suggest it needs to be a double blind test, accross a range of age groups and demographics.
The only scientific tests I know of were done decades ago with 70mm. The results showed that frame rates beyond 60 fps produced no increase in perceived temporal resolution. I believe that Sony in conjunction with a few other serious researchers have been doing some work in this area, I haven't seen the results or the test methodology so I really shouldn't comment, perhaps other are in the know and can add to this.
I suspect their reason to pour serious dollars into developing a 60p HD system may have been based on this research, they're certainly not a company to pour millions into something without good reason.
As to why film is 24fps, well I've heard a few theories and I don't think it matters, the bigger question is why did it stay at 24fps and why is 35mm the only commercially viable projection format? Simple answer, cost! Nothing to do with artistic values here.
120 minutes of 35mm is a pretty weighty thing to move, the same movie shot and projected in 70mm doesn't just cost more to shoot and print, it costs way more to project. Try running that 70mm film at 60fps and your costs get very high indeed, I'd suggest your already very expensive print isn't going to last too long. Sure it's going to look stunning but will the mug public pay more to see it that way. Well even that's the wrong question, better one is how far can we cut back the techincal quality and still put bums on seats.
Same goes even for lens quality shooting 35mm, the very best lenses are way better than the cheapest ones, they cost a lot more too.
But with digital film all these issues pretty well vanish. A digital 'print' costs next to nothing to transport, very cheap to project and way cheaper than film to shoot on.
Here's perhaps a more interesting issue. No doubt the next generation of digital film cameras will offer a wider choice of aspect ratios. That's something that can be evaluated now, as movies are shot in both at the same frame rate, we're down to just one variable. How far should we widen the image, 1.85:1, 2.35:1 or beyond?

[Haakon]

Hmm... HVX discussion, anyone?

[fomoDVXpal]

Jubal28. Contrary to what you may think I was actually replying to many people - not just you.

I hope I haven't offended you. Just talking. :)

You quote: “perfect representation of reality”. Did I say that? Who are you quoting? I said that Scorsese is using technological defects of the past to represent something that many people simply won't comprehend. I’d prefer him to use the aesthetics that speak to people across the globe on a gut level - like set, lighting, actors etc.


Robroysyd. The 'ideal' width would be either 1.618:1 or double that. Golden Proportion ;)

[kai]

What does paint and canvas have to do with reality when a stunningly in-focus color photograph can match reality “exactly”? Why do people still bother to paint? Why represent Campbell’s soup cans with neon colors when the label is (duh!) red and white? “Since when does that relate to reality?”

Art isn't about a strict, no-liberties representation of the actual physical world. You say a faster frame rate is "better" because it's "more real." Well, you're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I disagree.

Beautifully and perfectly spoken. The defense rests ;)

[Michael_Bott]

The 24p argument cannot be resolved by scientific argument, statistics, better, worse etc.. You either get it or you don't. Looking at the threads here it sometimes occurs like trying to explain colour to a blind person.

It matters nothing how or why we have come to appreciate the qualities of media running at 24 frames per second. What matters is that we DO have a different response and how it is used in the hands of an artist. It is merely a tool, or colour if you like, in the palette available. The DVX made that 'colour' available to DV shooters and that's what made it so special and why the HVX will be an equally if not more important addition to the technology.

For me it cannot be expressed better than the result of my own test (study:evil: ) carried out with my DVX. I filmed two 16:9 clips of my son Jon wandering about in our garden - one 50i, one 25p. Both essentially the same - just him walking about with no particular purpose, me following and circling, handheld. I then showed them to my wife (who knows nothing of framerates, interlacing etc).

I asked her if she could see any difference.

"No, not much" she said.

I asked her if one made her FEEL any different to the other.

After a moment she said: "In the second one I felt like I wanted to know where Jon had been - and where he was going to".

I dont need to tell anyone who understands this which clip she was responding to in this way.

[Mediacre]

I didn't want to jump in this, because this is just an old and done with argument. But I thought, what the heck, why not. 24fps or 24p/25p is the standard for filmmaking and will still be for ages to come. It's not about quality, smoothness, shaprness or whatever. It's about feeling. So, it's pointless to point all the advanatges of 60p or 30p or whatever. It's not about quality. If it was about quality, we would have never abandoned Technicolor, we would never be migrating from 35mm to HD. We would have IMAX Technicolor now. That about sumes it all.

[joelnet]

In fact you said "I'm 99.925% sure I'll end up at 24." That's for those of you that do not message skim.

60p? What the.....?

Oops. It was late last night when I banged 60p out.

After a little research I see it shoots at something like 15fps in progressive. I was told by my friend it was 30 when we were testing before the shoot which is why I originally typed that. We also changed in and out of progressive for different shots. It's possible he actually said 1/30th of a second and not 30fps.

Yes - "I'm 99.925% sure I'll end up at 24." is what I said. Thanks for quoting accurately. Hopefully that'll clear that misconception by some about my position up.

I really didn't intend to get off on this tangent. I really just stopped back in because I got an email from DVXuser.com about NAB and I'm pretty jazzed about this new camera. I figured this would be the best place to keep up on the latest info.

[David Jimerson]

There's some pretty amazing assertions being made here. Something along the lines of people being drawn to the look of 24fps. Sorry but the only place you can see 24fps is in a cinema. That's a whole different world to watching something on TV.
The only scientific way to test that would be to shoot the same scene with the same camera at 24fps and then at 60fps and project both at the native frame rate. I know of no such experiment being done. You need to reduce the test to only one variable and I'd suggest it needs to be a double blind test, accross a range of age groups and demographics.


No, that would not be correct. When recording 24p with the DVX, for example, the video is recorded at 60i on tape and can be played back on any TV. And when it is, it retains every bit of the 24p aesthetic.

(And if you’re going to be at NAB, you can attend my session where I’m going to demonstrate exactly that.)


You will also note that Hollywood movies retain every bit of their aesthetic when played on TV, too.

[Gary_McClurg]

Originally Posted by robroysyd

There's some pretty amazing assertions being made here. Something along the lines of people being drawn to the look of 24fps. Sorry but the only place you can see 24fps is in a cinema. That's a whole different world to watching something on TV.

All I can say is you don't like the 24p look get the Sony. The reason we want the panny is because of the cinema look.

My guess is that 75% of the people here want to make films.

Oops I forgot I'm not calling them films anymore I'm calling them features.

[bilgami]

BiLGaMi Video Productions :angry:

Why is it that the JVC -Hd 100 is all over the place in magazines, but the HVX200 is no where to be found. Its two wks to NAB when do we get to see more its not as if Sony can steal anything from Pany and make use it for NAB.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

[Gary_McClurg]

Just guessing here.

But sometimes you have to keep tooting your horn when your not as good as something else.

[kyle_doris]

for the people who are getting really angry about this whole move to 24p, think about it this way...

regardless of what is better or not. 24fps is still what 35mm film uses, and whether that's for economic reasons or not, if i was ever in a position to have my film/video screened somewhere nice where they required a film-out, i sure as hell would rather pay the money for 24fps then 60 or 30. so in effect, shooting @ 24p is still just most economic.

this is assuming movies actually were projected @ those speeds, which they aren't. i'm just saying, saying it's for economic purposes isn't a bad thing, since most of us have to pay for our own s**t

[redindian]

As for trade offs, you're right and I would trade a manual exchangeble lens for the 720p capability (if I have 1080 24p, I don't think I would shoot in 720p anyways) or even for 1080. I'm not as hung on resolution as many people are. The tools are more important the resoltuoo alone. I would take a 720 24p with exchangeble manual lens any day over a 1080 24p prosumer. When blown to 35mm, the audience won't notice the difference as much as they would a nicely done cinematography work.

For the record, I do know the HVX200 will be a great camera. I just wish they haven't crippled the camera once more. The reason for this is not cost, but lmititng people who would need a more expensive camera of using a HVX200 instead. Don't matter what anybody says, that's the real reason. How much more could exchangeable lens cost? The Canon has been doing it since Hi8 days. The thing with an exchangeble lens and more pro form factor like the XL2 and HD100 is the gamma of posibilities it opens. Have you seen how huge is the after market for the XL1 series?

you will always end up being limited to what it's lens can see. Not the case with an exchangeable.


I have the same thots...what is the exchangable lens mount going to cost ? $1000 more ? If economics is a big concern - then what about P2 Media ? Maybe its just me, but I wud have paid up $1000 more for a interchangeable lens. That would make this the last camera i buy for the next 5 years!

'Resolution' v/s 'Interchangeable Lens'

Drawbacks of JVC:
Lack of 1080/24p- 720/24p is still HD and does blow up well.
GOP/4:2:0 - Uncompressed signal is available
Cost of HD Lens - But the fact that its interchangeable opens more possiblities for the camera's vision. You can rent or buy as you need.

Drawbacks of Pana
Fixed Lens: Can buy a slap on wide-angle or telephoto. Also mini-35 can be used.



ram

[scharky]

Well, since it looks like you want to drag it back to this, let me address you list a little bit. First of all, the HVX will also do 30P in 720 and 1080, the JVC does not. Second, the JVC compression is not PRO HD, it is PRO HDV, and where did you get the info on a CRT viewfinder. Also, no one has said that the HVX will not output uncompressed, and finally, in HD there is no such thing as PAL or NTSC, it is all HD.

[SergejIvanovits]

there is no such thing as PAL or NTSC, it is all HD.Yes but there is 50/60 Hz.

[Barry_S]

redindian--please refrain from posting tables that include unknown or mis-information without qualifying it as such. This is a very high traffic, high profile forum for the site, and I'm deleting the table because it's a mess. If you want to post a better version that includes whether the specifications are confirmed, or just your conjecture, you're free to do so. Thanks.

[redindian]

hmm... so what was so wrong abt that you had to delete it ?
Is that about JVC having a CRT (it was posted in DVinfo -so put a"?") or that JVC has a E version which does both NTSC+PAL 24p25p...its in the official uk press release.

Maybe you cud have corrected any errors...
anyway - maybe on apr 19 we can post a full table. I was just trying to summarize visually, tables are just easier to read/compare.

[Barry_S]

I agree, tables are nice for comparison, but it needs to include verified and released specs and it needs to be readable. If you want to do a new version that's cool by me.

[ccroo]

Originally Posted by robroysyd

There's some pretty amazing assertions being made here. Something along the lines of people being drawn to the look of 24fps. Sorry but the only place you can see 24fps is in a cinema. That's a whole different world to watching something on TV.

All I can say is you don't like the 24p look get the Sony. The reason we want the panny is because of the cinema look.

My guess is that 75% of the people here want to make films.

Oops I forgot I'm not calling them films anymore I'm calling them features.
Features? How about "movies?"

[SergejIvanovits]

JVC has a E version which does both NTSC+PAL 24p25p...its in the official uk press release.

The E version can record 24p or 25p. It isn't ntsc it is a clean 24p recorded as a 24fps on the tape to intercut seamlessly with 16mm or 35 mm. The prise is 6000 euros.

[Aaron Koolen]

Agreed, can the mod split the topic please?

Aaron

[thisiswells]

Why is it that the JVC -Hd 100 is all over the place in magazines, but the HVX200 is no where to be found.

Sometimes great products sell themselves and don't need advertising : )

EDIT: Yes, that is a strong implication the HVX200 it a great product and it doesn't need advertising. It is not an implication that the JVC is not a great product and therefore requires advertising. My preference would be to use an HVX200 and my post should reflect this. I am an enthusiastic Panasonic camera user posting on a primarily Panasonic board and am posting positive commentary on Panasonic's marketing efforts. The company clearly recognises what the means of the internet can offer--good and bad--and is making the best of it for their purposes. So, hurrah!! brian wells

[Barry_Green]

Sorry but the only place you can see 24fps is in a cinema.
Not true. You can watch a 24fps DVD on your computer DVD player and see 24 frames per second, no pulldown, no modification, just raw 24fps. I also see 24fps all the time in my editing program, Vegas removes the pulldown and displays 24 frames per second.


The only scientific way to test that would be to shoot the same scene with the same camera at 24fps and then at 60fps and project both at the native frame rate. I know of no such experiment being done. You need to reduce the test to only one variable and I'd suggest it needs to be a double blind test, accross a range of age groups and demographics.
Should be easy enough. Though I don't know why we'd bother; people watch 24fps telecine'd film all the time, and know that it looks different (and usually preferable to) 60fps video. And yes, I do call interlaced video 60fps, it has a lot more in common with 60p than it does with 30p.

Not that it's always preferable. Remember the MTV awards a couple of years ago, when they broadcast it in 24p? People complained roundly and solidly about that. We like our live events live, and we like our fiction at 24fps.


As to why film is 24fps, well I've heard a few theories and I don't think it matters, the bigger question is why did it stay at 24fps and why is 35mm the only commercially viable projection format?
Film is 24fps because somebody set the standard at 24fps, doesn't really matter when or why. But as to why it's still 24fps, and why 35mm is the only commercially viable projection format? Because that's the way it is. Anywhere you go in the world, you can find 35mm projectors. They're already bought, paid for, amortized, and installed. A 35mm film can be projected in Indonesia, in South Africa, in Brazil, in Canada, in Topeka Kansas, anywhere. It's an installed base.

I, as a content producer, have a choice: I can choose to produce a product that can be distributed worldwide, or I can get on some sort of kick that my content will demand a new distribution format, and make my product incompatible with the rest. Guess how that'll turn out? Lucas demanded theaters show digital projection of SWII, and he actually had the clout (and the audience demand) to get a little of that off the ground. But where did it go from there? Every film released by Hollywood gets released on 35mm film prints. It is the way it is, and it is the way it will continue to be, until maintenance-free digital projectors and satellite-feed receivers and enough hard disk storage come down in price to the point where it's affordable and sensible to replace those 35mm projectors in Botswana, Timbuktu, Tokyo, Taiwan, Sao Paulo, Norway, Fiji, etc. And that is not gonna happen when people keep talking about $100,000 projectors.


But with digital film all these issues pretty well vanish. A digital 'print' costs next to nothing to transport, very cheap to project and way cheaper than film to shoot on.
But only if the distribution medium is installed. And it isn't, and it isn't likely going to be for many, many years.

For example: you could argue that HDV is better quality than DVD. I, as a producer, intend to release a product. Should I release it on HDV tape? Or DVD? HDV tape could be higher quality, but... Which do you think is going to sell more, and bring more revenue? As a conservative estimate, I'd say that I'll sell 99.99999999999999% of the product as DVD, and 00.0000000000001% on HDV tape. So how much effort will I put into packaging, marketing, and promoting the HDV version? Exactly. And so it will be with digital distribution. Film, and 24fps prints, are going to be around for a long, long time. As will DVD. And SD television.

Doesn't mean that's the way we want it to be.

But that's the way it IS, and content producers have to deal with reality. At least, if they want to make a living at it.

[SergejIvanovits]

Just one more important thing. The 35 mm film is a form for copy protection as well. If it was a digital projection than to make a copy is just a matter of time the costs are nothing compeered to make a 1:1 copy of the celluloid.

[J.R. Hudson]

Doesn't mean that's the way we want it to be....

...But that's the way it IS...

Your entire reply was well said as always Barry and this reminds me of a QOUTE from Platoon by Tom Berenger's BARNES character:

"Death? What you all know about death?"

No wait; sorry not that one.

"There's the way it ought to be, and there's the way it is. "

[David Jimerson]

Not true. You can watch a 24fps DVD on your computer DVD player and see 24 frames per second, no pulldown, no modification, just raw 24fps. I also see 24fps all the time in my editing program, Vegas removes the pulldown and displays 24 frames per second.

Not to mention watching a 24p DVD through a progressive-scan DVD player on a progressive TV.

[Rich Lee]

Barnes!

[saru]

Hey guys.
I've been on this board quite a long time, though never posted before.

I think you guys are clearly great and have contributed a lot to develop a great camera, an up-coming HVX200.

Well, I made a phone call to Panasonic yesterday, and asked few questions about
this camera. (I know some sales rep who works there)

I kinda promised not to tell anyone what I heard, but, you know I really can't
resist to do that...

So please take this as just a rumor, don't take it seriously until official announcement
will be made at NAB next week.

* 82mm thread fixed lens
* Two P2 slots

Tape drive? well, you'll know :happy:

[speedbump]

'82mm threads'?!

Do you mean 72mm?

Two slots, I figured as much.

The whole '24P vs highest-possible-framerate-you-can-get' part of this thread is a troll. Buzz off. Bzzzzzz!

Wish I were going to NAB this year, if only to hoist a brewski with my online family.

[speedbump]

...How about that Matt McDermitt, anyway?

[speedbump]

in another transparent effort to diffuse the divisive direction this thread has been going lately:

FOAMY ALERT!!!!

http://www.illwillpress.com/vault.html

[joelnet]

I kinda promised not to tell anyone what I heard, but, you know I really can't
resist to do that...


Well... you could tell us if you were more excited or less excited after you talked to the rep. You could also tell us if it was more money or less money too! ;-)

I want to see a side by side against the higher end cameras.

Oh, I saw Sin City today. Wow! I saw the new Star Wars trailer too. Wow, it looked great. Much better than the last one. Looks like it'll be a better movie too.

I'm not going to say film is dead or anything controversial like that... but for heavy special effects movies in digital world's it's a heck of a good choice.

[thisiswells]

...How about that Matt McDermitt, anyway?

Matt from the Cinematography forums posts here??

brian wells

[saru]

Well... you could tell us if you were more excited or less excited after you talked to the rep. You could also tell us if it was more money or less money too! ;-)


I GOT excited, and really am. :)
The guy said they were pushing really hard to make it as "mini-VariCam".

And for the lens, yes, 82mm! Not 72mm!

For the price, the rumor we've been hearing is kinda right!
6500+2000+2000="10000"

[reservoir]

*EVERYBODY* seems to have a friend who knows the scoop but can't quite confirm *ANYTHING*......as usual.

So what is the deal with 82mm? Would that be better or worse than what we have now the the 72mm DVX lens? Just curious!! ~reservoir~

[saru]

*EVERYBODY* seems to have a friend who knows the scoop but can't quite confirm *ANYTHING*......as usual.


He he he, that's true!

[Wadro]

Well well well....82mm over 72 mm is going to be a real argument. 1st of all, there will be some that say "size doesn't matter" then there will be others who say "It's not the size that matters it's how you light it. Either case it's great to change the subject from the 24P argument that has been going on for days now. If 24P was not important then we would not have this forum, we'd be on the XL1 Watchdog list.......(I own 2 xl1's) So let's get on to the lens argument!!
Which I know nothing about. All my cams have had 72mmmmmmmmmmmmm. OOP's

[Aaron Koolen]

OK, can someone tell me why 82 would be any better? I know almost nothing about lenses, other than they clog up if you change tape brands. :)

Aaron

[speedbump]

Bigger is better, right?

[Wadro]

Ya see, I was right!!

[Barry_Green]

OK, can someone tell me why 82 would be any better?
I'll offer up some speculation, but I wish Bill Turner would comment...

To me, the only valid reason to change the filter size from the DVX would be: either the lens has a wider wide-angle, or it has a longer telephoto. If it's a longer lens, but retains the same wide-angle aspect, then I believe you would have to increase the diameter of the lens in order to make it work. Or, if it's the same length optically, but has a wider wide-angle, you'd again have to make the diameter bigger.

That's why the PD170 could have 58mm threads, but when they made the Z1 (with a 30% wider wide-angle) they had to bump up to 72mm threads.

So, if there's truth that the lens is 82mm, then I'd say either we're getting a wider wide-angle, or more telephoto. I vote for more telephoto!

As far as 2 P2 slots... I would almost consider that a "duh"... if it only has one slot, its usefulness is significantly limited as compared to it having two. Two slots lets you do the hot-swap thing, whereas one wouldn't allow for continuous takes. I'd hope for more (the SPX has five) but I guess it depends on the size of the camera and whether there's room for more slots.

[saru]

My main concern is all the mini35 variants.
We all have been developed DIY mini35, based on DVX's 72mm threads.
If HVX has 82mm, we'd have to search for bigger acromat close-ups and so on.

But as Barry explained why it could be 82mm, there must be some good reason for that.

[thisiswells]

Yeah and there's no chance of a ground glass resolving a thousand lines.
Even the Pro35 looks soft in HD.

[Mediacre]

Correct if I'm wrong, but the bigger the glass, the more light goes in, so the better the image. It might also be because they wanted to make a good HD lens for it and increased the size. I mean, look at how bigger cine HD lenses are in comparison the Broadcast ones. I for one like the 82mm. Since I don't have a DVX or any other prosumer, I have no money invested on 72mm accessories. I have a mattebox for my filters and my wide angle adapter is 90mm, so a step down ring should do it in case I need to use it. About what barry said, I would rather have a wide lens. You can never have it wide enough, unless you are into nature videography. So you need tele. But specially for filmmaking, wide is more useful.
For me it's good news anyway it comes.

[ivan]

this is a really incredible thread about a really amazing cam!
i think that it really will kick ass.. but it looks like its going to be sold like printers... sell the machine for a low price and then get the money back with the ink/p2modules...
the price of the modules is just extortionate! why does a 4gig module cost about 2k$? you can get sandisks extreme3 4gb flash drives with a 20MB write-rate for a quarter of that price...
2all the tape fanatics:
you cant compare the p2modules with dv tapes! if you want compare prices do it with dvcProHD tapes... these cost about 80$! now multiply with your tape stock@home... how many p2 cards could you buy?? (and hell how many sandisks could you buy?)

my some cents...

[robroysyd]

A couple of things come to mind here. Possibly the P2 system needs a faster write speed than the Sandisk extreme, that'd certainly explain the price increase. I don't think the comparison with printers is fair, there's a limit to how many P2 cards you're going to need. Tape and ink are ongoings, P2 cards aren't. There's another BIG plus to P2 cards, much faster capture.
Up against them though is Sony's BluRay. Personally my preference is for P2 cards even though BluRay is way cheaper per minute of footage, pretty fast to capture from and also re-usable. The cost of P2 card versus tape though isn't all that simple, presumably unlike a broadcaster you might want to eventually copy your footage to tape. Where P2 has it's greatest strength is for ENG, this was I thought Pannies original push for the format but so far I don't know how successful that's been, networks can be very conservative.
There is a small but significant down side to the P2 system though. The risk of loosing a whole cards worth of footage if one goes down, it's got to be way less error prone than tape but if you have a problem I think it's going to be a big one. Second issue is they're a pretty valuable and hard to identify asset. No one's likely to steal a tape, a P2 card might be more attractive. I hope these things have an embedded serial number to discourage theft.
Sorry that this has nothing specifically to do with the camera but this seems to be one of the few concrete things anyone who can say has said about it and is therefore worth talking about.
Whatever transpires I'm certain as Panasonic are building it, it's going to be a great effort on their part. I'll admit I'm pretty impressed with the Z1 but I'll be the first to say very loudly that I doubt it would have ever happened without the DVX100 to give Sony a well deserved kick in the butt.
There's a lot of speculation here about the cost of this camera. I don't have a clue as to that other than to add this, every time you add a bit more to the quality which adds a little to the cost it adds a lot to the sell price. Simple reason is less people buy it. That's why high end cameras cost so much more, it's very hard making something in between. Anyone at the pointy end of the game can afford almost anything so you might as well make it as good as technology will permit, if your production has a budget over a few million the cost of the camera is a minor issue. For the indie film maker it can be a huge cost impost so trying to find the right performance / cost balance is very tricky for a manufacturer.
That's why the DVX100 has been such a huge success, if you were even vaguely serious about your craft you could afford one, then once there was enough of them out there those that couldn't afford to buy could rent or just plain borrow. I'd suggest if Panasonic could sell as many Varicams as they did DVX100s they'd be maybe 30% of the current price, the issue is even at 30% of the current price how many more would buy one?

[Tzedekh]

Two slots lets you do the hot-swap thing, whereas one wouldn't allow for continuous takes.
It has to have at least two P2 slots, as Jan has mentioned that hot-swapping will be possible.

[Jan_Crittenden]

[QUOTE]Up against them though is Sony's BluRay. Personally my preference is for P2 cards even though BluRay is way cheaper per minute of footage, pretty fast to capture from and also re-usable. The cost of P2 card versus tape though isn't all that simple, presumably unlike a broadcaster you might want to eventually copy your footage to tape.

Actually with this may be an alternative, tape doesn't offer half the benefits of keeping as data. And I know that many will use tape initially as that is easy, and even then there will be some savings as you don't have to save allof the flubbed shots, like everythig up to the best Take 21. ;-) Most of the broadcasters work against the future model, like at NY1, they have everything on a Data server and have been orking this way for years. Many put the footage into the server and ther it lives.



Where P2 has it's greatest strength is for ENG, this was I thought Pannies original push for the format but so far I don't know how successful that's been, networks can be very conservative.

I don't know that it is conservatism but rather how do you changeover to a IT centric reality. The larger the organization, the more difficult this concept is. The biggest successes we have outside of NY, are smaller markets where they only save the broadcast. Actually, I feel the indie is perfectly suited to P2, and they can be totally in control.


There is a small but significant down side to the P2 system though. The risk of loosing a whole cards worth of footage if one goes down, it's got to be way less error prone than tape but if you have a problem I think it's going to be a big one.

Actually I am not sure how this would be. The most you would lose, say a power failure is the second or so at the point of loss of power. Everything else on the card would still be there. Loseing a card, well that is is the same risk as losing a tape.


Second issue is they're a pretty valuable and hard to identify asset. No one's likely to steal a tape, a P2 card might be more attractive. I hope these things have an embedded serial number to discourage theft.

They absolutely do!


Whatever transpires I'm certain as Panasonic are building it, it's going to be a great effort on their part. I'll admit I'm pretty impressed with the Z1 but I'll be the first to say very loudly that I doubt it would have ever happened without the DVX100 to give Sony a well deserved kick in the butt.

And the only problems with the Z1 is the MPEG2 long GOP, 4:2:0, compressed audio, poor low light performance with a very narrow latitude and no 24P.


There's a lot of speculation here about the cost of this camera. I don't have a clue as to that other than to add this, every time you add a bit more to the quality which adds a little to the cost it adds a lot to the sell price.

;-) But the cool part here is that because of the P2 we are able to offer in the price range a DVCPRO HD camcorder. That is a major kick in quality at a huge reduction in price. Sorry I just had to say that your theory doesn't necessarily hold water, depending on perspective.

Best regards,

Jan

[joelnet]

I would rather have a wide lens. You can never have it wide enough, unless you are into nature videography. So you need tele. But specially for filmmaking, wide is more useful.


I agree with you there. Unless you're doing wildlife (or spying on your neighbors), wide angle is more useful for filmmaking and would be my preference too.

If the larger lens added better low light capability that would be a great benefit too.

[Daygola814]

I agree with you there. Unless you're doing wildlife (or spying on your neighbors), wide angle is more useful for filmmaking and would be my preference too.

If the larger lens added better low light capability that would be a great benefit too.

I just hope this camera has a 800x digital zoom so i can spy on people in Rome. :) Can someone explain how the P2 security (serial number) works? That seems like a pretty cool feature.

Thanks,
Paul

I really wish this camera had an interchangeable lense. I bought this a while back and I was really hoping to use it....

http://www.dvinfo.net/canon/images/images17.php

:grin:

[Shaw]

You can do digital zoom in post if you need to. A camera function would be useless (and very consumerish).

The increase in lens size might also be due to a larger imager... To get the same FOV you would almost have to increase the lens size. Just a thought.

[Barry_S]

[QUOTE=robroysyd]
...And the only problems with the Z1 is the MPEG2 long GOP, 4:2:0, compressed audio, poor low light performance with a very narrow latitude and no 24P...


Well, it looks like we can assume the HVX200 dynamic range and low light sensitivity are superior to the Z1. I think many of us suspected as much, but this seems like a confirmation.

[Daygola814]

I was joking about the digital zoom. digital zoom looks like crap. :thumbsup:
Sorry, I should probably stop with the dumb jokes. I was serious about the P2 serial number question though. Anyone?

[Neil Rowe]

..its just a serial number on the card.. probably stamped into the metal casing or on a very stuck sticker on it. that way you can track an item.. like a vin # on a car.. or the serial # on the DVX under the eypeice or on any U.S. "paper" currency. each one made has its own # so you know if its yours if it was stolen or what not.

[Terry_Lasater]

Or, if a "bad batch" of cards is discovered after they leave the manufacturer, then they could be recalled/replaced, etc. Also, Panasonic could track them through the sales chain.

[bgundu]

There's some info here on the copy protection technology on SD cards:

http://www.sdcard.org/sd_memorycard/index.html

[Daygola814]

oh ok. i thought it was something like they wont work on other cameras, just your own.
thanks!

[Jarred Land]

actually on P2 cards part of the metadata records the Camera serial and the Card info to the clip, so you can see exactly what camera and what card was used to capture that clip.. this is also where if it is GPS capable it can tell you the exact location the camera was as well when it took the clip.

[Terry_Lasater]

I'll have to remember that when I get my five HVX cameras. ;)

[Daygola814]

actually on P2 cards part of the metadata records the Camera serial and the Card info to the clip, so you can see exactly what camera and what card was used to capture that clip.. this is also where if it is GPS capable it can tell you the exact location the camera was as well when it took the clip.

That's scary.... pretty cool!

[MikeFawcett]

this is a really incredible thread about a really amazing cam!
i think that it really will kick ass.. but it looks like its going to be sold like printers... sell the machine for a low price and then get the money back with the ink/p2modules...
the price of the modules is just extortionate! why does a 4gig module cost about 2k$? you can get sandisks extreme3 4gb flash drives with a 20MB write-rate for a quarter of that price...
2all the tape fanatics:
you cant compare the p2modules with dv tapes! if you want compare prices do it with dvcProHD tapes... these cost about 80$! now multiply with your tape stock@home... how many p2 cards could you buy?? (and hell how many sandisks could you buy?)

my some cents...

320 to 640 mbs on P2 cards

[MikeFawcett]

actually on P2 cards part of the metadata records the Camera serial and the Card info to the clip, so you can see exactly what camera and what card was used to capture that clip.. this is also where if it is GPS capable it can tell you the exact location the camera was as well when it took the clip.

It's also a good way to track lost or stolen cards when they show up at a Pawn shop, the used equipment market or Panasonic for service.

[redindian]

I agree with you there. Unless you're doing wildlife (or spying on your neighbors), wide angle is more useful for filmmaking and would be my preference too.

If the larger lens added better low light capability that would be a great benefit too.

I vote for WA - but those telephotos can give you shallow DOF and possibly great bokeh..(?)

[Neil Rowe]

actually on P2 cards part of the metadata records the Camera serial and the Card info to the clip, so you can see exactly what camera and what card was used to capture that clip.. this is also where if it is GPS capable it can tell you the exact location the camera was as well when it took the clip.

.. thats pretty cool!

[Mediacre]

I vote for WA - but those telephotos can give you shallow DOF and possibly great bokeh..(?)


Yeah, but you need to have enough room to back the camera up and zoom in. It's almost never possible when shooting internal locations.

[David Jimerson]

Yeah, but you need to have enough room to back the camera up and zoom in. It's almost never possible when shooting internal locations.

YES. Cramped locations suck. There should be ordnances passed across the country requiring each new house to be built with one wild wall in each room (can be the same one for adjacent rooms), one outlet per foot of wall space, dolly track along the ceiling or floor, sound-dampening material in each wall, especially exterior walls . . .

[Mediacre]

What one needs is a Mini35(the original) then say good bye to dof problems. I would be interesting to see how many people would be able to tell they are not watching film when they see 1080 24p shot with the mini35.

[David Jimerson]

Personally, I think shallow DOF is overrated. But that's just one guy's opinion.

[mr._guiyotinne]

DOF is like 24p, it´s another part of the ecuation, like good lighting... If you have everything and then mini and micro don´t loose so much resolution, then it will be for sure difficult to see the difference for normal viewers... At least with 16mm.

Just my hopes...

[J.R. Hudson]

Shallow DOF is most definatley a stylistic choice and can be used to great effect as one the 'tricks of the trade'; unfortunately it's used alot in an attempt to create something interesting in an otherwise uninteresting composition or to cheat and force the viewer to look at something that could have been done with careful framing. Too many people think that creating a shallow DOF makes them a skilled cinematgrapher I think.

Anothers mans opinion

[soarprod]

I'm happy with the range of the DVX - hope the HVX is the same.

[shAi]

i defiantly expect for more tele!!!! not just for shallow DOF. there are some basic tasks than can't be done with the DVX's lens range. and i bet we'll get it this time.

[David Jimerson]

Shallow DOF is most definatley a stylistic choice and can be used to great effect as one the 'tricks of the trade'; unfortunately it's used alot in an attempt to create something interesting in an otherwise uninteresting composition or to cheat and force the viewer to look at something that could have been done with careful framing. Too many people think that creating a shallow DOF makes them a skilled cinematgrapher I think.

Anothers mans opinion

I totally agree, John; it can be a powerful tool when used effectively. I don't mean to say it has no value -- of course it's part of the equation -- it just seems to be bandied about much like "low-light performance" -- useful, yes, but nearly as important as implied. 24p is a bedrock requirement for a good, solid film look, but I can't think of a single instance of shallow DOF in a movie which stands out in my mind.

And in fact, when I'm thinking of some of the most impressive shots in films, they're all of deep DOF.

Don't get me wrong; I'm highly interested in being able to achieve it. I like a good, well-placed rack focus as much as the next guy. I just don't think it makes or breaks a camera for filmmaking purposes.

[Darth Bunnykins]

Following the various threads about this new panny hd mutha. I am jonesin' for more info. Can't wait for the unveiling. Didn't buy the DVX 'cause I wanted hi def and 24p. The xl2 came and...no hi def. Next were the sony HDV cams....just not right for me and no 24p. But this HVX 200? Me thinks this is the one. And for the record, I absolutelly love the idea of no tape/p2 recording. Brilliant. Man I am so frickin' excited, NAB can't come soon enough. I truly beleive that this is the camera that will be the start of a new indie revolution. Hell, even for just shooting tv programs, futuer proofing yourself with a workable hidef machine? Get out of town. How attractive is that going to be in a year or two. "I have this documentary/magazine style show/comedy series/home decorating show/sports program/nature show/science journal show that I shot on hidef." ..."Really? We need hidef programming for our channel as there is not enough of it produced yet to fill as many hours as we can/need. Well buy you show."

Well, I know I just ran off a little, but, like I said, I am ...excited.

[Shaw]

i defiantly expect for more tele!!!! not just for shallow DOF. there are some basic tasks than can't be done with the DVX's lens range.

Absolutely! And some artistic choices (and I don't mean DOF). The look an extreme telephoto focal length gives just can't be replicated on the DVX.

[speedbump]

Whoa, whoa whoa!

Bob Gundu, and everyone, I scanned over the article about the wonderful security features of this media. And I have a vodka tonic in my hand, so take my post for what its worth.

Unless P2 media has a hardware scheme much like cell phones requiring a password before you can get to the phone directory, I don't see ANY practical benefit in recording which camera used the card, in terms of discouraging theft.

Look, one thing I wanted to point out earlier was that, by weight, right now, P2 cards are more valuable than gold. Think about that.

If I were a thief, I'd be looking for small, transportable items which retain high demand. P2 cards fit that bill, for now. 6 years ago, pentium chips fit the same profile. You folks may not be aware of this, but high-jackings of cross-country trucks, targeting pentium chips was a big problem at one time. I'm not predicting that the same thing will happen for P2 cards,; I'm expressing skepticism about the 'security features' of this media. Police estimate that 91% of people who report their cell phones have been stolen, did not take the precaution of setting a lock code prior to the theft. What do you think will happen in the real world with P2 media?

For that matter, so what if each P2 card has a unique number? Look at car theft, which is probably the single largest non-felony crime in the U.S. Each car has a unique number (the VIN), how does that protect against theft?

My marketing bullshit-o-meter is off the scale, Captain. Shall I go to manual override?

[bgundu]

Is there a problem today with people stealing 4GB Compact Flash Cards? If there's any chance that your cards will be stolen, I bet your camera will be gone too. I personally don't think thieves care too much about any memory cards since they're so cheap. Same will be the case with P2 over time.

[J.R. Hudson]

I totally agree, John; it can be a powerful tool when used effectively. I don't mean to say it has no value -- of course it's part of the equation -- it just seems to be bandied about much like "low-light performance" -- useful, yes, but nearly as important as implied. 24p is a bedrock requirement for a good, solid film look, but I can't think of a single instance of shallow DOF in a movie which stands out in my mind.

And in fact, when I'm thinking of some of the most impressive shots in films, they're all of deep DOF.

Don't get me wrong; I'm highly interested in being able to achieve it. I like a good, well-placed rack focus as much as the next guy. I just don't think it makes or breaks a camera for filmmaking purposes.

Totally. Yes!

[kyle_doris]

i disagree with you there, i don't think one is any more important then the other. i think they are all necessary. DOF can be very subtle. it's important to have @ your disposal. they are both very useful imo. now if you were to ask me which one i'd rather have if i could only have 1?

well duh. i'd want the 24. hehe. i contradict myself (o well) but you know what i mean!

[SergejIvanovits]

I personally don't think thieves care too much about any memory cards since they're so cheap. Same will be the case with P2 over time. Over time? In teen years? What am I going to use in teen years? Not P2 I'm sure.

[MovieSwede]

Well who knows. Maybe 2TB P2 cards are a standard in the future. Or we will have another format that is backcomp. with P2?

But im sure of that tape is a dying format.

[SergejIvanovits]

MovieSwede - P2 is gigant to the next polymer-ram which is comming soon (5 years?) I'm sure. 4-10 TB on your sim card is not an illusion.

[MikeFawcett]

P2 cards use a PCMCIA frame and 4 SD cards in a Raid configuration. PCMCIA is a standard, SD memory is a standard and so is the DVCpro format. The roadmap for P2 shows it growing to 128Gb by 2008. No new format has been created here just a new way of capturing video instead of tape.

[stephenlnoe]

I hope and pray tape dies off. When DVD's took over as the delivery format of choice over VHS, I rejoiced. Mechanical transport has got to give way to a better solution.

[geo]

Shallow DOF is most definatley a stylistic choice and can be used to great effect as one the 'tricks of the trade'; unfortunately it's used alot in an attempt to create something interesting in an otherwise uninteresting composition or to cheat and force the viewer to look at something that could have been done with careful framing. Too many people think that creating a shallow DOF makes them a skilled cinematgrapher I think.

Anothers mans opinion

Ever be out in the field and have a producer/director ask for you to make the background of an interview more out of focus? Or do a rack focus between two objects in a beauty shot? Its a tool a sorely miss when I am forced to shoot a show on 1/3" chips.... the shots loose their 3D look.

[Wadro]

P2 cards use a PCMCIA frame and 4 SD cards in a Raid configuration. PCMCIA is a standard, SD memory is a standard and so is the DVCpro format. The roadmap for P2 shows it growing to 128Gb by 2008. No new format has been created here just a new way of capturing video instead of tape.

By 2008 the PCMCIA will be history. Then what? I'm still using my XL1 I bought in 1997. that's 8 years old. The replacement for the PCMCIA card is already out. It is called Expresscard. My laptop I bought 2 days ago has one. It has already started. see the following thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=24609

By the time P2 cards get cheap, the delivery format will be obsolete in laptops. Not a huge deal just a concern and I never would have considered it except that my laptop had one in it. And maybe Panny will put one in before it is released and we spend 10 grand on it. In MHO.

[thisiswells]

ExpressCard was formed by a coalition of PCMCIA members. It was a standard established a couple of years ago, but has only recently been implemented into mobile computers.

It is significantly smaller than a PC-Card making it an unsuitable enclosure to house the four individual SD cards and ArrayIndendentDisc technology that comprise P2 Media.

So, no I don't think ExpressCard is making the PCMCIA Card obsolete--It is PCMCIA.
www.expresscard.org

[Wadro]

ExpressCard was formed by a coalition of PCMCIA members. It was a standard established a couple of years ago, but has only recently been implemented into mobile computers.

It is significantly smaller than a PC-Card making it an unsuitable enclosure to house the four individual SD cards and ArrayIndendentDisc technology that comprise P2 Media.

So, no I don't think ExpressCard is making the PCMCIA Card obsolete--It is PCMCIA.
www.expresscard.org

I guess they will never phase out the floppy drive either. And it will easily hold XD cards and 1.8" harddrives(currently 40+gig's). But Panny helped develop the SD card not the XD or the PCMCIA. Think about it..

Just trying to get Panasonic to put one in before I buy one.

P.S.From your link above:

ExpressCard was formerly known by its codename: "NEWCARD." Over time ExpressCard technology is expected to replace CardBus as the preferred solution for hot-pluggable internal I/O expansion for desktop and mobile computers.

As long as you can insert an adapter into the expresscard to recieve an old PCMCIA card everything will be ok? I don't know if this is possible?

[thisiswells]

SD and XD are virtually the same size.

Point is: The ExpressCard won't hold four individual SD or XD cards which is a pre-requisite right now of handling the sustained high datarate of HD. So, ExpressCard..ExSmessCard.

brian wells

[Jan_Crittenden]

[QUOTE=Wadro]By 2008 the PCMCIA will be history. Then what? I'm still using my XL1 I bought in 1997. that's 8 years old. The replacement for the PCMCIA card is already out. It is called Expresscard. My laptop I bought 2 days ago has one. It has already started. see the following thread:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=24609
QUOTE]

We actually doubt that this will happen. Where ever it has be announced there has been much ballyhoo about it to the negative; i.e., do not take out the PCMCIA. The PCMCIA card slot should be there for some time to come. And even if it were not, we do offer a P2 drive for about $2500, that will house 5 P2 cards and attach to your computer. It really is interesting that this is even coming up. Think about this, never before have you taken the media and put it into your computer, this is the first time, and now that you have taken ownership of the idea, you don't want to give it up. Well I sit here with a laptop that still has a floppy disk that I have used once in the last year.

Best regards,

Jan

[marko5000]

My concern with the P2 system is I am committed to my Macs and my laptop doesn't have a card slot.

I'm really excited by P2 and a 90% convinced so far. I make short films and this camera and the P2 workflow sounds ideal But 2.5K for a media reader sounds ridiculous and I'm guessing that you won't be able to read from one card whilst writing to another through the camera (although I see no technical reason for this).

Maybe I'm not making sense but an ideal solution for me would be to plug the camera directly into a 12inch ibook or powerbook and move over the data from each card as they become available. Would be fairly simple to set up maybe even automated.

I don't mind paying for a decent camera and I'm happy to pay for a couple of P2 cards but to then pay so much more because of the cards limitations doesn't make sense. Seems the cheapest option would be to buy a new laptop just to store data in the field. That doesn't sound reasonable to me.

I'm hoping I'm missing the obvious here.

[Jan_Crittenden]

[marko5000 said:My concern with the P2 system is I am committed to my Macs and my laptop doesn't have a card slot.

This shouldn't be a problem, do you have a USB connection? Apple is totally committed to the P2 product line.


I'm really excited by P2 and a 90% convinced so far. I make short films and this camera and the P2 workflow sounds ideal But 2.5K for a media reader sounds ridiculous and I'm guessing that you won't be able to read from one card whilst writing to another through the camera (although I see no technical reason for this).

You could get a single slot, PCMCIA reader that could plug into the USB as well.


Does that help?

Jan

[bgundu]

marko5000 - The P2 Drive is $2500 but we still don't know the price of the portable HD Bank. (http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/P2/)

The absolute cheapest solution if you don't have a PCMCIA slot would be to either buy a 15 or 17 inch Powerbook or buy a PCMCIA card reader which would be like 10 bucks.

[Zim]

Panasonic had an ad on there website last week about the HVX200. It seems to be gone. Do you think we get get some new pictures soon? Maybe they are talking the whole thing over!

[David Jimerson]

Sure. We'll get new pics seven days from today.

[Digigenic]

EDIT:
...Sorry for posting a dead pic...
well that sux, the print ad won't show up...
I've gotta figure out a better way to link my images, phooey
well, it's on the back of Film and Video Mag.
One small thing that stands out to me is that it's actually referred to as the "AG" HVX200, not "AJ", now I wish I only knew what the significance were between the two sets of acronyms :)

[Gary_McClurg]

Just get a question mark on the thread instead of a picture.

[stephenlnoe]

Wow, 86 pages worth, and still no peek...

[Zim]

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/zimvg/panasonic-p2-hdv-prototype-.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/zimvg/AG-HVX200.jpg

[Zim]

The mock is on top. They look close and sure looks like room for a tape drive.

[rickshawrider]

damn, you spend nearly $4,000 on newly upgraded 100ae and before you've had time to finish playing with it, a super-upgraded version comes around. man, slow these geeks down, they're pissing me off.

[bgundu]

Does anyone remember if that mockup was based on P2 technology? I know it seems obvious now but did they ever actually document it? It could have been a design exercise based on SD instead of P2.

[bgundu]

damn, you spend nearly $4,000 on newly upgraded 100ae and before you've had time to finish playing with it, a super-upgraded version comes around. man, slow these geeks down, they're pissing me off.


chill out... The HVX is not replacing the DVX. Besides, you should know never to buy video gear just before NAB. The HVX won't be available until later this year so you'll get some more time to play with your DVX until you want to upgrade to HD. :thumbsup:

[Zim]

That's true too. But how much room does all the P2 workings take? Probably not much.

[Luis Caffesse]

sure looks like room for a tape drive.

I don't see what you can base that off of.
Sure, I guess the side of the camera is larger than a miniDV tape, then again what camera isn't? If you were to look at a side view of the SPX800 you could say the same thing.

All we have are 2 pics (1 of which is a mockup of another model) from the side. We have no idea how wide this thing is. A side view doesn't tell you much of anything in terms of what there may be room for.

I don't think we've seen anything at all that could lead to the conclusion that it does or does not have room for a tape drive. Surely not from the shower curtain picture, that's for sure.

[Zim]

I don't see what you can base that off of.
Sure, I guess the side of the camera is larger than a miniDV tape, then again what camera isn't? If you were to look at a side view of the SPX800 you could say the same thing.

All we have are 2 pics (1 of which is a mockup of another model) from the side. We have no idea how wide this thing is. A side view doesn't tell you much of anything in terms of what there may be room for.

I don't think we've seen anything at all that could lead to the conclusion that it does or does not have room for a tape drive. Surely not from the shower curtain picture, that's for sure.

I'm just looking at it and saying there is room for a tape drive. It doesn't take much room for that, unless you think this camera is to thin for a tape! I doubt that, so it has room for a tape.You can buy little mini DV camcorders that will fit in our pocket.
If it's just P2 and only has two slots that are probably at the rear of the camera, whats the rest of the space for? I hope it's a tape drive.

So if it has a tape drive would you not buy the HVX?

[Zim]

The body of the camera is wider than the lens so that should give you a idea how wide it is,,I think the camera has to be about the size of the DVX or a PD170 etc or people will look at it as a toy. Size is important!





http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/zimvg/panasonic-p2-hdv-prototype-.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/zimvg/AG-HVX200.jpg

[Neil Rowe]

geeze .. how many times does jan have to say that that ultra old mockup is NOT the new HVX.. why dont you put a picture of a DVX up there to compare the new and veiled HVX cam to..

if you want to talk about similarities. we could at least start with the camera that the new HVX form factor almost Exactly matches. PANa has said it is a familiar form factor as well.. obviously the old mockup would not be familiar.. and obviously the DVX is.

[Zim]

Not saying it's THE camera,,,but the are close in a way...if you would look. Close to the same style.

[Neil Rowe]

..

[Neil Rowe]

..these are much closer.


http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/images/icon_dvx300cashback.gif
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/zimvg/AG-HVX200.jpg

..my point was that its a mute and somewhat superfluos comparision to make since we know its not the same form factor. and we know that the DVX to the HVX is. so why not compare it to what it compares to?

[Zim]

It will be somewhere close to the three of them. Does the DVX have room for tape? I can't tell from that side view!! Just kidding. I guess we will know soon.

[Barry_Green]

Wow, those are awfully close. I guess when Jan said "familiar form factor", she wasn't kidding! I hope all the inner workings are just as familiar! One of the big lines on our HDX wish list was "keep everything the DVX has, just add more to it", and it looks like they may have been listening!

Regarding thickness -- the "Super 8" prototype was shown from a different angle, and it was very, very thin. Alarmingly so. I think it was like 1.5" thick. The "Super 8" prototype was something of a design exercise to show off what could be accomplished, and it most definitely didn't have any sort of tape drive (and yes, to answer Bob Gundu's question, it definitely bore a P2 logo). But it's vaporware. It's no more a reality than the prototypes you see at car shows.

[Zim]

Barry, a DVX with P2 slots and 16:9, that would be great. Everything that worked before plus HD. The only thing I would need to know is how much?

[David Jimerson]

Wow, those are awfully close. I guess when Jan said "familiar form factor", she wasn't kidding! I hope all the inner workings are just as familiar! One of the big lines on our HDX wish list was "keep everything the DVX has, just add more to it", and it looks like they may have been listening!

Regarding thickness -- the "Super 8" prototype was shown from a different angle, and it was very, very thin. Alarmingly so. I think it was like 1.5" thick. The "Super 8" prototype was something of a design exercise to show off what could be accomplished, and it most definitely didn't have any sort of tape drive (and yes, to answer Bob Gundu's question, it definitely bore a P2 logo). But it's vaporware. It's no more a reality than the prototypes you see at car shows.

Like I said before, it’s no small point that within the HVX resides (apparently) a 16:9 DVX. It’s not a question of one or the other – with the HVX, you get both!

[Barry_S]

For those that are interested, I'll be selling a complete set of HVX200 decals to use on your DVX100. The pack will include the P2, DVCPRO HD, and HVX200 decals and will be (conservatively) priced at under $10.

HVX200 Decal Pack -- No One Has To Know But You.

[Phooey]

haha. That kicks ass, Barry. Do you think I could even put them on Sony Digital 8? I can't wait. I'll be the envy of all my neighbors! Now, under $10? Does that mean $9.99? Because I think you really need to go like $6.99 to hit this market, otherwise it'll be out of the price range of most of the people on this forum. And also, what will the actual size of the stickers be. I know they'll probably be same physical size as the real thing, but will they be printed at 300 dpi, or faking it with some sort of uprezzed 200 dpi? And the real kicker, will they have removable/exchangable gloss coating with true manual settings? Thanks for really listening to this forum, Barry.

[bgundu]

Sorry Barry, but I'm going to be selling a replica of the semi-transparent white sheet used in the HVX teaser ad for only 5 bucks! Heck with this high tech fabric, even your Hi-8 camera can look like the HVX.

[Gary_McClurg]

But how long till we get grey market decals for $5? And when they throw in the glue that'll bring them up to $11.

[Luis Caffesse]

I hope the adhesive on those decals lasts for longer than 4 minutes.
:)

[Barry_S]

Please! Everyone stop emailing me to ask if I'm including a tape drive decal in the pack. You'll just have to wait my NAB announcement (Hall B men's room on April 16th). P2 slot decals will also be available at $50 each.

[Zim]

I'm not paying any more than $4.99.

[David Jimerson]

Do you have any HDV stickers?

[mr._guiyotinne]

Hey, what the hell are decals? Any sort of high end technollogy that bring girls at bunch??? I´m on...!

[Tzedekh]

Does anyone remember if that mockup was based on P2 technology? I know it seems obvious now but did they ever actually document it? It could have been a design exercise based on SD instead of P2.
Yes, it was (see CamcorderInfo article (http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panasonic-p2-flash-pro-04_18_04.htm)).

[Barry_Green]

Keeping the info in one place, there's a little more known now. Three 1/3" 16:9 CCDs, and CineGamma, and a firewire port. See the link at:
http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=93120&catGroupId=14569&modelNo=AG-HVX200&surfModel=AG-HVX200

[scharky]

I'm wondering, if it is possible to output all framerates out through the firewire port, ie 720 60p- 1080-24p and capture directly with a laptop, you wouldn't need any P2 cards whatsoever. I do that pretty much right now with my DVX and DV rack, so why change. Would this be possible, would there be a need for a propriatary capture utility for HD?

[David Jimerson]

Probably need more than a standard laptop HDD for that.

[scharky]

Well, I always capture to an external anyways, but I just wonder if the 1080p signal will be transfered out from the fire wire.

[David Jimerson]

It's one of the $64K questions, no doubt.

[PappasArts]

This link mentions two interesting things.

One is a shipping weight ( Shipping Weight: 8lbs US/ 36.2kg ) .

And this "" The HVX200 camcorder is an affordable tape-less (P2) High definition and standard definition camcorder. """" Tapeless they mention. This could mean nothing or it could mean what it says. My opinion is the HVX200 will not have tape which is better since this is the future. With 1394, there will be firestore options for longer recording needs.

Here is the link:

http://www.ear.net/cgi-bin/estatusp?p=1&mode=stp&q=PAN-AGHVX200


This link appears to have a place ready for manuals etc and a fourm that even Jan is at too!
http://ag-hvx200.com

[booggerg]

Okay so is this picture a cloth drapped over the actual camera? or is there no real elements in this picture at all?

[Brian_Broz]

Well,
I'm curious if the camera weighs 8lbs with accessories/cardboard/packing foam or 36.2kg? Obviously a big difference:-) It seems they have pulled a fast one to generate hits on their site or perhaps a typo.
Can't wait till Monday. Especially since customers have been asking us for 2 weeks already if we (quote) "have the new Panasonic HD-DVX cameras in stock?" lol
Anyone going to the Apple HD event on Sunday 11AM @ Paris? Glad we'll be there a day before the show to check it out!
See you all there,

BBroz

[ARRIguy]

This link mentions two interesting things.

One is a shipping weight ( Shipping Weight: 8lbs US/ 36.2kg ) .

And this "" The HVX200 camcorder is an affordable tape-less (P2) High definition and standard definition camcorder. """" Tapeless they mention. This could mean nothing or it could mean what it says. My opinion is the HVX200 will not have tape which is better since this is the future. With 1394, there will be firestore options for longer recording needs.

Here is the link:

http://www.ear.net/cgi-bin/estatusp?p=1&mode=stp&q=PAN-AGHVX200


This link appears to have a place ready for manuals etc and a fourm that even Jan is at too!


http://ag-hvx200.com


8 pounds expressed in kilograms works out to be 3.62. It's got to be a typo.

[Barry_Green]

Capturing to a laptop... hmmm...

Well, one could look to FCP-HD for the answer. With that platform, and the AJ-1200HD deck, they trumpeted loudly that you could now edit DVCPRO-HD over the firewire. That was the big innovation. So it would seem awfully convenient if they carried that workflow forward... as David said, nobody knows, but I'm gonna assume that it can. It just makes sense. And that would be awfully handy for capturing longform footage in a studio/set environment! As to whether you'd need a bigger/more-powerful HDD, I'd think just about any external FW or USB2 HD should be able to maintain a 14mB/s data rate, shouldn't it? Maybe not to the internal drive...

But yes, one of the first stops on the NAB floor is going to be to our friends at Serious Magic to see if they've developed DVCPRO-HD Rack. Surely the "Serious Production" bundle deal with Panasonic has got them interested, right? How cool would that be?

[Aaron Koolen]

Well tapeless would blow, unless they bundle a nice firestore in with the cam that attaches to a nice slot on the side where the tape drive used to sit. :)

Aaron

[Robert_Niemann]

A changeable hard disk drive unit on the cam would be fine. The kit for it should be supplied with the camera. Just plug and play.

[Barry_Green]

I don't even need it that way -- although that would be nice -- but what I'm hoping for is off-the-shelf firewire hard disk compatibility. Then you could pick up a new hard disk for a gig, the same way you (used to) pick up blank tapes.

Barring that, a user-swappable hard disk would be a great option.

What I don't really care to see is a repeat of the FireStore type of device, with a non-interchangeable hard disk. The Firestore's great, but it doesn't solve the one nagging workflow question, which is: how do I shoot longform stuff and hand it over to the producer and walk away? User-interchangeable hard disks let me do that. Off-the-shelf firewire hard disks let me do that. An $800 40-gb Firestore doesn't let me do that.

Here's to hoping that Panasonic has thought this through, and will provide a workflow solution.

[thisiswells]

Too bad Focus Enhancements is a P2 Partner. I really wish more than anything this camera would let me hook up a G-Drive or Big Disk or better yet, a bus-powered drive using the new Hitachi 7200's, press record, then BAM!

. . . but then why the heck would Firestore be a P2 Partner?

[Aaron Koolen]

Exactly wells I was thinking the same thing just now. With Firestore as a partner, I don't think we'll see something like that. Barry, that's a good point about removeable drives. I hadn't thought of that and just assumed that the Firestore would have interchangeable drives.

Aaron

[timabad]

does anyone know of anything that will even come close to this for the money anytime soon?!

[Neil Rowe]

..you know, whats interesting about that link you posted barry(besides the acknowledgment of 1/3" 16:9 ccds) is that it says:

DVCPRO HD/50/25 and DV recording

.. they list DVCPRO 25 and then list DV recording seperately. hmmmmm
perhaps all the DVCPRO material goes to P2 with no moving parts, but there is a tape transport for regular DV? cause if not i have no idea why they would even list DVCPRO25 and DV as two seperate entities. but they seem to specifically say "and DV recording". so IMHO unless thats some sort of poor translation from the Japanese press release ..it seems they listed it that way for a reason. honestly to me it kid of reads like they put that on there to let people know they can record regular DV ..presumably to a regular DV tape. interesting. we shall see. it would still be concurrent with jans statements when she said no moving parts for recording the DVCPRO HD/50/25.. it would just add another flavor of the dv codec to the mix that she never metioned..leaving it free to be recorded to whatever. BUT.. and that a big BUT there.. i still think it wil be tapeless. i think they are going for a revolutionary camera and not looking back. .. not trying to put one leg in the future while keeping one in the past. id assume that people presuming it will go to DV tape would be wrong, and that its just there becuase some editors or ways of recording will not work with DVCPRO. and so that way you could stream out via firewire to an EXT recording device that cannot handle DVCPRO but will work with DV. just another option. i personally still doubt the tape transport is there and that that section just sort of implies something that is not there, but will be made clear later as they can say more about the whole thing. again.. having said that .. i would rather have it there than not.
..cmon NAB.. would you just start already.

[SergejIvanovits]

My guess is that all the material can go to P2 but DVCPRO25 an DV realtime out via firewire.

[Neil Rowe]

..my thought exactly..just took me a while to type it all out. lol

[David Jimerson]

Capturing to a laptop... hmmm...

I'd think just about any external FW or USB2 HD should be able to maintain a 14mB/s data rate, shouldn't it? Maybe not to the internal drive...



Well, I made sure to get a 7200 RPM internal drive on mine, so I think it could do it, ceteris paribus. But then, it's only 60GB and the OS and software is on it. I've had no problem capturing live from the DVX, but . . .

[Zim]

So if it is tapeless how much standard digital video can you get on a card?

Also,,,how are these companies getting info on the HVX200 when it's not released yet?

If this camera doesn't have tape they better make the P2 cards cheap and more memory.

[Gary_McClurg]

[QUOTE=Zim]
Also,,,how are these companies getting info on the HVX200 when it's not released yet?

Because they're working together.

I'm sure Panny has released the information to Apple and others and vice versa once they sign non-disclosure contracts with each other.

[Zim]

Why not release info from the Panasonic website instead of some place in AZ?

[Jaime Valles]

So if it is tapeless how much standard digital video can you get on a card?

If my math is correct, you could record approximately 24 minutes of regular DV on one 8GB card.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with this (which is very possible.)

[Zig_Zigman]

I'll be shocked if it doesn't have a tape drive. It almost certainly will.

[shAi]

I'll be shocked if it doesn't have a tape drive. It almost certainly will.

prepare to be shocked :laugh:

i smell a bet. wheres the poll?

[WarrenS]

I've been following this thread with a lot of excitement. How many of you guys will be at NAB? I plan to be there Monday morning probably starting at the Apple booth since the scuttlebutt says that Apple is "co-announcing" this camera with Panasonic along with their new products. Wonder what that means...

[shAi]

as much as i look at this "bride" picture of the HVX.. this matte box looks like something good. i dream of a built-in place for 4x4 filter.. and wonder, why the hell are they hiding the lens?!? or is it a white lens?!?!???

[shAi]

"co-announcing"


im getting excited :shocked:

[Zim]

as much as i look at this "bride" picture of the HVX.. this matte box looks like something good. i dream of a built-in place for 4x4 filter.. and wonder, why the hell are they hiding the lens?!? or is it a white lens?!?!???

Maybe they put a cannon lens on it!!

[shAi]

buwwhhaaa!!! omg

[Neil Rowe]

http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/prodImg/big/AG-HVX200.jpg..what are you guys talking about? the lense is black and is simply not flat against the sheet to show more definition in the outline. just like the front support for the top handle/mic.

[reservoir]

Maybe they put a cannon lens on it!!

Yeah, and maybe it runs on Jet Fuel and can travel through time as well.

~reservoir~

[Daygola814]

That's impossible... it needs Plutonium to travel through time.... :embarasse sorry......

[reservoir]

That's impossible... it needs Plutonium to travel through time.... :embarasse sorry......

Damn it!! I always mess up on those technicalities!! :grin:

~reservoir~

[Barry_Green]

. . . but then why the heck would Firestore be a P2 Partner?
Well, there's another reason, they have some sort of MFX to OMF file converter utility or something... there's a press release on it on Focus' website. Something that helps turn P2 files into something that other editing programs can recognize.

So just because Focus is a P2 partner, doesn't mean that it's specifically for a FireStore type of device.

[Barry_Green]

If my math is correct, you could record approximately 24 minutes of regular DV on one 8GB card.

Anyone, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong with this (which is very possible.)
More like 32 minutes. Maybe a little more.

[Barry_Green]

i still think it wil be tapeless. i think they are going for a revolutionary camera and not looking back. .. not trying to put one leg in the future while keeping one in the past.
Sorry, have to 100% disagree. If that was the case, why have SD at all on it? DV is definitely not part of the revolutionary future, it's clearly the past (and present), yet the camera supports DV. That's why I think it will have (it's got to have) a miniDV tape drive on it too. Nothing wrong with embracing the revolutionary future, but make sure that you can make a living with it today while we TRANSITION to that future!

[reservoir]

Great perspective and insight Barry. Here's my 2 cents:

The HVX200 *WILL* have a tape drive to help us "transition" into HD. But in a year or two when the HVX200a or HVX300 comes out, it will be 100% tapeless. By then enough time will have passed to let technology catch up enough to WEEN us off tape. Hopefully we'll be into the 16GB+ P2 card stage then.

~reservoir~

[Aaron Koolen]

Well, there's another reason, they have some sort of MFX to OMF file converter utility or something... there's a press release on it on Focus' website. Something that helps turn P2 files into something that other editing programs can recognize.

So just because Focus is a P2 partner, doesn't mean that it's specifically for a FireStore type of device.


Deductively, we can't deduce just cause they are a P2 partner that it means Firestore, but on another forum when talking about the running times of the P2 cards, and workflow in using those short running times, Jan said

[quote]
The longest load in the DVCPRO HD camera is now 30 minutes.
If it were me and I wanted to work with this new camera, I probably would have 1 or 2 more cards than what the camera can hold. Just like I do with my digital still cameras. I have figured out my work flow with the still camera and I know how many pictures I generally shoot on a given outing. The point is that it is about changing the way you think about it.

Oh and Focus Enhancements is a P2 Partner.
[quote]


Which implies to me there is something on the horizon. Of course, this doesn't mean anything was developed in partnership with Panasonic, just that Focus Enhancements is a P2 partner and might bring something out.


All I hope is that NLE's natively support these MX files. I DO NOT want to have an intermediate step before I edit.

Aaron

[BLUESPIDER]

im too lazy to read this entire thread but will anyone know if they will be maybe possibly selling a few of these bad boys during NAB?

[Barry Goyette]

More like 32 minutes. Maybe a little more.
actually it's close to 40, I think..... 5 mins per gig x 8 = 40. yes?

[SergejIvanovits]

That's why I think it will have (it's got to have) a miniDV tape drive on it too. Jan said before that DVX users shouldn't be worried about the future because the DVX will be there. I'm just guessing as all of you but my guesses are like this. The HVX will be a camcorder for the middle range (financial) filmmakers, studios making tv series. The street prise will be lover than it should be if you compare other camcorders and what you have to pay for it. The prise will be lover because you will pay for the rest of the camcorder when you buy a P2 card. And you will buy more than one. You will be a P2 card junker. The firewire will be only for the DV and DVCPRO25 realtime out to your laptop or diskrecorder. The DVX will continue as before at least 2 years is my best guess.

[thisiswells]

Yeah, but a certain amount of space on *any* media card is software and other stuff
the reduces the functional capacity of the card. For example, my iPod is 10Gb, but only
stores 9.2GB. My 32mb memory stick only holds like 30mb. Etc. etc.

I think that was figured into speculation on record capacity on a P2 card.

brian wells

[reservoir]

This is correct. The *Formatted* capacity will always be less than the stated 4 or 8 GB. Then add in the extra space for the metadata.

This is from Panasonic's P2 website:


**Total card capacity includes space for data management such as system data, therefore, actual usable area is less than capacity indicated on the card.

~reservoir~

[bilgami]

BiLGaMi Video Productions :thumbsup:

Im only guessing here but I think the price range will fall between 5-7 thousand. I was on the Panasonic site and the AJ-D410A (http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?displayTab=O&storeId=11201&catalogId=13051&itemId=68654&catGroupId=14616&modelNo=AJ-D410A&surfModel=AJ-D410A) is listed for nearly 8 grand and the 100a is just under 5 grand. So Im thinking the 200 might fall in between them.

bilgami@hotmail.com
http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

[reservoir]

I agree. 5-7k is definately the *sweet spot* I believe. 5-6k would be directly competitive with the Z1U as promised. 7k...maybe. Then add a P2 card you'd still be under the 10k threshold.

~reservoir~

[Luis Caffesse]

im too lazy to read this entire thread but will anyone know if they will be maybe possibly selling a few of these bad boys during NAB?

Yes, didn't you read the 'preselling' post earlier in this thread?
Get the code off that, and submit it to the Panasonic website to get on the list.

:happy:

[Isaac_Brody]

Longest thread ever.

[reservoir]

Longest thread ever.

Oh...I think we're just getting started. I bet by Monday (NAB - 18th) this thread will be well over 1000 and on it's way to 1500.

~reservoir~

[Barry_S]

:shocked:Crikey! We're going to lock this one down and start a couple of new ones after the official release.

[reservoir]

:shocked:Crikey! We're going to lock this one down and start a couple of new ones after the official release.

Barry,

That's probably a good idea. Start a new one called:

Post-NAB HVX200

then rename this one to:

Pre-NAB HVX jibber-jabber



Or something like that. Otherwise we'll have a thread that's like 150-200 pages long eventually!!

~reservoir~

[Aaron Koolen]

I agree. 5-7k is definately the *sweet spot* I believe. 5-6k would be directly competitive with the Z1U as promised. 7k...maybe. Then add a P2 card you'd still be under the 10k threshold.

~reservoir~

If they go close to 7k, I think they're idiots. I mean after NAB, everyone will now be able to choose between 3 cameras to shoot HiDef. Both the Sony and the JVC will be under or on 7k so we think. And you can shoot HD out of the box. If you have to go and purchase a P2 for the HVX *on top* of the camera price of say 7k then it's getting to be less of a comparison. You get a vamped DVX unless you pay for P2.

Aaron

[jnolla]

Well, call me an idiot but, even if it is higher more than 7k to shoot true HD, I'm willing to pay for it, and I bet anyone $100.00, this camera will surpass the other two competitors sales, even at a higher price!

[Phooey]

I don't know. I think there are two types of people wanting to shoot HD and that's hobbyists and indie filmmakers. For the hobbyist's go with the FX1, you don't need anything better. For Indie filmmakers you have people with a real budget and people who can get a hold of some credit cards. If you have a big budget, you can go with an already existing HD cam, whatever. But there is a sweet spot of indie filmmakers who I guarantee will buy the camera with the best looking pictures and will pay just about anything under $10,000. I mean, if you're going to be spending over 5k for camera, you'll get the best thing you can. Where the HVX will win over all the others is very simple, DVCPRO50. Most clients don't care about HD unless they're high end anyway and there are already cams available. People in this range want to make movies. But where the HVX takes a huge step away from it's competitors is the fact that you can take it and go shoot great SD footage, way better than crappy DV compression anyway. It will be definitely, without a doubt, the most versatile camera of it's competitors. FWIW, I predict 7k for the HVX.

[Phooey]

At this point there isn't a lot of options for HD out. You can print to film, record to DVCPRO-HD (expensive even for HVX users), or wait for Blue Ray. If you shoot HDV you can record back to it, so you have that. It's great for people who want to do that.

Interestingly, I just thought back and I recall when the VX1000 first came out it was right around the time people were trying to get DVD's to stick. A few were showing up in the rental stores, but not many people had DVD players. Bring on Blu-Ray.

[ccroo]

Barry, didn't Jan say absolutely no tape drive? I thought that was it, a given. Why do you think otherwise?


Sorry, have to 100% disagree. If that was the case, why have SD at all on it? DV is definitely not part of the revolutionary future, it's clearly the past (and present), yet the camera supports DV. That's why I think it will have (it's got to have) a miniDV tape drive on it too. Nothing wrong with embracing the revolutionary future, but make sure that you can make a living with it today while we TRANSITION to that future!

[stephenlnoe]

Over 70,000 reads and over 95 pages of post? And STILL haven't come to any conclusions.

This really is a HOT product. I'm praying that it can live up to this hype.

[saru]

As I said this before, I was told by a sale rep that the price would be 650,000 Japanese Yen, roughly $6000 for a camera. Then you need to add 1 or 2 P2 card to cost, currently costing 200,000 Japanese Yen ($1840) for 4GB. That is what "under $10000" means.

The rep also said "It's got a tape drive, it's hybrid", being the term hybrid a keyword as this has come up on some UK website too if I can recall correctly.

I think one of the great thing about Panasonic is that they DO listen to us, they know what we want, and they do it at their best. You can't imagine calling up SONY and asking for info of an upcoming camcorder, answering as willingly as Pana did. (Actually I did exactly same thing when DVX100a's rumor was around and posted some info to share on 2POP if anyone remember)

They love sneak peek, cause they know they've listened what we want, and are sure they did what they can do at their best.

cheers,



PS: DVX100a will NOT be discontinued, I was told that too!

[Barry_Green]

Barry, didn't Jan say absolutely no tape drive? I thought that was it, a given. Why do you think otherwise?
First, I don't believe Jan ever said that. I think it was a quote taken out of context that would maybe apply to HD or DVCPRO50, but I don't think it was in context with the camera itself, just in relation to when shooting P2.

Second, at the time that quote was made, it was two months ago. An eternity in product design. Maybe at the time they were considering going completely tapeless, but I think the mention of DV recording, plus the sheer practicality of it, means that it's likely that we might (and I do emphasize *might*) get a tape drive. Plus other Panasonic sources seem to indicate that maybe tape will be included.

I guess all I'm saying is, we've been told specifically a few things the camera *will* do, but very little about what it *won't* do. And I won't believe they'll leave off a miniDV deck until I see it. I think it has to have it. I'm hoping it does.

[PKraft]

Barry,

Jan said in an admittedly very early stage:
"This camera will have no moving parts except the lens and it will record to solid state memory."
This is what she said about the camera, quote not taken out of context.

For me that translates into NO tape drive. Why should it have one with the more than acceptable recording time for DVCPro25/DV on a 4GB P2card and the 8GB P2card available when the camera hits the shelves. And something like Firestore on the horizon.

You advocated a transition of workflow philosophy from working with tape to solid state memory. Why would you want to go back to tape now?

Oh, and all this "I want my miniDV" discussuion pretty much sucks. We had film cassettes to change every three minutes and no one ever complained. If nowadays 8 minutes recording capacity is not enough, just connect a firestore. Of course Focus will offer it for that application as well. Would be pretty dumb not to do it with such a whining market for longer recording times. On the other hand, there is a big difference between what "the market" seems to cry for and real purchase decisions. Amazingly.

[Digigenic]

At this point there isn't a lot of options for HD out. You can print to film, record to DVCPRO-HD (expensive even for HVX users), or wait for Blue Ray....Interestingly, I just thought back and I recall when the VX1000 first came out it was right around the time people were trying to get DVD's to stick. A few were showing up in the rental stores, but not many people had DVD players. Bring on Blu-Ray.

Funny you should mention Blu Ray…
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0504g5.html [second to last paragraph of the article]
Add this to the fact that Apple will be “co-presenting” with Panasonic, and you can consider your Blu-Ray brought brother :happy:

[Phooey]

Yeah. I saw that. I have my doubts, only because Apple just jumped onto to Blu-Ray like a month ago. And although no one even has a Blu-Ray player at home, Apple loves to be the first. Maybe Panasonic will introduce a Blu-Ray player as well. That'd be pretty cool.

[Smudge]

Of all the speculators so far it seems Saru is the man with the goods (see above).
He lives close to the pulse and seems to have an acquiantance with inside information.
$6K with tape drive. Done deal.
Got any more info for us Saru ?

[saru]

Yeah I have posted here *almost* all info I know.

That goes;
Has 82mm thread fixed lens
2 P2 slots + tape drive (DV25?)
16x9 native chip
650,000 Japanese Yen for camera only
Will be released in December

Surprisingly enough, they seemed have been pushing the specs as far as it can go even at the time I spoke to the guy (a week ago or so), especially for the framerate stuff ;-)

So there might be more surprises.

How many days left for NAB?
I'm really holding tight now ;-)

[Barry_Green]

Jan said in an admittedly very early stage:
"This camera will have no moving parts except the lens and it will record to solid state memory."
This is what she said about the camera, quote not taken out of context.
Interesting. I wonder what she would say today, asked the same question? Oh, wait -- I know the answer to that one: "sorry, can't answer, see us at NAB."


For me that translates into NO tape drive. Why should it have one with the more than acceptable recording time for DVCPro25/DV on a 4GB P2card and the 8GB P2card available when the camera hits the shelves. And something like Firestore on the horizon.
I've answered that one repeatedly -- there is an *excellent* reason for it to have a miniDV tape drive, and that is because there are a ton of jobs being done nowadays, today, where the expected workflow is to hand over a tape at the end of the job. I think those jobs could be *better* done with P2/hard-disk, but wishing does not make it so. If you're asked to shoot a job and hand over a tape, then either you do so, or you don't get the job. I want to still be able to get the jobs.

Let's be clear about something: *nobody* hates tape more than I do. Especially after this last couple of weekends working in the desert, I cannot stand the stuff, it is unreliable and it's got to go. I want it gone gone gone, replaced with the magnificent solid-state workflow. However: wishing does not make it so. The reality of the industry is that if you're paid as a cameraman, many/most of those jobs will expect a tape at the end of the job. If you're paid to produce commercials, or hiring out your gear to shoot a film or something like that, then tape is absolutely irrelevant, and must die, the sooner the better. If you're doing your own projects for your own editing, then tape is irrelevant and you can be free of its insidious evil instability all the sooner. But if you're an operating cameraman hired for a miniDV shoot, you'd better hand over a miniDV tape. And with an expected price tag of $7,000 or $10,000... I think people buying it are more likely to be looking to put it to work.

And come on -- it'll cost 'em maybe $40 to add a miniDV tape into it. Why *wouldn't* they add it?


You advocated a transition of workflow philosophy from working with tape to solid state memory. Why would you want to go back to tape now?
I advocate, preach, evangelize, and spread the good word about going to solid state, absolutely unequivocally. It is THE way to work. It is so infinitely superior that I expect people who get the slightest taste of it will DREAD using a tape-based workflow, just as I do now.

But, again: you gotta give the client what they want. If they want a miniDV tape, you give it to 'em. If they want a BetaSP tape, you don't sit there and argue for 20 minutes about how your DV camera can do "just as good", you sign the contract and rent an old BetaSP camera and book the job. I don't think anyone should ever shoot tape again (unless it's for a long, long, long-form program where you NEED the long running time), but when I am the worker, and not the boss, I don't get to make that decision.


We had film cassettes to change every three minutes and no one ever complained. If nowadays 8 minutes recording capacity is not enough, just connect a firestore.
Currently shooting a feature and a short while the feature's on an 8-week break. On the longest days we shoot a full tape (ugh)... and 70% of it is garbage we'll never use (flubbed takes, etc). Some days it's as little as 24 minutes for a full day's coverage. If someone thinks they're going to be into dramatic filmmaking and that they're going to be somehow LIMITED by a 20-minute record time on an 8gb card, I'd say they likely haven't had much experience shooting film!

For events and other hired-out gigs, I can definitely see why people would want longer record times, and I am hoping hoping hoping the camera will support external firewire drives for that purpose. I'll say this about the tape workflow -- the first time you work a long gig, shoot three hours of footage during a day, and hand over a pre-digitized hard disk (instead of a stack of tapes) to the producer... that's the LAST time he/she'll ever hire a tape shooter again! We will convert them to a tapeless workflow, and they'll LOVE it... but until everyone's comfortable, we'll have to put up with the stuff a while longer.


Of course Focus will offer it for that application as well. Would be pretty dumb not to do it with such a whining market for longer recording times.
Some jobs demand longer record times. It's not just "whining". Although, if you're handing over 1080/24p at 4:2:2, vs. the tape shooter's best of 720/24p at 4:2:0, I think a lot of producers will be willing to put up with a tiny pause for offloading to HD in the middle of a shoot. Some won't, that's for sure, but I bet a lot will.


On the other hand, there is a big difference between what "the market" seems to cry for and real purchase decisions. Amazingly.
That's the absolute truth!

[Karl]

I found this on videoguys, under firestore.

Whether you are already shooting in HD or intend to in the future, now is the time to future-proof your FS-4 by pre-ordering Hi-Def support. The Upgrade Promotion allows you to add High Definition MPEG support* to your FS-4 for use with HDV and HD camcorders and decks such as the Sony HVR-Z1U, HDR-FX1 and HVR-M10U and JVC JY-HD10U, CU-VH1US and GR-HD1. Clips are recorded to disk as 720p or 1080i MPEG2 transport streams.


Can't they make this work for the hvx?

[Karl]

And what about this?

SECAUCUS, NJ (February 10, 2005) - Panasonic Broadcast introduced today the AJ-PCS060, a ruggedized, portable hard disk unit with a P2 card slot that quickly transfers the content of P2 cards to an internal hard disk drive.

The 2.5" 60GB hard disk drive can hold the contents of up to 15 4GB P2 cards, and the entire contents of a 4GB P2 card can be transferred to the internal hard disk drive in approximately four minutes. After the P2 content has been transferred, the P2 store can connect to an NLE or Server Ingest PC via a USB 2.0 interface and appears as an external disk drive.

It sounds good...

Then I can buy food for the next year, and not be concerned about buying more p2 cards all the time.


:thumbsup:

[stephenlnoe]

As I wrote on the other thread. It just makes sense for them to have a hard drive solution. Somebody wrote up this thread and on another thread about DV25 tape slot. It does not make sense that it would be DV25 and have the SD be 422.

[reservoir]

Funny you should mention Blu Ray…
http://www.thinksecret.com/news/0504g5.html [second to last paragraph of the article]
Add this to the fact that Apple will be “co-presenting” with Panasonic, and you can consider your Blu-Ray brought brother

HEY....Don't be stealing my thunder now!! I was the 1st to post this yesterday in the Cafe!! :)


I saw that. I have my doubts, only because Apple just jumped onto to Blu-Ray like a month ago. And although no one even has a Blu-Ray player at home, Apple loves to be the first. Maybe Panasonic will introduce a Blu-Ray player as well. That'd be pretty cool.

Yes, Apple does like to be first. In fact, they were the first company to ship DVD burners with their computers.....a la *Superdrive*!! Don't be shocked when they are first *AGAIN* to ship Blu-ray *Superdrives* in the new Dual Core Power Macs.

This would be most helpful in providing us a way to deliver HD content. I would assume by the time the New Macs and Panny Cam ship....there *should* be some Blu-ray consoles on the market from Sony, Pioneer, other industry leaders.

~reservoir~

[David Jimerson]

Delivering HD content on Blu-Ray is fine.

If your client has a Blu-Ray player and an HDTV.

[Tzedekh]

And what about this?

SECAUCUS, NJ (February 10, 2005) - Panasonic Broadcast introduced today the AJ-PCS060, a ruggedized, portable hard disk unit with a P2 card slot that quickly transfers the content of P2 cards to an internal hard disk drive.

The 2.5" 60GB hard disk drive can hold the contents of up to 15 4GB P2 cards, and the entire contents of a 4GB P2 card can be transferred to the internal hard disk drive in approximately four minutes. After the P2 content has been transferred, the P2 store can connect to an NLE or Server Ingest PC via a USB 2.0 interface and appears as an external disk drive.
Isn't that cutting it a little close? Assuming the camera supports hot-swapping, if it has only two P2 slots (maybe it has more) and a 4-GB card holds about 4 minutes of 720p60 or 1080p24 footage, wouldn't the second P2 card be just about full as you finish dumping the first card to the AJ-PCS060? If so, I would think that with such split-second timing and trying to avoid jostling the camera while hot-swapping, longer-duration shooting (more than, say, 15 minutes continuously) would get really nerve-racking.

[ccroo]

Hey Barry (and all):

A tape transport would certainly make me smile. I hope you're right and they do include it.

Am I right in assuming that DVCPRO and DVCPRO50 (and DV?) can be recorded to tape? Does DVCPRO 50 currently record to DV tape or does it have it's own special cartridge?

Thanks!


First, I don't believe Jan ever said that. I think it was a quote taken out of context that would maybe apply to HD or DVCPRO50, but I don't think it was in context with the camera itself, just in relation to when shooting P2.

Second, at the time that quote was made, it was two months ago. An eternity in product design. Maybe at the time they were considering going completely tapeless, but I think the mention of DV recording, plus the sheer practicality of it, means that it's likely that we might (and I do emphasize *might*) get a tape drive. Plus other Panasonic sources seem to indicate that maybe tape will be included.

I guess all I'm saying is, we've been told specifically a few things the camera *will* do, but very little about what it *won't* do. And I won't believe they'll leave off a miniDV deck until I see it. I think it has to have it. I'm hoping it does.

[bgundu]

Hey Barry (and all):
Am I right in assuming that DVCPRO and DVCPRO50 (and DV?) can be recorded to tape? Does DVCPRO 50 currently record to DV tape or does it have it's own special cartridge?

Nope.... DVCPRO and DVCPRO50 would be recorded to P2.

[Zim]

How about this: Apple comes out with a ivideo pod. They have one for music, photos why not for video. You just plug it into the camera and download or record to it. About 100gb for $300. There can even be alittle viewer on it. Apple's going to want a piece of this,,,why let Firestore have it. Apple's stock went up 200% in a year. They are on a roll and I wonder what they will have at NAB that will relate to the HVX?

[reservoir]

I'd like to see a *Video iPod* too. But with Focus already being an official partner, it looks like Apple might be on their on with that. No need to fret though, they'll still have their dual cores, and updated versions of FCP, Motion, Soundtrack, Shake, etc. They'll still be getting plenty of *play* from the HVX market.

~reservoir~

[bgundu]

How about this: Apple comes out with a ivideo pod. They have one for music, photos why not for video. You just plug it into the camera and download or record to it. About 100gb for $300. There can even be alittle viewer on it. Apple's going to want a piece of this,,,why let Firestore have it. Apple's stock went up 200% in a year. They are on a roll and I wonder what they will have at NAB that will relate to the HVX?


Same reason why they won't be putting an FM tuner in the iPod. :happy:Also, the market for MP3 players is way bigger than for Video Storage.

[Phooey]

I bet we'll be able to stream to FCP. So if you really want continuous recording to hard disk, that's what you'll have to do. But then I have to believe that by the time this camera comes out (December?!) someone will have already come up with a solution that is nothing more than a PCMCIA card with firewire port coming out of it. Hook up a drive and you're ready to go. That Panny storage device is a joke at what $1500/$2000 or whatever it is. You can buy a laptop with PCMCIA slot for that.

[Zack Birlew]

Well, we'll have to see. I think the camera at most would have 3x P2 slots. More than likely, it will have 2x. You guys shouldn't worry about having to buy seperate P2 cards right off the bat, I'm sure the camera comes with one. Whether that's a significant thing or not to you, I don't know, but I'm just saying. Firestore devices will be nice once they get off their lazy butts and put some bigger capacities in those things, max is 80gb? Come on, I could buy an external firewire adapter and a 120-400gb HDD for less! Especially since I've already got the laptop for the job.

[PKraft]

Interesting. I wonder what she would say today, asked the same question? Oh, wait -- I know the answer to that one: "sorry, can't answer, see us at NAB."
Not so sure about that. She just recently referred to that earlier statement and never negated it. So it's still valid. Jan simply hid behind her NDA when asked more detailed questions. And that's ok.



I've answered that one repeatedly -- there is an *excellent* reason for it to have a miniDV tape drive, and that is because there are a ton of jobs being done nowadays, today, where the expected workflow is to hand over a tape at the end of the job. I think those jobs could be *better* done with P2/hard-disk, but wishing does not make it so. If you're asked to shoot a job and hand over a tape, then either you do so, or you don't get the job. I want to still be able to get the jobs.
I am absolutely with you so far. But I am not with you concerning your consequences. Of course it's in a customer's discretion to ask for a tape, but it's your decision which camera to take for the job. If most of your jobs are better off with a P2 and only a very few ask for DV, then why not rent a DVX for the DV jobs and do a better job for the others with your HVX P2? It will only boost your reputation. And my experience with good reputation is that people believe in what you tell them.


Let's be clear about something: *nobody* hates tape more than I do. Especially after this last couple of weekends working in the desert, I cannot stand the stuff, it is unreliable and it's got to go. I want it gone gone gone, replaced with the magnificent solid-state workflow. However: wishing does not make it so. The reality of the industry is that if you're paid as a cameraman, many/most of those jobs will expect a tape at the end of the job. If you're paid to produce commercials, or hiring out your gear to shoot a film or something like that, then tape is absolutely irrelevant, and must die, the sooner the better. If you're doing your own projects for your own editing, then tape is irrelevant and you can be free of its insidious evil instability all the sooner. But if you're an operating cameraman hired for a miniDV shoot, you'd better hand over a miniDV tape. And with an expected price tag of $7,000 or $10,000... I think people buying it are more likely to be looking to put it to work.


But, again: you gotta give the client what they want. If they want a miniDV tape, you give it to 'em. If they want a BetaSP tape, you don't sit there and argue for 20 minutes about how your DV camera can do "just as good", you sign the contract and rent an old BetaSP camera and book the job. I don't think anyone should ever shoot tape again (unless it's for a long, long, long-form program where you NEED the long running time), but when I am the worker, and not the boss, I don't get to make that decision.
In that case ... rent ... see above.




If someone thinks they're going to be into dramatic filmmaking and that they're going to be somehow LIMITED by a 20-minute record time on an 8gb card, I'd say they likely haven't had much experience shooting film!
Could not have said it better


For events and other hired-out gigs, I can definitely see why people would want longer record times, and I am hoping hoping hoping the camera will support external firewire drives for that purpose. I'll say this about the tape workflow -- the first time you work a long gig, shoot three hours of footage during a day, and hand over a pre-digitized hard disk (instead of a stack of tapes) to the producer... that's the LAST time he/she'll ever hire a tape shooter again! We will convert them to a tapeless workflow, and they'll LOVE it... but until everyone's comfortable, we'll have to put up with the stuff a while longer.
Some jobs demand longer record times. It's not just "whining". Although, if you're handing over 1080/24p at 4:2:2, vs. the tape shooter's best of 720/24p at 4:2:0, I think a lot of producers will be willing to put up with a tiny pause for offloading to HD in the middle of a shoot. Some won't, that's for sure, but I bet a lot will.

Again: Show them your better alternative and if they want to stick with DV and tape ... rent a DVX. It's a workhorse. Proven. And does tape. In all other cases use your P2. You know why.

Barry, a transition is a transition is a transition. That requires a lot of courage to go that way. But never go it half-heartedly. Use DV and tape when it's required and solid state memory whenever possible. And tell customers that you can record in HD and down convert to DV when they give you an extra day to do that conversion which gives them the benefit to have HD material for later use. They will even pay you for that. My experience.

[Zim]

PKraft,,,,,like Barry said look at that poll. Follow the money. Panasonic likes to make money and if people won't buy without tape then they might have tape on this camera. There are more cost than just P2 cards,,computer upgrades to HD is a big cost. But if they have a camera that covers the people who want and can afford HD that's great. But if it also works with tape and you get real 16:9 chips....that is awesome. There are alot of people who just want that now. Plus they would have a camera if they want to shoot HD then can.

I just can't see the problem if it has a mini DV tape drive!

[J.R. Hudson]

Those are very valid points Zim; it isn't just about the camera is it. This thing most likely will go for $7000.00 to $10,000.00; I'm thinking it'll have tape; it just makes sense to me. Solid State is indeed the way to go; as is HD-24p but how many people can 'realisticly' enjoy HD or have hardware for it? The technology is changing fast but the consumers are limited on how fast they can adapt I think.

And PKraft? Who rent's?

[SergejIvanovits]

If the camera has a tape drive than it has no P2 card in the box I'm sure.

[PKraft]

Zim, we have a saying in the region I live in that is (literally translated): There is no such thing like an egg laying wool milk pig. Hope you get the message.
With the panny it's similarly either or. There is already either, the DVX. If you want to do HD, it's HVX. That's a different breed. And if you want to do HD, you know why and you have either the funds or the jobs or both to pay for a new camera and computer upgrades. You can't do HD without either thing. So what sense does it make, to buy an HD cam and use it for DV? If you need a new electric railway go to a toy shop. That's cheaper.
If you buy a Mercedes or a Porsche or a BMW you cannot go to the shop and tell them: But I want my car with Volkswagen tires because I cannot afford the gas to drive it so I will refrain from speeding and therefore Volkswagen tires are all I need.
They would take pictures of you, maybe serve a drink or a thin coffee and bid fare well.
I mean, this is all pretty much little boys' thinking.
Really, it's either (P2) or (DV). But not both at the same time. Simply does not make sense.

[J.R. Hudson]

But it does make sense; why limit the target audience? Why not offer both? Why limit the consumer to "Okay; now you gotta buy some cards and upgrade that pice of crap XEON PC you're using..."

Why can't it make sense?

[jmfox]

When are they planning on picking up the skirt on the HVX100?

jmf

[Barry_Green]

PKraft, your argument is logical from some angles, but not from others. For example: why should I have to rent a DVX, at $175/day, when I bought a $10,000 camera that Panasonic could build in a miniDV drive in for $40 or so? Makes no sense. Why *not* have DV tape in it? I mean, it's not like a VariCam that only records HD, this thing records DV as well, so why not let it record to tape?

If your approach was what they were planning (which, loosely summed up in the either-or terms you're using) would be "give me HD or give me death", then why does the camera offer SD recording at all? And not just SD, but DVCPRO25 and DV! It already records DV, it says so on the Panasonic website. So why not allow that DV to be recorded on the prevailing DV delivery method, DV tape? It would be incredibly limiting of them, not to mention irritating, if they were to provide DV recording but not allow you to actually record DV to its intended medium, which is DV tape.

And this is coming from a guy who hates tape, hates it more every day.

I'll say it again -- this camera is about options. It's about flexibility. Want 1080? You got it. Want 720? You got it. Want interlaced or progressive? No problem, we'll give you both. Want HD or SD? Why choose -- you can have both. Oh, and while we're at it, you can have 4:2:2 or 4:1:1 SD, which would you prefer? Wait, don't answer, you can have both.

With so much flexibility built in, I cannot understand why they'd move to say "yes, we know there's been 200 million DV cameras and decks sold, and yes we're letting you record DV, but we've decided to make it completely incompatible with every existing DV product out there, because you cannot record to tape." That makes no sense at all.

The DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO-HD recording to cards makes perfect sense -- the transport is way too expensive, if they'd put in tape transports for those formats they could never have built this camera at this price point. That's a compromise I'm more than happy to live with.

But for those jobs where you're hired to shoot DV, I'd much rather be able to use the $7,000 or $10,000 camera I've already bought, than have to rent another camera for $150-$175/day. I mean, think about it -- get a five-day job shooting a convention, do you really want to spend $700 in rental fees when, for maybe $50, Panasonic could have included a tape drive in the camera you already spent $8,000 for?

I'm not buying the argument. DV tape is a huge market right now. I've made a lot of money shooting DV just this year alone. Enough to buy an HVX or two or three. I'm certain that will continue to be a reality while we transition to HD -- and I am very convinced that the transition to HD will take a long time, at the bare minimum 2-3 years. Why would I want to give up the cash cow of DV shooting? And why would I want Panasonic to force me to choose -- especially when they're *not* forcing me to choose, anywhere else in the line? I mean, look at JVC: if you go with their camera, you're forced to accept that 720p is all you'll need, because there's no 1080p or 1080i option. AND, you're forced to accept that you'll never need to shoot the "reality" look, because it can't record 60p or 60i. Panasonic doesn't force you to make that choice, they let you have it all. That's why I believe they'll let us have it all as well -- existing productivity and bill-paying capability for hired-out gigs, as well as full productivity and incredible future-proofing with full HD recording.

[tjcolvin]

Well said Barry. Let me have my cake and eat it too. As well as eat the brownies, the chocolate chip cookies, the cheesecake....

[Rocketeer]

I thought this would of been a no brainer for Panasonic. All they had to do was create a DVX100 which was HDV and 24/25p. No p2 slots. Just a camera that went head to head with the HVR-Z1 and the point of difference for the buyer, like the DVX100 against the PD170 was the ability to record 24/25p.


There must be still room for this camera in there product line. How could it not sell well?

[MovieSwede]

Well i think panasonic didnt support HDV as its not a very good format.

People that today need HD is people that do proffesional work with it. And a format that is more compressed than MiniDV isnt what many prosumers wants. Myself likes to do colorcorrecting and stuff to my footage. And HDV isnt the best format for that.

I think Pana doing the right thing, when they give us DVCPRO HD.

[Phooey]

You know it just occurred to me that Panasonic could very easily be releasing the HDV100 (that would be the HDV version of the DVX) at NAB. They could be selling it there with the 24p and what not. They even would have made a lot of money doing it. But instead they're bypassing that and releasing a camera that is really a little ahead of itself (not even available for another 9 months) using P2 technology that is very forward thinking. They're basically saying, look, you'll have some work arounds at first, but the result is better. And to think that anyone would be complaining. I think Pana rocks for skipping over the whole HDV thing. No wonder they get to sleep with Apple.

[J.R. Hudson]

Well said Barry; and this is exactly how I see it. It makes ZERO sense whatsoever NOT to do it. I would be surprised and hard pressed to bet against this.

[reservoir]

Well said Barry; and this is exactly how I see it. It makes ZERO sense whatsoever NOT to do it. I would be surprised and hard pressed to bet against this.

I just automatically assumed it *WOULD* have a tape transport after seeing the "veiled" picture. Otherwise couldn't they have made it a *tad* bit smaller if it had no tape transport? Looks like it's relatively the same size at the DVX....maybe even slightly bigger. :huh:

~reservoir~

[Zig_Zigman]

PREDICTION: I think Panny will stun us all and come in way below the JVC in price.

They are out for blood, and have the disadvantage of Sony and JVC leaping into the water before them.

[reservoir]

It could happen. They own the 24p market and want to keep it that way. Cutting competitor's throats to keep their 24p *stranglehold* is a damn good strategy.

I'll put it like this.....let me fantasize......If Panny were *MY* company, I would undercut everyone's price *EVEN* if it meant losing money to keep my stranglehold on the 24p market. If you've got a "bomb-ass" camera that does everything and is cheaper than anybody else, you essentially aren't even giving customers a choice.....YOU ARE MAKING IT FOR THEM.....HVX200 it is !!

This business strategy is nothing new. The most recent company I can think of to do this is Microsoft with the XBOX. At first, they lost money on *EVERY* machine sold, but it paid off, cause' now they have Gamecube dominated and are edging closer to PS2.

Other companies adopting this strategy are Apple (mac mini / Some iPods) and Dell ($299 for a complete system)!!



~reservoir~

[J.R. Hudson]

LOL

Yeah really; I mean who even uses those other cameras? No serious.

(Ducks the rocks hurled)

[reservoir]

LOL

Yeah really; I mean who even uses those other cameras? No serious.

(Ducks the rocks hurled)


:grin: Good one BOSS!! :grin:

~reservoir~

[J.R. Hudson]

I always have to get that in and upset everyone.

[Luis Caffesse]

PREDICTION: I think Panny will stun us all and come in way below the JVC in price.

I can't help but keep thinking, other than finally showing us the camera, what does Panasonic have in store for Monday? I mean, don't you think they would keep something to suprise us with on the day. From the looks of it all the specs have been released..... so what is left?

1080P was a huge suprise. I surely didn't see that coming.
But I can't help but think they would save something else for NAB.

I know the camera sounds great already...
Am I crazy for thinking there is even more to this camera than we've been told?

I suppose the 'suprise' could be the inclusion of a tape transport.
Though I wouldn't exactly do flips over that.

[reservoir]

Just like a good suspense thriller....I am guessing we haven't got to the *TWIST* just yet. I'm guessing it'll be Monday!!

~reservoir~

[ArkhamFilms]

With so much flexibility built in, I cannot understand why they'd move to say "yes, we know there's been 200 million DV cameras and decks sold, and yes we're letting you record DV, but we've decided to make it completely incompatible with every existing DV product out there, because you cannot record to tape." That makes no sense at all.

I'm sure I'm one of the lone voices out there for this, but I hate the idea of a tape drive in the HVX jeaopardizing room for more P2 slots on this camera, or extra features that haven't been discussed yet.

I understand the need, with event videography, to have long record times, thus recording to tape. But why wouldn't you use a DVX if you're only worried about DV? Bringing an HD camera onto a DV job seems rather pointless, especially if your client notices the HD logo on the side and starts asking why they can't have their project in HD, since it's already on-site. I can only imagine the long headache inducing explanation to people not familiar with the technology. "So it costs more to flip a switch on that camera?"

Myself and my clients don't see the need or point of recording to DV ever again, after the HVX is released. Although, we're not in the event videography business.

Just my .02 cents.

-CJ

[Gary_McClurg]

Well, said, CJ

[J.R. Hudson]

I understand the need, with event videography, to have long record times...
-CJ[/QUOTE]


Makes sense though. How many damn cards and how much for 60 Minutes?

[ArkhamFilms]

How many damn cards and how much for 60 Minutes?

Well, with 2-3 8gb cards, you can have an infinite amount of time, by constantly switching them out. I think the fact is that this camera is not going to be suitable for event videography, as we know it, until the P2 capacity is higher.

-CJ

[reservoir]

Well, with 2-3 8gb cards, you can have an infinite amount of time, by constantly switching them out. I think the fact is that this camera is not going to be suitable for event videography, as we know it, until the P2 capacity is higher.

-CJ

Thank God for Firestore and HD recording.....coming soon to an HVX near you!! :thumbsup:

~reservoir~

[ArkhamFilms]

Thank God for Firestore and HD recording.....coming soon to an HVX near you!!

If that's true, even more reason not to worry about the HVX having a tape drive.

-CJ

[reservoir]

If that's true, even more reason not to worry about the HVX having a tape drive.

-CJ

Don't worry Arkham....I've already got Hudson's, Green's, and My *Jingle Bells* committed to saying "THERE WILL BE A HARD DISK OPTION" at some point. Hopefully at the release or shortly thereafter!!

Let's just hope were right, for the sake of our future kids!! :)

Arkham....off topic real quick....What happened to InLikeSin? Their website has been down FOREVER? Are they broken up? Let me know what *YOU* know!! Thanx!! :thumbsup:

~reservoir~

[ArkhamFilms]

Don't worry Arkham....I've already got Hudson's, Green's, and My *Jingle Bells* committed to saying "THERE WILL BE A HARD DISK OPTION"!!

Haha. Family jewels are worthy bets.


Arkham....off topic real quick....What happened to InLikeSin? Their website has been down FOREVER? Are the broken up? Let me know what *YOU* know!! :thumbsup: ~reservoir~

As far as I know, they're broken up. Which is a shame because we had a great music video planned for one of their songs. They're really a bunch of talented guys, but I don't think they knew how to take the next step without falling apart. The lead singer had to pull a lot of teeth just to get them to shoot the first video.

That's scary, a lot of the bands I've shot have kind of disappeared. I guess I can tack on "band killer" to my resume.

-CJ

[reservoir]

Haha. Family jewels are worthy bets.



As far as I know, they're broken up. Which is a shame because we had a great music video planned for one of their songs. They're really a bunch of talented guys, but I don't think they knew how to take the next step without falling apart. The lead singer had to pull a lot of teeth just to get them to shoot the first video.

That's scary, a lot of the bands I've shot have kind of disappeared. I guess I can tack on "band killer" to my resume.

-CJ

Awe man...that sucks!! Well, you did a damn good job on the Video and I really liked their other songs / music. Thanks for the info!!

~reservoir~

[Zim]

The big story on Monday will be you can buy the HVX now.

[PKraft]

Zim,
Jan said in another thread: Noneworking camera model at NAB.

[Neil Rowe]

Sorry, have to 100% disagree. If that was the case, why have SD at all on it? DV is definitely not part of the revolutionary future, it's clearly the past (and present), yet the camera supports DV. That's why I think it will have (it's got to have) a miniDV tape drive on it too. Nothing wrong with embracing the revolutionary future, but make sure that you can make a living with it today while we TRANSITION to that future!


..i actually hope your right, :) its just sort of my impression that they wanted the camera to be a new"out of the box camera" and that it would lack what P2 wants to destroy and replace. giving us the DV codec would allow for firewire DV out to regular DV devices.. that cannot read DVCPRO25..such as a DV based NLE , or my little PV-DV103.. so i can chain it to the HVX and stick a tape in it and record to DV ..or stream DV out to a firestoreDV. ..so that was where i sort of lean as to why its there. ..but its still going to be revolutionary in my book if it happend to have a tape drive for DV. and id rather it be there.. as well as firewire out. no matter. wrong or right ..im buyin it either way. lol well see soon enough, and again, for both our sakes, i hope your right. ..im just being a little skeptical.. sort of the "too good to be true syndrome thing here" ..mix it with a little devils advocate to keep the cogs in our heads working, and viola! :beer:

[planetearth]

Just....

[planetearth]

....could....

[planetearth]

....not....

[planetearth]

....resist....

[Neil Rowe]

oheg


edit: BWAHAHAHAAHAHAH! :) ..i quickly typed "oheg" and slipped in under the radar.. hilarious!:beer:
...anyhow.. i have nothing of importance to say i guess.