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View Full Version : Thoughts from the BandPro F3 Open House



Ryan Patrick O'Hara
01-21-2011, 08:01 PM
Today I attended the BandPro F3 open house, and got to play with the camera. It was a pretty nice little cam, light weight and etc. Handling it, it's built and feels like a prosumer camera, meaning it really feels like an HVX200 or Ex-3 on steroids. Meaning it didn't feel like a rugged studio camera, but it felt super light, fast, and versatile. So you've got an HVX200/EX-3 form factor/setup with a S35mm chip sensor. Pretty cool hybrid type feel, if you ask me. Same plasticy molded body, but with some serious connections and buttons. I want to thank the helpful staff at BandPro who had the patience to answer my questions and for letting me hog the camera for a small lens test!

The thing has more inputs and outputs than I've ever seen in a camera that size. Timecode in-out, dual sdi, etc. It was pretty darn sensitive and the image looked great. I was told the asa/iso was native around 800 and it could only be adjusted by units of gain. It had all the usual suspects as far as features. The LCD was tiny, but we also had a huge monitor, so I didn't feel inadequate. Someone else panned the camera furiously looking for wobble, and I have to say it was minimal. Leaps and bounds over DSLR's. And thank god.

The i/technology PL mount was operative. Worked with both the Sony 35mm PL lens, and my Cooke 32mm PL lens. I tried to get the BandPro employee to see if we could get the read out in exact feet on the screen, as the monitor simply showed a digital version of the focus scale and had a small bar which would tell you where you were. Kind of useless, as it was just a graphical representation of what I could simply see on the lens. I was hoping for a ft readout, so if I was focused between 10 and 15 feet on the barrel, it would say 13.5 or 12 feet, and I'd know where I was in the in-between void. Strangely enough the aperture said f/stops when both lenses were rated in T/stops... also taking this into account. Meaning the T/2 Sony lens would say F/1.9 when wide open, and my Cooke T/2.8 wide open said something to the effect of F/2.6 or something. I don't remember, but it was odd that it was reading in F/stops but knew so. It might be in the menu options to get a true foot readout and a T/stop readout, however it was not setup that way.

The PL mount was also very off. It's an adapter that attaches to the camera, and it needed to be shimmed desperately. The chart we were focusing on was about 30 feet away, but after critical focusing on my lenses (which are correct back focus) the readout on the barrel was like 18ft. It was pretty bad. The flange distance was very off, but is of course able to be shimmed.

Sony PL lenses.
The Sony PL was another big item of interest for me. It is what you pay for. The lens looks decent, optically. There was only one of them, so I have no way of telling if they are properly color matched... which is a big thing for me. After playing with it, I'd rather go with top-notch photography lenses, than these... unless they were color matched. But then again even if they are perfectly color matched... there's only three of them 35mm-85mm. WTF. Nothing below 35mm? I consider 25mm a nice lens, and an 18mm essential. Sure it won't be used all the time, but I can't imagine never being wider than a 35mm. Just me.

So here is why I didn't like the 35mm PL Sony:
It's HUGE. It's about as big as a RedProPrime. Seems unnecessary with all things considered. It's plastic. Through and through. Everything feels like cheap plastic... like it's made out of the same thing as the camera body. Yikes. The focus ring has more problems, mechanically, than any PL cine lens I've ever used. First thing I knew going in, was that the focus marks on the barrel does not have any accompanying 'line' marks. Thus if you want to set the lens on 10ft, I guess you just get the line in the middle of the 10. There is nothing that tell you the exact focusing mark. Perhaps if there is a menu option to display the i/technology as mentioned above, this won't be detrimental to production, but just a not well thought out feature. Next issue is back-lash. This brand new lens had gear backlash. Basically, when going in one direction, the gears are moving against each other, but if the gears aren't well fit together, there is a little bit of space in the gears, so when you switch direction the gears have a gap of space to pass through before they touch the other side of the opposing gear, thus there is a hard hit and it can jump the optics a bit inside causing a jump in the image. It's there, but not super horrible like some old lenses I have. None the less, I pulled the focus ring back and forth several times, and every-time I did so with any gusto, I could see the back-lash jump the image. If done carefully, people probably won't notice, but it shows the mechanics of a brand new lens being less than anything to gawk about. Not that it matters but there was a defect in the plastic gear ring on the aperture. One of the teeth wasn't molded properly and was warped causing it to block block the gap where the teeth of the opposing gear should go. Surely would skip off a lens motor or jam a ff. It was on the dumb side of camera, and perhaps is only an issue if you had a lens motor or FF unit for an iris pull on dumb side. Again, not going to ruin a production, but shows you the quality these lenses are built to. Both iris and focus rings turned just fine, however none of them with the strong and reassuring feeling of Zeiss, or the smooth silky smooth feel of Cooke. The Sony had a real friction like plastic drag feel and it rubbed kinda rough and I could feel some faint grit like feeling near one side of the focus scale.

What I liked about the Sony 35mm PL prime:
It is terribly affordable. The most affordable PL mount primes on the market, no doubt. They are T/2. The image is decent. I expected this much. I kinda knew the image would be decent, and the mechanics horrible. That's really the case. I didn't do any big lens tests, but nothing stood out visually when looking for defects. Breathing was actually pretty good when racking from 30 ft to 4 feet, comparable to much greater lenses. Despite the huge size, the lens was surprisingly lighter than it appeared, a positive effect of the awful plastic lens housing. I/technology... is awesome. I was surprised to see it on these lenses, but under consideration due to the lack of witness mark lines accompanying the feet marks, if they can get the feet to show up as a number on the LCD, this is a must if trying to focus off a measured mark! A must.


Over all, if this lens is a sign for how the others will be, even with the great price, it would be hard to purchase a set... It's a decent image, but unless they are color matched with more focal lengths on the way, I'd stay away.

I'd rather spend that money (7k) on Zeiss Nikon's, ZE's or Leica lenses. Sure they are photography lenses, and they lack many features cine-lenses usually have (mainly mechanics and color/contrast reproduction), but since these lenses perform so horribly doing those things, you might as well just buy the lenses for the image quality. Despite the Sony PL's not being bad in image quality, it's nothing to write home about in regards to the image and especially the mechanics. So basically, I thought the image of the Sony PL's was decent but mechanics pretty weak... I'd rather just go for top image quality and go top-shelf photography lenses versus bottom shelf cine lenses.

My .02. Go try these out for yourself, and for those new to PL lenses and proper cinema mechanics, I suggest you try a decent set of cinema lenses to compare these to.

Joe Walker
01-21-2011, 08:24 PM
No surprises there on the Sony lenses Ryan, but what did you think of the imagery? Compared to other cameras was it good/bad/ugly/wonderful/hard to tell? And other than a plastic body would you say that it's ready for prime time, or any other thoughts? Would you feel comfortable shooting with it tomorrow? Was it a complete camera or a 75% - 95% complete prototype, etc.? Details details details.

HHL
01-21-2011, 08:24 PM
Thanks for taking time to write this up. Great info.

Nate Weaver
01-21-2011, 08:33 PM
I went today also and ran some footage off to take home.

So far, it is holding up extremely well to the Alexa tests I've shot as well, on a properly driven Dreamcolor monitor. That is to say, I haven't seen much difference at all between the two in the pixel peeping I've done so far.

My aim today was to take some footage home and make a final 'yay' or 'nay' on purchase, having sold my Red last year. It's a 'yay' for me. Don't think ill miss my red at all.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
01-21-2011, 08:44 PM
No surprises there on the Sony lenses Ryan, but what did you think of the imagery? Compared to other cameras was it good/bad/ugly/wonderful/hard to tell? And other than a plastic body would you say that it's ready for prime time, or any other thoughts? Would you feel comfortable shooting with it tomorrow? Was it a complete camera or a 75% - 95% complete prototype, etc.? Details details details.

There was not a Sony rep there, and the Bandpro staff, as helpful and amazing as they were, had about a couple more hours logged on the camera than I did, so they weren't experts at the small and detailed tasks. Nobody mentioned if the camera was prototype, but considering it's supposed to be out in february or something like that, it's getting late in the game to not be 99% production ready model. Same with the lens they shipped with the camera.

The image looked really good. I had them connect an AJA recorder to it and I took Apple Pro Res video clips of my 'lens test'. The image looked great. If I didn't have a R1, I'd definitely consider this camera. I was very impressed with it and can only imagine what I could do with it should I ever become so well versed with it like I have been with Panasonic products and Red1's. The things has more buttons, controls, inputs and outputs than anything I've messed with before in it's class.

My biggest concern if shooting on it tomorrow would be the PL mount. I know it's hard to get it perfect, but I expected the mount adapter made for this camera to at least be close. But alas, it was considerably off in flange depth, and it sure needed a shim job. Otherwise the workflow with the AJA or even the SxS (which another guy did with his lens test) is just as simple as before.

It looks like an amazing camera, and didn't lack any features I could think of, from earlier. The LCD is tiny, and now that the DoF is (relatively) shallower, I'd prefer a larger picture to look at. The camera also couldn't do simultaneous outputs except for the dual SDI stuff. I remember this because our friend from Cineroid was there with his unit, and was finding multiple monitor outs was effecting the HDMI connection. I don't remember specifically what, but he frequents these boards, so you can find out.

But otherwise, it seems to be a great camera. The image looked very good, the scene file we had loaded was very saturated and the colors really popped.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
01-21-2011, 08:51 PM
Regarding the Sony PL...

Strange thing was the Cooke lens let in more light versus the Sony PL at the same camera settings and T/stop. Meaning the Sony PL either is slower than the T/stops advertised, or the Cooke is faster than the T/2.8 stop it advertises. The difference was quite large. I think my lenses are very accurate, so perhaps the Sony is T/2.5? Maybe something was bumped on the camera, but I checked all settings so I don't think so. Just a strange occurrence.

Nate Weaver
01-21-2011, 09:02 PM
Nobody mentioned if the camera was prototype, but considering it's supposed to be out in february or something like that, it's getting late in the game to not be 99% production ready model. Same with the lens they shipped with the camera.

I saw the camera in detail as it came out of the case. It had a big sticker on the bottom that said "Demo Only". Based on the shape of the case, the sticker, and that the newest pics of the camera I've seen have a CineAlta and XDCAM EX badges that this camera was missing, I'd say this camera was one of the original engineering samples students were shooting with back in November.


The image looked really good. I had them connect an AJA recorder to it and I took Apple Pro Res video clips of my 'lens test'. The image looked great.

I agree. As I blabbered above, this sensor seems to be all that and bag of chips.


My biggest concern if shooting on it tomorrow would be the PL mount. I know it's hard to get it perfect, but I expected the mount adapter made for this camera to at least be close. But alas, it was considerably off in flange depth, and it sure needed a shim job. Otherwise the workflow with the AJA or even the SxS (which another guy did with his lens test) is just as simple as before.

I believe Andy Shipsides from Abel has mentioned (blog? or maybe video review?) that there has been a revision on how the PL adapter adjusts flange back since the first F3s that people got to see (and I think we saw an old one today). I don't think it was ever shims, but some sort of threaded system not unlike the current Red PL mech. Regardless, he went out of his way to mention it as I recall.

Joe Walker
01-21-2011, 09:08 PM
Meaning there is a fix to Ryan's concerns?

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
01-21-2011, 09:09 PM
I believe Andy Shipsides from Abel has mentioned (blog? or maybe video review?) that there has been a revision on how the PL adapter adjusts flange back on the first F3s that people got to see. I don't think it was ever shims, but some sort of threaded system not unlike the current Red PL mech. Regardless, he went out of his way to mention it as I recall.

That's good! I hope so. Even better if they do it the way Red did. We (BandPro guy and I) looked specifically at the PL mount to see if we could adjust the flange depth. We took it off the camera and examined it. At this time, there wasn't any kind of adjustment we could have done, besides shimming it. Perhaps the PL adapter will be a whole new unit then?

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
01-21-2011, 09:14 PM
Oh, the only other thing that was a concern for some, but not myself, was the 60fps at 720 only. I don't do that much off-speed work and if I do I go phantom or Red, so this would not effect my desire to use the camera. As far as Alexa, the F3 didn't hold latitude near as much as Alexa can, from what I could tell nor does it compete with ArriRaw, and other features. With that said, the F3 is a great camera from what I could tell thus far. I've arranged to go back and doing more tests, in a couple of weeks. I was told another (or the same) camera would be back then.

Nate Weaver
01-21-2011, 09:51 PM
As far as Alexa, the F3 didn't hold latitude near as much as Alexa can

Not with the way the camera as set up today, no. I think when S-log gets underway though, it will be close, based on the noise levels (or specifically, lack thereof) in the blacks of the files I took home today. I'm lifting them far far far in the DaVinci and they're very much without texture or noise.

It's frightenly close, in my opinion, for the price. Far sight better than the original Red sensor.

Mitch Gross
01-21-2011, 10:43 PM
The flange depth is not adjusted on the adapter mount, it is adjusted on the camera by turning a worm gear which moves the sensor front & back on a track. It is extremely accurae and easy to do, but on the prototype model (that one at BandPro today is the same one we've had here), the locking friction is a little loose. Meaning that the depth probably slipped during shipping. If you look at the camera head on (into the lens port), the screw knob is at about 10:30 on the front face of the camera outside the mount. Just need a screwdriver.

Go to the photos tab on our website and it's pretty visible in the second image:

http://www.abelcine.com/store/Sony-PMW-F3L-Super-35mm-XDCAM-EX-Camera-body-only-DEPOSIT/#tabs


As for the commentsw on the lens, please understnd that the lens making the rounds is just as much a prototype as the camera. Perhaps more so.

Ryan Patrick O'Hara
01-22-2011, 04:33 AM
The flange depth is not adjusted on the adapter mount, it is adjusted on the camera by turning a worm gear which moves the sensor front & back on a track. It is extremely accurae and easy to do, but on the prototype model (that one at BandPro today is the same one we've had here), the locking friction is a little loose. Meaning that the depth probably slipped during shipping. If you look at the camera head on (into the lens port), the screw knob is at about 10:30 on the front face of the camera outside the mount. Just need a screwdriver.

Go to the photos tab on our website and it's pretty visible in the second image:

http://www.abelcine.com/store/Sony-PMW-F3L-Super-35mm-XDCAM-EX-Camera-body-only-DEPOSIT/#tabs


As for the commentsw on the lens, please understnd that the lens making the rounds is just as much a prototype as the camera. Perhaps more so.

Excellent. I'll check it out. As far as the lens, maybe they can take my feedback and improve the product, if it's indeed a prototype. Because of right now, what I said about the lens is completely true. If they improve it, so be it. I hope they do. But until then that is the lens they have.

TimurCivan
02-20-2011, 11:47 PM
Alot of the issues are resolved as far as back focus. Mine is accurate to the inch on my panchros.

One things i was testing today was 10bit 422 capture to Uncompressed. Its a world apart from XDcam. More resolution, more color, less noise. As good as it looks on a monitor, thats what you get in the recording.

HD Studio Belgium
02-21-2011, 01:13 AM
That's good! I hope so. Even better if they do it the way Red did. We (BandPro guy and I) looked specifically at the PL mount to see if we could adjust the flange depth. We took it off the camera and examined it. At this time, there wasn't any kind of adjustment we could have done, besides shimming it. Perhaps the PL adapter will be a whole new unit then?

The production model I have has the possibility to adjust the flange focal length by means of an adjustment screw on the mount. It uses an 7/64 Allen wrench for the adjustment.