Image feel - not entirely satisfied

[Matthew Bennett]

Looking at Bloom's test (Lovely subjects, yes) I was a bit disappointed. I'm an enormous fan of the specs camera (waveform-f***ing incredible!!) and am first in line to purchase, but really holding out for something a bit more organic and finer looking from this sensor/compression codec combination.

Hope that the Panasonic engineers have a few tricks up their sleeves as far as how the image is rendered.

Little moire, reduced rolling shutter, decent dynamic range, decent highlight roll, check. Well done!

Overall feel - plasticky, globby, a big toe in the mud side of the codec. I was actually praying for the 'feel' to be almost identical to the EX3 which I think has a nice, finely grained, feathery texture which in certain situations, can be very pretty.

Not feeling the image yet. Praying for the production model to be a revelation in this area.

Everything else - incredibly well done!!

[Homunculus]

Looking at Bloom's test (Lovely subjects, yes) I was a bit disappointed. I'm an enormous fan of the specs camera (waveform-f***ing incredible!!) and am first in line to purchase, but really holding out for something a bit more organic and finer looking from this sensor/compression codec combination.

Hope that the Panasonic engineers have a few tricks up their sleeves as far as how the image is rendered.

Little moire, reduced rolling shutter, decent dynamic range, decent highlight roll, check. Well done!

Overall feel - plasticky, globby, a big toe in the mud side of the codec. I was actually praying for the 'feel' to be almost identical to the EX3 which I think has a nice, finely grained, feathery texture which in certain situations, can be very pretty.

Not feeling the image yet. Praying for the production model to be a revelation in this area.

Everything else - incredibly well done!!
i 100% agree with every single word you just wrote

[Homunculus]

in particular and i said this in another thread. I don't like the skin tones at all so far. In the crews.tv footage they were awesome but they also used zeiss ultra primes that probably cost in the neighborhood of 15,000 per lens.

in bloom's video the skin tones had that nasty orangish/purple compressed GH1 look to them and that has been my biggest source of disappointment thus far.

[Barry_Green]

Wait for an actual production model. The footage you've been seeing so far is not from a production model, and in fact I've been asked specifically to not post anything at all because it's not generating final-quality images yet.

That said, the images can be magnificent as-is.

[TimurCivan]

i 100% agree with every single word you just wrote


This shot has been compressed, decompressed, re compressed, then mushed into crap by vimeo. you can make absolutely NO judgments based off of it.

You cannot make ANY judgements about a camera based off of Vimeo footage. NONE. on vimeo, the 5dMKII looks almost as good as a RED. In real life this is not the case. The vimeo medium kind of smashes everything down to a certain level.


Its also a 70% functional camera. This is like asking a trainee at.... whatever, to perform, and then saying he'll never be good because he cant do everything perfectly yet. Its not done yet. Make no judgement off of works in progress. Thats setting yourselves up for disappointment.

:) I take a zen like approach. Its ready when its ready then i will form my opinions about the camera.

[Osslund]

I've used GH1 and I do expect AF101 to look very much alike. I also belive the sensor is not as good as the ones in 5D or 7D. There is a nice feeling when looking at 5D images and it's hard to touch it with other cameras.

At the same time images from the GH13 are way clearer than a 5D... So I have no doubt once you know how to set up the AF101 it will look great and very natural.

[DylanReeve]

People manage to make cameras perform differently for them too. While I loathed the PD150 in most of the cases I had to deal with it's footage, there were a few operators who just made it sing. There are practical limitations with the hardware and software involved in the camera, but there's more to it than just that - Bloom had barely got to know the camera... Once people get comfortable with it then I'm sure they'll get it looking great (especially when you consider the various image settings that are available) - and besides you can always grade your footage :)

[Mark Smith]

I take it as a sign of how far we have fallen that we make critical judgements about the imagery a camera makes by watching vimeo videos. Vimeo is a way to get an introduction to what a camera might be capable of but it in no way replaces a critical first person look at the camera.

I saw the prototype AF 100 making the rounds at trade shows a month ago and had some fiddle time with the camera and a decent monitor. The skin tones held up remarkably well at that point in time. I would think things might be a bit better by release version.

[Everts]

This shot has been compressed, decompressed, re compressed, then mushed into crap by vimeo. you can make absolutely NO judgments based off of it.

You cannot make ANY judgements about a camera based off of Vimeo footage. NONE. on vimeo, the 5dMKII looks almost as good as a RED. In real life this is not the case. The vimeo medium kind of smashes everything down to a certain level.


Its also a 70% functional camera. This is like asking a trainee at.... whatever, to perform, and then saying he'll never be good because he cant do everything perfectly yet. Its not done yet. Make no judgement off of works in progress. Thats setting yourselves up for disappointment.

:) I take a zen like approach. Its ready when its ready then i will form my opinions about the camera.


Sorry TImur I have to disagree with you the video has been posted to get some feedback form audiences.
And to tell you the truth it doesnt blow my HMC 150 and a colleague of mine his170 away !
DOF no contest .but I dont feel like its killing my 7d either .
As for the compression ..it doenst look like many artifacst has been introduced to the footage !

The best looking footage of this AF 100 is the one from the racetrack with Alfa Romeo so maybe operator error.Bloom mentioned that he wasnt really familiar with the panasonic menu system
So maybe we should wait until he is Japan !

Hay yah :)

[Homunculus]

dylanreeve good luck grading 8bit 4:2:0 LOL!

but seriously, I'm going to have to take your word for it Barry since you're the only one that knows everything about the cam, and honestly if I see at least ONE amazing image out of it then I know for a fact it is at least possible of reproducing that quality. So the fact that crews.tv model footage looked so mind bogglingly good is what drives my hope. But the fact that the other short with the guy with the flowers, looked atrocious kind of made me worry.
And keep in mind I think Bloom's footage on the whole looks pretty good and impressive, very clear and considering he openly said he put sharpness down to like -7 it still looks very clear and amazing in terms of the cityscapes and other stuff.
And the overcrank looks incredible, some of the shots SEEM to have really good dynamic range and look Red One-ish to me in particular the slow mo with long lens of crowd walking ...but it's the skin tones that look mushy and disgusting (and I dno't want to hear any british beauty jokes/disses either!). Even the crews.tv alfa romeo racing footage seemed top notch to me but as I said before let's be honest we're all gettin this puppy for narrative work, this means actors, characters, etc so we want good skin tones etc...but anyway I'll hush up now because I got Jan's brute squad breathing down my neck (Timur and Barry) j/k lol but seriously I do agree it's best to just wait but shoot it's hard to be patient with such a seminal camera, this isn't just another Canon 60d or even Gh2 (yawwwn.....) this thing could be a turning point, a game changer, and with that we're all antsy and excited at the possibilities. And unlike guys like Timur I don't happen to have my own Red One so I'm sure to him he couldn't care less if this cam bombs or not cus he already has something that's ten times better, probably same goes for even Barry who knows what kind of gear he's packing. For me and my little dinky GH1 this could be the FUTURE, my bread and butter, my one and only and it's the same for many others on here so excuse us if we're a little crazy over every little bit over here. I don't have the luxury of dismissing it and saying "Oh well...at least I still have my Red One". If this thing farts out I have nothing else to turn to and will have to 'turn to the dark side' and get a 5dmkii unfortunately as I can no longer stand the GH1's abysmal noise levels

[Osslund]

Using wide F4 lenses looses much of image pop even on the mighty 5D. So I would take these images with a pinch of salt.

[Barry_Green]

Homunculus -- take a deep breath. Breathe. :)

Now, don't get worried about anything, because -- what's the point in getting all worked up, when there's no physical way you could get your hands on one of these for over two months anyway? I guarantee you that you'll see the footage you want to see, before you have to put your dollars down. In the meantime, there's nothing you can do about it one way or the other... it's in the womb, it's gestating, and on December 27th we'll have to make some decisions. Until then, don't fret over anything.

Heck, dig around on vimeo and you'll find some absolutely atrocious, unwatchable Red footage. Does that make you nervous for the viability of the Red One? It doesn't make me nervous about it at all...

[NextWaveG]

Different people seem to have different expectations out of this camera. Some people want it to be an HPX370 with a large sensor. Some people want it to be the RED Scarlet's cousin. Some people want it to be a DSLR video camera. None of which really define the camera correctly.

[Homunculus]

Homunculus -- take a deep breath. Breathe. :)

Now, don't get worried about anything, because -- what's the point in getting all worked up, when there's no physical way you could get your hands on one of these for over two months anyway? I guarantee you that you'll see the footage you want to see, before you have to put your dollars down. In the meantime, there's nothing you can do about it one way or the other... it's in the womb, it's gestating, and on December 27th we'll have to make some decisions. Until then, don't fret over anything.

Heck, dig around on vimeo and you'll find some absolutely atrocious, unwatchable Red footage. Does that make you nervous for the viability of the Red One? It doesn't make me nervous about it at all...

yeah in fact I recently DP'd a short for a director on my GH1 and he shot a few months prior with another DP a short on Red One. My gh1 short looks much better and anyone I ask says the Red One short looks atrocious (it really does...no idea why, blown highlights everywhere, poor exposure..bad colors....) so I know it's all in the hands of the user as well.

But one thing you must rmember is that, one of the reasons for the antsyness is not that I can't wait til december 27, but the fact that if I wait til dec 27 to make the decision that means I may not have a camera until february or later and I plan to shoot a project in maybe january so I need this baby before then! Jan herself said if AF100 is not pre ordered there's good chance you won't see this thing for a few months. And I can only assume that pre-order slots will fill up eventually so sure I can wait until december for final production footage but then I may be Sh## Out of Luck. Which is why I've been beasting so much on trying to get to the bottom of the footage discrepancies in futile efforts to try to decide whether to pre-order or not.

[Homunculus]

show me impressive footage with AVCHD and Canon FD lenses or 14-140/20mm-pancake and I will pre-order right now while at the same time punting my GH1 through my window into the septic cess pool in my neighbor's yard.

[Barry_Green]

Okay, then think like an entrepreneur. Order it. Shoot with it. If you don't like it, put it on ebay and sell it for 95% of what you paid for it.

You said earlier that this is an all-or-nothing, once-in-a-lifetime chance. No it isn't. Don't stress like that. It's no big deal. Get it, if you don't like it, sell it on ebay. Or, make it available for rent (as an owner/operator) and ride they hype wave while they're in shortage. I made back the entire cost of my HVX200 kit (including all the stuff I bought for it, about $12,000 worth of stuff) with the first job I booked with it. Make a little money, and if you still don't want to keep it, sell it while there's a shortage and you'll come out of it just fine.

I bought an original Red One. It was a healthily-large investment in unproven technology; I was #364 in the world. I tried to suss it out for two months before I determined that it was, to me, unworkable. No Windows support to speak of, no sound recording, flaky, crashing all the time... the product I had, with build #13 on it, was not ready and I couldn't possibly put it to work. So I sold it, and banked a $9,000 profit on the deal. (Of course, the Red One of today, on build #30 or later, is an entirely different beast than what I had two and a half years ago!)

So don't sweat it. Try it, or make friends with someone who's going to make the leap, and rent it from them when you need it...

[Barry_Green]

show me impressive footage with AVCHD and Canon FD lenses or 14-140/20mm-pancake and I will pre-order right now while at the same time punting my GH1 through my window into the septic cess pool in my neighbor's yard.

I wouldn't show any footage from right now, because I've been asked not to and the camera isn't really delivering final recorded footage that is intended to stand up to scrutiny. But give me a couple of weeks and it'll be a whole different story. Get your punting shoes ready.

(and if your GH1 is hackable, don't punt it, sell it on ebay and put that money towards your AF100).

[Jan_Crittenden]

Here's what you do, find a dealer that is closer toyou and tell him your situation. Put a pre-order in with him and try it out whenit showsup. If it passes you buy it. If not then don't. Make these arrangements ahead of time. This may cost you a bitmore.

[Barry_Green]

Excellent suggestion. A local dealer should have a demo unit, so you get on the list, and if you decide to pass on the purchase, then he'll easily be able to sell it to the next person on the list, so -- no harm, no foul.

[Homunculus]

hmm good idea on the renting it out bit. I know somenoe that bought a Red when it was originally released and put it in a rental house for first few months and made back its entire price tag.

I wonder what AF100 will rent for when it's first out? Presumably similar quotes to what a HVX will generally rent for (no idea what that price might be). I don't even know what DSLR's like 5dmkii rent for as I never rented one. 150 a day for body...200? 85$? No idea.

I'll be honest though I do have some confidence this may be the one. The crews.tv footage couldn't have possibly been a fluke and I'm skeptical that lenses could make such a huge difference. The only 'difference' is that they had a professional crew of several people and as good as Bloom is he's just one guy lugging around a cam shooting random crap. That's not the style of filming I'll be doing. So with a crew of pros if I can get footage that approaches that crew TV footag then I am sold!

[Barry_Green]

When the HVX200 first came out, it was going for $450/day. Of course, when the Red One came out, folks were asking $1200/day, and now it's down to as little as $100/day for a starving owner/operator...

The market will determine what an AF100 goes for. Many places put the EX3 at $400/day, on down to maybe $300/day. AF100 should be comparable, I'd think.

But you don't want to be a rental house unless you're a real rental house. So don't represent yourself as such. Just go along as an owner/operator and you should probably be able to command some decent rates in the first few months, until market saturation hits.

[bgundu]

Hey, are you already back from vacation?



Here's what you do, find a dealer that is closer toyou and tell him your situation. Put a pre-order in with him and try it out whenit showsup. If it passes you buy it. If not then don't. Make these arrangements ahead of time. This may cost you a bitmore.

[mcgeedigital]

yeah in fact I recently DP'd a short for a director on my GH1 and he shot a few months prior with another DP a short on Red One. My gh1 short looks much better and anyone I ask says the Red One short looks atrocious (it really does...no idea why, blown highlights everywhere, poor exposure..bad colors....) so I know it's all in the hands of the user as well.

But one thing you must rmember is that, one of the reasons for the antsyness is not that I can't wait til december 27, but the fact that if I wait til dec 27 to make the decision that means I may not have a camera until february or later and I plan to shoot a project in maybe january so I need this baby before then! Jan herself said if AF100 is not pre ordered there's good chance you won't see this thing for a few months. And I can only assume that pre-order slots will fill up eventually so sure I can wait until december for final production footage but then I may be Sh## Out of Luck. Which is why I've been beasting so much on trying to get to the bottom of the footage discrepancies in futile efforts to try to decide whether to pre-order or not.

So put your pre-order money down with a retailer that won't ding you if you cancel your order after you've seen some footage and you don't like it.

Most will refund the $250 you put down now.

All this angst must be driving you to super-saver sized bottles of Maalox though.

ETA, Damn, Jan beat me to it form her vacation!

[Homunculus]

yes maalox has been my closest friend thanks to af100

[Petros Kolyvas]

When the HVX200 first came out, it was going for $450/day. Of course, when the Red One came out, folks were asking $1200/day, and now it's down to as little as $100/day for a starving owner/operator...

The market will determine what an AF100 goes for. Many places put the EX3 at $400/day, on down to maybe $300/day. AF100 should be comparable, I'd think.

But you don't want to be a rental house unless you're a real rental house. So don't represent yourself as such. Just go along as an owner/operator and you should probably be able to command some decent rates in the first few months, until market saturation hits.

HVX200s still rent for $300 day in "shoot-ready" form in my neck of the woods, kitted out with 3 batteries, 2 32G P2 Cards, P2 Store (why? no idea), cables, DV8 Tripod, Matte-Box, Monitor.

And you know what? I still rent 'em when I need them! While a long term rental relationship has lowered my rental cost - it doesn't mean the camera still isn't renting like hotcakes. There have been days I call (recently) where there are none available for shoots well in advance. No 200s, no 500s, nothing!

I can only imagine how well the AF-100 will do.

On the other hand people are scared of the AG-3DA1 (can we get a sub-forum for that puppy?) kit at the moment. I've pitched several projects with it already. No takers yet thought!

[Arnarfjodur]

I'm not an expert at scrutinizing different footage to understand characteristics of different recording tools. Looking at the comments here about the Crews footage, which seems to be more favored than the bloom footage I wonder:
- The Crews footage is of an attractive woman bathed in very soft light, shot under moderately relaxed conditions.
- The Bloom footage is him walking around in London, on a short autumn day, mostly testing how well the camera does in wide angle pans.

Both then go through a heavy vimeo recompression mashup. What are we acutally talking about when we say we don't like or "feel" either of the footage? How much does it have to do with the camera, really?

Also, how long until we get a plugin for FCP that can add moire and aliasing to our footage, so we can get that "dslr look" with our new cameras :)

[Everts]

you dont need plugin for aliasing just rotate the image slightly and it will introduce aliasing !

[dcloud]

the difference is the crew.tv didnt tweak the settings. they just shot it out of the box
Philip bloom however did some stuff like sharpness down to 7 and other stuff we dont know

[Joe Shaw]

Yeah - in one place he said he turned the sharpness down as he didn't know the camera and does that with all his cameras. But in another he says the camera was given to him with the sharpness already turned down. Don't know what's up with that. - However he does also say he will test different sharpness settings when he gets the camera again.

All of this is kind of arbitrary though. I'm not sure I understand the point of handing out pre-production cameras to people to shoot with, as you then have to rapidly follow along behind saying 'it's not a finished model'.

[Rolf Silber]

yes maalox has been my closest friend thanks to af100


If any camera drives you towards any meds even only virtually I recommend the following: Search for an old 35 mm manual crank camera - build in the 1910's or so (I highly recommend an old wood frame Ernemann) - load it slowly with black & white stock and start cranking a bit (hum the "Radetzky"-march while cranking, helps to keep the speed) ... this has a more soothing effect than any medication can give you.... and it reminds you that a camera is a camera is a camera is a camera .... and that all what was considered modern in it's time will be out of date in no time .... nothing more, nothing less.... and breathe...... ;-)

[dcloud]

ive forgotten the usuall settings for panasonic cameras anybody here could help remind me the best scene file settings for dynamic range? ive totally forgotten ever since i sold my hmc150

[Osslund]

When the HVX200 first came out, it was going for $450/day. Of course, when the Red One came out, folks were asking $1200/day, and now it's down to as little as $100/day for a starving owner/operator...

The market will determine what an AF100 goes for. Many places put the EX3 at $400/day, on down to maybe $300/day. AF100 should be comparable, I'd think.

But you don't want to be a rental house unless you're a real rental house. So don't represent yourself as such. Just go along as an owner/operator and you should probably be able to command some decent rates in the first few months, until market saturation hits.

I agree this camera will be popular and few AF cameras circulating so it will make some money the first months. It's really a no brainier to have a pre-order put.

[PaPa]

Just a quick question regarding image.

It has been quoted so far that the af100 delivers approximately 10.5 stops of lattitude. Do we know yet of that is the number when the camera is straight out of the box? After Cine-D or dynamic range stretch is activated?

[Jesse Brauning]

I don't think that anyone has yet done the necessary testing with a finished camera to determine DR with the AF100 in any mode.

[Dan_Kanes]

Feeding this camera through a truelight system into a Ki-Pro might yield some very pretty results.

I think everyone is expecting a Red One or Alexa for $5000.

That, my friends it ain't.

[PaPa]

I understand, my inquiry, more accurately is that Barry did some testing and came to a conclusion that the camera seemed to be approximately 10.5 stops, however I do not recall seeing if that claim was made with a standard setting, cinelike v, cinelike d, etc..

[Homunculus]

Feeding this camera through a truelight system into a Ki-Pro might yield some very pretty results.

I think everyone is expecting a Red One or Alexa for $5000.

That, my friends it ain't.


why not? Red one debuted 4 years ago at 17500 price point. why can't current technology come close to something that is 4 years old at a much lower price point? Moore's law guarantees that this is possible. After all, a computer that was 5000$ 4 years ago is less powerful than a 1000$ computer that is able to be purchased today so why can't a camera that is 5000$ today be just as powerful as one that cost 17000 4 years ago? Not much of a stretch when you think of it that way is it?

Now Red MX is another story.

[Dan_Kanes]

why not? Red one debuted 4 years ago at 17500 price point. why can't current technology come close to something that is 4 years old at a much lower price point? Moore's law guarantees that this is possible. After all, a computer that was 5000$ 4 years ago is less powerful than a 1000$ computer that is able to be purchased today so why can't a camera that is 5000$ today be just as powerful as one that cost 17000 4 years ago? Not much of a stretch when you think of it that way is it?

Now Red MX is another story.

You want to know why not?

Corporate politics. That is the answer. That is the only answer. The reason Red has been able to make any difference in the industry is that they are radically different. Some might even consider them crazy. Panasonic is not crazy. They aren't even radical. They do push more boundaries than any other video camera company - but they are far from radical. How are they supposed to sell an AF-500, or AF-3700 if the $5000 camera does everything. They readily admit that. The Red One was probably 5 or more years ahead of its time (with growing pains to match when it came out) Only now is everyone else even getting the concept.

Finally - Moore's Law. This relates to computing power. Cameras both are and are not computers.

I would propose Kanes' Law:

Every 3 years a Panasonic camera is introduced to market that changes the face of digital cinematography in the more commonly affordable "prosumer" market. It will not cost less than $3500 and not more than $6000. Other companies will slowly offer their versions, but it will be too late because other technologies will have come to light that thereby render the others obsolete - and despite other cameras higher technical specs, the price point will be $6000 or higher - and offer inferior or equal functionality to the panasonic equivalent. All will complain and fret over minute technical details. The cycle will continue.

[Homunculus]

good post mate. but let me just also say that to prove my point that if they wanted to they COULD easily release a camera at similar price point just as powerful as original Red One. How do I know this? Well because RED ITSELF is doing this. The scarlet that was supposed to be released 1 month from now is more powerful than original 17,500 Red One! And the Scarlet's intended price was about 6000-7000$ or so (I know it recently went up when they introduced HDR to it but ignore that for now). So the point is, Red itself has proven that they have technology at half the price that is more powerful than original Red One. So when people ask how I can possibly expect AF100 to be anywhere near Red One, well that's how because I know for a fact it's possible at that price point if someone truly wanted to do it, but as you suggest it would ruin their deliberate planned obsolescence sequence and things of that nature

[Homunculus]

i mean why does the lowest priced POS Kia car accelerate faster than many "Hot Rods" of the 60's. that's the whole point of innovatio, the human race continually creates better faster and greater performing things at lower price points as technology improves. so I don't see any reason why something as powerful as 5 year old technology can't be released at half the price that that technology 5 years ago cost....

[Barry_Green]

It has been quoted so far that the af100 delivers approximately 10.5 stops of lattitude. Do we know yet of that is the number when the camera is straight out of the box? After Cine-D or dynamic range stretch is activated?
I tested the very first earliest model on a $2500 AMBI backlit chart, and it delivered 10.5 stops. That was using cine-D. No DRS, as DRS is (IMO) not something you should use on every shot, it's something you should only use when you really need it (like gain; you don't use it unless you need it).

[Homunculus]

I tested the very first earliest model on a $2500 AMBI backlit chart, and it delivered 10.5 stops. That was using cine-D. No DRS, as DRS is (IMO) not something you should use on every shot, it's something you should only use when you really need it (like gain; you don't use it unless you need it).

how does DRS look though? Does it introduce a lot of noise or what? What if you shot the chart with DRS how many stops you think you can pull?

[Barry_Green]

so I don't see any reason why something as powerful as 5 year old technology can't be released at half the price that that technology 5 years ago cost....
A little perspective -- the Red One isn't 5 years old. The very first deliveries started about three years ago, but IMO that doesn't count. I got mine in February of 2008, and it was such a premature product, no other manufacturer would have released it, so I still don't even count that date (and to be fair to Red, they didn't consider it ready either, they told us all that we didn't have to take delivery yet, but they were available if we wanted them, and of course we all took them). I would say it took at least another six months before the Red One was worked out enough that it was actually something that could be considered a released product.

So that puts the Red One at really two years old, by the standards of anyone else.

And the reason Panasonic and Sony "can't" compete with Red? Not because Red is some super-powered mega-company from outer space, but because Red makes a totally different product. It's like saying that Toyota "can't" compete with the Hummer H1. Panasonic/Sony cameras have extremely sophisticated image processing in them. Red took all the processing out, and basically made a box with a sensor. They moved all the processing out of the camera, and stuck it in a computer. Clever idea, for a specific very narrow field (electronic cinematography). That's not what an HPX3700 or F950 are though.

It's not that the biggest broadcast companies in the world "can't" do what a small startup is doing. It's that they're not in the same market. If Red had sold a hundred thousand Reds, proving that there really was this massive highly profitable marketplace out there, then I can guarantee that you'd be seeing the big boys producing competing products. Already we're seeing Arri step up to that plate with the Alexa, and Sony is supposed to take the Red One head-on next April.

[PaPa]

yeah, i often keep the HTP on for the 7D and try to light so that my low's doing get crazy noisy. I'm curious to see the effect (positive and negative) that the DSR will have on the image. Would rather get the most information in camera and then adjust in post. But all within reason.

[Barry_Green]

how does DRS look though? Does it introduce a lot of noise or what? What if you shot the chart with DRS how many stops you think you can pull?
DRS is not about just pulling more stops, and it doesn't really do much on a chart. It's ... really complex. It basically breaks the entire image up into little tiny zones, and then uses its image processing to evaluate each zone and set exposure individually on that zone. It's like instead of having one aperture for the entire picture, you instead have an aperture for each pixel, almost. So it darkens bright areas and it gains up dark areas. And it depends on what level of DRS you set; there's DRS 1, DRS 2, and DRS 3. On the HPX170 I found that DRS 3 could add as much as +18dB of gain to the shadows. That makes them very noisy. But it only does it when it thinks it needs it, and it dynamically evaluates the scene continuously so it adapts to changing conditions.

It's not something I would normally use. I would light my scenes and use light to control the shadows and the highlights, instead of relying on a camera's automatic function to do that for me. What DRS is really good for is a situation where you can't control the light, like if you're shooting sports in an open stadium and part of the scene is in shadow, so you've got a blown-out sky and dark shadows. DRS helps rein in the sky, and then if the shadows are still too dark it'll gain up the shadows. Which is why I say, use it when you need it, but don't use it if you don't need it.

[Homunculus]

DRS sounds like a compressor/limiter in music production.

doesn't sound like something that should be used in the filmmaking side of AF100 at all. sounds like a videography tool when you're running and gunning and can't properly light your stuff

[PaPa]

I guess we will really only be able to tell in about 10 weeks.

[Barry_Green]

DRS sounds like a compressor/limiter in music production.
Probably, but only on certain areas of the picture. It's fascinating technology. It will leave your whole scene alone, but bring down the highlights in a blown-out window, for example.


doesn't sound like something that should be used in the filmmaking side of AF100 at all. sounds like a videography tool when you're running and gunning and can't properly light your stuff
That's the way I work with it, yes. If you're lighting your scenes, don't use DRS. If you're in an uncontrollable scenario, the DRS might save the shot.

[Steve Kahn]

Going back to the OP I have to say that other than a few minor issues I am extremely excited about this camera so much so that I not only have a deposit down on the AF100 but also on the Voigtlander as well! Exciting times!

[mcgeedigital]

Just got my Voightlander Nikon adapter yesterday.

Now if only Birger would let us know where the EOS adapter stands

[Barry_Green]

Just got my Voightlander Nikon adapter yesterday.
What do you think of it?


Now if only Birger would let us know where the EOS adapter stands
I posted their most recent update to me, in the Birger thread. No updates on time, but it sounds like they've been listening and may make exactly the product I've (and others have) been asking for.

[Ticheli]

Just received this mount and the Nikon lenses mount perfectly and the iris adjuster seems to work fine. Haven't tried it on a camera, because I don't have a 4/3 mini in the house, but it looks decently well made. I've ordered the PL adapter from the same company in Poland, but it's not arrived yet.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260678785289&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT#ht_3097wt_1141

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo

[mcgeedigital]

What do you think of it?




it is solid.

I am very impressed with the build quality and look forward to using my cinevised Nikon primes on it!

[Barry_Green]

Just received this mount and the Nikon lenses mount perfectly and the iris adjuster seems to work fine. Haven't tried it on a camera, because I don't have a 4/3 mini in the house, but it looks decently well made. I've ordered the PL adapter from the same company in Poland, but it's not arrived yet.

I got their PL adapter, the one with the support shoe... didn't realize they make the same unit without the shoe for $80 less. It seems pretty good, but I'm going to compare it to the HotRod to see what the differences are.

[alexdias]

Looking at Bloom's test (Lovely subjects, yes) I was a bit disappointed. I'm an enormous fan of the specs camera (waveform-f***ing incredible!!) and am first in line to purchase, but really holding out for something a bit more organic and finer looking from this sensor/compression codec combination.

Hope that the Panasonic engineers have a few tricks up their sleeves as far as how the image is rendered.

Little moire, reduced rolling shutter, decent dynamic range, decent highlight roll, check. Well done!

Overall feel - plasticky, globby, a big toe in the mud side of the codec. I was actually praying for the 'feel' to be almost identical to the EX3 which I think has a nice, finely grained, feathery texture which in certain situations, can be very pretty.

Not feeling the image yet. Praying for the production model to be a revelation in this area.

Everything else - incredibly well done!!

Dude! Chill out! It's a simple test done with no time with an unfinished model.
Let's wait and see, then we can start the technical bashing.

[danielc]

i also just got my voigtlander f mount from cameraquest. glad i listened to you barry, it is well worth the money for such an important piece. great build and the mount area is solid. my only negative but very minor thing about it, with such a solid build, the lens release lever is thin and flimsy. but thats picking now. this thing will last beyond the camera life for sure.

[ustein]

>Probably, but only on certain areas of the picture. It's fascinating technology. It will leave your whole scene alone, but bring down the highlights in a blown-out window, for example.

Panasonic offers this in their P&S cameras. I shoot many HDR photos in stills. This technique is called tone-mapping with local operators. "Local" because they try to optimize local contrast (unlike Curves). Doing great full automatic tone-mapping is not trivial in camera. Also opening up shadows will of course expose the noise.

That said more HDR in video will happen (see iPhone 4 :-) ).

[Erik Naso]

in particular and i said this in another thread. I don't like the skin tones at all so far. In the crews.tv footage they were awesome but they also used zeiss ultra primes that probably cost in the neighborhood of 15,000 per lens.

in bloom's video the skin tones had that nasty orangish/purple compressed GH1 look to them and that has been my biggest source of disappointment thus far.I believe Bloom mentioned that the pre-production camera had white balance issues that are being resolved.

[Barry_Green]

I believe Bloom mentioned that the pre-production camera had white balance issues that are being resolved.
Yes, there are lots of issues that are still being resolved. Which is, again, why nobody should have been posting footage in the first place. It's not ready for that.

[Matthew Bennett]

Hmmm.... It really seems like the imaging is a looong way from finalized on this camera - Barry, your comments make me feel that what we've been seeing is the result of a hastily thrown together device!

Really looking forward to the final production model! Barry, really though, how much better do think it will get? What tactile 'feel' qualities are in your ideal vision for this camera?

[agcohn]

Hmmm.... It really seems like the imaging is a looong way from finalized on this camera - Barry, your comments make me feel that what we've been seeing is the result of a hastily thrown together device!

Really looking forward to the final production model! Barry, really though, how much better do think it will get? What tactile 'feel' qualities are in your ideal vision for this camera?
I thought that the Alfa Romeo footage and Crews.TV footage looked really good.

I don't think that Philip Bloom was using appropriate scene settings for his shoot. He said that Detail / Sharpness was at -7 (lowest), which sounds like what you would do with a DSLR, but not with a Panasonic Video Camera.

With the DVX and HVX it's suggested to lower the Detail a little bit, but definitely not to -7.

[bgundu]

Actually he used -7 sharpness setting and cine gamma V. That certainly wouldn't have been my choice for settings.


I thought that the Alfa Romeo footage and Crews.TV footage looked really good.

I don't think that Philip Bloom was using appropriate scene settings for his shoot. He said that Detail / Sharpness was at zero, which sounds like what you would do with a DSLR, but not with a Panasonic Video Camera.

With the DVX and HVX it's suggested to lower the Detail a little bit, but definitely not to zero.

[vagarob]

crews.tv demo made me want to buy this camera. Philip blooms comments convinced me to do it. :D

I think mr.bloom can't come out and say this is the best camera EVER, get rid of DSLRs and buy this instead... because he knows canon most likely has something else around the corner, and he has a huge video dslr audience. He also didnt have much time to setup....for the price (i got it at $4800 cdn, which is like $4700 american) i cannot find anything better unless you jump way up in $$$.

[agcohn]

Actually he used -7 sharpness setting and cine gamma V. That certainly wouldn't have been my choice for settings.
Sorry, I meant zero as off, not default.

[Barry_Green]

Hmmm.... It really seems like the imaging is a looong way from finalized on this camera
Well, the unit Philip was using was 75% complete. I used that model. Panasonic specifically asked me to not post any footage from it. In fact, they've asked me to not post any footage from the newer 85% complete unit that I'm using now, too. It's not ready to be viewed, it is not ready to be pixel-peeped.

And that unit was from about six weeks ago, too, so keep that in mind.

Nobody should have been posting any footage at all yet. Other divisions apparently were not concerned about letting footage out, but some divisions (such as the USA) didn't want any footage out at all until the imaging chain had been finalized. For obvious reasons, of course.


Barry, your comments make me feel that what we've been seeing is the result of a hastily thrown together device!
No, what you're seeing is stuff you never should have seen in the first place, because it was too premature and was not ready for audience dissection.

Remember, this isn't Panasonic's first rodeo. They've been down this path many times before and they know exactly what they're doing. The internet has compressed everyone's expectations of time, and not in a good way. For comparison, let's go back to the HVX200 - a camera with a very similar development/release cycle. It was announced at NAB, the AF100 was announced at NAB. It was shown to the world first in September at IBC, and the AF100 was shown to the world first at IBC. It was shipped on December 29th, 2005; the AF100 is scheduled to ship Dec. 27th. So everything's the same, right?

I posted the first footage anywhere in the world from the HVX200. Do you remember when that footage was released? DECEMBER 8th. It's still October, and people are already trying to dissect footage from the AF100. It's not ready. The baby hasn't been born yet, and people are trying to examine the fetus, from ultrasound pictures. It's premature!

The HVX200 wasn't ready for us to shoot on until the last couple of days of November, and then I put together something and DVXUser scooped the world with the first released footage. And that footage wasn't released until December 8th. Five weeks from now.

So everything you've seen here is grossly premature, as compared to the HVX's release. But the time schedule is totally appropriate -- the AF100 is following the HVX's schedule fairly exactly. And I expect you'll see real, excellent, fabulous footage coming off the AF100 in late November/early December.

There's nothing out of line here, except people's expectations of how the timeline works. The timeline is working just like it did last time.

[dillont]

Matthew,

No disrespect - I'm a pixel peeper as well, but this camera IS NOT FINISHED YET. Making judgments on what you see is a bit premature. I'm holding off on any judging of the AF100 image quality until Panasonic says "It's done!".

Best regards,

Dillon

Edited to add: And Barry beat me to it.
PS: Barry, I'm so way super jealous of your opportunity to hang out with the Branson crew at Spaceport America. Wow, what a gig! Kudos!


Hmmm.... It really seems like the imaging is a looong way from finalized on this camera - Barry, your comments make me feel that what we've been seeing is the result of a hastily thrown together device!

Really looking forward to the final production model! Barry, really though, how much better do think it will get? What tactile 'feel' qualities are in your ideal vision for this camera?

[plasmasmp]

Nobody should have been posting any footage at all yet. Other divisions apparently were not concerned about letting footage out, but some divisions (such as the USA) didn't want any footage out at all until the imaging chain had been finalized. For obvious reasons, of course.


Makes sense since they are dealing with a whole different beast here. I think they should require an overlay on all internet posted footage that give the build date and estimated completion percentage of the camera. That way people aren't getting confused in three months when they start pixel peeping the camera.

My only question for the pre-production camera was if the new OLPF/downsampling method worked. As for the backend software controlling the picture going to cards and external connectors, I know Panasonic will deliver in the end. They always do.

[Noel Evans]

Well soon everyone will have their wish. Interbee is coming up in Japan - that will have the 100% working production camera. If you are at Interbee you will get to play with the production version.

http://www.inter-bee.com/en/

[Barry_Green]

Well soon everyone will have their wish. Interbee is coming up in Japan - that will have the 100% working production camera.
Where is it stated that they will have production versions there? That seems unlikely to me, as it's still six weeks prior to shipping. Maybe the hardware will be at 100%, but I wouldn't expect the software to be.

[Noel Evans]

Information supplied by two authorised panasonic dealers in Japan who were told same by Panasonic jp. Seems they would be aware of what's going on, but etc etc

[Barry_Green]

Interesting. Well, I hadn't heard that, and it seems way premature. Maybe somebody's using different terminology now, because Philip Bloom told people there'd be "production" versions at the VIP tour next month, and that just doesn't seem possible. Maybe the very first "PL" sample, which is a prototype hand-assembled from production components. But I sincerely doubt there will be serial-numbered production-line finished units at Interbee...

[Homunculus]

philip bloom also thought af100 has the gh1 sensor amongst other things. i think he's a tad too busy to stay informed of minutiae these days

[Multi-Media]

Hmmm.... It really seems like the imaging is a looong way from finalized on this camera - Barry, your comments make me feel that what we've been seeing is the result of a hastily thrown together device!

Really looking forward to the final production model! Barry, really though, how much better do think it will get? What tactile 'feel' qualities are in your ideal vision for this camera?

I had the opportunity this week to speak with an old friend who is a major HD engineer. He was at an HD conference in Colorado and coincidentally was hanging with the Panasonic engineers... Among other comments, he said that there will be a follow up series of firmware updates and that I should keep current. So as far as releasing a "hastily thrown together device"... I don't think Panasonic is going to hang everyone out to dry... But, at some point, you have to release something... Would you rather the Scarlett approach? "it's going to be great, but not for a while yet"... How long can that carry water? What would be really nice is to make the initial model "obsolescence proof" and have Panasonic offer a full price trade in on the "next" model... like Red did with the Epic. I don't expect that, but firmware updates are sure to come... think of Windows service packs... I'm glad they will be constantly working on making it better.

Personally, I have faith in Panasonic to deliver the goods... I put my money where my mouth is and I don't think I will be disappointed... they have a reputation to uphold and a track record to prove their performance.