Better be less than 10K

[comet48]

The new system had better be a lot less than 10k, as look at what you can get from JVC for a little more. Not HD, but this is a great 1/2 inch 3-ccd system with incredible removable lens, hard disk recorder, etc.

GYDV5100L19DR Camcorder Package w/19:1 lens

Includes: tripod plate, microphone, and Anton Bauer gold mount battery plate. Package contains:
• VF-P116U 1½-inch VF
• DR-DV5000-40 40GB HDD Recorder
• KA-A50U Microphone holder
• AB-DIONIC-PKG battery/charger
• YH19X67KRS 19x 1/2" Canon lens


GYDV5100L19DRRetail: $14,999.00Our price: $10,735.00

[Jack_Felis]

WTF? Where'd you get that info? ~_^

[reservoir]

...And who might I ask is "OUR"......in the our price? HHmmm?? ~reservoir~

[scharky]

IT's my price, I am selling those suckers from the trunk of my car.:evil:

[comet48]

Hi,
It's not mine. It's listed at;

http://dv411.com/

[Shaw]

Sounds interesting but I don't really think we can compare the two. Quite different technologies with different targeted crowds I think.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Comet48 wrote:
GYDV5100L19DR Camcorder Package w/19:1 lens


But this is a DV camcorder, only does DV, will only ever do DV. No 4:2:2 SD, No HD. This isn't a competitor at all for the new Panasonic camera.

Best,

Jan

[comet48]

IMO you are right - not competitive - it's much better.

1. Significantly better optics - removable at that.

2. I spend my time in the still camera world, canon EOS 1 series, but I presume that the same rules apply.
There is no substitute for pixel size. The 1/3-inch ccd is only 44 percent the size of the 1/2-inch ccd. Add to this the fact that the number of pixels will be increased substantially for HD, you end up with significantly smaller pixels. Therefore higher noise, reduced dynamic range, poorer low light performance, limited F-stop range, etc. You just can't keep adding pixels to a 1/3-inch ccd without consequenses.
I don't care whether it's 4.2.2, 4.1.1 etc, the old adage holds true - garbage in, garbage out.

3. Hard dish drive capture - higher capacity, lower cost.

If Panasonic comes out with a 1/2-inch product for around 10K, then maybe. Otherwise I would rather have a 1/2 inch system like the one above.

I have no axe to grind here - I am in the market for a new system, but can't see myself shelling out $10K for a fixed lens 1/3-inch CCD HD system when I could have a 1/2-inch system like the one above for a similar amount. Or the sony system for $5K.

[Neil Rowe]

..in reality we dont know for sure what size CCDs the new HDX will have, and if it has a fixed lense or not.

..also, remember that Pani and JVC are children of the same parent electronics corporation : Matsushita

granted they have their own agendas as divisionary companies/units , but all in all your only saying that youd rather buy a product from one division/unit of the same company than from another.

[Zim]

Under $5,000 and Panasonic will have a huge hit. $9,000 or something around there will limit the sales. The Sony Z1 was going to be over $5,000 but ending up under that. The XL2 was under $5,000. I don't think Panasonic will jump into this new camera with a high price tag.

[Shaw]

Again Comet48, we're talking two entirely separate beasts designed for entirely different purposes IMO. It's not logical, meaningful, or really useful to make the comparison.

[comet48]

Again Comet48, we're talking two entirely separate beasts designed for entirely different purposes IMO. It's not logical, meaningful, or really useful to make the comparison.

Which markets do you believe each of these products is aimed at?

[Neil Rowe]

the HDX is somewhat obviously aimed at independent filmmaking and other dramitic production including documentary and other types of filmmaking. as well as the possibility of event videography.

..id assume the jvc is aimed at ENG and pro event videographers seeing as it is SD and has no progressive scan and of course no 24p .

what you really need to ask yourself in terms of filmmaking applications.. what do you gain from that camera. the only thing i can see you have to gain from a cam like that is the large ccd for shallow dof. and the option to change the lense, but lets be real here does anyone actuall ever change the lense.. not really. sure you can, but can you afford to? and do you need to? probably no and no again.

on the other hand you should ask what you would lose with that cam.. you lose 24p HD, you lose the small compactness of the DVX/ andpresumed HDX smaller style form factor , you lose all progressive scanning so up to half the res of the cam is dumped for any film out. you lose mutiple cine gamma options . you lose P2 abilities. and i think you lose dvcpro50..didnt see the JVC had it at all in the specs.

as to whether you lose an interchangeable lense system and the CCD size .. or if the image suffers at all remains to be seen. technology is always improoving so what little pixels used to suffer from may not be an issue any more. so ven if the HDX is 1/3 inch ccds wed really have to wait and see what if any new technology in it does, and what the resulting imagery is like before we can just say that it will be bad or worse off simply cause it has 1/3 inch ccds.

all in all if your a filmmaker IMHO i think the JVC would be a poor choice. but hey to each thier own... i certainly dont care or have any issues if you think its better suited for fimmaking. im only pointing out soe thing that should be considred before you actually purchase something in an effort to help you discern on your own what cam is best for you.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Comet said:MO you are right - not competitive - it's much better.

And you can have you opinion, it just happens to be unfounded on performance and capability.

>1. Significantly better optics - removable at that.

I will conced the removeable optics, but in general over the 30+ years that I have been selling in the Video business, the number of guys that used more than the lens they bought with the camera are few. And the quality of the lens was mostly a compromise at this level of camera.

>2. I spend my time in the still camera world, canon EOS 1 series, but I presume that the same rules apply. There is no substitute for pixel size. The 1/3-inch ccd is only 44 percent the size of the 1/2-inch ccd.


A 1/2" CCD can get you more dynamic range but there is more to it than pixels and numbers. When we start to talk about 24P or 30 P, I would expect the new Panny camera to outperform the 5100 in resolution any day of the week. As far as gamma curves, hands down on the Panasonic. We have a 1/4" camera the AG-DVC30, that virtually matches performance of the DVX100, but no progressiv. Adam Wilt did the review, and if you know Adam, you know he is pretty picky. Technology can aid a lot of issues.

>Add to this the fact that the number of pixels will be increased substantially for HD, you end up with significantly smaller pixels. Therefore higher noise, reduced dynamic range, poorer low light performance, limited F-stop range, etc.

I think I cannot say here what the reality is and thus this will go unrebutted, but I think you are making some erroneous assumptions.

>You just can't keep adding pixels to a 1/3-inch ccd without consequenses.
I don't care whether it's 4.2.2, 4.1.1 etc, the old adage holds true - garbage in, garbage out.

On a standing still picture the Sony HDV camera makes better pictures than the JVC camera and if you have not seen it then, perhaps you should. And that is with a 4:2:0 color sample. Where the HDV camera falls down is that it is bit-starved when the camera starts to move.

>3. Hard dish drive capture - higher capacity, lower cost.

Who's to say that the HDD couldn't be added to the new Panny camera, it certainly can with the larger SPX800.

>I have no axe to grind here - I am in the market for a new system, but can't see myself shelling out $10K for a fixed lens 1/3-inch CCD HD system when I could have a 1/2-inch system like the one above for a similar amount. Or the sony system for $5K.

The JVC camera is a nice camera, but I fully believe that it will have a run for the money when the Panasonic codec is at 4:2:2 Standard def, and the JVC will still be in 4:1:1 agony for aliasing, mosquito noise and heavier compression. And in HD, it will outperform the HDV because it is 4:2:2 and not starving for data. The variable resolution given to the HDV by virtue of its compression scheme will not be a problem for the DVCPROHD, if will be frame independent resolution. To each their own here, but I will take this bet.

Best,

Jan

[Neil Rowe]

"Who's to say that the HDD couldn't be added to the new Panny camera, it certainly can with the larger SPX800."

.. just in case you havent heard it enough, you rock jan.

[Barry_S]

Great points from IAL and Jan.

I agree, that JVC is an ENG/event camera where it's strengths are the low light capabilities of the larger CCDs and the longer lens. Unlike a still camera with a bigger CCD or CMOS where you can work with an uncompressed RAW file or lightly compressed JPG, the DV format with it's (relatively) brutal compression places a limit on the quality of the final image. So the scaling effect as it relates to still vs. video is completely different. Resolution, and particularly color fidelity and dynamic range take a serious hit during the DV compression process.

Think about the data streams from each camera. The JVC is limited to a 25 megabit/sec datastream as opposed to the HDX's (presumable) choice of 100/50/25 megabits/sec. Is there going to be a quality hit from smaller pixels? Of course, but I predict that the 50 Mbs DVCPRO50 datastream will easily surpass the quality of that JVC cam. I'm sure most of the filmmakers on this board will also prefer the aesthetic qualities of the 24P 25 Mbs HDX image on the basis of the frame rate and color palette

As IAL mentioned, DV filmmakers are looking for a feature set that includes progressive scan, so the JVC is a non-starter from that aspect alone. The JVC uses a "stretch" function for 16:9, so it throws away some of it's resolution there as well. The JVC is a probably a fine cam, but for a different niche of the market.

[Flintstone]

Who's to say that the HDD couldn't be added to the new Panny camera, it certainly can with the larger SPX800.
(In an Austin Power tone)
Yeah Baby!

[Flintstone]

Of course, but I predict that the 50 Mbs DVCPRO50 datastream will easily surpass the quality of that JVC cam.That would indeed be interresting to see.

[comet48]

I have HDTV via a DirectTV Tivo unit, and believe that it is definately the way to go. However, I am still concerned about the ability of Panasonic, or anyone else, to do a really good job with HD on a 1/3" sensor. The pixel is less than 1/5th the size of the SD sensor on a 1/2-inch camera.
Yes, compression reduces the quality of the end picture. I guess you can break it down into three components - optics, CCD and compression. Cr*p in any one will give you a poor result. I think it's fair to say the half inch system I described above wins optics and CCD, loses compression.
With a well lit scene, lens set a F8, most gear will produce good results. Unfortunately, all shooting environments aren't like that.

[dillont]

>3. Hard dish drive capture - higher capacity, lower cost.

Who's to say that the HDD couldn't be added to the new Panny camera, it certainly can with the larger SPX800.



YYYYYYEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!

If thats true, I'm a buyer.

Dillon

[MikeFawcett]

I have been following this site for quite a while and recently decided to join. I think this kind of discussion forum is great. Especially for us Panasonic "sales dudes" as someone once put it on this forum. This is a great site to pick up information on how Panasonic is viewed in the industry as well as our competitors. Keep up the great work!
My response to Comet 48 is -technology marches on and I remember when everyone was asking what Panasonic was thinking by bringing out a mini DV camera that does 24P--who wants 24P?

[Barry_S]

That was exactly my thought before buying a DVX100. I picked the camera for it's audio features and thought, "24P, Cineswitch? Sounds like marketing phooey." But it turned out to be the real deal. I'm really glad Panasonic hasn't hopped on the HD-Lite aka HDV bandwagon. The HDX sounds like real innovation.

[MathewM]

A camera is only as good as the sum of it's parts. With that said I just don't like the picture that the JVC cameras produce regardless of the number of pixels or price.

I'm hoping Panasonic keeps the Leica lens and the fat pixels of the DVX with whatever HD camera they have in store.

[redindian]

>1. Significantly better optics - removable at that.

I will conced the removeable optics, but in general over the 30+ years that I have been selling in the Video business, the number of guys that used more than the lens they bought with the camera are few. And the quality of the lens was mostly a compromise at this level of camera.
Best,

Jan

So the new HDX doesnt *not* have a removable lens system.

So what is the workaround ?
Stack some .8x or 3x convertor on top ? That does compromise the quality doesnt it ?

So if there is a quality issue in both cases, at least if its removable you can buy/rent better optics lens which forms the image without piggybacking on a existing lens.

[Flintstone]

Michael Fawcett
Regional Account Manager
National Capital Region
Panasonic Canada
Cool! A Canadian rep! OK, maybe not the product manager for the whole of Canada, but close enough I guess. So.... Michael.... why can't we have special deals like Jan C. does in the US? Magic Bullet, Barry Green's Book & DVD, etc? :huh:

[Shaw]

Cool! Soon we'll have a rep from every corner of the globe over here :D

[MikeFawcett]

Go to www.dvcpro.ca and send an email to David Craig, product manager for PCI. I agree with you 100%. Maybe this would help slow down grey market purchases of DVX100s and other Panasonic products on the web. I encourage all Canadians on this site to contact your local Panasonic Sales Managers in your regions. There are 4 regions-Eastern Canada, National Capital, Ontario and Western Canada. The more you work with us the more we can help you. Send me a message for more info.

[MikeFawcett]

How long has JVC been in the HDV game? If we were going to do it-it would have happened long ago. What ever happened to WVHS? Panasonic is not a company known to comprimise on quality to be popular. It should be a very exciting NAB.

[Jan_Crittenden]

redindian SAID: So the new HDX doesnt *not* have a removable lens system.

That is not what I said. I said that I conceed the interchangebale lens vs a lens that cannot be removed. There is a difference in concept. But in general most that have interchangeble lenses at this level of camera, do not interchange. Or they use the Mini-35 as a rental. This same argument has been used against the DVX100A, that was my point.

Best,

Jan

[Flintstone]

Wow! Jan, I just love to way you answered by not actually revealing anything about the HDX lens. Very savvy! You're right, I've heard the same thing a while back from other sources, that most people that buy cameras with interchangeable lenses usually stick with one, usually the most versatile. But if one reads between the lines, the answer should be no, the HDX will not have an interchangeable lens. It doesn't really matter, especially if the lens is good and has good telephoto and wide-angle range. What does matter is good focus and zoom rings.

[Flintstone]

Go to www.dvcpro.ca (http://www.dvcpro.ca/) and send an email to David Craig, product manager for PCI. I agree with you 100%. Maybe this would help slow down grey market purchases of DVX100s and other Panasonic products on the web. I encourage all Canadians on this site to contact your local Panasonic Sales Managers in your regions. There are 4 regions-Eastern Canada, National Capital, Ontario and Western Canada. The more you work with us the more we can help you. Send me a message for more info.Indeed... I'll take the time to properly compose a message.

BTW, is the site you linked a Panasonic owned domain? or is it just the product manager's initiative? Feels like the latter.

[MattC]

But in general most that have interchangeble lenses at this level of camera, do not interchange.

While I certainly believe you, I find this amazing. As an owner of an XL2 I change lenses all the time. I would have to believe that if the DVX had interchangable lenses many on this board would buy the additional lenses, not all, but many.

Jan, I have to say I looked really hard at the DVX and really wanted to get one, but I kept putting off buying one because I couldn't get past the "feel" of it. Now I will admit going in, that this is a very stupid reason, but it was mine. It just felt like a toy to me. I know it isn't, I know it is an amazing piece of equipment, I KNOW it produces AMAZING images, but the build quality was not something I was happy with. While I was waiting, the XL2 came out and seemed to fit my company's needs better for what it was doing at the time so we bought that. I not entirely thrilled with the build qualilty of that camera either but I think it is more than adaquate for the price point. I hope the new Panny will be more "substantial" if so it might just be (for me) the perfect camera.

Matt

[MikeFawcett]

The latter. It's purpose is to gather all the links and info that we can't post on the corporate website together at one site.

[redindian]

While I certainly believe you, I find this amazing. As an owner of an XL2 I change lenses all the time. I would have to believe that if the DVX had interchangable lenses many on this board would buy the additional lenses, not all, but many.

Matt

Is XL2 the only camera below <10K to have interchangeable lenses?

I know what you mean, most of the time we stick with one lens (lazy), but when the special need arises - nothing to beat the convenience of swapping lenses.

As a SLR owner, I have tones of Nikon mount lenses and would love to feed it to a hungry video cam! (10.5 fisheye, 12-24 f4, 70-200 f2.8 VR)

[Flintstone]

Michael, you should put the DVXuser.com link! An important contribution to the DVX world.

[Michael_Bott]

As a SLR owner, I have tones of Nikon mount lenses and would love to feed it to a hungry video cam! (10.5 fisheye, 12-24 f4, 70-200 f2.8 VR)

You can. Have a look at https://secure.xl1s.com/cgi-bin/shop/commerce.cgi?product=canacc&cart_id=9057034.27043 and scroll down ...

[abeljerrod]

...I have to say I looked really hard at the DVX and really wanted to get one, but I kept putting off buying one because I couldn't get past the "feel" of it. ...
... I hope the new Panny will be more "substantial" if so it might just be (for me) the perfect camera.

Matt

Matt- I would have to say that compact nature ("build") of the DVX is actually a selling point for some clients. If you shoot a lot of run and gun, guerilla shooting, or some documentary shoots a more compact, less "camera" looking camera can work to your advantage.

As far as the "substantial"-ness (not quite sure that's an actual word, but oh well) of the camera, I'm not sure if you are talking shear size or druability. If it's durability, the DVX is made with the same magnesium alloy diecast chassis that Panasonic uses in their DVCPRO broadcast cameras, which I would certainly say seem substantial to me.

As for the new Panasonic camera, I am guessing it will have the same chassis so it will be just as durable. As for the size, I think that's something we are all interested to see. Personally, I'm guessing a size between the DVX and the SDX but we'll all have a better idea soon.

just my 5 cents (2 cents plus tax and shipping)....

[MattC]

Substantial, well yeah, part of it is size I guess. I don't know, even a couple of days ago I was at B&H and I played with one again. Working the lense just feels, I don't know, cheesy... I hate saying these things here, because I don't want to insult anyone, like I said, I know it's a great camera, it just doesn't feel right in my hands.

I used to do a lot of competitive pistol shooting - learned from my father who was on the Army's pistol team. I grew up shooting the old Colt 1911s in .45. When Glock came out with their guns, it was very clear that they were, in many ways a far superior handgun. I can't stand them, they just don't "feel right" to me. Same thing.

[Gary_McClurg]

So Jerrod, if you had to guess more. What about interchangeable lens?

But I do like your thinking about the size and hope you're right.

[Isaac_Brody]

Matt, I know what you mean about size and perception from clients. The DVX has been great for me in run and gun situations, and I have yet to see any XL2 footage that has rivalled what I've seen on the DVX.

But of course at the end of the day the material you shoot speaks more than the aesthetics of the camera. Hopefully the HDX takes the form factor and image of the DVX up another step.

[abeljerrod]

So Jerrod, if you had to guess more. What about interchangeable lens?

But I do like your thinking about the size and hope you're right.

***Let me say first....this a complete guess...***
First, we have to look at how much technology and how many options they are adding to this camera. To keep this within a price range that : 1) stays consumer/pro-sumer friendly and 2) is in a distictly different price bracket than the Panasonic SDX-900 you have to realize there is a limit to how much you can get. I think it's matter of Panasonic determining what they feel the market wants the most, but without killing the sales of the SDX-900. I mean, let's be honest, if you could get HD, 24p, 4:2:2 color sampling, multi-format recording and add to that interchangeable lenses, who is ever going to buy the SDX-900? That said, I'd love to see that option on the camera but I'm trying to be realistic as to what to expect.

Trust me, our booth is literally right next to Panasonic at NAB and I will be the first one in line to see what we're getting!

[Jarred Land]

Go to www.dvcpro.ca and send an email to David Craig, product manager for PCI..... I encourage all Canadians on this site to contact your local Panasonic Sales Managers in your regions. .



Well you all know I am Canadian... and love Canada, However, I strongly disagree with this recommendation... from experience.



When I was first looking for the DVX100 I hit a wall with Panasonic Canada, The places they advised me to visit where useless (one of the only places in Canada I even remotely would advise buying from is DVshop.ca) and there is just a complete lack of knowledge from everyone I talked too.. even from Panasonic Canada.. remember this was before DVXuser.com.



I bought by DVX from the US.. actually I bought both of my DVX's from the US. and my next camera will be bought from the US... you get people like Jan C. and retailers like EVS and Able that really know what they are doing.. and offer the support and knowledge that make dealing with them beautiful.

[MattC]

I have to say, Jarred, you DVX folks are indeed lucky. If I ever "switch" it will be in no small part due to Jan. Just seeing the level of support that Panasonic gives you guys is both amazing and inspiring.

Matt

[Flintstone]

Hey Jarred! My vendor in Montréal (VGA Communication) is quite knowledgeable. As a matter of fact, his store sold more DVXes then others vendors in the eastern region.

I must say that what you said surprises me a lot. I was not aware that it was that bad. I guess my experience with VGA is exceptional then? :huh:

[Jarred Land]

Yes... Flinstone it was very bad... it can only get better though, and it seems that the east coast of Canada are alot better. I am not slaging Panasonic Canada directly, Its just that down south is sooo much more better. Im happy you found a good place there, I havn't heard of them but I will remember them.

[Jarred Land]

I have to say, Jarred, you DVX folks are indeed lucky. If I ever "switch" it will be in no small part due to Jan. Just seeing the level of support that Panasonic gives you guys is both amazing and inspiring.

Matt


yes... Panasonic doesnt pay for this site, but Jan comes here on her own, on her own dime to help everyone out... its that kinda of service and support that makes me have a high respect for Panasonic... not alot of companies that size works like that.

Everyone who is going to NAB should take a moment to thank Jan if you see her in the Panasonic Booth..

[Gary_McClurg]

Jerrod, thanks

I know they won't want to kill off the 900.

But I guess it doesn't hurt to dream.

[Neil Rowe]

not to play devils advocate, but just to state my point and opinion as it is ...personally i would rather have a single solid lense that has nice wide angle and a fairly decent tele range than have to deal with swithcing lenses at all. the only point of having a different lense is because one lense may not cover the range of focal lengths that you need or doesnt retain good optical quality throughout its focal length range. however if you can have one zoom lense that replaces 10 primes or 3 limited zooms and doesnt show a quality difference.. theres no reason on earth not to go with one great fixed lense. even michael mann went down to using 2 high quality zoom lenses instead of a plethora of primes for "collateral" cause switching lenses takes alot more time and costs alot more money for the lenses. im sure if there was one single zoom lense that wouldve done what he wanted he wouldve gone with one lense instead of 2. and if pani follows sonys lead and provides a lense which retains the wide angle of the DVX but adds a 12x or possibly up to a 16x zoom... hey, i dont think id be complaining at all.

in all honesty i think most people who cry for, but dont have an interchangeable lense system and multiple lenses now .. are just more enamoured with the thought of being able to switch the lense and have a sack full o cool lenses than they are actually thinking about the practicality of having to do so.

IMHO people should be more concerned and rooting for the realistic availability of a great stock lense that covers a wide range of applications with great optical qualities .. sure, i dont see why you wouldnt want it to be removeable so that you could replace it if you really needed to... that only makes sense. and i wouldnt mind in the least, and would prefer that if possible.. but again. i feel that alot of people simply root for a removable lense just for the sake of it being removable than for the sake of actually ever needing it to come off. and if it keeps the cost down and coveres most applications id rather just see a nice stock lense, and have some high quality lense adaptors to use on top of it. i wouldnt say that ive heard of anyone being dissapointed with the quality of the image through the quality adaptors on the DVX at all. and again their cost is alot less than a whole new lense. if it werent for the adaptors. alot of people would likely only have the option of the stock lense.

..anyway. all just IMHO. we want our cake and we want to eat it too, and if the lense was removeable the cam would likely cost alot more, and people couldnt afford it to begin with, and even if they could they would then look at how much a pro video lense costs and realise they will ..just like most other removeable lense pro camcorder owners .. never change the lense.

[Isaac_Brody]

Perhaps a stock HDX lens that goes fairly wide and telephoto that's removable. Most people would never remove it, but if you need more telephoto you'd be able to remove it. Best of both worlds.

[comet48]

***Let me say first....this a complete guess...***
First, we have to look at how much technology and how many options they are adding to this camera. To keep this within a price range that : 1) stays consumer/pro-sumer friendly and 2) is in a distictly different price bracket than the Panasonic SDX-900 you have to realize there is a limit to how much you can get. I think it's matter of Panasonic determining what they feel the market wants the most, but without killing the sales of the SDX-900. I mean, let's be honest, if you could get HD, 24p, 4:2:2 color sampling, multi-format recording and add to that interchangeable lenses, who is ever going to buy the SDX-900? That said, I'd love to see that option on the camera but I'm trying to be realistic as to what to expect.

Trust me, our booth is literally right next to Panasonic at NAB and I will be the first one in line to see what we're getting!

Also true of Sony and JVC. The one fly in the ointment is Canon, who I believe does not have a high end product to protect. Thus their removable lens on the XL series, in fact their support for manual lenses. Let's hope they can bring out product to put the pressure Panasonic, JVC and Sony. They certainly are the dominant player in the still camera business.

[MattC]

In fact, Canon's big line is lenses right? The want you to get into a bigger camera with better lenses (hopefully thiers).

[mr._guiyotinne]

I think the same about to have a good fixed lens. Maybe i´m little critic on it, but what´s the point of having 1/3 lenses if you will nearly have the same DOF? Yes, you can have a 300mm or a 28mm (thinking in 35mm lenses , sorry) attached to see the difference, but to shot in a little room with actors you wont feel the difference so much between a 28mm or a 50mm because it will have everything in focus range.

I said it before. I rather go with a nice Fixed zoom with macro ability and use it as relay lens for 35mm adapter... Then you can have the best of both worlds.

[MikeFawcett]

I will mention it to out product manager. I'm not sure why it's not there.

[MikeFawcett]

Well you all know I am Canadian... and love Canada, However, I strongly disagree with this recommendation... from experience.



When I was first looking for the DVX100 I hit a wall with Panasonic Canada, The places they advised me to visit where useless (one of the only places in Canada I even remotely would advise buying from is DVshop.ca) and there is just a complete lack of knowledge from everyone I talked too.. even from Panasonic Canada.. remember this was before DVXuser.com.



I bought by DVX from the US.. actually I bought both of my DVX's from the US. and my next camera will be bought from the US... you get people like Jan C. and retailers like EVS and Able that really know what they are doing.. and offer the support and knowledge that make dealing with them beautiful.

I tend to disagree. Maybe a couple of years ago when the DVX first came out this may have been true. I do agree we need to do a better job with promotions and the types of rebates the US puts forward. That's the reason I was encouraging the Canadians to get involved with Panasonic Canada. The more feedback we get the more we can help you.

[MikeFawcett]

And Yes Jan does a great job supporting this site. Product Marketing support and Sales support are 2 different things. If you are not getting the support through your existing or recommended sales channels then it is the responsibility of the sales managers in the regions to correct that. If we don't hear about the problems then we can't fix them. Recommending Canadian DVXusers to buy from the US is not helping anyone especially the Canadians who frequent this site. I constantly see comments from users of this site asking for promotions and rebates from Panasonic Canada but the first time a Canadian representative from Panasonic registers on this site and gets involved you shoot him down. This is not cool. Especially from one of the founders of DVXuser.

[Zig_Zigman]

Mike, you are in marketing, so you should know never lecture your ex-customer that he didn't come to you for a sale, for whatever reason. Instead, work to make sure that next time he will be a happy camper.

[MikeFawcett]

Thanks Zig
You are absolutely right. My bad! Sorry Jared. I just wanted everyone to know we are as passionate about our products here in Canada as the US and we are here to serve. It's our fault he feels the way he does. I encourage him to try again, but this time contact the Regional Manager for Western Canada if hedoesn't get the results he expects.

[Isaac_Brody]

Maybe Panasonic Canada should take a hint from Jan and put together a Serious DVX package of some sort. If Panasonic Canada wants users to take them seriously they're going to have to have to give people an incentive.

[Jarred Land]

Mike I'm not shooting you down, thank you for being here. You actually seem to know what you are talking about, which is promising.

I am purely commenting on my personal experiences with Panasonic Canada, ... You are asking me to contact the western rep.. but you don't understand, Lloyd is the first guy I ever contacted to ask where to buy it... it all went downhill from there. Lloyd just couldn't understand that I had a problem walking into a dealer and paying $1000 more (at that time) than in the US for a camera and get service that was on par with a futureshop employee that has had a bad day. the $1000 dropped shortly after the hours I spent talking to Lloyd about my issues, which is good, like I said, you guys are getting better...

I get alot of feedback from people buying from BC.. and most of its bad. Then I get a ton of feedback from people up here that bought from California.. and 99% of the time its all good. Its odd though, as it seems Eastern Canada has a much better network, maybe you guys keep a closer eye on things over there.

Its no surprise i don't get Christmas cards from David or Lloyd, but them whining to local dealers about me and how much of a jerk i am for telling people to go south for valid reasons, is; well; just not "cool" as you would say... it all comes back to me.... sure you guys dont need to like me, but someone somewhere there should at least appreciate the money I save you guys on Tech support alone, not alone Marketing your camera here for free...

You might not know me yet Mike. I'm blunt. I say things that probably upset some people, people that If I was smart I wouldn't want to offend.. but i just don't buy into the political journalistic synthetic "integrity" BS that alot of media outlets follow.. but hey hopefully that makes me special!

I do however appreciate you seeming genuinely concerned.. and look forward to helping you make Panasonic Canada improve if I can, just let me know.


:undecided

[Jarred Land]

And your on the money Isaac.. It's one of those funny business things.. If you can't give away nice books and software with cameras for the same price as the guy across the street... at least make sure your service is better than his.

[Wiyum]

not to play devils advocate, but just to state my point and opinion as it is

And I feel compelled to do the same:

This is coming solely from a narrative filmmaking perspective (and someone that has only shot on minidv once and HD twice, the bulk of my work being on film), so I'm certainly not speaking in terms of ENG, doc, or event work. But as a narrative filmmaker, I know that I do my best shooting when I have a set of primes. When you have to make a decision about what lens to use for a given shot, you're immediately forced to think about what lens is going to communicate everything that the shot demands: you'll make better decisions all around. Call it snobbery, but it's absolutely true, and I don't care who you are, it's a process that a zoom cannot replicate.

Certainly you say that a zoom lens without the quality loss would be great - and it would - but discipline and shooting psychology aside, zooms will *always* involve optical sacrifices. It's simply the name of the game. Sharpness, speed, and breathing are always going to be concerns with zooms, and there's really no getting around that.

But what annoys me most about fixed lenses is the lack of an iris ring and mre importantly the lack of hard stops and marks on the focus ring. I'd kill just for marks and hard stops. It'd feel so much more real. These are actually the big things on *my* HDX wishlist... something practical and doable, but oh-so useful for serious cinematography.

All of that said, I completely understand every sacrifice I just criticized for the concerns of price point and protecting higher-end markets. But an iris ring and marks and hard stops sure would be nice.

Not that I'll be buying until I get out of grad school anyway....

Will

[Jarred Land]

Will dont worry, the new Panasonic comes with a PL mount and a box of Cooke S4's
:)

[Jarred Land]

does anyone remember this?

http://www.dvxuser.com/articles/mini35/

[MikeFawcett]

Message received, Thanks for the feedback. Send me an email with your address and I will send you a Christmas card!

PS Here is another reason why buying in Canada makes sense for Canadians.
She posted this this morning in another location on this forum.

"It is altogether possible that you will not qualify for the $300 rebate. We do not offer that on gray market cameras. Also you wont receive the Magic Bullet for Editosr or Barry Green's book not to mention no warranty here in the US.
Hope this helps,
Jan
__________________
Jan Crittenden Livingston
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems
Product Manager, DVCPRO50/25,AG-DVX100A"

There is no warranty on gray market cameras here in Canada either.

[Neil Rowe]

..will, lense barrel markings and a lense barrel iris ring are things whichi would also really really like to see on the cam, and have requested since way back when the "wishlist" thread started, but as far as the zoom vs prime lense workflow.. sure, its different. but neither method is "better" . a cinematographer has to make choices regarding framing and composition and focal length whether its a zoom or set of primes at their disposition. the only differnce is with primes you need to decide which lense gives you the framing and focal length you want. ..and the end result could be entirely indistinguishable if they mad the same choices. thats the beauty of cinematography being an artform. anyway .. its not like either of our opinions is going to change whats on the HDX at this point, and in the end we would both prefer the same thing anyway. a nice high quality and versatile stock zoom lense with the option of removing it and replacing it with other standard lenses.
..it is only my belief that most people would not make use of the removeable feature, and it would only serve to raise the price..which is estimated at a point that the same people are already stretching their wallets to afford. i mean all in all. this is an entry level HD camera were talking about. we cant expect it to have everything that the varicam has for the price we want it at.

but if the lense IS removable.. ill be a happy guy.

[Gary_McClurg]

This is from my memory which can be bad at times.

The only thing with the mini 35 you have to use more lighting because you lose stops which can be worked out and because your zoomed out all the way. Your at the lens weakest point.

Also I thought it adds grain shooting off the ground glass and makes it softer which is fine for a video release, but not so good for a film out.

Can anyone reconfirm this.

Thanks Gary

[Jarred Land]

Message received, Thanks for the feedback. Send me an email with your address and I will send you a Christmas card!


There is no warranty on gray market cameras here in Canada either.

Lol.... jeeze here we go again.

If your in Canada and Buy a Camera from a Authorized US Dealer, not only do you get a full US warranty, but you also get all the free goodies that Canada dealers don't get... and even end up saving money.

The only issue is if you have a problem, you need to send it to the US to get fixed. But don't worry.. that $50 Fedex Bill is a good tradeoff.

[Jarred Land]

This is from my memory which can be bad at times.

The only thing with the mini 35 you have to use more lighting because you lose stops which can be worked out and because your zoomed out all the way. Your at the lens weakest point.

Also I thought it adds grain shooting off the ground glass and makes it softer which is fine for a video release, but not so good for a film out.

Can anyone reconfirm this.

Thanks Gary

yes Gary.. you are totally right.. The Mini35 is basically destroying your image by going through so many glass elements, and the ground glass, but, its one of those destructions that just looks incredible in the end... as long as you dont blow it up too big.

[Gary_McClurg]

Thanks, Jarred.

Also maybe should post this on another link. But I never have much luck using search. I have to admit I haven't tried it on the new format here.

But what about your high speed camera. Have you worked out the color version. Shooting some ski and snow boarding footage in a week or so. Most likely using HD. Might even use three DVX's. But would like to get some in camera slow mo stuff.

[Neil Rowe]

.. i wonder how well an HDX hi def image would hold up on the big screen if using the mini 35? .. certainly better than te DVX does and it would probably be acceptable above even a standard DVX image to the big screen.. im sure well find out soon enough.

[Jarred Land]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary_McClurg
Thanks, Jarred.
But what about your high speed camera. Have you worked out the color version. Shooting some ski and snow boarding footage in a week or so. Most likely using HD. Might even use three DVX's. But would like to get some in camera slow mo stuff.




Yes we have the color version..1920x1080 HD, interchangable lenses that dumps onto a 16gb mem array. The color one we can only capture up to 2000fps.. but for snowboarding and almost anything else, it's good enough.
You can see the color clips on one of our other business's websites, www.purposelabs.com (http://www.purposelabs.com/)

Click on the thumb to watch the WMV HD video

http://www.purposelabs.com/images/water_still.jpg (http://www.purposelabs.com/water_full_color.wmv)
Full-auto water - BB pellets into water, first color test, 500 fps (1632x800 square pixels)

http://www.purposelabs.com/images/pool_yes.jpg (http://www.purposelabs.com/pool.wmv)
Pool hall - Lots of colored balls and some interesting points of view, mixed frame rate (1632x800 square pixels)

http://www.purposelabs.com/images/jarred_still.jpg (http://www.purposelabs.com/closeup_yo.wmv)
Close-up - What a Handsome guy! heh heh...Real-time motion extraction test, 24 fps (1632x800 square pixels)



:)

[comet48]

One would think that any optics problems would be magnified with HD. When Canon brought out the EOS 1DSM2, with its increased resolution, "very good" lens weren't so good any more.

[Jarred Land]

of course.. which is why everyone is making HD lenses now.

[Tzedekh]

Also true of Sony and JVC.

It looks like the new JVC ProHD camcorder will have a removable lens. And 24p. And multiple formats. Just no 4:2:2 (only 4:2:0). Pricing rumors abound, generally $6,000 to $10,000.

[Jarred Land]

yeah that JVC is gonna be interesting.. if they can figure out the whole 4:2:0 and 25mps limitations it might be worth looking at.

[Jan_Crittenden]

yeah that JVC is gonna be interesting.. if they can figure out the whole 4:2:0 and 25mps limitations it might be worth looking at.

Hi Jarred,

The 720P HDV drops to 19Mbs, but also has a shorter GOP. So unless this is somehow different than that which they have offered in the HDV in the past, I don't thinkit will be the ideal solution.

And then there is the glass. We had a 1/3" camera, and we were given two choices and only two choices. So hopefully the will be able to get a good HD lens on a 1/3". That will be the next interesting question.


They could up the data rate, but then are the edit systems that are working to support HDV now, going to deal with the higher data rate?

Lots of questions in my mind,

Jan

[comet48]

Hi Jarred,

The 720P HDV drops to 19Mbs, but also has a shorter GOP. So unless this is somehow different than that which they have offered in the HDV in the past, I don't thinkit will be the ideal solution.

And then there is the glass. We had a 1/3" camera, and we were given two choices and only two choices. So hopefully the will be able to get a good HD lens on a 1/3". That will be the next interesting question.


They could up the data rate, but then are the edit systems that are working to support HDV now, going to deal with the higher data rate?

Lots of questions in my mind,

Jan
Hi Jan,
In the still world, both Canon and Nikon have SLR cameras that are less than full frame, but still use the standard 35mm lens, resulting in crop factors between 1.3 and 1.6. Have you ever considered using a 1/2" Bayonet mount with the 1/3" ccd. Again a crop, but that is not all bad as long as you can get a lens wide enough at the wide angle end. The optics work better, as only the center parts of the lens are used.
Is there a big differential in cost between the 1/3" ccd and the 1/2" ccd? I can't imagine it's that big - then why not a 1/2" product for $10K with a removable lens along with the 1/3" product at $5-6K on top of Sony. I understand that is going to put money in a competitors pocket (Canon), but I think it addresses a market that the DVX doesn't do all that well at, events and ENG, due to it's weak low ligkt performance (3 lux).
The DVX seems to be well supported by film makers due to it's 24p, but event and ENG users are not going to want to transfer their results to film They do care about low light, and will care about HD. I don't see a well priced Panasonic product to address these markets, which one would have to believe are a lot larger than the independant film producer.
My 2cents worth.

[Jan_Crittenden]

HI Comet
>Have you ever considered using a 1/2" Bayonet mount with the 1/3" ccd. Again a crop, but that is not all bad as long as you can get a lens wide enough at the wide angle end.

This is what we finally did in the end, we had Fujinon come up with a 1/2" with a 1/3" mount. But this lens cost about twice the cost of the 1/3" lenses. Perhaps things have changed. But the thing that has not changed is the cost of a real HD lens.

>Is there a big differential in cost between the 1/3" ccd and the 1/2" ccd?

Yes, especially if you do not have one and either have to make one or buy it from somebody else. Keep in mind that this has to be a progressive CCD.

>I understand that is going to put money in a competitors pocket (Canon), but I think it addresses a market that the DVX doesn't do all that well at, events and ENG, due to it's weak low ligkt performance (3 lux).

The more dense the pixel count the worse the low light sensitivity.


>The DVX seems to be well supported by film makers due to it's 24p, but event and ENG users are not going to want to transfer their results to film

I was at a show yesterday where more of the folks that I talked to that owned the DVX did events than there were filmmakers.

> They do care about low light, and will care about HD. I don't see a well priced Panasonic product to address these markets, which one would have to believe are a lot larger than the independant film producer.

I think this is where you and I might have to agree to disagree. I am not convinced that the Bride or corporate president would not be upset if the video froze along with audio for a 1/2 second during the vows or meaningful speech, or during the couple's toast or whereever. And with these HDV cameras I have not seen a single one that has better low light performance than the DVX.

Best,

Jan

[redindian]

It looks like the new JVC ProHD camcorder will have a removable lens. And 24p. And multiple formats. Just no 4:2:2 (only 4:2:0). Pricing rumors abound, generally $6,000 to $10,000.

At the same price and feature point (24p HDsomething),
If JVC has interchangable lens and 4:2:0 and
Pana has fixed lens and 4:2:2

JVC would be a much more attractive buy.... coz the image can be manipulated in 1000s of ways, but field-of-vison, DOF cannot be done in post.

[redindian]

www.purposelabs.com (http://www.purposelabs.com/)

Click on the thumb to watch the WMV HD video

http://www.purposelabs.com/images/water_still.jpg (http://www.purposelabs.com/water_full_color.wmv)
Full-auto water - BB pellets into water, first color test, 500 fps (1632x800 square pixels)


OMG! that was wonderful... how was it done ?? at what cost ?
purposelabs website doesnt have any details....

[Jan_Crittenden]

At the same price and feature point (24p HDsomething),
If JVC has interchangable lens and 4:2:0 and
Pana has fixed lens and 4:2:2

JVC would be a much more attractive buy.... coz the image can be manipulated in 1000s of ways, but field-of-vison, DOF cannot be done in post.


Actually, if the chip is the same size the depth of field will also be the same. Plus since each image frame will not stand alone, as it is HDV. 4:2:0 is 4 samples of luminance in ratio with 2 samples of red and blue on every other line. 4:2:2 is 4 samples of luminance in ratio with 2 samples of red and blue on every line. So more color and on DVCPRO HD each frame stands on its own. And frankly it does not have the same feature point other than one at 24P. as one example, it does not do 50Mb, for 4:2:2 Standard Def. And to manipulate the image in thousands of ways, you would need thousands of lenses. At a 1/3" imager, there are not 1000s of lenses.

FWIW,
Jan

[Neil Rowe]

JVC would be a much more attractive buy.... coz the image can be manipulated in 1000s of ways, but field-of-vison, DOF cannot be done in post.

the lense isnt going to change your DOF. at most you could throw a longer lense on to make the DOf apparently shallower. but for equivilent framing you could get the same apparent DOF with a wider lense and simply being closer to your subject... which is likely what youll have to do most of the time unless youve got 50 feet of room in every location you plan to shoot in.

[redindian]

Actually, if the chip is the same size the depth of field will also be the same. Plus since each image frame will not stand alone, as it is HDV. 4:2:0 is 4 samples of luminance in ratio with 2 samples of red and blue on every other line. 4:2:2 is 4 samples of luminance in ratio with 2 samples of red and blue on every line. So more color and on DVCPRO HD each frame stands on its own. And frankly it does not have the same feature point other than one at 24P. as one example, it does not do 50Mb, for 4:2:2 Standard Def. And to manipulate the image in thousands of ways, you would need thousands of lenses. At a 1/3" imager, there are not 1000s of lenses.

FWIW,
Jan

I meant, footage shot in 4:2:0 can be post processed to 'look' like 4:2:2 (thats what I meant by image can be manipulated in 1000s of ways)

field of view
http://k41.pbase.com/u32/vernix/upload/31541666.wacomparison.bmp
Obviously its impossible to get a 18mm field of view with a 32-320mm lens. Thats what I meant.

[Jan_Crittenden]

redindian said:I meant, footage shot in 4:2:0 can be post processed to 'look' like 4:2:2 (thats what I meant by image can be manipulated in 1000s of ways)

One of the things that we need to keep in mind, that yes you can put the video into a 4:2:2 algorithm, but if you take it to the very essense of compression, once you have given it(the resolution) away, you can't make it up, you can mask it, but you can't make it up. The rules of concatenation(multiple codecs) apply. And since the DVCPROHD codec is 4:2:2 in its native state in HD or in the DV50 version of its SD res, then how does the HDV work for me? How is making it up through moving to another codec work to my favor?

>field of view:
Obviously its impossible to get a 18mm field of view with a 32-320mm lens. Thats what I meant.

All I can say here is that when you get to 1/3 inch lenses, and I am talking about selling a 1/3" camcorder over 7 years, and very likely it will track to the 1/3" HD lenses, the choice berween lenses will be short. I think the way to deal with the needs of various lens lengths is the same way it works with the DVX. You can either add a lens to the front as a wide angle( and so you can increase the 32mm width) or telephoto. Or you add the mini35 and use 35mm lenses.

Regardless, the P2 product is on an established editing platform, both PC, under Avid Express Pro HD or Apple Final Cut Pro HD.

Hope that helps,

Jan

[Neil Rowe]

:huh: .. neither jan or i commented on the field of view. ...only the remark concerning DOF.

but as jan said concerning FOV.. you would use a lense adaptor. .. obviously only those of high quality which retain optical integrity.

oh well though.. to each there own. buy whatever suits you. the dvx has a fixed lense and i bout it over the xl1 and kept it over the xl2. just my choice.. its certainly ok to feel differently though.

[redindian]

All I can say here is that when you get to 1/3 inch lenses, and I am talking about selling a 1/3" camcorder over 7 years, and very likely it will track to the 1/3" HD lenses, the choice berween lenses will be short.
Hope that helps,

Jan

Thanks for the reply Jan. That is a very valid point - the scarcity + expense of such lenes.

[Jarred Land]

OMG! that was wonderful... how was it done ?? at what cost ?
purposelabs website doesnt have any details....


That was done at zero cost, because we were developing the camera. It's digital to onboard 16gb ram that then dumps over 1gb ethernet to laptop.. nice stuff.

But the camera is gonna be about $70k.

[PlanetAloha]

>

All I can say here is that when you get to 1/3 inch lenses, and I am talking about selling a 1/3" camcorder over 7 years, and very likely it will track to the 1/3" HD lenses, the choice berween lenses will be short.

Jan

Which is exactly why a 1/2" CCD should be offerred.

There are a lot of things to like about this new camera. However, as a nature videographer, this new camera will most likely not fit my needs. I have been waiting for a camera with good glass that will allow me to fully realize the other capabilities of the DVX. I don't forsee this happening with the new HDX.

I have heard several other people on this forum express the same desire over the past 6 months to 1 year. They are looking for improved glass with the ability to extend the TelePhoto Range. I don't see how the "improved glass" is accomplished without using 1/2" CCDs.

Am I asking for too much??? Perhaps, but I can't afford to spend $35,000.00 on an SPX800 ( as much as I would like to ). I need a better lens ... :cry:

[MikeFawcett]

Jarred, do you by chance have a stake in a US reseller? I'm outta here. This is not the kind of forum I thought it was.

[Isaac_Brody]

Mike. You didn't just win over any Canadian fans with that comment. If anything you've given Jan and the US even more business. You can't expect people to buy from you when you can't even match some of the great deals being offered in the US. And you can't expect someone to endorse you when they've had nothing but negative experiences.

You haven't given anything to this forum, and you can't expect people to give back to you. Jan has been great with answering questions and listening to our comments and feedback. You've complained that people don't purchase in Canada, you seem to think it's Jarred's fault because of that, but maybe you should be analyzing how you do business.

As an example, people order from Rush at EVS because he's helpful, prompt, and he has great deals for DVXuser. He's built up loyalty on this forum and he's been rewarded with our business. If you think attacking the creator of this forum will get people to order from Panasonic Canada, you're mistaken.

If you want to win producers in Canada I suggest watching Jan and Rush. Their personal contact and help in this forum is something you can learn from.

[bgundu]

Jarred, do you by chance have a stake in a US reseller? I'm outta here. This is not the kind of forum I thought it was.

Thats too bad Mike. It doesn't look too good that you're bailing out. I believe Jarred is only speaking about his personal experience. As a Canadian myself, I hope you stick around and by giving up your also sending the wrong message.

[Gary_McClurg]

Mike, all I can say is try and match what Jan is doing in the US.

And to be honest if you offered a better deal I'm sure a lot of people in the US might think about buying up north.

All I would have to do is call my BC cousins to pick it up for me.

[PlanetAloha]

Jarred, do you by chance have a stake in a US reseller? I'm outta here. This is not the kind of forum I thought it was.

What kind of forum were you expecting ... :laugh: ...

Hey Mike ... let me introduce you to something called capitalism ... The basic tenet works something like this ... Buyers tend to buy the best possible goods and services for the best possible price ...

Read the posts of many in this forum and you will discover that there are a lot of folks who are scraping just enough money together to buy a camera. They can't afford not to get the best possible deal ... Jarred is kind enough to help steer folks away from the less than honest types and help them locate the best possible outfits and deals ...

Get this ... Jarred does not owe you anything ... Nobody on this forum owes you anything ... Want to sell your product ??? Listen, Learn, come up with a plan, coordinate with your fellow sales and marketing reps in Canada ... Then start to implement ... Take your time ... I would set some reasonable goals along with a reasonable timeline ... Like maybe 1 year ... Don't try to "swing for the fences" straight off the bat ... try to win over folks a little at a time ... you may not be the man for the job ... Perhaps you don't have the right attitude to get it done or perhaps you don't have the patience and expect instant results ... I don't know ...

You can't just show up one day and expect instant results ... you have to win people over ... Nobody owes you anything ... got it? Great ... now go do something worthwhile with your life ...

Geesh ... give me a break ...

[reservoir]

HARUMPHH!! ~reservoir~

[Jarred Land]

Jarred, do you by chance have a stake in a US reseller? I'm outta here. This is not the kind of forum I thought it was.

That is funny... no.. EVS, who has a banner up top and has since day 1 of dvxuser, doesnt pay for that banner. They get that banner because they gave me the best presale support I ever had.

Sorry you got so upset, I offered to try and help you make it better but for some reason you didn't want to.

Forums are interesting places, because you really get to see the truth.. If you say something dumb enough people will call you on it.. same thing goes if you do something great... You see people here praising EVS and Panasonic USA for no other reason than fantastic support and a positive experience.

[earon_k]

Mike. You didn't just win over any Canadian fans with that comment. If anything you've given Jan and the US even more business. You can't expect people to buy from you when you can't even match some of the great deals being offered in the US. And you can't expect someone to endorse you when they've had nothing but negative experiences.

You haven't given anything to this forum, and you can't expect people to give back to you. Jan has been great with answering questions and listening to our comments and feedback. You've complained that people don't purchase in Canada, you seem to think it's Jarred's fault because of that, but maybe you should be analyzing how you do business.

As an example, people order from Rush at EVS because he's helpful, prompt, and he has great deals for DVXuser. He's built up loyalty on this forum and he's been rewarded with our business. If you think attacking the creator of this forum will get people to order from Panasonic Canada, you're mistaken.

If you want to win producers in Canada I suggest watching Jan and Rush. Their personal contact and help in this forum is something you can learn from.


I tend to agree. I realize also that the usa has a strong potential customer base by virtue of the large population. When I discovered Panasonic wasn't offering any package deals up here I decided to buy used (albeit from a fellow Canadian). If the locals in vancouver would have included Barry's book and thether stuff I would have jumped right in and bought from a local retailer. i'm tired of getting screwed by high prices on equipment. to counteract that i'd buy from the usa any day, especially if i get some value added in the form of advice, package deals, etc.
Panasonic should be somehow adjusting its pricing to fit the canadian economy and dollar value (maybe they are, i dunno). If i can get decent service i'll go south any day.

earon,
vancouver
(who's about to make a Britek lighting purchase from Tom at rostronics)

[Flintstone]

I'm currious about Canadians crossing the border for DVX, don't you get hit with customs duty tax on your way back? I mean, not only are you paying US taxes at purchase time, but you pay duty tax on you way back. Add to that the fact that the warranty is only valid in the US, and the exchange rate, travel expenses... do you really save that much? Is it really worth the trouble?

[Robert_Niemann]

This morning I woke up and thought about how to get the money for the new HD camera from Panasonic or JVC. And then I decided to sell my Arri Arriflex 16 SR standard 16 mm camera at eBay today. And now it is not mine anymore: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5761821720. What do You think: Was the price okay? And would You call it crazy to sell an Arri for a JVC/Panasonic? Well, just my opinion: Film has gone, video is coming... at least, I hope it.

[shAi]

Robert?!?! you got to be serious right?
that's sure a fine camera you sold here.. i appreciate the move, and understand, i must say.
though it make me kind of sad.. for a second or two...

[Robert_Niemann]

Well, because I am a student, I do not see it anymore to pay so much money in 16 mm raw footage, while You can get 60 minutes of DV for just a few cents. Of course, it was a hard step for me to sell the Arri, but it does not make sense to me any longer. Greetings from Berlin to Berlin, shAi.

[Shaw]

I think it was a good choice. I much prefer the digital workflow to that of traditional film. If you can get an HD camera for the same price, why not?

Now, I don't know enough about 16mm cameras to know whether the price was good or not.

[shAi]

the thing is with film cameras.. it's great to have them at home, but no use if you don't really asked to shoot film anymore, because the production wouldn't afford it.. it's like.... having a HDX100 and not affording a P2 card :)

[Dabong]

Or like having a Diablo and worry about gas...

[princigalli]

Some people keep bashing the Sony DVX and haven't even worked with it. I'm using it now and have been using it for months. It's working very well, producing excellent video and it's making money.

I'm glad Panasonic wants to come out with something better, and if they do it before the first mission to Mars is completed, it will be nice. I might even consider switching if their camera won't be as huge as a jumbo jet like JVC's new camera. That's also why I'd rather not see a removable lens but have a camera I can hold in one hand and pack in a handbag. Of course by the time Panasonic will come out with that camera (maybe in 2055) Sony will also have added products to their line, but I'm hoping Panasonic's commitment to Progressive Scan images will still be there so that I can switch.

[shAi]

and if they do it before the first mission to Mars is completed, it will be nice. Of course by the time Panasonic will come out with that camera (maybe in 2055) Sony will also have added products to their line, but I'm hoping Panasonic's commitment to Progressive Scan images will still be there so that I can switch.

:huh:
wtf?

you're complaining about people that keep bashing "the sony DVX" and then say this bullsh*t .. .. my oh my

[Gary_McClurg]

Plus Jan told you earlier that it was coming sooner after you posted it was coming in 2006.

So why all the late attacks?

And if you're going to knock something get the name right it'd make your argument at least work a little better.

[Neil Rowe]

..lolololol.. ok , had my laugh for the morning.. whats next?

[Isaac_Brody]

What's up with the repeated attacks? You made the same point here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=181105#post181105
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=181104#post181104
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=180082#post180082
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=180053#post180053
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=174888#post174888
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=173132#post173132
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=170934#post170934
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=163831#post163831

[Neil Rowe]

..I have question for ya Jan.

..i see that the new JVC apparently has an attachment point for rods built into the camera.. but anyway, even if thats not what it is. I know that a while back us crazy DVX'ers were shouting about putting retractable 15mm rods built into the camera like some film cameras. and my question is (regardless of whether or not some type of rod system is built into the HDX) if panasonic has considered or would consider manufacturing basic cine accessories for their cine line of equipment. i mean. if pany made a simple follow focus kit or a simple 2 stage rotating mattebox and flag and sidewing kit for the HDX/DVX/SDX ect. you could make them in mass quantity and sell them pretty inexpensively at the prices they should be at for ALOT of people to buy them with their cameras heck you could probably add 200.00 to the price and make a follow focus and rod kit a standard accessory. and if the HDX doesnt have rods.. pany could make a rod kit too. anyway, im just suggesting it, but im sure theres some reason why pany (through 3rd party manufacturer) doesnt already make the accessories? .. some sort of deal with the 3rd party vendors? ..i have no idea. all i know is that " if you build it, they will come..." and buy them.

am i left feild here? ...any insight for me on this?

[Terry_Lasater]

Some people keep bashing the Sony DVX and haven't even worked with it. I'm using it now and have been using it for months. It's working very well, producing excellent video and it's making money.

I'm glad Panasonic wants to come out with something better, and if they do it before the first mission to Mars is completed, it will be nice. I might even consider switching if their camera won't be as huge as a jumbo jet like JVC's new camera. That's also why I'd rather not see a removable lens but have a camera I can hold in one hand and pack in a handbag. Of course by the time Panasonic will come out with that camera (maybe in 2055) Sony will also have added products to their line, but I'm hoping Panasonic's commitment to Progressive Scan images will still be there so that I can switch.

Are you related to Lebroz?

[Terry_Lasater]

..I have question for ya Jan.

..i see that the new JVC apparently has an attachment point for rods built into the camera.. but anyway, even if thats not what it is. I know that a while back us crazy DVX'ers were shouting about putting retractable 15mm rods built into the camera like some film cameras. and my question is (regardless of whether or not some type of rod system is built into the HDX) if panasonic has considered or would consider manufacturing basic cine accessories for their cine line of equipment. i mean. if pany made a simple follow focus kit or a simple 2 stage rotating mattebox and flag and sidewing kit for the HDX/DVX/SDX ect. you could make them in mass quantity and sell them pretty inexpensively at the prices they should be at for ALOT of people to buy them with their cameras heck you could probably add 200.00 to the price and make a follow focus and rod kit a standard accessory. and if the HDX doesnt have rods.. pany could make a rod kit too. anyway, im just suggesting it, but im sure theres some reason why pany (through 3rd party manufacturer) doesnt already make the accessories? .. some sort of deal with the 3rd party vendors? ..i have no idea. all i know is that " if you build it, they will come..." and buy them.

am i left feild here? ...any insight for me on this?

That's a very good point, Neil.

[jnolla]

Some people keep bashing the Sony DVX and haven't even worked with it. I'm using it now and have been using it for months. It's working very well, producing excellent video and it's making money.

I'm glad Panasonic wants to come out with something better, and if they do it before the first mission to Mars is completed, it will be nice. I might even consider switching if their camera won't be as huge as a jumbo jet like JVC's new camera. That's also why I'd rather not see a removable lens but have a camera I can hold in one hand and pack in a handbag. Of course by the time Panasonic will come out with that camera (maybe in 2055) Sony will also have added products to their line, but I'm hoping Panasonic's commitment to Progressive Scan images will still be there so that I can switch.

Can someone please boot this guy off!

[Bart_Boge]

..I have question for ya Jan.

..i see that the new JVC apparently has an attachment point for rods built into the camera.. but anyway, even if thats not what it is. I know that a while back us crazy DVX'ers were shouting about putting retractable 15mm rods built into the camera like some film cameras. and my question is (regardless of whether or not some type of rod system is built into the HDX) if panasonic has considered or would consider manufacturing basic cine accessories for their cine line of equipment. i mean. if pany made a simple follow focus kit or a simple 2 stage rotating mattebox and flag and sidewing kit for the HDX/DVX/SDX ect. you could make them in mass quantity and sell them pretty inexpensively at the prices they should be at for ALOT of people to buy them with their cameras heck you could probably add 200.00 to the price and make a follow focus and rod kit a standard accessory. and if the HDX doesnt have rods.. pany could make a rod kit too. anyway, im just suggesting it, but im sure theres some reason why pany (through 3rd party manufacturer) doesnt already make the accessories? .. some sort of deal with the 3rd party vendors? ..i have no idea. all i know is that " if you build it, they will come..." and buy them.

am i left feild here? ...any insight for me on this?

Jan @ Panasonic,

Please, please, PLEASE have your design team look into adding such features as either a stock config or a reasonable "cine-package." The aftermarket companies that produce remote zooms/follow focus systems/rods/filter-holding matte boxes absolutely blindside DVX users with their prices.

Dont' get me wrong--I know they have to charge a lot because they compete with one another, have to design and fab the stuff from scratch for a very niche market, and recoup sizable investments. But if the "mothership" got involved, the economy of scale might work better in the favor of the end user price-wise.

Example: I ended up using the info from this forum to make my own 100'-long remote zoom (20k pot, miniplug, cable, plastic housing) for a grand total of $20--probably would have cost me $400-500 from a 3rd party provider. I could waste lots of time making my own rod system, follow focus, etc., but if your design group wanted to take a stab at making such items, I think that would be a HUGE selling point for the system.

Help us, Jan!

[PlanetAloha]

Some people keep bashing the Sony DVX and haven't even worked with it. I'm using it now and have been using it for months. It's working very well, producing excellent video and it's making money.

I'm glad Panasonic wants to come out with something better, and if they do it before the first mission to Mars is completed, it will be nice. I might even consider switching if their camera won't be as huge as a jumbo jet like JVC's new camera. That's also why I'd rather not see a removable lens but have a camera I can hold in one hand and pack in a handbag. Of course by the time Panasonic will come out with that camera (maybe in 2055) Sony will also have added products to their line, but I'm hoping Panasonic's commitment to Progressive Scan images will still be there so that I can switch.

Right on Dude ... :thumbsup: ...

You're looking to catch a ride on that Mars Mission aren't ya ... Wanna return home I'll bet ... Yep ... betcha wanna tell all your little green friends "Sony Rules Planet Earth" ... Betcha also wanna tell 'em the Earth's shaped like a Giant Burrito ... Yep ....

Right on Dude ... :thumbsup:

[Jan_Crittenden]

Hey guys,
The more you respond to his posts the more his message is repeated. By responding you give his post creedance and he feels validated. Ignore it and it becomes another post lost in the entrails.

Anyhow he is entitled to have his opinion. And it is only that an opinion.

Best regards,

Jan

[Barry_S]

Mods are not going to step in unless a user is becoming disruptive, offensive, or waaaaay off-topic. In a highly speculative forum (and thread) like this, you're going to see a few p*ssing matches. It's the nature of the beast. As Jan mentioned, don't take the bait if you don't want to encourage trolling. :happy:

[boo]

i like the idea of dvxuser.com giving away batteries if you are seen w/ a dvxuser t-shirt. jan, how's about making some pre-nab shirts w/ the hdx on 'em and giving away p2 cards to those who wear it? http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/images/icons/icon12.gif

[taubkin]

Yeah, and torture the poor souls looking at their useless P2 cards until the end of the year... :)

[Jarred Land]

they actually gave away p2 cards last year at NAB right in the booth... granted they where on keychains.. but it still was cool cause nobody really knew what the heck they where.