View Full Version : Michael P please help--23.976 timeline
01-16-2005, 04:22 PM
My first post ever! Thank you to all on this board and especially those who created it!
A laundry list for Michael P., or any others out there:
First off, Michael, your mini-tutorial on Sorenson settings helped me get two projects done for the holidays. Do you have an official website? If you're ever in San Jose, I owe you beers.
That being said, let's start with Sorenson. The two projects completed were shot at 24pn, and when completed, I highlighted the proper sequences, selected 'send to', then the sub-menu 'encoding', then Sorenson. The .mov file was created, then I squeezed and made the mpv files. No problem.
My main question is: when you start a fresh project and choose 23.976 as the frame rate, digitize your footage (I'm using an older Panny pv-dv203 palmcorder--no problems) edit and so forth, why is it that you can't send to Sorenson through the encoding menu? It simply doesn't pop up like the 24pn/30i frame rate selected projects. I tried to go around it and selected 'send to DVD' through the quicktime reference, then dragged that into Sorenson, but then the burned DVD looked absolutely blurry (think of the 'agents' dodging bullets in The Matrix) This led me to believe that somehow the extra 'judder' frame wasn't being deleted, but that step would have to be done while digitizing into Avid Xpress Pro, correct?
(version 4.5 by the way)
And while I'm seeking answers:
How do we use/interpret the timeline in the 23.976 projects? Under the audio layers are tracks labeled 24, 25, 30...etc. I can highlight them but can't seem to see how any affect my editing.
Also: when digitizing in 23.976 I can see the footage fine in the client monitor (actually about a second ahead than what is playing) but when playing back from the timeline, it doesn't loop through the camcorder. No, I don't have mojo yet, but still, the 24pn projects play back through, although there is a delay. And speaking of monitors, why is it that the 23.976 project setting, 'video display' is different than the 30i projects, where you can tweak the settings of a client monitor?
Congratulations if you've made it this far. I know this is a lot, but what better place to ask?
01-16-2005, 05:17 PM
Hi Brad -
My site is www.24p.com
In order to capture to a 23.976p timeline, the footage needs to be shot as 24pA. Capturing 24pN will capture and it won't look wrong when editing on the computer monitor, but if you could see the NTSC out, it would be horrible looking as the wrong frame gets dropped and the wrong frames get combined to make the progressive frame. There will be a bad stutter.
If you are using the palmcoder as a deck only from 24pA footage then it should be fine. If on Windows, I would highly suggest you upgrade to Avid Xpress Pro HD ($50) where you can ouptut from a 23.976 timeline directly over FireWire with no Mojo. You can pass the signal back trhough your palmcorder for a client monitor. I use a DVD recorder with FireWire input for the transcoder and then component out to a monitor.
As far as the timecode tracks, they are used for creating programming when deliverying to film, PAL or NTSC. You can highlight the tracks you don't want to see and do a "control-shift-H" to hide them and then save the timeline view. As far as record side timecode management, use the timecode view above the monitors for tracking.
I don't know what it going on for the QT reference, but I would just export a QT reference by itself and drag and drop that into Sorenson. I never use the "Send to" myself.
As far as monitoring, you need a Mojo in 4.5 or upgrsade to 5.0 (Windows XP only at this time). I will be at Sundance at the end of this week on several panels and demoing some AVID stuff in the digital center. A new feature is the ability to capture NORMAL pulldown over FIreWire in a 23.96 project...
01-18-2005, 07:47 AM
Thanks for the reply, but as to the blurry footage I mentioned:
I shot in 24 advanced, captured over firewire with the project setting frame rate set at 23.976. It was my understanding that the "C" frame is automatically dropped during capture, no? I shouldn't have to apply any other editing tools/software (DV Film, etc.) to be working with a true 24p timeline, correct? And I don't need mojo to make a true progressive 24p DVD, right?
I'm just trying to understand why the DVD looks so blurry. I'll try to redo the whole process I guess.
01-18-2005, 05:32 PM
WIth what you mention, the result should be as you expect, the "C" Frame dropped (X in Avid terms) with A, B, C, and D remaining. I take it the footage doesn't look blurry to start with.
Make sure your timeline is set to green'green mode for quality (button next to red/yellow arrows in bottomn of timeline).
01-19-2005, 09:55 AM
I'll try it. Thanks Michael.
The raw footage isn't necessarily blurry, but from what I've read and seen, shooting in 24pa is supposed to have a more noticeable blur to certain pans and tilts, right? I guess I'm just trying to lock down a sure-fire way to see if I'm working with a true 24p timeline, and just as importantly, if that's what is going to DVD.
Any thoughts on what I mentioned in the first post concerning the loop through the deck? When digitizing 23.976, 24pa footage, I can see the footage in the client monitor, but when working with the bin and timeline, it won't play through. 29.97, 24pn projects play back with a delay, but play back.
01-19-2005, 11:10 AM
When you say 24pN, are you editing that in a 30i project?
As far as native 24, export a short piece as QT reference, and look at it in MoviePlayer with high quality set and step throug frame by frame. Don't mistake motion blur and pulldown for interlace frame problems. Interlace problems are very obvious - areas where there is motion will look like single line streaks (1/2 frame).
01-19-2005, 12:07 PM
Yes, 24pn is being edited in a 30i project. From everything I've read, I thought that's what I should be doing--24pn for playback on regular NTSC, 24pa for transfer to film or for truly progressive DVD's, correct?
I bought Xpress Pro because it touted itself as having support for the DVX, but when I got home with the turnkey system and started reading through the manual, it said that Xpress only supports advanced pulldown, which is why I did the 24pn in a 30i project.
I'm a little confused though. Under the settings of a 23.976 project, the 'Film and 24P' section actually lists a 2:3:2:3 option, but then the capture tool says in red, 'Only advanced pulldown can be used'.
I'm pretty sure that its not interlace artifacts I'm seeing, but when I get home from work tonight, I'll tweak with it.
How come the green dot/blue dot doesn't show up in 23.976 projects?
01-19-2005, 04:09 PM
Well you're always going to have an interlace frame when editing 24pN in a 30i project. That's the nature of the beast.
Currently native 23.976 capture and editing is done by either shooting Advanced Pulldown to DV25, or NORMAL pulldown via Analog and a Mojo. Thus the film setting for 2:3:2:3.
Version 5.0 (PC) allows real time output with effects and 2:3 pulldown without a Mojo.
I will be showing a new version at the Sundance FIlm Festival that allows native 23.976 capture over FIreWire which no other system does.
01-20-2005, 09:49 AM
I'm sorry I'm dragging this out, but maybe I should rephrase my questions, and simplify.
I thought that I could make a truly progressive, 24 frame DVD (which takes full advantage of progressive non-interlaced frames) using Avid Xpress Pro 4.5. How do you do that?
01-20-2005, 11:21 AM
Yes, this is possible. Witht eh DVX100 camera you need to shoot ADVANCED with the current version of the software. Xpress Pro will capture the original native 24 frames for editing. Then that is exported and encoded as 24p for DVD.
Here is my recipe:
01-20-2005, 11:37 AM
Thanks Michael. In my first post, I thanked you for this recipe.
Question: what if you select 'unspecified' under the format, then select 23.976. This may be at the heart of my problem: isn't a fully progressive DVD supposed to be non-interlaced? I read that 2:3 flags need to be inserted to be decoded by the DVD player. If I want a true 24p project, shouldn't we leave everything at that value?
01-20-2005, 12:31 PM
Ah.. in the encoder you are seeing unspecified? The way the flags get encoded is by selecting NTSC as the frame rate. By virtue of the source being 23.976, the 2:3 pulldown flags get inserted into the progressively encoded MPEG2 stream. The same goes for 16:9 anamorphic flag.
The one thing to be aware of, is the step I outline with the "tools" or filtetr settings. The reverse telecine, inverse telecine, should NOT be set to Auto. Please select NONE. If set to auto, it asumes that there is pulldown and will try anything but assume there is none which cuased weird frames to be created. This has been recitified in the next version of Sorenson.
But if you capture everything into a 23.976 timeline, a true progressive DVD can be created. For now it is via ADVANCED pulldown, but the next release of XPress Pro will allow for NORMAL pulldown to be captured as well for native 24 frame editing.