Why are specs so hard to come by? [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

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DaveN

11-09-2010, 07:43 PM

The AF100 has been "out" for days and I still don't know what the signal to noise ratio is for this camera. The new Sony F3 has only been out a few hours and we already know everything we need to about it short of seeing actual footage. Can this be attributed solely to the"unfinished" working model idea?

mcgeedigital

11-09-2010, 07:45 PM

Because, although the hardware is likely done, it is the software and firmware that will finally give the final DR.

And that is still being worked on.

DaveN

11-09-2010, 07:57 PM

Matt,

I will take another shot of patience and tell myself once more, this camera is the real thing. It's funny what we want out of our cameras. For me, if this thing isn't quiet I don't care how well-controlled aliasing and moire are.

mcgeedigital

11-09-2010, 08:00 PM

Well, more footage should be coming soon, so we will see what it looks like.

LoganMackay

11-09-2010, 08:11 PM

Ryan Patrick O'Hara

11-09-2010, 08:20 PM

Isn't quiet? it has no moving parts.

haha, He means signal noise I think. :P

LoganMackay

11-09-2010, 08:22 PM

haha, He means signal noise I think. :P

Haha, hope so.. This isn't the first time someone has asked how noisy it will be.

Michael Olsen

11-09-2010, 08:30 PM

I tried to write a poem or rhyme (a limerick, actually) to make this more entertaining, but...

I think that we will get all the specs and information we want when the hardware reaches the state of being "ready for production" and the first models have been taken off the assembly line. Until then, Panasonic can post all the specs they want, but they won't really mean anything since the camera is incomplete. So, logically, they've chosen to wait and release specs which correlate to real world performance.

Maybe I should try responding in the style of the Sagas...

DaveN

11-09-2010, 08:40 PM

Yes--- a noise free image or something like unto it.

digitalfilmmaker

11-09-2010, 08:54 PM

well, neither camera is out. both need to be put through their paces by Adam Wilt and other third party evaluations before we really know what's what. Initial reports look promising, but there have been many examples of cameras that did not live up to hype.

Barry_Green

11-10-2010, 06:47 AM

The AF100 has been "out" for days
No it isn't. It's not done, and it's not out yet.

and I still don't know what the signal to noise ratio is for this camera.
Panasonic doesn't typically publish that spec on their AG series. But they also haven't published just about any specs on the AF100 yet, no specs on sensor size, pixel count, any of that stuff. Most of that will likely be published soon. But I doubt the SNR will be, because they just don't normally do that.

Barry_Green

11-10-2010, 06:49 AM

Yes--- a noise free image or something like unto it.
Nothing has a noise-free image. The EX1 certainly doesn't, and the Red 1 definitely doesn't. The closest I've ever seen to a "noise free" image is off the new Sony F3, and that's 3x the price.

Dino

11-10-2010, 07:35 AM

Barry,

Very happy to read about the improvement in noise you called out. I wasn't satisfied with what I saw on the prototypes at the Createasphere show in Burbank at ISO 200 and 400--of course that's why they are called prototypes. Great to see that Panasonic is finessing the AF100 in the final weeks before release. Thank you for all of your hard work
in testing and communicating the powerful features of this camera, look forward to the book!

Duke M.

11-10-2010, 07:38 AM

Barry, has anyone reported the signal to noise ratio?

DaveN

11-10-2010, 09:22 AM

Michael Olsen

11-10-2010, 09:25 AM

The camera is still in development.

That means it isn't done yet.

They can't publish specs because they don't know the specs.

They don't know the specs because it isn't done yet.

When it is done, they will post the specs.

And the specs will be verified independently by end-user testing.

If you just want the final specs, don't bother reading anything about this camera until it's shipping. Until then, it can all change.

Matthew Bennett

11-10-2010, 09:28 AM

Dino

11-10-2010, 11:31 AM

A little noise is a good thing on these 8bit images - the last thing we want is a sickly platiscky image like the 5D.

A finely grained, sharp, feathery image with superb color representation is what we want. At least I do!!!

Agreed. The noise I saw on the prototypes was not filmic--it was random and had some chroma in it. If it was like my HPX2700, then great. It's a moot point since what I saw is most likely not part of the production release models. I'm glad that Panasonic invited some qualified people that we trust to evaluate the close to final version of the AF100 to Japan.

mcgeedigital

11-10-2010, 11:56 AM

Rick Burnett

11-10-2010, 12:03 PM

Barry,

What frustrates me is the Panasonic approach. Are you (them) debuting this camera or not? If your not giving me printed information then what's the reason? If you've got a ground-breaking camera then give me some facts to back it up. The camera is out. It was out the moment you and everyone else who had their hands on it posted reactions. This idea of 75% done is a joke. Sony releases the F3 and guess what, no guessing games. I know from the web and their website what to expect. Having said all this, I want this AF100 to be a great camera. I've never seen more potential camera for the price in my 28 year career.

The idea that you have ANY clue what development is like is a joke. Just because they have four cameras or so that *work* has absolutely NO bearing on what the final product is going to be. The sensors in them could be from a first batch run, and newer sensors destined for the final production release, which of course, VERY HEAVILY can affect SNR. And, just so you are clear, I am a chip designer, and I am familiar with production cycles and methodology. Sure, the actual percent done is debatable as someone is trying to assign a numerical completion amount to a random set of issues, but that's not really the point. The point is, they may not have an actual final SNR because they probably need to get enough production level parts to test them and report the final amount. It could be more, it could be less than their prototypes.

The same thing was true with the MX sensors from Red. As they continued to tweak the firmware AND the hardware settings, they were able to squeeze more DR out of their sensor. You can follow their discussions of it in random threads as they talked about it. There are MANY variables into tweaking the best DR. And, they can take quite a bit of time to find the best settings.

DaveN

11-10-2010, 03:02 PM

Grimepoch,

Here is the central issue for me. I am not being served in any way by the premature release of a 75% percent camera. I am not a product development specialist, I never said I was one. I appreciate the efforts of a Barry Green to educate the production community despite the fact that he must qualify his statements by reminding everyone that this camera is unfinished. Panasonic should have had that last 15-25% figured out long ago. How? In this forum Barry himself said he had a limited amount of hands-on time with the camera. Why would Panasonic not choose Mr. Green and 11 or so talented filmmakers from around the world to use this camera, not for 2 or 3 days, but for 30 days. Use it in every conceivable production environment they can think of. THEN go to Japan armed with footage and experience and sit down with their team and make the camera what it ultimately will be. I have total faith that Barry and the others, in that one simple exercise, could tell the Panasonic group all they need to know.

If this example is overly simplistic or naive I plead guilty. All I want from any manufacturer is to tell me what the product does. Not what they think it will do or what it will do in the future. Parting with hard earned money is never easy but if Panasonic can show me a finished project with honest promotion/information, then that's all I can ask. At this point, I've got to tell my wife our tax return has got a new purpose.

Best,

Dave

Barry_Green

11-10-2010, 03:25 PM

What frustrates me is the Panasonic approach.
They do indeed go about it slightly differently.

If your not giving me printed information then what's the reason?
There will be printed information. Just not at this stage.

The camera is out. It was out the moment you and everyone else who had their hands on it posted reactions.
It was out in prototype stage, with much subject to change. And much has changed. So we may disagree on the terminology. What I'm using is not something you can buy, so it has no effect on your bottom line. When the issues start to affect your actual purchasing decision, then I'll agree with you a lot more that more info needs to be released.

This idea of 75% done is a joke. Sony releases the F3 and guess what, no guessing games. I know from the web and their website what to expect. Having said all this, I want this AF100 to be a great camera. I've never seen more potential camera for the price in my 28 year career.
Well, you might want to tune out for a few weeks then, because getting frustrated is no fun and ultimately serves no purpose. It's like Red -- I look forward to seeing their finished Scarlet S35 and may very well buy one, but I'm not going to devote even one neuron to listening to their pronouncements, changes, updates, revisions, more changes, and delays. It's utterly pointless. And has been, for almost three years now. Every bit of Scarlet discussion has been, ultimately, wasted breath.

I think the AF100 is quite different, as there are functioning models in people's hands right now. Six of us are here, five from Europe (including Filippo Chiesa, who posted the Alfa Romeo footage and who is actively partcipating here on the forum). You'll hear opinions soon, I'm sure.

Until then -- if the unveiling/rollout process is causing angst, I suggest just tuning out for the next month, as it gets revised and finished. There's a big show in japan next week or so, Interbee -- maybe they'll release more specs there, I don't know.

Barry_Green

11-10-2010, 03:27 PM

Very happy to read about the improvement in noise you called out. I wasn't satisfied with what I saw on the prototypes at the Createasphere show in Burbank at ISO 200 and 400--of course that's why they are called prototypes
Some shots are great. Some, I'm still seeing some noise in the darks. I don't understand what the magic recipe is to get 'em clean all the time, and I'll be trying to badger the engineers to explain it to me.

Barry_Green

11-10-2010, 03:27 PM

Barry, has anyone reported the signal to noise ratio?
No, and Panasonic doesn't typically release that spec on their AG-series products. I believe they do on the top-of-the-line AJ series, but I don't know that I've ever seen the AG series report SNR, going back to the original DVX 8 years ago I don't think I've seen a published SNR on any AG-series camcorder.

Barry_Green

11-10-2010, 03:38 PM

Panasonic should have had that last 15-25% figured out long ago.
See, but that's the problem -- guys like us are there to help them get it that last 15% or 25% of the way. The units we're being shown and spending time on, are basically "beta" versions. It's part of the development process.

The only thing that's different now is that they haven't signed any of us to a stringent non-disclosure agreement. This type of development process happens all the time and every product goes through it, but historically the testers have been prohibited from even acknowledging that they've ever even seen the unit. The internet has changed people's perceptions of how things should work, and so we are free to share a lot more. They take that feedback into account, not just from those of us using it, but how the customers are reacting to it, and then have the opportunity to prioritize their revisions to the final version.

An example -- the viewfinder. I got to the bottom of why Philip doesn't like the viewfinder. It's not that it isn't crisp and sharp and bright, because it is. But Philip has become accustomed to a MASSIVE viewfinder. He's used to working with the gigantic view you get from a 3" display, magnified 3x through a Zacuto Z-Finder, located three inches from your eyeball. That's not what the AF100 has. It has a sharp, crisp, clear viewfinder, comparable to that of the highly praised GH1 viewfinder. Read some reviews on the GH1, you'll see that pretty much universally it's praised as having a breakthrough awesome viewfinder. But it's not nearly as big as what Bloom's used to. The EX3 and the ZFinder have changed his expectation of what a viewfinder should be. I, on the other hand, never noticed it, because I don't use the ZFinder or the EX3, I use conventional viewfinders on conventional cams (EX1, HPX170, HMC150, HMC40, etc) and the VF on the AF100 is every bit as large, and substantially seriously superior to, any of those.

So the question to Panasonic is -- what's important here? Is Bloom's preference so widespread now that they'd have to re-engineer the viewfinder? Or do guys like me, who are plenty content with the viewfinder, going to be representative of what the average user wants? The sooner they get that answer, the more time they have to work in any required revisions. So they're interested in what we say, but they're also very interested to get a snapshot of the public's potential reactions too.

Like it or not, the internet has changed the way the development process works, at least in terms of the release of information.

Parting with hard earned money is never easy but if Panasonic can show me a finished project with honest promotion/information, then that's all I can ask.
Agreed, and that time will come. Nobody should be making a hard-earned-dollars decision based on a preview of a prototype. People do get excited and anticipate, but I would ask that everyone contemplating a purchase would please understand that what we value, and what they value, may be different, and you may very well hear differing opinions based on our experiences.

What you ask will happen. If you ignored the pre-release phase and instead started paying attention on Dec. 27th, you'd have exactly the process you describe -- a fully-vetted camera system with specifications, released to the public. So really, everyone can have it both ways -- if the prerelease phase bothers you, don't pay attention to it, like I have chosen to do with the Scarlet. Not that I'm not interested in the Scarlet, I am -- but I don't like all the wasted hypothesization, so I ignore it. If you feel similarly about the AF100's development phase, I suggest to just ignore it, it's a short wait until final info will be out.

DaveN

11-10-2010, 05:07 PM

Barry,

thanks for your time and consideration, I never meant to flame anyone or anything. If I were to be totally honest my frustration is NOT with Panasonic but with my own engineering dept. I work for a large corporation that has an almost irrational devotion to Sony. I have tried on several occasions to get appropriate Panasonic gear into our shop without so much as a We'll see. I have no doubt that this camera could immediately raise our production value and give our show the look it deserves. Any thing that our staff can use against me, such as an unfinished camera model, can be ammunition for the Sony camp. It's not right but that's the way it is. My only satisfaction comes in knowing that come spring, my own video business may have access to a level of quality I never thought I could own.

Best,

Dave

Duke M.

11-10-2010, 07:21 PM

No, and Panasonic doesn't typically release that spec on their AG-series products. I believe they do on the top-of-the-line AJ series, but I don't know that I've ever seen the AG series report SNR, going back to the original DVX 8 years ago I don't think I've seen a published SNR on any AG-series camcorder.

If its a good as many people have reported maybe they should consider it this time. Otherwise it will look like they're afraid of comparisons. No one in their right mind should expect it to be like a $30k cam (but some will I know), but I'd sure like to know where it falls in the spectrum.

mcgeedigital

11-10-2010, 07:35 PM

If its a good as many people have reported maybe they should consider it this time. Otherwise it will look like they're afraid of comparisons. No one in their right mind should expect it to be like a $30k cam (but some will I know), but I'd sure like to know where it falls in the spectrum.

I'd rather have someone like Adam Wilt and his penchant for obsessive compulsive testing evaluate the camera once it ships.

The marketing specs of the camera are well known.

Let's see how it measures up ONCE IT IS READY.

Rick Burnett

11-10-2010, 10:15 PM

I can understand frustration. Waiting for the S35 has given me a lot of that. I'm not unhappy that Panasonic has shown a 75% done camera because with their release track record, it has allowed me to plan out my purchase of the AF100 and pre-order it. Engineers tweak till the last minute, as I have on many a project. Like all things, marketing promises the world, engineering has to make the world happen, and sometimes, nobody want to wait for all the engineering work to be done and wants to start showing of the fruits of their labor.

Since I've not actually given my money to Panasonic yet, I hardly feel I could or should be upset with anything I've read. I too thank many of those who have had the opportunity to shoot with the beta AF100 and gleam even a little insight to what we may expect.

The other thing for those not accustomed to working with foreign companies is they really seem to do some strange things compared to what domestic companies may do. I see this all the time. It's what makes me laugh when I read Jim Jannard ask "I wonder if our competitor is up right now working". Clearly he hasn't worked with electrical engineers in Japan, Korea or China because *I* can tell you first hand, many of those people work 17+ hours a day when I work with them, and I end up doing the same. I've met VERY FEW engineering companies that didn't work crazy hours, because if you don't, well, you wont survive.

All I can say is this, take a deep breath and hold on just one more month :) It's almost here and THEN you can see if you like it. That's a lot better than ANY alternatives right now that might be a possibility.

Barry_Green

11-11-2010, 12:38 AM

If its a good as many people have reported maybe they should consider it this time. Otherwise it will look like they're afraid of comparisons. No one in their right mind should expect it to be like a $30k cam (but some will I know), but I'd sure like to know where it falls in the spectrum.
I asked them today, and they said that it is just not something they do. They have never released the SNR spec on any AG-series product. I don't expect that to change this time.

Barry_Green

11-11-2010, 12:41 AM

The other thing for those not accustomed to working with foreign companies is they really seem to do some strange things compared to what domestic companies may do. I see this all the time. It's what makes me laugh when I read Jim Jannard ask "I wonder if our competitor is up right now working". Clearly he hasn't worked with electrical engineers in Japan, Korea or China because *I* can tell you first hand, many of those people work 17+ hours a day when I work with them, and I end up doing the same. I've met VERY FEW engineering companies that didn't work crazy hours, because if you don't, well, you wont survive.

Exactly. When I was at Westwood Studios, we frequently pulled 18-hour days. Wouldn't have dreamed of working less than 14. Engineering is a different world. People in France riot because they might have to work more than 36 hours in a week; I and several video game programmers have occasionally put in 36-hour days. It's insane, yes, but ... it's what you do.