View Full Version : Why DVCPRO25?
Here's all I can come up with. Either there will be a tape option so you can record long takes for say a documentary, or it was just no sweat to add that feature to fill out the feature list. Why would you use DVCPRO25 in SD when DVCPRO50 is there? If it is all just P2, you get double the record time. But with the cards not having much record room (even the near future cards), why wouldn't anyone go for the better color sampling instead of the few extra minutes?
There's something here that seems suspect. My guess is there will be a MiniDV option for the DVCPRO25. The alternatives just seem like padding.
03-22-2005, 01:59 PM
If I remember right, Jan once said, that in the new camera there would be no motorized section without the one for the zoom lens. But maybe the motorized MiniDV section will be running at DVCPRO25 only, and when You are stepping to 50 or HD, then the motor will be out... Just an imagination, but it would be cool, would it not?
DVCPRO can not record to mini DV tape. that's the reason why the DVX for example, records "normal" DV and no DVCPRO. . . if i understood right
So Panasonic already has a kick ass camera that records essentially the equivelant to DVCPRO25 right? Is there any benefit to DVCPRO over DV on MiniDV? Aren't they both the same data rate and color sampling? If there is a difference, what is it?
Out of curiosity, why couldn't DVCPRO25 be recorded to MiniDV? 50 and HD make sense on the basis of data rate, but what's the catch with 25?
03-22-2005, 03:04 PM
dvcpro25 is the same datarate as minidv. its more durable, similar to how dvcam is dv tape spun faster. its the same compression format, just less likely to dropout.
So it's physical limitations of the tape? Tensile strength of MiniDV isn't there? But then why bother with DVCPRO25 when the option for 50 is there? That would just leave a longer record time with the color sampling comprimise.
Is it really that simple/all there is to it?
03-22-2005, 06:06 PM
There'll be no tape on this camera folks- only P2.
03-22-2005, 06:14 PM
Oddly, I posted that the camera would be P2 a couple weeks ago, then corrected myself, assuming that I'd misheard or misinterpreted the Panasonic sales guy.
03-22-2005, 07:27 PM
Okay, the difference between DV and DVCPRO25 is primarily the tape that it's recorded on, and the way it's recorded on tape. DV and DVCPRO25 are bitstream compatible (except in PAL, where it's 4:1:1).
So the main advantage to DVCPRO25 is that it's a lot more rugged, dropout-proof format, which is one reason why it's found success in news stations.
My guess is that the reason this camera can record DVCPRO25 is that it's recording that to the P2 card, just like DVCPRO50 and DVCPROHD. As long as they're recording to memory, it doesn't cost anything additional to add DVCPRO25 on top of DV.
Why would someone want to record DVCPRO25 instead of DVCPRO50? Twice the record time, for one. DVCPRO25 will get you 16 minutes of recording in a small 4gb card, vs. 8 minutes of DVCPRO50. Another reason you might want to record DVCPRO25 would be if your editing system doesn't support DVCPRO50. A third reason might be if you're shooting freelance for a news station, and the news station only supports DVCPRO25 (which is, basically the same reason as the second one I guess).
03-23-2005, 06:11 AM
..yeah, there will likely be times when its useful or needed, so i just say "why not"? alot of people will likely replace their DVX or other DV camera with one of these, and having the DVCPRO-25 option should/could/would allow them to continue working with their existing DV equipment and workflow if needed.
03-23-2005, 08:51 AM
NoaH has this been confirmed by Jan or is this just a guess? I sure hope it has no tape. No more gears and tape heads etc. Wow, this is going to be a big new step in acquisition.
Jan if your out there can you confirm this as well?
There'll be no tape on this camera folks- only P2.
03-23-2005, 09:26 AM
My post about there being no tape is my guess. I've not seen this camera but I am looking forward to it. :)
Hmm- I wonder about the DVCPRO25 though. Is error correction even needed on a tapeless camera? Do digital still cameras do this?
03-23-2005, 09:30 AM
..yeah, the fact that its not a machine containing parts with a limited lifespan should mean that it holds its resale value better as well. (that is if anyone was sacreligous enough to actually sell one..lol.. wheres my eyes rolling smiley? i miss that thing.)
03-23-2005, 12:32 PM
Well, I certainly hope that there is a tape drive, of some type. A miniDV tape, at least. I despise tape, but there's still a place for it in the shooter's workflow. Cheap field recording, the kind where you hand off a tape at the end of the day, is still a big part of my business, so I'd love to have one camera that does it all. I for one have no problem with doing the P2/dump-to-hard-disk/hand-over-hard-disk workflow, in fact I very much look forward to it, but more options are always better, and I think it'd be better if the camera at least has a miniDV tape drive. I have many clients who are used to getting a DV tape, and while I believe the new workflow and the quality would be superior with P2 delivered on hard disk, it'd be nice to be able to cater to the existing clients in a way that they're comfortable/established, and at least offer them the choice.
I don't mind if there's no HD tape or DVCPRO50 tape, that's totally fine. But it'd be nice if there was a miniDV tape drive.
03-23-2005, 12:52 PM
you make a very good point there. i wonder if it doesnt have a tape drive, if it still has an external control via firewire or something(like the DVX)so you could bring a small deck cam to record on tape with via external recoding control. and would the old cam work with DVCPRO25?
03-23-2005, 01:04 PM
i dunno. If I were a client I think I'd love to get my footage already sitting on a hard drive ready to edit, rather than a stack of tapes I have to waste a day logging and digitizing. Especially true if you're renting an edit bay. Producers will adore this.
03-23-2005, 01:26 PM
Agreed! I hate the lengthy capturing process. On occasion, I do live events with 4 cams, for some of them, it's four 2-hour shows in 2 days. That's 32 tapes, plus the prep and post interviews, that's an additional 8 tapes; totaling 40 tapes. That's 40 hours of capturing! Gives me shivers everytime I think about it. Makes me wish I had the nerves of steel to do live switching... but that's another ball game. I was going to go hard drive, but those specialized hard drives are quite pricey. I just hope that the HDX will be able to use standard firewire (or dare I say USB2) hard drives as a means of recording.
03-23-2005, 01:40 PM
Based on some not-that-subtle reading between the lines of Jan's comments and other reported information attributed to "Panasonic officials", there will be *no* tape drive. If you want to record a 25Mbs datastream to tape--buy a DVX100. Panasonic is betting all it's chips (ha!) on the continued drop in the price of flash memory and that's a pretty good bet. If the camera is released very late in 2005, they've got nearly a year before even the early adopters start buying P2 cards.
It does sound like there will be disk-based recording option from Panny, so in any case this is going to be a strictly DTE cam.
From what I have gathered there will be no tape drive. But hypothetically, couldn't MiniDV tapes be made at higher tensile strength with shorter record times to accommodate a faster speed? From my limited knowledge of old school audio cassettes, that's what differentiated them, shorter tapes had higher tensile strength/better quality. Or does it also need to be physically wider.
I highly doubt they will do this, but it's possible right?
03-23-2005, 01:59 PM
I just hope that the HDX will be able to use standard firewire (or dare I say USB2) hard drives as a means of recording.
Why wouldn't it work? The IEEE 1394 Firewire specification states firewire to be 400mbps (Mega BITS per second) which equates to 50MBps (Mega BYTES per second). And the new Firewire 800 spec is rated is 800mbps or 100MBps. And I don't see why the new HDX wouldn't use the updated Firewire 800 spec for out to Hard Drive capturing such as Firestore and DV rack type stuff. ~reservoir~
03-23-2005, 02:41 PM
I highly doubt they will do this, but it's possible right?
Anything is possible, but I don't think there's any chance of them doing it. It would mean creating a new, proprietary, noninterchangeable format that can only be used with this one camera. P2, the way they've gone, is using several existing formats, and the cards are directly compatible with basically every laptop in the world. No hassles, no problems, no additional equipment to buy, direct compatibility with stuff that's out there now.
Whereas if they recorded their HD on a miniDV tape (by running it at 4x the speed or whatever else they'd need to do), then you're talking about needing a new deck, or only ever capturing from the camera, which means interchangeability (i.e., handing over a tape to someone else) is out...
If they're going to have a tape drive, I would want it to be compliant with industry standards (or, so incredibly fantastically superior -- and affordable -- that industry adoption would be a "given").
If I were a client I think I'd love to get my footage already sitting on a hard drive ready to edit, rather than a stack of tapes I have to waste a day logging and digitizing. Especially true if you're renting an edit bay. Producers will adore this.
Oh, I absolutely and thoroughly agree -- I wrote a big huge post over on the Cow describing this. I think it's the perfect workflow. But -- the customer is always right. If your client is hiring you to deliver him some DV tapes, then by gum, that's what you'd better do, that's all I'm saying. If the client's flexible, you'd better believe I'll talk 'em into HD delivered pre-digitized on a hard disk, ready to edit, and I'll get all their repeat business because they'll save hours and hours and hours of digitizing/logging/searching/hunting time. It's a better workflow, by far.
But I'd like to preserve the option, because there are some people who want what they want (even if it's not better), and for those customers, you give them what they want or you don't get the job. DV is an established workflow, been around for a decade now, people know it and they're used to it. They'll quickly adapt to the new workflow because it's so much better, that I firmly believe, but... things don't always move so fast.
I was just shooting a couple of episodes for a reality TV show for CGTV, and the editor had never seen a DVX before. He's an accomplished editor, been doing it for years, he works on an Avid, and they don't even digitize through firewire. He'd never seen a DVX. He was blown away and left the shoot declaring that he was going to buy one, but the point is, he wanted a tape because that's all he knew how to work with. There will be others like him. There will be a transition period.
And yes, for those customers, if Panasonic doesn't include a tape drive in the HDX, I could always just bring the DVX...
i think.. replacing the DVX with the HDX wouldn't be possible at the moment for me. so much for the "panasonic are too late" bulls.. we might have to keep our good old baby (how can a baby be old?!?) for a little longer and there goes some budget for the new one too...
i work regularly with productions from abroad that come to shoot here, i can't deliver hard disks to them. although that would be so fuking cool.
i sense revolution. that's what Panasonic have in their agenda for us folks. i start to think that the DVX was only a warm up to what might start 3 weeks from now...
:shocked: :lipsrseal :undecided :shocked: :laugh: :cheesy:< me freaking out from anticipation
03-23-2005, 03:55 PM
You could still easily run your footage out to tape if that's what the client needs via FW or your NLE. All you would need would be another deck or cam to hold the tape. Think about how nice it would be to have a tape output as an optional afterthought rather than a neccesity. And you'd be guaranteed no TC breaks. Clients would love that.