SDX900 and DVX100

[pranic]

I am starting to get a little worried about the investment we've made in our SDX900 and DVX100a cameras for a documentary that's already five months into production. Originally, we were wanting to purchase the varicam but it was out of our budget range.

With the upcoming HDXxxx camera being able to shoot DV50 and HD, and being under $10000, I'd almost consider selling the SDX900 to get an HD 24p camera or two.

Would this be completely crazy? If the HDX is significantly under the $10,000 price range (e.g. $6000), I'd probably replace the DVX100 pretty quickly as a second camera, so I could at least shoot in DV50 just like the SDX.

Thoughts?

[Neil Rowe]

unless the doc was going to be HD id certainly keep the SDX for the SD production. the HDX will presumably have its advantages over the DVX though. espescially if your not shooting "low light" aka "too stinking dark of conditions for any sort of professional production with a video camera"

[Policar]

Don't worry, I think discovery channel considers the SDX to be so good that they'll accept up-res'ed SDX footage and no other footage with standard definition origins for HDTV. I watched a lot of Arrested Development on Fox (shot like a documentary, with minimal lighting and handheld cameras) and it looked so much better than any prosumer footage I've ever seen, high-def or standard definition.

I think you're just showing off that you have an SDX....and you should keep it. 2/3'' chips will always beat 1/3''.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Your SDX and your DVX continues to be a sound investment. I would bet that the SDX footage uprezzed will beat the fooage coming off the P2 Hd cam. It certainly does the HDV cameras, easily. So keep in mind that you have started a production path, finish it. Sailors in chopy water only lose if they leave hold of the rudder.

The P2 HD camera will not deliver until later this year. So don't worry, you are in a fine position with a very nice working group of equipment.

Best regards,

Jan

[scharky]

remember, as Jan is saying, resoltuion is just one factor in the equasion. If you factor in CCD size, Lens type, and Lattitude control, the SDX has any other camera that you are considering beat by a long shot.

[xander76]

I watched a lot of Arrested Development on Fox (shot like a documentary, with minimal lighting and handheld cameras) and it looked so much better than any prosumer footage I've ever seen, high-def or standard definition.


[Off topic] Actually, Arrested Development is shot with two Varicams, so that's not very surprising. I think I read somewhere that the pilot was shot with SDX900s, but I can't find a reference to that anywhere, so I might have made it up. The series is definitely shot with Varicam, though. Also off topic: brilliant show. [/Off topic]

[Policar]

Looks like you're right....I read they shot something with the SDX900, though, so that probably was the pilot. I also read that they shot pick ups with a DVX, but I'm not sure if that's true either. Anyhow, the show is hilarious and looks great.

[kyle_doris]

are you crazy? i'd MUCH rather have an SDX900 over the new HD unit pany is coming out with. that camera owns. i've seen footage on the big screen @ Du-Art between the Varicam and the SDX900, and honestly. the SDX holds up HUGE.

i can't believe for a second that this HD unit will have the type of quality as a full bonafied professional camera, even if the resolution is slightly lower i'd say all the other features of the SDX outweigh the resolution.

[abeljerrod]

I am starting to get a little worried about the investment we've made in our SDX900 and DVX100a cameras for a documentary that's already five months into production. Originally, we were wanting to purchase the varicam but it was out of our budget range. ...

Thoughts?

The other thing to keep in mind, especially as you are shooting a documentary where you don't always exactly "have control" of the situations you are shooting, is the recording times that the new P2 camera will be limited too, especially in the HD format. Considering that you can get up to 60+ minutes of recording time using the DVCPRO tape stock and (please correct me if I am wrong Jan) less than 10 minutes per P2 card at the 100 megabit HD setting, you could be severly limiting yourself with the P2 cards as they stand now. I have heard the rumblings of larger cards and, of course, you can always rotate cards but it sounds like for what you are doing your package is great!

[Robert_Niemann]

Well, at present it looks this way:

AJ-P2C002SG 2 GB P2 Card DVCPRO100/HD: 2 Min.
AJ-P2C004HG 4 GB P2 Card DVCPRO100/HD: 4 Min.
AJ-P2C008HG 8 GB P2 Card DVCPRO100/HD: 8 Min.

[shAi]

Well, at present it looks this way:

AJ-P2C002SG 2 GB P2 Card DVCPRO100/HD: 2 Min.
AJ-P2C004HG 4 GB P2 Card DVCPRO100/HD: 4 Min.
AJ-P2C008HG 8 GB P2 Card DVCPRO100/HD: 8 Min.

:undecided doesn't look promising to me.. not until we'll get to see a 30GB card in a reasonable price.. and how long will that take? some years i would say.

i just try to get into Panasonic's head here.. maybe the answer will be, again, switchability. the perfect camera for the SD to HD crossover times. DV 25/50/100, tape/P2 (for HD), progressive / interlace -- sounds good. i'm sure it will make some people like to invest on such a variable machine.

but i see no HD for me soon...

i do like to imagine though "christmas 2032 HDXuser.com P2 offer - 60GB for only $59!!!" :grin:

[Jan_Crittenden]

shAi said:undecided :doesn't look promising to me.. not until we'll get to see a 30GB card in a reasonable price.. and how long will that take? some years i would say.


Since you don't know the price of the camera, the size of the cards and the price of the cards, it does seem premature to make decisions. The reality is that when the 2 gig card was introduced it was only 6 months before the 4 gig card was introduced, and then yesterday I saw an ad for the 2 gig SD card(P2 takes 4 of these), and the price of the 1 gig SD card had fallen like a rock to about $89. So the 8Gig P2 card will be here this fall and probably will be 16 gig by fall next year easily, but could be up to 32; time and customer demand will call the engineering forward on the SD card. Thing is there is lots of competition in the SD card arena.

>i just try to get into Panasonic's head here.. maybe the answer will be, again, switchability. the perfect camera for the SD to HD crossover times. DV 25/50/100, tape/P2 (for HD), progressive / interlace -- sounds good. i'm sure it will make some people like to invest on such a variable machine.

Not sure what you are trying to say here, but there is no way that a DVCPRO transport could fit in a small camcorder, if it was possible we would have done it by now. P2 allows us to make the extensible DVCPRO algorithm available on an affordable scale.


>but i see no HD for me soon...

So use the camera in SD, hey even DVCPRO50, 4:2:2, 3.3: compression is a step up from DV, 4:1:1, %:1 compression.

>i do like to imagine though "christmas 2032 HDXuser.com P2 offer - 60GB for only $59!!!"

If you really think that it will take till 2032 to get memory that low, you haven't been paying attention to the cost of memory. Memory prices are sufficiently variable that to print a price sheet is a waste of effort. To put a price on the web means that we woud have to update all the time.

We should all just keep an open mind.

Best,

Jan

[Barry_Green]

Plus, keep in mind that the one-minute-per-gigabyte idea is only applicable if you're recording the full 100-megabit data stream (such as would be necessary if you're shooting 1080i or 720/60p). If you're shooting 720/24p, it should be able to record two and a half minutes per gigabyte. At that rate an 8gb card should be able to store 20 minutes of HD footage.

[shAi]

thanks Jan and Barry for some clarifying.
i'll keep open mind and hope for a good camera :)

[xray]

We should all just keep an open mind.
So we do, open mind for future projects, face it: there is no small HD camera now, Panasonic not even has a small native 16:9 camera for sale. They just told the world some months ago that there will be a camera in the future, and they tell you more at the NAB. And next year, you will see a 16 Gig P2 card. And maybe you see a HighDefinition screen somewhere in a living.

In Europe there is no need for HD we just shoot and broadcast 16:9 mostly, 95% television sales is widescreen SD. But we keep a open mind for future developments. As shooting on handy small memorycards. And finding a way to edit and store material, to shoot long format programs and documentary. Downconverting HD shoots, using native 16:9 small camera's, creating programs for the internet channels.
And we DO see our own shoots, it isn't a factory where someone shoots and never sees the material again. We keep our eyes open. Transformation from SD and tape --->? HD and memorycards is not worked out next month.

[Shaw]

xray,

Jan works for Panasonic. There are clearly things which she cannot tell us yet but she's dropped some hints. Let's just wait until NAB and actually see what things are like before making any sort of judgement....

EDIT: Can't type :P

[Zig_Zigman]

Well, Jan and Panny want you to buy into proprietary technology; they are going to war against Sony's various flavors of xdcam and whatever....and JVC and Canon hanging around the fringes trying muscle into the game. All sides point out all the flaws of the other, which is always helpful.... ;-)

I have no preference, except for the fact Panny always seems to go the extra step in listening to what filmmakers want. I'm pretty sure they will toss in a card with the cam, and that cards will be cheap enough for all but the strictly documentary types to use.

At least as a consumer you can choose the codec/solution/style that seems to fit; while editing facilities might be in for an expensive future to stay abreast of everything.

[Barry_Green]

Editing systems have certainly been challenged recently. HDV is coming along; FCP and Avid expect to have HDV compatibility by mid-year, and Vegas will likely announce HDV compatibility (without having to use CineForm) at NAB. Then JVC comes along and announces a new format... and Sony's hinting at a new format for their XDCAM blu-ray disc...

DVCPRO-HD is already fully integrated into FCP and Avid. Hopefully Vegas and Premiere will adopt it as well.

[Stas_Tagios]

[Off topic] Actually, Arrested Development is shot with two Varicams, so that's not very surprising. I think I read somewhere that the pilot was shot with SDX900s, but I can't find a reference to that anywhere, so I might have made it up. The series is definitely shot with Varicam, though. Also off topic: brilliant show. [/Off topic]

They used the Varicam for season one, then switched to Sony HDW-900s.

[Neil Rowe]

DVCPRO-HD is already fully integrated into FCP and Avid. Hopefully Vegas and Premiere will adopt it as well.

my fingers are crossed tightly hoping for that as well.. but if not, we can still hope that the alternative ..using cineform's "prospect HD" isnt an arm and a leg when they release the software for direct sale sometime this month as they say. Avid's express HD is apx 1500.00 so if cineform sells for less than that and lets us stay with our choice of vegas- ppro, it might be a toss up. ..pending what each package has to offer to the individual.

[Barry_Green]

The thing about Cineform is that you won't ever get direct firewire preview on your monitor. With DVCPRO-HD it's possible. DVCPRO-HD has the potential to work exactly like DV does, because it is in effect DV -- just four DV codecs ganged together, for a simple explanation. So you should be able to edit/scrub/etc just like you do in DV. Cineform won't let you do that -- it transcodes into a different codec, one that won't allow firewire preview.

Of course, for firewire preview to work, the camera would have to have a firewire port, plus allow input the same way a DV camera does. Seems a reasonable assumption, but until we know for sure this may be a moot point.

[Neil Rowe]

..yeah. cineforms big downfall is the lack of a low cost monitor solution. you can edit it normally, but you have to use an uncompressed HD-SDI output to preview to an external monitor ..a monitor or converter which accepts uncompresed HD-SDI. ideally well get naitive support. but if not. im hoping that cineform is somewhat of an affordable alternative option... really im not to happy with the idea that i might have to switch NLEs to accomodate the new cam, or lay down some more cash to continue using my current one. ..its my biggest apprehension right now. but i guess well have to wait and see what direction these companies move to see what were looking at .