New info on the HDX!

[braw]

- 3 1" CCD's
- 3 Lenses
- Wi-fi streaming to hard disk
- 4:4:4 data in HD mode
- Jet Pack
- Body Massage Button
- Includes 3 Picture Deal
- $199.95 after rebate
- And yes, the girl comes with it

:grin:

[Shaw]

And yes, the girl comes with it

That right there seals the deal! I'm getting one!

[Zig_Zigman]

That's so lame!! Why can't it be 6:6:6:? I'm gonna hold out with my vx1000 and I'm not doing any movies till I get a camera that uprezzes to 35mm and stuffs it into a usb key drive. Damn Panasonic!

[Gary_McClurg]

Do you get your choice of brunette, blond or red head or...

I guess I shouldn't be picky.

[Justin_Kirch]

- Jet Pack


:grin:

THAT right there seals the deal. MUAHAHAH!

[BLUESPIDER]

Man, talk about a bunch of nerds! Okay okay, I want me one too! :evil:

[author]

- 3 1" CCD's
- 3 Lenses
- Wi-fi streaming to hard disk
- 4:4:4 data in HD mode
- Jet Pack
- Body Massage Button
- Includes 3 Picture Deal
- $199.95 after rebate
- And yes, the girl comes with it

:grin:

Too high... what's the street price?

[eclaire]

If it comes with a young Anthony Hopkins, I'll take 3. I'm afraid I'd use him more than the camera.:-)

[dvpixl]

what the freak? is this allowed?

[theos]

Ok how does panny out do that!

[braw]

what the freak? is this allowed?

Joking around, or offering indentured spokesmodel servants with a video camera?

[princigalli]

forget panasonic in prosumer HD. SONY was fast! Panasonic is too late. And to those people that tell me "yes but when they finally come out in 2 years, they will be better"... I can only say yes but by then I will have filmed a huge amount of HDV material, and Sony will probably be out with something better too!

[Neil Rowe]

:huh: ..uh ...thanks for clearing that up. we were all merely confused before. we now see the light. we will buy a sony immediately.

[PappasArts]

Can this thread be moved to a "joking " section. It's annoying for professionals that are here for business research and run into this kind of fun play in the mix. Whoever runs this board, should know that this is an unacceptable thread in this section. I suggest coming up with a Misc/Fun section that you can move threads like these.


Michael Pappas
PappasArts Entertainment
www.Pbase.com/arrfilms

[Neil Rowe]

..are you implying that those of use who are here alot and simply like to joke around with eachother arent professionals?

were a lighthearted and friendly bunch here going beyond simply techy talk. we even congratulate each other on new babies, and console eachother with lost jobs and divorce. id consider alot of these people friends and we pretty much joke around all the time ..we like it that way.

i know where your coming from. but you cant just come into someone elses house and tell them they need to run it differently. cmon now.. hangout, and join the family:beer:

[David Jimerson]

I think most of us wouldn’t be here if it were simply cold and technical all the time, or if the levity were confined to a single section.

And if those of us who do like to joke around, crack wise, and have fun weren’t here . . . there’d be no board.

So, stick around, learn, and have some fun . . . or don’t. But, in agreement with Neil (as I tend to be much of the time), the place is what it is and it’s inappropriate to demand that it change simply because it doesn’t fit what you think it should be.

[Jarred Land]

yes.. I know its offensive to some people but so am I... its what makes us special, we can talk like we are amongst close friends... and you are welcome to get comfortable too :)

[Gary_McClurg]

I think from the big grin shown at the beginning and then as you keep reading down the list you know its meant to be funny.

To me it's no big deal. So I wasted a few seconds.

But bringing a laugh to something unexpected is just what we need to put us in a good mood sometimes.

At least it made me laugh that day.

I

[Evolve]

can't we just outlaw fun please. for christs sakes, this is serious.

[Evolve]

scratch that. lets outlaw everything.

[braw]

It was genuinely meant to be an unexpected break in all the serious and often intense speculation about the new camera that hasn't been announced.

Having come across threads where people are actually getting angry arguing pros and cons of something that doesn't yet exist is sometimes harder to read than a 5 second obvious joke.

[Zig_Zigman]

You know, it's really annoying for business professionals like me to be in here reading threads about how other business professionals are wasting time...errrrrrrrrrrr "doing research" in here.

Right.

Hey we're all just killing time till another factual tidbit gets tossed our way, then we can leap upon it and mangle it with cyber fangs...

[Gary_McClurg]

It was genuinely meant to be an unexpected break in all the serious and often intense speculation about the new camera that hasn't been announced.

Having come across threads where people are actually getting angry arguing pros and cons of something that doesn't yet exist is sometimes harder to read than a 5 second obvious joke.

Amen

[Terry_Lasater]

Dammit, people!!! I'm tryin' to do some bidness research in herrrrre! :)

[abeljerrod]

You know I heard that you can get this camera on the Grey Market already for only $49.95....With a 10 year/ 100k hour (whichever comes first) warranty.....

[BLUESPIDER]

Can this thread be moved to a "joking " section. It's annoying for professionals that are here for business research and run into this kind of fun play in the mix. Whoever runs this board, should know that this is an unacceptable thread in this section. I suggest coming up with a Misc/Fun section that you can move threads like these.



OMG! No you didn't! Look, I totally understand how you feel but I think this is what makes DVXuser special. I know for a fact many of the big time directors we know of joke around all the time and they make millions. There is such thing as having fun and learning at the same time. You know, theres always dvinfo.net. :)

[Isaac_Brody]

What's special is Terry's avatar. Everytime I see that cowbell I have to smile. It's like a part of the DVXuser experience. I come here to laugh and learn.

[PappasArts]

I should of stayed silent. That was a case of 24hrs+ of 3D CGI buggy crap and a 2000 page manual from hell, and then the worst of them all, a bad cup of coffee.

So I took a break and came here to read what was new on the Pana/HD with my bad cup of coffee. The thread joke felt like an open wound being picked and prodded at with a mangled fork. Anyway today, I have my sense of humor back. This morning is much better, still have the CGI issue's , but I have a very good cup of coffee, so things are good.

Michael Pappas




OMG! No you didn't! Look, I totally understand how you feel but I think this is what makes DVXuser special. I know for a fact many of the big time directors we know of joke around all the time and they make millions. There is such thing as having fun and learning at the same time. You know, theres always dvinfo.net. :)

[boo]

mike, while you're enjoying your cup 'o joe, maybe you can come up w/ a concept to attach interchangeable lens on the dvx...maybe call it the pappas system..;)

[Gary_McClurg]

Boo, you bring up an interesting point.

A friend once looking at Juan's mod site, said "I wonder if some guy could attempt something like that but replace the DVX lens with an interchangeable mount."

Gee, now I wish I would have paid more attention to those lectures in film or video classes on technical issues instead of producing, but then producing's what I ended up doing.

[MatthewRyanMCK]

Hey everybody, this is something that might interest you all. I don't know if any of you have already seen this but here are a couple sites to check out regarding panasonic's HD camcorder.

http://www2.ezbbs.net/39/sumi653/img/1110502857_1.gif

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www2.ezbbs.net/39/sumi653/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddvx200%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa%3DG

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi,

Both of those pictures are old and neither look like the new camcorder.

You will see what I mean soon,

Jan

[Policar]

It looks a lot like the DVX, just bigger.

[Digigenic]

...You will see what I mean soon...
Jan
:happy:
I love it when you talk like that

[MatthewRyanMCK]

Ya, I wasn't sure how recent or accurate those were, but I can't wait to see the real thing!

[Barry_Green]

It looks a lot like the DVX, just bigger.
Has that been confirmed? That would be big news, I don't think Jan or anyone at Panasonic has commented on the form factor yet.

[berlinfool]

What about a screenplay - so we have something to shoot!

[melyncolly]

haha Mathew, thats an HD cam panasonic released like 2 years ago, and your second link is just to a standard DVX100. sorry to state the obvious if you were joking around.

[Dabong]

I guess we are all just filled with anticipation and excitement... like kids waiting to open presents.

[Zim]

Late fall 2005 for the new camera, no tape, under $10,000. I hope under $5,000. Maybe some type of tape transport I've heard something on that. If the cards are a good price who really cares about tape. If you really want something on tape just export to tape. But no more tape doors that won't open, cleaning tape heads, etc.

I was told by someone at Panasonic that this camera will appeal to a lot of different people. I hope that could mean the price will be along the lines of the Z1. I understand the P2 cards will be included in the price. Pretty much everything Jan has been saying. Even though this guy clams up when ask certain things, I get the feeling this will be one awesome camera with the look of the DVX100, or some form of that anyway.

[bilgami]

:grin:

[b]Where are the pics of the new pana cam jvc has pics of their new cam. if the cam is set to debut next month at nab anyway why not show some pics of the cam already.
bilgami@hotmail.com


http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)

[Zig_Zigman]

Save up Zim, it won't be cheap. Plus you'll have to buy microphones, filters etc. I imagine only one card will be included.

[reservoir]

:grin:

[b]Where are the pics of the new pana cam jvc has pics of their new cam. if the cam is set to debut next month at nab anyway why not show some pics of the cam already.
bilgami@hotmail.com


http://www.bilgamivideo.com (http://www.bilgamivideo.com/)


I have to agree. With JVC being moderately open about it and Panasonic not giving away one *stitch* of information other than the DVCPRO & P2 stuff....it better be one damn nice camera or all the hype will be for nothing. Even if they give us no other info, they could at least give us a small picture that wouldn't give away too many other details about the cam's functions and stuff.

It's almost like they are withholding info to build their own hype. I just hope it doesn't end up biting them in the butt and their wallet if the cam is a letdown. I don't think it will be. But throw us another bone already Panny!! Were dying here!! ~reservoir~

[braw]

But throw us another bone already Panny!! Were dying here!! ~reservoir~

It is odd. I completely understand the need for companies to protect future technology, but at this point, we all know there's a camera coming, and have a few details. The camera is already built. The fact that nothing more has "leaked" equates to a concerted effort on their part to prevent such things.

I also appreciate hype and buildup as a marketing tool, but too much and the camera better be incredible or all that hype may cause a backlash of created cynics ragging on every compromise they find. I guess that would happen no matter what. I have seen people ragging on the Varicam.

[Isaac_Brody]

It's bad luck for the groom to see the bride before the wedding ceremony.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Dog gone it Isaac, I was really hoping that you looked like Brad.

Soon guys, something next week.

Best,

Jan

[Isaac_Brody]

:grin:

[MikeFawcett]

I've seen behind the curtain. It will be worth the wait. You guys are as bad as my kids the week before Christmas.

[braw]

It's bad luck for the groom to see the bride before the wedding ceremony.

Very true. However there's a symbolic meaning to a white dress as well that seems to have lost all credibility. :grin:

[braw]

I've seen behind the curtain. It will be worth the wait. You guys are as bad as my kids the week before Christmas.

I have never met you or your kids, but I would expect we're worse. :happy:

[reservoir]

Soon guys, something next week.

What, What, What? Are we actually going to be receiving another nugget of precious info about the HDX next week? ~reservoir~

[10s]

This is starting to remind me of the movie BIG FISH, where the protagonist works in the circus for weeks just to hear a tiny new detail every so often about the girl he has a crush on. "She likes the color blue"....... another month passes,......... "she likes daises",.......... another month passes.... "she's fond of butterflies"....etc.

Are we waiting in line to date the pretty new girl?

[Terry_Lasater]

I have never met you or your kids, but I would expect we're worse. :happy:

Oh, trust me... we're much worse. :happy:

[terry_g_johnson]

Questions about DVCPRO HD
DVCPROHD bit rate is 100mbs (for 60p ?)
Does this mean that DVCPROHD bit rate is 50mbs (for 30p ?)

[Shaw]

yup :)

[jnolla]

Questions about DVCPRO HD
DVCPROHD bit rate is 100mbs (for 60p ?)
Does this mean that DVCPROHD bit rate is 50mbs (for 30p ?)

I don't think DVCPROHD does 1080p, least 1080/60p.

[terry_g_johnson]

What are the advantages of using 60p (as opposed to 30p) which make it worth using twice as much memory and half the storage time on a P2 card?

[Shaw]

Quite right jnolla. It does 720p60 or 1080i I believe.

60p is great for display on a progressive monitor of some sort - progressive scan tv, computer, film etc.

It's large benefit is high resolution and lots of motion samples per second. More samples = smoother motion. Good for sports etc. This can either be used stand alone for high res video or used for high res slow motion (which cannot be achieved with interlaced).

[terry_g_johnson]

Does DVCPROHD support 720p30 and if so is the bit rate 50mbs.

[Barry_Green]

The simple answer to your question is "yes". Of course, there's not really a simple answer, because until the HD cam with P2 arrives, DVCPRO-HD has only ever been able to be recorded on tape, and on tape it's always 100 megabits. DVCPRO-HD provides for variable frame rate recording, so you can shoot 60p, or 30p, or 24p, or 33p, or 17p, or whatever rate you want (provided, of course, that the camera allows it; right now the only 720p DVCPRO-HD camera is the VariCam, which does provide for fully variable frame rates).

On tape, the camera flags "real" frames, vs. "duplicate" frames that it needs to pad the data rate to be compatible with tape. Because the tape drive must always record 100 megabits and 60 frames, and because a 720/30p frame stream only has 30 frames (and would need only 50 megabits to encode it), the tape drive would duplicate frames to fill out and pad it up to 60. Those frames then get removed when editing, resulting in a pure, raw 30p stream. Same thing happens at 24p, or 4p, or whatever frame rate you choose.

So, with P2, the speculation is that it'll only record the actual, necessary frames. A 720/30p stream would then occupy 50 megabits per second on the card. A 720/24p stream would occupy 40 megabits per second on the card.

DVCPRO-HD also supports 1080i, but 1080i is always a 60-field data stream, so it's always 60 fields and 100 megabits, whether on tape or on P2.

As for why one would want to use 60p instead of 30p, it's all about the look. 24P looks like film, 30p looks like a hybrid film/video look, and 60p has the full "video" look, ideal for sports or reality TV.

[terry_g_johnson]

Great information Barry.

The reason why I ask is:

100mbs is o.75GBS or about 5.33 min of recording on a 4GB P2 card
5ombs is 0.37GBS or about 10.6 min of recording on a 4GB P2 card

The latter is much more attractive for my applicaton and with a 8GB P2 card if you could get 20 minutes of DVCPROHD 720p30 it would be wonderful :happy:

[Barry_Green]

Yes, and that's per card -- if the camera features multiple card slots (a feature I'd bet on, because the SPX does and it allows recording to wrap from one card to the other) then you'll have at least 40 minutes online at once... and the cards are hot-swappable, so if you had three cards, you could easily get an hour of uninterrupted recording... and if you offload the not-in-use card to a laptop or portable hard disk, you could theoretically record *forever*, continuously, with just three cards...

[bgundu]

The future of these new cameras are relying on P2 technology. If you look at the roadmap of the Sd card on Panasonics website, it clearly indicates an aggressive growth for the capacity. I know people have there hangups about not having tape as archival, but I believe they may be thinking this because of the limited options we have today for archiving. I will gladly welcome Blue-Laser disks with 50GB capacity to archive projects and media. People are also afraid about costs of these P2 cards. These prices are going to being coming down exponentially. Besides, I think there will be a good rental market for them in the meantime. Check out this chart from Panasonics website:

https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/img03.jpg


I suspect we'll see some new announcements of 8GB cards at NAB. Looks like a promising year for Panasonic.

[10s]

How dare you threaten me with this new fandangle techno mumbo jumbo, I'll keep using my Commodore 64 & Sear VHS camera.

yeah, it's amazing how difficult it can be to switch technologies. I remember giving up my lance & sword and using black powder back around 1620, it was tough. I don't know if i have anymore in me to give...when's it gonna quit?

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi everyone,

Must have been a slow Friday night. I get up and find you guys were chatting all night. Bgundu is right on the fact that the 8GB card will be out this year and memory prices do keep falling the 4GB card is now less that the 2GB card was at introduction.

In response to the question or concern about archive, there really are many solutions for it, we just need to start thinking differently. The fact is that tape is cheap and we all know what to do with it, shelve it and forget it and then search like mad to find it when we need it, You know that clip is on one of these reels. (Note: I know this is not true of everyone, I really do know about three people that can find a clip in as long as it takes to look it up on their computer, find the tape put it in the machine and load it up)

Once we cross over to the video as data, there are many more tools to our advantage. The first of these is metadata. This is data about the data. The P2 system generates a boatload of data about the data and all of that can come back to aid in your archiving and retrieval systems. Your archive becomes a Smart Archive, only the valuable clips are saved. You don't have to save everything.

So what do you save it on? See these links for starters.

http://www.inphase-technologies.com/products/tapestrydrive/index.html

http://www.quantum.com/AM/products/default.htm

http://www.exabyte.com/products/index.cfm

Hope this helps,

Jan

[shAi]

i personally save for those little hard disks... it's going to look like "ok it's a wrap. here's one 200GB hard disk for today's shoot.. and here's a 60GB iPod with the materials from yesterday.. but please give it to me back soon cos there are still some mp3's of mine..."
not that i have iPod. .

[jnolla]

Cost can increase substantially when using Hard Drives; But when Blue-Ray, or the next generation of DVDs come out, they will make an ideal backup solution. Prices on these should become pretty cheap once they become a standard.

Just Drag and drop the raw file, and burn.

[Terry_Lasater]

I get up and find you guys were chatting all night.

Nothing new about that. That happens every night around here. :)

This ain't no 2-Pop ghost town.

[Flintstone]

This ain't no 2-Pop ghost town.
Ouch! :lipsrseal

[Jarred Land]

ha ha I wont tell Noah.

[terry_g_johnson]

Yes, and that's per card -- if the camera features multiple card slots (a feature I'd bet on, because the SPX does and it allows recording to wrap from one card to the other) then you'll have at least 40 minutes online at once... and the cards are hot-swappable, so if you had three cards, you could easily get an hour of uninterrupted recording... and if you offload the not-in-use card to a laptop or portable hard disk, you could theoretically record *forever*, continuously, with just three cards...
Barry did you notice that Jan did not refute any of our speculation. She doth protest not at all...Could this be as good as a wink and a nod? :beer:

[Barry_Green]

No, definitely not (unfortunately). Jan's said she's in "lockdown", so she's not allowed to divulge any type of information, or confirm, or deny. If she went around refuting speculation, then we'd all pounce when she *didn't* refute something, which would mean we could eventually paint her into a corner and she's too smart for that. So she lets us run wild... but actually I think she promised more info next week!

[terry_g_johnson]

My hunch is that we will not be disapointed...

Now if the camera is no heavier than 5lbs and has at least a 12X zoom (16x in the best of all possible worlds) and has a wideangle adaptor available and the price of all this plus 3X 8GB P2 cards is < $18K I for one will wait up to 9 months for it.

[Gary_McClurg]

Come one Barry spill the goods. We know your testing the camera so you can write the next book.

Just kidding.

But if you are make sure your updated book and dvd comes with the camera.

[boo]

The Varicam will always be the coolest HD camera, on a price performance basis. Are there cameras that do more, yes; do they cost more, yes. Point here is, will the little camera be used on a VariCam shoot, yes. I can see this being the camera in the underwater housing, it costs less to insure. Or the crash cam, or the crane cam.

And then for the indy filmmaker that cannot afford the VariCam, it will be the main camera. We have worked very hard to put in as many features as is possible. I think many will agree. It is absolutely killling me that I can't say more, but soon, very soon.

Best,

Jan

i dunno...all this talk about the jvc prohd...but based on this quote from jan at the other site, and if i was a betting man(it's in vegas after all =P) i'm confident that the hdx will be one kick ass camera and will not disappoint! i'm ready to move into p2 technology... jan, i look forward to more leaks this coming week!

[Barry_Green]

Come one Barry spill the goods. We know your testing the camera so you can write the next book.
Well, if I was testing the camera, "spilling the goods" would be a great way to get it yanked out of my hands, so I couldn't spill the goods. And if I'm not testing the camera, I can't spill the goods 'cause I don't know 'em. So either way, the goods will remain un-spilled! :)


But if you are make sure your updated book and dvd comes with the camera.
I definitely want to do a new version for the new camera. I'll make sure it's available to DVXUser members and P2 camera buyers, of course, but whether it comes bundled with the camera is not something I am in control of -- I'd love to see it happen! I appreciate the request, and I'm hoping that's something that we'll see happen! ;)

[Jarred Land]

we know your qualified and the book will be great... and the included HD-DVD will be impressive.

[BLUESPIDER]

They will have this for sale during NAB right? Barry, are you ever going to do a feature someday? If you're ever going to look for a villian, you can count on me. :evil:

[BLUESPIDER]

People are also afraid about costs of these P2 cards. These prices are going to being coming down exponentially.

Prices on the P2 will eventually come down. I mean do you guys rememberd when the CDRs first came out. I remeber buying 1 CDR for like 18 bucks. That was 2x speed too! Now you can get a 100CDR 48x spindle for like $20 dollars. Well, it did take like 7 years or so for the price to really drop. :undecided

[Rich Lee]

is it out yet?! jeeezuz...i hate waiting....

[MikeFawcett]

Prices on the P2 will eventually come down. I mean do you guys rememberd when the CDRs first came out. I remeber buying 1 CDR for like 18 bucks. That was 2x speed too! Now you can get a 100CDR 48x spindle for like $20 dollars. Well, it did take like 7 years or so for the price to really drop. :undecided
Also don't forget the P2 cards can be rewritten 100,000 times plus. Your media cost per minute just dropped way down.

[reservoir]

Prices on the P2 will eventually come down. I mean do you guys rememberd when the CDRs first came out. I remeber buying 1 CDR for like 18 bucks. That was 2x speed too! Now you can get a 100CDR 48x spindle for like $20 dollars. Well, it did take like 7 years or so for the price to really drop.

And the price of DVD-R's dropped even faster. Sure they were expensive at first, but within 2 years they have dropped considerably. You can get a 50pack of good TDK discs for 20 dollars.

Every generation of *new* media seems to be not only better, but drop in price quicker than previous generations. I hope the same thing will go for Blu-ray. It's hard to imagine that the burners and consoles will be introduced at roughly the same time. WOW!! CD took almost 20 years. DVD took about 6 or 7. Blu-ray will take 0? Now if we could just get the dual layer thing off the ground. It seems to have stalled out. The media is expensive and hard to find. I hope it drops soon. This would hold *me* over until blu-ray burners are under 1000. ~reservoir~

[MikeFawcett]

And the price of DVD-R's dropped even faster. Sure they were expensive at first, but within 2 years they have dropped considerably. You can get a 50pack of good TDK discs for 20 dollars.

Every generation of *new* media seems to be not only better, but drop in price quicker than previous generations. I hope the same thing will go for Blu-ray. It's hard to imagine that the burners and consoles will be introduced at roughly the same time. WOW!! CD took almost 20 years. DVD took about 6 or 7. Blu-ray will take 0? Now if we could just get the dual layer thing off the ground. It seems to have stalled out. The media is expensive and hard to find. I hope it drops soon. This would hold *me* over until blu-ray burners are under 1000. ~reservoir~
I just bought a Pro High speed 512 Mb card(20 mbs) for less than I paid for a 64Mb(2mb)-2 years ago. There is a lot of technology packed into the P2 card- for one it's throughput is 640mbs. That's why its not just 4 -1gb cards in a PCMCIA frame. In camera DVD recording can't even come close. That's why the P2 logic is the way it is. P2 for aquisition, DVD , hard drive or tape for archiving.

[Terry_Lasater]

Damn! I'm salivating. :)

[mr._guiyotinne]

But Mike, like you said you bought a 64 Mb card two years ago and now everything has gone more thant double. It´s difficult to imagine who wants to invest in a 8 GB (even if they go 1000 $) P2 that soon will be passed by double or triple capacity cards.

It´s the future, and i must kick myself to remember that the camera will go out by end last term and there will be bigger P2! oh, well. P2 is next years year...

[MikeFawcett]

But Mike, like you said you bought a 64 Mb card two years ago and now everything has gone more thant double. It´s difficult to imagine who wants to invest in a 8 GB (even if they go 1000 $) P2 that soon will be passed by double or triple capacity cards.

It´s the future, and i must kick myself to remember that the camera will go out by end last term and there will be bigger P2! oh, well. P2 is next years year...
At some point you will have to jump in. I now have a 512 Mb card for my still camera. That's 250+ pictures. I doubt I will need any more than that for quite some time.
Using the current P2 card at DV or DVCPro25 which is 25mbs you can record for 18 minutes. if the cards go to 8 Gb you will get 36 minutes. Does anyone shoot a scene straight through for 36 minutes? You have to remember the cards are temporary storage. Now let's do the math--if you use a mini-dv tape 10 times that's 10,000 passes on a P2 card again divided by 2 to equal a 66 minute tape=5,000 X $4.00 to $6.00 per tape= $20-$30,000 in tape and that doesn't even include the maintenance required on your camera drive to run 5,000 tapes. Costs do go down. The issue is you have to pay upfront -

[Boomerang]

but the issue is paying upfront for a technology or card that can be out dated within a year- so really looking long term to what the card gives you over the tape is an unfair comparison. I think wear and tear is a better look at how P2 is better for camera life span, not how much tape money you can save.

[Barry_Green]

Like I said on another thread, people also have to learn to think differently about this whole P2 business. P2 cards aren't replacements for tapes. You don't go get a new P2 card for each new project! Instead P2 cards are more analogous to film magazines. If you were shooting a project on film and were going to use 100 rolls of film, you wouldn't go out and buy 100 magazines for your camera. You'd have maybe three magazines, and you'd use them in rotation -- one loaded with film and on the camera, shooting... one loaded with fresh blank film, ready to go... and one in the changing tent, where the "shot" film is un-loaded, and fresh blank film is loaded into it.

I see that being the workflow with P2 cards. People will buy two or three cards EVER. That's it. No big stack of 'em, you'll have maybe two, maybe three, and that's all you'll ever use. When they're full, dump 'em off to hard disk (like unloading the shot film from the magazine) and erase 'em (like loading the film magazine with new fresh film). That's how P2 workflow will work, I think (of course, field usage will tell us more, but that's how I see it working).

The only time you'd buy another card would be if you encounter a situation where you need more storage space, and a new capacity has been released (i.e., you've got three 8gb cards, and they just came out with a new 32gb card or something). In that case you'd probably put one of your 8gb cards up on ebay, and use the sale proceeds to help pay part of the 32gb card's price.

As far as 36 minutes -- remember BetaSP cameras only get 30 minutes per tape! We've been kind of spoiled by 60-minute record times in DV, but the broadcast/ENG/EFP world has lived with 30-minute loads for a long time.


Barry, are you ever going to do a feature someday? If you're ever going to look for a villian, you can count on me.
Producing one right now, and a second one this fall (if I can finish securing the rights from the novel's author's estate). As for directing one, well, the screenplays aren't done yet, so it's coming, but I can afford to wait for it to be "right"...

[braw]

The issue is you have to pay upfront -

Some people, especially myself aren't huge fans of paying up front. The problem is like buying a Varicam and paying for a boatload of tapes up front that may never be used. If P2 catches on we're all good if the format jumps to future cameras. It's gets increasingly hard to jump on technology that comes with a post dated certificate of obsoletion (storage capacity).

So even though it may equate on paper to a million tapes, it reality doesn't play out like that. I think the technology is a great idea, but Panasonic is asking for a lot of faith, and potentially a lot of money from the consumers.

Just random thoughts based on so very little info. Just looking for a "there, there" tap on the back from you or Jan. :evil:

[MikeFawcett]

but the issue is paying upfront for a technology or card that can be out dated within a year- so really looking long term to what the card gives you over the tape is an unfair comparison. I think wear and tear is a better look at how P2 is better for camera life span, not how much tape money you can save.
Barry has it right. I put in the comparison to DV tape only to justify cost. Don't think of the P2 card as anything more than temp storage. The same as you wouldn't store your still pictures from your digital camera on the SD or compact flash cards. The size will increase but the cards don't become obsolete.

[braw]

The size will increase but the cards don't become obsolete.

This is true. But starting the game out with a very small record time pretty much guarantees we will have to or desperately want to get a slightly bigger card when the technology catches up. I am assuming the camera will come with a bundled card, and even if it doesn't, we have to buy one. The only real issue I would have would be initial record time. 20-30 minutes of footage I could learn to deal with, but 8-10 minutes at most? If the camera comes with a 8GB or at least the cost of cards are extremely reasonable than I have absolutely no reservations. For me, it's the "up front" and "hidden" cost of the storage medium if it comes with a smaller card (digital camera trick) or the cards are thousands to buy.

I'll still probably buy the darn thing, I just want to voice concerns.

[Neil Rowe]

..well, we also have to remember the very real and likely possibility of the HDX being able to record to external firewire drives as well. if that is implemented. itll surely carry us over until a p2 workflow fits nicely into our wallets and production scheme.

[Phooey]

First time responder, but I've been following this post for a while. Obviously, I'm excited about this camera. Tape speed aside, how much data can you store on a DV Tape? The reason, I ask is would there be a way to record to P2 (fast data storage) and then transfer to the DV tape, empty the P2 card. Of course, this transfer would take a while, but if you don't have a laptop with you in the field, tapes are cheaper than P2 cards for now. Jan was saying that the P2 cards can store a lot of data for keeping track of footage. If this were possible, you could reverse the process to get all the info on to your computer. Is this totally unrealistic? I know it'd be a long work around, but it was a thought.

Phooey

[scharky]

I saw a program in the past that would allow you to use DV tapes to back up standard data. So yes you could do it, but I read that it was very slow, and each tape will hold about 10 Gigs.

[Barry_Green]

20-30 minutes of footage I could learn to deal with, but 8-10 minutes at most?
Assuming an 8gb card, recognize that you could store 20 minutes of high-def 720/24p footage on just that one card already. You could store 16 minutes of DVCPRO50, and 32 minutes of DV/DVCPRO25. And that's just with one 8gb card.

Granted, if the camera were able to shoot at the full 100 mbps data rate (meaning, 720/60p or 1080/60i), then you'd only be able to store around 8 minutes on that card... but for 720/24p, you're already going to be able to store 20 minutes on it.

And, also keep in mind that your ACTUAL storage time might be a lot higher than 20 minutes of tape, given that you can easily manage the clips while you're shooting, and delete any garbage clips instantly. On tape I usually find that an hour-long tape yields somewhere between 5 and 20 minutes of usable footage (for a dramatic/narrative/commercial type production). The rest of it is takes I'll never use, etc. With the P2 card you can instantly delete that stuff and only keep the good stuff. So your actual, in-the-field usage may, under certain circumstances, be a lot more generous than it sounds currently.

[Prairieboy]

The whole concept of this camera excites me very much. But, yes always a but, about half of my shooting involves handing over a tape, tapes, to a client at the end of the day. As technology stands right now how do I handle that with the P2 cards. Shooting two hours of footage in a day is rather common, so even if I can figure out a workflow that makes that possible with three or four cards,(it is not always possible to just stop shooting for a minute while I plug this card into my laptop). So even if I can make that work, at the moment my options are handing over an expensive hard drive, or spending an hour or two burning to DVDs(that thought after 12-14 hours does not appeal to me)
Everything I have read about this camera excites me. I really want to get it it, but unless much bigger P2 cards magically arrive, or there is a tape function, or blue laser comes quicker than we think, it just does not seem like this camera will be practical in the next year or so.
Please somebody change my opinion.

[Barry_Green]

I saw a program in the past that would allow you to use DV tapes to back up standard data. So yes you could do it, but I read that it was very slow, and each tape will hold about 10 Gigs.

As raw data, yes it's around 11-12 gb. And yes, it would be very slow -- it would take almost an hour to back up an 8gb P2 card to DV tape (used as a data drive) vs. about 5 minutes to dump it to hard disk. Also, DV tape is not designed to be used as data tape -- data tape has serious redundancy checking built into it, error correction, etc. DV error correction is designed to operate within frames of DV compression, so it wouldn't return the same type of results. I don't want to speculate on what type of errors/disasters could happen if you tried to store computer data on a DV tape and then got hit with an error.

Instead of backing up to DV tape, I'd recommend DVD-R instead -- it'll be faster and cheaper. MQ tapes are $5.65 each, two high-quality DVD-Rs would cost maybe $1.60, and with new high-speed 16x DVD recorders, it should be done in a lot less time. Plus with new dual-layer burners out, you could back up an entire 8gb card onto one dual-layer DVD-R, and those cost about $4-$5 right now, and should be probably half that this fall, and maybe $1 a year from now. That'd be a lot cheaper (and probably faster) than trying to work a way to get miniDV tape to do a job it wasn't intended to do.

[braw]

With the P2 card you can instantly delete that stuff and only keep the good stuff. So your actual, in-the-field usage may, under certain circumstances, be a lot more generous than it sounds currently.

I agree most stuff on tape is garbage. That's mostly because we have gotten used to having so much freedom to shoot anything. It really wouldn't be that hard to adjust and make each shot count more, but it really seems extremely low. I know in the future when cards get much bigger this is going to be the best thing out there for folks like me.

The hot swapping gets tough to sell since removing the card while shooting will jar the camera slightly, unless the cards come greased up, the you have to worry about the card sliding out when you turn. It’s not a huge obstacle, and this concern can be negated when significantly higher memory cards come out. I'm just leery of the fact that to get in on the ground floor, we'll probably have to spend much cash on a card, that will have a "replacement" in a year. It's almost hard to not just wait a year or so to get it.

Pay $1000 for a 8GB now, and you can get a 16GB for the same price next year. All I'm saying is that the record time is in a range at this point (speculatively), that promising double record times at the same or lower prices down the road is going to make a few people wait or look elsewhere.

I don't doubt the camera will rock, or that Panasonic hasn't thought this through, I'm just trying to figure it out for myself. :beer:

[Barry_Green]

about half of my shooting involves handing over a tape, tapes, to a client at the end of the day.
I know where you're coming from, and if there's a fault in the P2 workflow, this seems like where you might find it.

However, I do a lot of this type of shooting as well, and I think the P2 camera can still be made to work brilliantly.

First, let's keep in mind that we're talking about shooting "real" HD here, DVCPRO-HD. For DVCPRO-HD tapes, they're $50 for an hour, and HDCAM tapes are around $80 per hour. So if you were handing over three hour-long tapes at the end of a shoot, that's $150 to $240 worth of tape.

Or, you could store three hours of 720/24p footage on a $100 80-gb external hard disk. Even factoring in an external firewire/USB2 hard disk, you're talking about a cost significantly lower than tape.

Now, how would the producer feel about that? At the end of the shoot, instead of handing him three hours of footage that he'll then have to sort through and digitize (assuming, of course, that he has a camera or deck that's compatible with what you shot; otherwise he'll have to go rent one), you're instead giving him pre-digitized, instant-access, dropout-proof high-definition footage.

For lower cost than on tape.

Even if you were shooting 100 megabits (meaning, 720/60p or 1080/60i), three hours of that is still just $180, on the low side of what HD tape would cost you. Yet the producer will likely be absolutely thrilled that you've already done all the digitizing work for him!

And that's for high-def. Obviously if you're talking about shooting standard-def the cost for the drives will be lower still.

And, every month that goes by, hard disk storage becomes cheaper and cheaper. By this fall, I wouldn't be surprised if 300gb external hard disks were $150 or less.

I am the first to admit that this P2 workflow may not be ideal for every situation; however, I think that what people are perceiving as limitations right now are not actually limitations, they're just not looking at it in the right context. If people want "the goods" (i.e., high-def footage), they'll pay for the tape (at $60-$80 per hour) or the hard disk (at $50/hour). But I'm pretty sure they'll be much happier to receive the hard disk instead of tapes!

[Barry_Green]

Pay $1000 for a 8GB now, and you can get a 16GB for the same price next year.
Well, yes; same with hard disks today, same with televisions and cameras and everything.

But the point is, you'd only buy it if you needed it, right? And if you need it, you get it, you put it to work, and that card will pay for itself in about 1 days' shoot.

These little cameras can pay for themselves so quickly that the idea of waiting a year seems a little silly to me. I know Shannon has made the same point regarding the Z1, and other than the Z1 being not the right tool for a film/commercial type job, I pretty much agree with him: if you have a need now, and can book work now, get it now.

Right now I'm having no trouble booking shooting gigs with the DVX for $850/day. If I had the HD camera, I could easily charge maybe $1000/day, maybe more. So use the camera to get you a job you wouldn't have otherwise gotten, and the card is free. Then get another shooting job. And another. And when the 16gb card comes out, buy one of those too. So you could wait, and get the card for half. Or you could get it now, put it to work, make forty or fifty thousand dollars (or more) with it now (well, the camera plus your labor, of course) and have no qualms about picking up the new cards when they're available.

If you don't have any business need for the camera, it'd be silly to spend $6000 to $10,000 on it now, regardless of what cards cost. But if you do have a business need for it, the cost of the card stopping you from buying (and the idea of turning down business because you're waiting for a card price to drop) doesn't add up.

I wouldn't advise anyone to make an investment like this and then go fishing for work, I think that's a recipe for bankruptcy. But if you've already got work, and can see how this camera could bring you more, I don't really see any downside.

[MikeFawcett]

But I'm pretty sure they'll be much happier to receive the hard disk instead of tapes![/QUOTE]
One thing to remember is that once it is on the P2 card it becomes data. Data can be stored on anything-Hard drive, DVD, CDR, Digital tape.

[Jarred Land]

The whole hard drive as a deliverable is a much better solution, In fact I started doing it about a year ago with SD material. There is a small Apple-PC compatibility NTFS problem that usually happens until you understand it but after that it works pretty good. With our editors we actually have SATA drive caddies that slide in to the systems and are just a little larger than 3.5" drivces and just as fast.. no cables or anything to lug around. For random post production clients/associates we use micro sized laptop External drives that are powered by the USB port... sure they are slow but you can get them upto 100gb and as a data only deliverable they work well.

As barry said when HD tape is so expensive. Even for shooting.. we shot a HD feature in November on the sony 900s that we ended up buying 35 tapes for.. this cost us just under $3200.. about the price of a DVX. Sure its great to have backups of these tapes on the shelf.. but they take a crapload of space, and will most likely never be touched again, I would much rather have 2 or 3 small external drives sitting there. I havn't used DVD-R's much as a backup tool.. just because I dont trust them yet, but I am sure my opiion on that will change in the future.

Im excited to see a crop of new P2 decks come out, perhaps with dedicated hd storage themselves. Damn tapes. Good riddance.

[MikeFawcett]

As this stuff gets more mature you will see a whole market appear with accessories. Look at all of the available accessories for the DVX100. I sold the first P2 camera and deck to a TV station in Canada, they took delivery last fall and are still working on streamlining the workflow. Since then Avid, Apple,Pinnacle, Thomson and others have jumped on board the P2 wagon. One of the positive things to come out of this is the effect it will have on future technology. We won't have to worry so much about tape formats, it will come down to compression codecs, frame rates, image quality, etc etc.

[Jarred Land]

yes.. its pretty amazing how P2 has taken off.. and Panasonic has done a pretty good job getting it out there. . Last year at NAB I was given this little P2 keychain and stood in the booth looking up sratching my head at the insane P2 Marketing extravaganza and wondering why they where making such a big deal about it.. now I know :)

nab2004
http://www.dvxuser.com/event/nab2005.jpg

[braw]

I'm not an event videographer, so my investment will be purely for movies. Of course everyone wants liquid gold for the price of PBR, but that'a a consumer for ya.

I am glad Panasonic is taking this plunge, it was totally unexpected and innevitable. I have no doubts the camera will rock.

[Jarred Land]

yes. we are gonna be one step closer to perfection. Im sure everyone agrees in 10 years tape will be pretty much be gone, and 35mm film will follow some time after that.

[bgundu]

yes. we are gonna be one step closer to perfection.

Wait a minute.... "perfection" is a strong word. In a perfect world, there would be a "Press here for kick ass movie" button.

[NoahK]

At the very least a de-suck filter or script sharpening option would be excellent.

Noah

[Jarred Land]

ha ha.. yes perfection was a bad word.. I just mean some day we will all agree on a resolution/format/range that we will agree is good enough.. Kinda like we hit with analog phone lines and 48k sound. wait.. ignore the sound part.

[taubkin]

What is happening is that we are getting to affordable HD, that is affordable Movie Theather standard (not as good as 35, but certainly acceptable).

Then, the market will have to evolve, because that would turn the high end manufacturers bankrupt, so basically, movie standard will evolve to 2K and 4K, and TV to HD, so basically our DVCPro100 Cameras would turn again into mere DVX equivalents.

From this, we have two options: One is buying one of those cameras right away, be the first kid to try them on a feature and have a chance of a BIG break, while HD is still hot.

OR

The people won't buy 4K, and people will watch DVCPro100 and will not think (Jeez, why can't it look like Spiderman). In fact, they do that today: How many people left the movies in Collateral because it didn't look like spiderman?

[Isaac_Brody]

Since television is becoming more like film what's the incentive for people to go to the theatre? More and more I'm catching stuff on DVD where I don't have to deal with obnoxious teenagers, babies crying, Jewish grandmothers, and five dollar popcorn.

Not to mention that depending on the quality of your neighborhood theatre you may be watching a dirty print of a film with poor sound quality.Once we get HD-DVD's I wonder how many people will quit going to movie theatres because of the huge expense and lack of quality. A lot of films are making more money in DVD than in the theatrical run.

So I guess I'll shoot my film on the HDX, sell a bunch of DVDs to Jewish grandmas, stream my premiere on DVXuser, wash, rinse, repeat.

[reservoir]

....Hey Isaac...I can definately relate to the obnoxious teens, and crying babies....but what's with the Jewish Grandmothers? Can you explain that one. I'm not too familar with that *term*. I quit going to the theater a LONG time ago just for those facts you mentioned. I understand the concessions being pricey, theaters don't make alot of money on the films themselves due to reel rental fees and such....as least that's always been my understanding!! I maybe goto 1 or 2 movies per year. I *WILL* go see "Sin City", and that will be it for a long time. When Blu-ray / HD-DVD is out.....I'll probably NEVER go again!! ~reservoir~

[taubkin]

Man, you gotta get out, see people, mingle, c'mon, party! Stop going to the movies because of jewish grandmas? that's the exact reason why I leave my place so often... :)

[Isaac_Brody]

Now I'm picturing Ron Jeremy hitting on Jewish grandmas at the theatre..

the horror... (insert Brando apocalypse now smiley face)

[ARRIguy]

And, also keep in mind that your ACTUAL storage time might be a lot higher than 20 minutes of tape, given that you can easily manage the clips while you're shooting, and delete any garbage clips instantly. On tape I usually find that an hour-long tape yields somewhere between 5 and 20 minutes of usable footage (for a dramatic/narrative/commercial type production). The rest of it is takes I'll never use, etc. With the P2 card you can instantly delete that stuff and only keep the good stuff. So your actual, in-the-field usage may, under certain circumstances, be a lot more generous than it sounds currently.

Sure I agree with the ratio of "useabe" to "unusable" tape/footage you're talking about BUT...

1) Making decisions about what material to dump or not to dump in the midst of a busy shoot. It would be another thing to take focus off the main goal: to get good coverage. I wouldn't like being forced to do it. And I would be forced if I was stuck for more storage.
2) Editors have often used my out take (sometimes even my "garbage take") as their prefered takes. Why? The content of my out take (talent delivery, a quirky camera movement that worked better for the editors cut, a technical problem I didn't see in my preferred take, etc.) was more important for the picture than my camera work - the main thing that I am able to assess in the field.

Except for obvious disasters (hopefully a relatively small proportion of the shoot) the decisions of what takes to use or not are best left to the editor not the cameraman or the director (while he is in the field).

I'm still looking forward to what the camera has to offer but hope that it will have cheap storage options for HD.

[David Jimerson]

Did . . . anybody walk out of "Collateral"?

[ARRIguy]

If you don't have any business need for the camera, it'd be silly to spend $6000 to $10,000 on it now, regardless of what cards cost. But if you do have a business need for it, the cost of the card stopping you from buying (and the idea of turning down business because you're waiting for a card price to drop) doesn't add up.

I wouldn't advise anyone to make an investment like this and then go fishing for work, I think that's a recipe for bankruptcy. But if you've already got work, and can see how this camera could bring you more, I don't really see any downside.

I can see this would be the case for someone in your shoes and able to pay the card in a day or two of shooting, but it's not necessarily for many others who may be eyeing this camera.

For example: I expect to be doing little paying work with the camera when I buy it. However, I do want to collect High Def material for a film idea I'm about to flog and hopefully get financing for. I won't have bucks coming back from my investment for several months maybe even a year or two. So, since I don't have an immediate business payback for it, I *will* need cheap, ample and convenient storage while I'm in the field in a shooting session.

I am counting on my dream making economic sense - even though the payback will be way down the road. I just hope the storage features on this camera will allow me to do it.

[Evolve]

Barry Green Quote(don't know how to do the fancy blue box thing yet) "On tape I usually find that an hour-long tape yields somewhere between 5 and 20 minutes of usable footage (for a dramatic/narrative/commercial type production). The rest of it is takes I'll never use, etc. With the P2 card you can instantly delete that stuff and only keep the good stuff. So your actual, in-the-field usage may, under certain circumstances, be a lot more generous than it sounds currently."

ARRIGUY just said this, and I have to agree. As a filmmaker, and editor, there is no way that I want any single piece of footage that is shot deleted or thrown out until the film or tv show or whatever it is is completed. The edit suite is where the stitching happens, and sometimes the strangest stuff is what works.....a look, a couple of frames of interesting camera movement, cross-cutting of takes, anyway you get the point. What happens if you make a mistake and delete all of it? The wrong take? So I have to respectfully disagree with you Barry, that deleting unwanted takes is a proper course of action. I think it's a serious error to do this in the filmmaking process, regardless of what you are shooting.

The well-founded concern with the whole P2 thing is the lack of storage space. If you are out shooting a documentary, which I will be shortly, you can't set time aside during shooting to download footage to a computer. First, to assume that the time will be at hand is to assume that you have control of the situation. This is not the case in true documentary filmmaking. You are only documenting the situation, and examining it later. Therefore, if I have to make the time to download footage, I may miss something important. Also, to lug along a laptop, or portable hard drives, requires either more people or bigger shoulders. Either way it slows you down. In addition to this, laptops and portable hard drives are not designed to be carried around on a run-and-gun documentary style shoot, which may involve a variety of places, temperatures, and potential lack of power sources. In order to download these P2 drives, you have to have that much more gear together and prepared in advance, at least in my case.
My other concern, although that has been somewhat addressed, is the backup. The great thing about shooting to tape and then diging the footage into the computer is that you still have a backup on tape when the computer or drives crash, as they often do. Fair enough, you can backup to DVD, although again this takes time, requires proper formating etc. Bit more of a pain in the arse....also, my experience has been that burning to DVD is a bit of a finicky science, especially when regarding different OS's, editing systems etc. But it could be okay.

I for one do not feel that the P2 card situation as it stands alleviates my concerns. I am excited to see what the new Panasonic will be capable of, and am looking forward to the future evolution of the ability of smaller cameras and hard disk recording, but I don't see how a P2 card capable of holding 20 minutes of footage is going to do any good for anyone shooting doc style stuff. It's time-consuming to download, requires extra gear, and isn't exactly cheap(at least the projected prices aren't). I am optimistic that much greater capacity cards will be available at reasonable prices sooner than later.....say a 3 hour card for $500. Not unreasonable, and most probably already built in the lab, but then there's the corporate factor........slowing the release of technology to maximize profit at every turn at our unwitting behest.

Having said all this....i await the arrival of this camera!!!!!

[Michael_Bott]

I second Evolve's worries about shooting docs with this cam. My fears exactly but I would love to have them allayed.

[mr._guiyotinne]

I love this place! THIS is fun!

I must say that thinking in the possibility of an external drive attached to the camera and if it´s able to record dvcproHD will be a in-between time solution (i´m a lexical bad surfer...) The moment P2 can storage one hour or two (lets dream) i will jump for sure on them. The portability, no cables to hard disk, the little cute size; everything is an advantage. P2 will be the mastercard of news gathering (accepted everywhere... (at least it´s what it says here in Sp.)) and edditing.

We are just critic animals, and it´s true that by now, the only problem to be ressolve is the storage time. Once it´s done P2 will be a near to perfect technology. And in conjuction with the HDX it´s going to be awesome.

I just like to party!

[Zim]

a 60 minute P2 card for about $25 would be good,,,,ok maybe alittle more! I would like them cheap enough so you can just keep the P2 card as your back up. I keep pictures on my compactflash card till I have made prints, burned on CD. Even then I leave some on the card.

[Neil Rowe]

..yeah, i dont really see why people are whining about what the cam will have. we know p2 will makes sense for most people in a year or so. even doc shooters. cause you were limited to a 60 min tape before anyway. and if you can have an external HDD on the cam right when it comes out, then get a grip. whats the point of trying to make fun of a baby dragon? just because its not mature now doesnt mean its powerless.. people have to learn how to do a little forward thinking and see beyond the current limitations and workflow. and recognize a new way of doing things ...the way of the future.

we know it has p2, and we know it could possiblly and IMHO will likely have external HDD capabilities as well. so why all the fuss? if by some chance it actually doesnt have external HDD when it comes out, then i can see why some might be dissapointed, but right now there seems to be alot of people simply picking on the chicken before its even hatched.

[bgundu]

Many people are voicing their concerns about the amount of storage options available today. This camera may not be for everyone today, but overtime it will be the only way to go. Let's not forget that the DVX100 is still going to be around. This camera is obviously going to appeal to indi filmakers and broadcasters. By the time P2 technology matures, it will find it's way to the consumer level which will probably find it's way to the DVX100 (or whatever it will be called in the future).

It's amazing how Panasonic has really been pushing the limits of SD technology. Sony has Memory Stick, Olympus has XD, Sandisk invented the Compact Flash. I wonder what Canon will be using in the future?

[Zim]

Your right people are thinking about today,,,not next year. The prices might fall pretty good by late fall of 2005 when this new camera is released. Maybe they will have it out sooner.

[Bart_Boge]

I, for one, am hoping that the new technologies and the highly-anticipated camera (HDX) depress the pricing of the good ol' DVX100a. I am looking to pick up a few more in the next six months, and the better the HDX, the more likely that the DVX price will continue its downward slide.

For straight-to-DVD projects like the ones I do, the DVX+PanaAna 16:9 shoots for the final output media perfectly. In 3-5 years I might upgrade to the HD world, but only when a sizable segment of my clientele have Blue-Ray/HD-DVD desktop players and the major studios rerelease all of their film titles on HD. Heck, that could be a decade from now. Look how long it took CDs to crush vinyl LPs--and CD audio is CLEARLY audibly cleaner and more pristine than "scratch'n'pop" vinyl, even to the non-audiophile. I am not sure that most people perceive that kind of difference between a well-encoded theatrical release on DVD and an HD broadcast.

Don't get me wrong--anyone can see the difference netween SD and HD. But just how big a difference? I am very picky about display formats, but a perfectly-calibrated home theater system playing a DVD can actually be BETTER than a theater's image. I have seen three movies in theaters over the last month, and if the projectionist does not have flawlessly clean optics and perfect focus, the image can actually be softer than LCD video projection.

Only when the price comes down to near-SD levels will HD catch on as a dominant format for consumers. It has only been about a decade since the average video consumer ditched their VHS collection and rebought all of their classic films on DVD. That average consumer is still pretty happy with that paradigm shift, and are not itching to rebuy his/her catalog all again at premium prices to get HD resolution.

The very first time I am in real danger of losing a client for not providing content in HD will be the instant I hop on the bandwagon and buy a decent HD camera. I doubt it will be anytime before that, so long as the DVX pays the bills.

[Phooey]

Bart, you may be missing something. A well encoded theatrical release on DVD started as film, then likely HD before it was encoded to a SD DVD. That's why it looks so good. While we wait for everyone to have HD in there homes (which could be a while and is fine) it will be amazing to work with an affordable way to acquire HD and encode to SD DVD. The results are stunning.

[Shaw]

Actually, most if not all hollywood DVDs are scanned in at SD. There is no HD -> SD conversion. In fact, it has been argued that this would create an identical, if not slightly softer image (large thread about this elsewhere with a test in the works I believe).

I can see getting the HDX for it's color space though. That's something that cannot be faked.

[braw]

..yeah, i dont really see why people are whining about what the cam will have.

...but right now there seems to be alot of people simply picking on the chicken before its even hatched.

That's true. We should all just shut our pie holes and take it like the little soap droppers we are.

There's nothing wrong with speculation. It helps when there are people on the board that know what they are talking about to explain and alleviate falsehoods. New technology is expensive out the gate. We could all be surprised if Panasonic decides to take a big loss on the cards to propagate the medium, but it is either rare or not so dramatic a loss most of the time.

What a lot of us are nitpicking are what we actually know. There's a 2 and 4 card out there and what range of record times we have. There will probably be an 8 when the camera drops...and to all of our surprises there might be a 16 sooner than we know. I wouldn't say a lot of this is "wild speculation". It seems to be pretty educated guesses.

I will almost definitely bite on the camera because I have faith in Panasonic, I am just a little concerned that that bite might be more than an economy car, for a few minute spurts of record time. I may very well be way off the mark, but can't I voice concerns that aren't unique? :beer:

[Neil Rowe]

..the HDX to DVD will likely only look as good as the DVX to DVD. ..ill have an HDX likely the day they come out.. im going to race barry for the first one! but we have to be realistic about what it can and cannot do. films are scanned at SD res to make SD DVDs.. not high def then SD. and presumably the HDX image will likely only be the same as the DVX accept high res.. so downresing to SD its likely to look exactly the same.

braw , sure man. i didnt mean to tell anyone to not speculate, but theres a difference between pure speculation and people saying that a camera isnt practical because it doesnt fit their workflow requirements the best when it first comes out. i was just trying to point out the level of negativity that can arise when people focus on the negative instead of the positive. we know that p2 will rock with longer record times and cheaper prices after the camera is out a little while, and we can speculate with some level of confidence that it will have external HDD in the meantime. .. my pint is that right now people would love to have reliable external HDD on the DVX. but just because theres something better (P2) all of a sudden seem to be talking like external HDD on the HDX isnt even a possible solution for them in the least.. and since the best /better option of P2 cards doesnt fit their wallet or workflow. the whole camera isnt practical somehow until p2 is in their range. its like i keep saying that it will probably have external HDD and nobody even listens.. they just focus oin the P2 because thats what they want cause thats whats best right now. im just saying that if it comes out with HDD as well then i really hope people will just use it until p2 matures more and stop all this stuff about the infancy of P2 and focus on a camera that is designed for the FUTURE.. and not limited to what is available right now.

IMHO i feel like people are somewhat complaining about being given a million dollar CD that they cant access for another year or so. and they will likely be given other funds to supplement it until they can get at it.

..and to me that doesnt seem like much to mope about.

edit: doh! forgot the smiley :beer:

[reservoir]

Soon guys, something next week.

Ok...it's officially *Next Week*. Any new info going to released possibly? Please? Pretty Please with Sugar on Top? I'll be your best friend!! Thanx Jan,

~reservoir~

[braw]

braw , sure man. i didnt mean to tell anyone to not speculate, but theres a difference between pure speculation and what was transpiring here.

Maybe I wasn't reading carefully a lot of the posts. I can only speak for myself as far as concerns. I guess I'm just nervous that this thing will be riding the edge of prosumer into the pro category as far as price for what you get.

Solid state is the shit, if the card interface is open to 3rd party vendors, this is going to be incredible and the card sizes will probably increase much faster.

I do however hate the format wars that will seemingly never end between companies. DVCPRO-HD seems so much more superior to HDV, but JVC and Sony are on the HDV short bus.

[Bart_Boge]

Actually, most if not all hollywood DVDs are scanned in at SD. There is no HD -> SD conversion. In fact, it has been argued that this would create an identical, if not slightly softer image (large thread about this elsewhere with a test in the works I believe).

I can see getting the HDX for it's color space though. That's something that cannot be faked.


Shaw,

You make a good point--color depth is one huge benefit. And I suppose having HD acquisition means original archival footage is ready for better, high-res formats of the future.

Still, in a cost/benefit analysis, there is a timing issue here. Buying bleeding-edge technology is costly. Wait too long, you lose gigs; adopt too early, you blow major cash unnecessarily (and what if the format becomes a "VHS vs. BetaMax" flop?).

I refuse to respond to the impulse of "gear lust." I would like to time my technological advances on my overall business model, not my fan-boy crush on new toys.

But then again, why am I on this site, this thread? Maybe just appeasing my "inner fan-boy"...?!

[Neil Rowe]

JVC and Sony are on the HDV short bus.

or an H2.. pretty much the same thing :cheesy:

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hi Reservoir,

I am a little embarassed that the calandar I was looking at was March, when I should have looked at April. Don't kill me but there will be an preview ad on the 4th of April. Look at the calendars for the full blush on my face. :embarasse

Oops, so on the 4th there will be a sneak preview ad.

Best,

Jan

[reservoir]

Thank you Jan. I will assume the preview ad will probably have a few more tibits of information on the camera and maybe a picture or three!! :) So we can expect a *small* preview then full disclosure at NAB? Thanks again for being so patience with us, as we are like a pack of wild dogs ready to tear into this new camera. ~reservoir~

[Phooey]

If compression is involved (which with DV there is a lot) it will always look better to go from a high res to a lower res than to just start at the low res.
Even if film skips going to HD, film is obviously a higher res than SD. That was my only point. Usually older films are transferred to HD for archival purposes. That's the only thing I've really looked at as far transferring from film.

[Bart_Boge]

Whether you start with film, HD, or a DVX, standard DVD resolution is 720x480. If footage with a DVX is extremely well lit, well composed, and good color settings are used, I doubt the end result would be much different from film-to-DVD or HD-to-DVD, except for DOF, which is hard to pull off with small CCDs/lenses. Just from contributors to this form I have seen absolutely stunning footage from a DVX.

HD gives you much better resolution for HD format playback, better color depth for more flexibility and control in post, and perhaps better DOF if the optics are designed to enhance the effect. But I doubt that the final look would be substantially better on a DVD with a HD system than a DVX in capable hands.

I thought it was fascinating that Jan brought up that bigger CCDs means poorer low-light performance, which only makes sense--the lit image focused against the imaging chips is bigger, and hence dimmer, than on a smaller chip. While for many applications (particularly "film-like" shallow DOF shots) this effect would actually be beneficial (the ability to leave the lens further open without having to resort to ND filters yields a net shallower DOF), for ENG or prosumer applications where light sensitivity is paramount, bigger CCDs can actually be a disadvantage.

I suppose there are two ways to improve imaging--making pixel-denser small CCDs (for ENG/prosumer users) or more light-sensitive larger CCDs (for digital filmmakers). Did Jan tip Panasonic's hand as to which direction they want to go in for the new camera?

[mccainds]

Or you could use the P+S Technik Mini 35 adaptor, that allows you to attach 35mm lenses and rephotographs the image retaining DOF and Angle of view. For anyone in Atlanta I would be glad to give a demonstration: danmccain@danmccainproductions.com

[Jarred Land]

yes.. HD-DVD is finally about to break.. Right now there are only 2 HD-WMV consumer players out there that i know of, but by the time the camera is released there will be enough players out with a reasonable price tag to finally put everyone's (including mine) HD displays/TV's to use.

Then I figure there will be an onslaught of demand for HD content.. HD disks will be commercially viable and the SD world will start to take a back seat. I know Barry isn't going to agree with me on this one, but by this time next year many of us will leave the SD world for good.

[braw]

I know Barry isn't going to agree with me on this one, but by this time next year many of us will leave the SD world for good.

Man I hope you're right. I am hoping that this new onslaught of cameras and the ability for more people to produce on that level will push it forward.

[Bart_Boge]

If anyone wants to ship me their crummy, outdated DVX100a cameras with those antiquated, old-school 16:9 anamorphic lenses, I'll gladly PM you my home address. Don't suffer one additional minute with such inferior equipment when the HD revolution is just minutes away!


:)

[Barry_Green]

I know Barry isn't going to agree with me on this one, but by this time next year many of us will leave the SD world for good.
Hey, it can't come soon enough for me. I can watch a few things on my HDTV, but nowhere near enough, and SD broadcasts are getting harder and harder to watch. I'd rather there were HD-DVDs on the market *now*, and all cameras and editing systems were able to produce in HD *now*.

But wishing and wanting ain't the same thing as it actually happening. If someone offered a killer electric car on the market tomorrow, one that meant basically no compromises at all, just plug it in instead of paying at the pump -- would oil companies and gas stations disappear overnight? Or over the course of a year? Three years? Five? Ten?

After being on the market for 7 years, HD is now in maybe 7% of American homes, in Europe it's not even on the market yet! Do you really believe that in 12 months time SD will be obsolete? Or in the minority? Or that HD will have more than even a slight minority of penetration into American and European households?

I vote that SD ends immediately and HD take over right now. But, realistically, there's not a prayer of that happening, and it'll be YEARS and YEARS that SD will cling to life.

[NoahK]

I'd be so down with that Barry. It would help a lot for an HDTV to cost the same as an equivalent sized SD tv. It sounds crazy I know but DVD players were like $500 when then first appeared. Now you can get them for $25. Price drives demand or is it the other way around?

Noah

[Rich Lee]

i just got an HD tv late last year. i think i get a little over 10 hd channels...there arent many of them...but of those the few that kick ass are the discovery hd channel...kcet...skinamax and hbo...so rad.

the discovery hd channel just flat out kicks ass...i love watching it.

anyway i was wondering about HBO and Skinamax...they say they are hd, the quality is great, way better then the digital version of the same channel...and they are in 16x9. im just wondering, do they actualy get the studios to produce 16x9 hd versions of the movies they play? or are they just uprezing standard def movies? anyone know?

[Jarred Land]

I knew you would say that.. Im not saying that SD will be extinct as a viewing format, but as an aquasition format it may. The last 2 features I helped produce in SD that ended up getting National and International distribution REQUIRED an HD delivery format, which meant some tricky uprez work (read: alot of money) . As HD rolls out more annd more channels through cable HD will just be required... Almost Every TV in the store now over 40" is compatible with HD (even if its not full hd rez), and as people get used to how good HD looks its gonna be harder. I know production companies up here that bought 2 varicams and a 900 last year and havn't used thier SD cameras since... and as these HD cameras become cheaper there is no reason not to shoot with them, even if you know will end up only making a SD dvd.

And yes Europe doesnt have HDTV, but 45% of the TV's are 16:9 format.. so at least they got the shape right.

[Jarred Land]

i just got an HD tv late last year. i think i get a little over 10 hd channels...there arent many of them...but of those the few that kick ass are the discovery hd channel...kcet...skinamax and hbo...so rad.

the discovery hd channel just flat out kicks ass...i love watching it.

anyway i was wondering about HBO and Skinamax...they say they are hd, the quality is great, way better then the digital version of the same channel...and they are in 16x9. im just wondering, do they actualy get the studios to produce 16x9 hd versions of the movies they play? or are they just uprezing standard def movies? anyone know?

The big shows are shot either on Film or HD cameras, and shoot 16:9 but frame for 4:3... then for normal SD channels they just scale down the resolution.

if you wanna see watch your news channel in HD and when the anchors are talking you will notice on thier desks cofee cups and papers that they think are out of frame but in 16:9 they are still there.

[Rich Lee]

i get how tv shows work. im curious about about hollywood movies on HBO HD and Cinemax HD. dare the studios redelivering their films in HD to the cable movie channels?

what happens to a film like say...top gun? it was made in the 80's, they probably didnt make an HD copy of the movie...so do they go in and tranfer to film over to HD for distribution to cable HD channels? i imagine they will do this once HD dvds take off, right?

sorry, i know this is off topic....:undecided

[XCheck]

Well, I assume by now, most of us have seen this:

http://www.dalsa.com/shared/content/images/DC_design_panel_500w.jpg (http://www.dalsa.com/dc/design/dc_design.asp)
But that's not my point. I took a tour of the company last week, and one thing they were talking about is how their other technology (kind of robotic vision systems) is helping to drive down the price of large flat-panel TVs.

Of course, the camera itself is not HDTV, but you take the 24P 4K output, downrez it to 1080x1920, slap on 2-3 pulldown, and you have HD content with marginal additional cost. So, I'd say that HD is going to be here sooner than most of us think.

Remember, even Bill Gates thought that 64K memory must be enough for anybody... that was... 1990-ish? One thing about making predictions on technology adoption rates is that they are almost always wrong. I am not an expert, but my gut feel sides with Jared.

[Jarred Land]

yes.. top gun on 35mm is scanned to HD, as most movies are now adays, when you have a movie to sell to a distributor, they request a HD-D5 or HDcam HD tape as well, even if they initially are targeting only SD channels... that makes it easier for them to sell to HD channels in the future without going back to the producers to provide a HD master. CBS and NBC, even the non HD versions, require 1080 line 30frame delivery of content, which is usually tele'd out from a 1080 24p master. One of the last shows to still get away with delivery in SD was the NBC show Scrubs, which untill September was still delivering in SD, but now even though it is still shot in super 16 it is now delivered on HDCam.

[Terry_Lasater]

Ah, heck... let's just go straight to UHDTV - Ultra High Definition (7,680 x 4,320 pixel resolution). 18 minutes of footage takes 3.5 terabytes of storage space.

In case you are not aware, NHK is developing this technology. http://tinyurl.com/3pz54

[Jarred Land]

Ah, heck... let's just go straight to UHDTV - Ultra High Definition (7,680 x 4,320 pixel resolution). 18 minutes of footage takes 3.5 terabytes of storage space.

In case you are not aware, NHK is developing this technology. http://tinyurl.com/3pz54

ha ha.. dont laugh it will come.. when hd kicks in full force The film community will be pushing 70mm onto us as a superior format. I dont know what the girl will say when I bring home the Panasonic 400" IMAX-Theatre-in-a-box and try to set it up in the living room.

[XCheck]

Panasonic 400" IMAX-Theatre-in-a-box and try to set it up in the living room.It's time for home builders to get on the bandwagon and stop designing our dwellings as little boxes. How long time ago did Michelangelo build the dome of St. Peter's in Rome? And we still have flat ceiling in most homes? No wonder HD-IMAX is catching up so slow... :grin:

[reservoir]

Remember, even Bill Gates thought that 64K memory must be enough for anybody... that was... 1990-ish? One thing about making predictions on technology adoption rates is that they are almost always wrong. I am not an expert, but my gut feel sides with Jared.

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." --Bill Gates, 1981

Other notables are:

"DOS addresses only 1 Megabyte of RAM because we cannot imagine any applications needing more." --Microsoft, 1980, on the development of DOS.


"Windows NT addresses 2 Gigabytes of RAM which is more than any application will ever need." --Microsoft, 1992, on the development of Windows NT.


"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." --Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949.


"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." --Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943


....and the newest one added to the annals....


"8 Gigabytes of RAM ought to be enough for anyone." --Reservoir, Dvxuser.com member, 2005

[Digigenic]

"8 Gigabytes of RAM ought to be enough for anyone." --Reservoir, Dvxuser.com member, 2005
:grin:

[BLUESPIDER]

"640K ought to be enough for anybody." --Bill Gates, 1981

Other notables are:

"DOS addresses only 1 Megabyte of RAM because we cannot imagine any applications needing more." --Microsoft, 1980, on the development of DOS.


"Windows NT addresses 2 Gigabytes of RAM which is more than any application will ever need." --Microsoft, 1992, on the development of Windows NT.


"Computers in the future may weigh no more than 1.5 tons." --Popular Mechanics, forecasting the relentless march of science, 1949.


"I think there is a world market for maybe five computers." --Thomas Watson, chairman of IBM, 1943


....and the newest one added to the annals....


"8 Gigabytes of RAM ought to be enough for anyone." --Reservoir, Dvxuser.com member, 2005

reservoir, great quotes man! :grin:

[Flintstone]

"8 Gigabytes of RAM ought to be enough for anyone." --Reservoir, Dvxuser.com member, 2005
Yeah! But I expect we'll need a heck of a lot more in a few short years. At least for us digital content creators.

[Flintstone]

Oh! And I believe that Bill Gates also said that the Internet was just a passing fad in the early 1990s. Go figure!

[BLUESPIDER]

yeah, and Bill Gates also needs to get laid.

[reservoir]

Yeah! But I expect we'll need a heck of a lot more in a few short years. At least for us digital content creators.


Yeah...of course the "8GB should be enough for anyone" was a little bit of a joke, playing off Bill Gates' old quote. It is not unreasonable to think that in 5-10 years our Hard drives will be measured in TB's (Terrabytes) and our RAM sizes will probably be around 16 / 32 / 64 Gigs (See the pattern? Remember the old days of 16MB, 32MB, and whoa...a whopping 64MB for Windows 95 / 98!!). Given the ever increasing speed and size of solid state I don't think this is out of the question. I personally would like to see MAC and Windows address 16gigs of memory in the next year!! ~reservoir~

[Digigenic]

Alright, aside from NAB, when do we get to see what this new cam looks like? If I'm not mistaken, weren't we told to expect something this week?

[shAi]

Hi Reservoir,

I am a little embarassed that the calandar I was looking at was March, when I should have looked at April. Don't kill me but there will be an preview ad on the 4th of April. Look at the calendars for the full blush on my face. :embarasse

Oops, so on the 4th there will be a sneak preview ad.

Best,

Jan

i'm a little embarrassed to admit -- we're getting crazy here :cheesy:
mercy !!!

ok let's talk about something else meanwhile.. like.. like. . .. the workflow of P2 -- dogh!!

[reservoir]

I think we've exhausted just about every subject including the *workflow*!! Let's just see the darn camera already!! Let's hope April 4th has some pictures and other helpful information ready for us. ~reservoir~

[boo]

I think we've exhausted just about every subject including the *workflow*!! Let's just see the darn camera already!! Let's hope April 4th has some pictures and other helpful information ready for us. ~reservoir~

not quite...i don't recall anyone asking if it has that clicking sound when you tilt the camera...http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/images/icons/icon10.gif

[Shaw]

Haha! It had better! What else would we do in this forum if we didn't have to answer that question? =D

[dvpixl]

"yeah, and Bill Gates also needs to get laid."

-BLUESPIDER DVX MEMBER 2005

[bgundu]

It's been kind of quiet lately about news surrounding this camera. I'm wondering what type of teaser ad Panasonic will be showing next week? I hope it's better than what JVC had.

[dvpixl]

these teasers are going to be shown where???

[bgundu]

these teasers are going to be shown where???

It's all about generating traffic to your website so I guess it'll be on Panasonics homepage.

[dvpixl]

right, of course. How could I not think of that....

[10s]

This thing is HOT!

http://img200.exs.cx/img200/8083/hdxxl10007ek.jpg (http://www.imageshack.us/)

[shAi]

i see the need for a HDX-craziness-supporting-group..
why is this website always manage to become some sort of addiction or mental disorder to me...?