JVC beating the "HDX100" at NAB? [Archive] - DVXuser.com -- The online community for filmmaking

mr._guiyotinne

03-07-2005, 05:43 PM

And what about the 1/3 lenses? I hope they don´t bluff it like Canon and make good ones with all the options. And a little one, like a 28mm so we can use it with the micro35...

Anyway 720p even if HDV it´s an improvement. And for the price; It may be a well competitor for the Pana thinking about 5000$ it´s a very good tag.

hummm!

I could bear the hdv thing with a nice firestore to avoid the drops if the P2 are so expensive and don´t give us the same option (i mean an external HD). I welcome JVCs cam in the competition. War for my money has started...

satellitebunny

03-08-2005, 12:29 AM

I'd bet on this ProHD being the 2/3" HDV that they showed last year at NAB.
You can see pictures of that NAB 2004 JVC camera here:
http://www.geocities.com/mammacow3/
You must scroll down to the middle of the page, there's some JVC stuff there.
And another picture from NAB 2004 is at: http://www.hdvinfo.net/
It's in the bottom of the front page.

And if it's that one, then it's going to be more like 20 000€.

But, it sure would be nice if your rumours would be true. Then again if it's only 19 or 25 Mbits/s then it's hardly an improvement. We'd need atleast 50 Mbits/s (my opinion as an owner of the HDR-FX1E). We'll see how it turns out.

Robert_Niemann

03-08-2005, 02:25 AM

Well, the rumours say, that it will be 19 Mbit/s in the first instance.

Barry_Green

03-08-2005, 03:51 AM

Okay, I'll officially say that I don't know anything at all about this "ProHD" camera, so this is *all* speculation.

But.

JVC developed a line of cameras and decks they called ProDV (er, it was called ProDV, wasn't it?) The DV500, DV5000, and a deck. Maybe they called it ProfessionalDV... anyway, it was identical to regular miniDV, but with better-engineered recording heads, etc (IIRC).

So, continuing in that vein, it's possible that ProHD would be the same thing to HDV as ProDV was to DV... i.e., the format is identical, but maybe better quality gear. So I would speculate that we're talking about regular 4:2:0 HDV here. However, they've long been speculated about that they could carry 24P within a 30p stream, in a similar way as to how the Panasonic VariCam can carry 24p (or, well, *any* "p") within a 60p stream. Same way Panasonic added 24p to the 60i-only DV spec. So it's possible that they will indeed be able to introduce a 24P HDV camera, even though HDV doesn't support 24p (confused?) ;)

1/3" bayonet lens... has there ever been a 1/3" bayonet lens mount? I don't think so, I think 1/2" is the smallest they've made, so if there truly is a 1/3" lens mount on this new camera, that would mean it wouldn't likely be compatible with any lenses other than new ones made specifically for it. Which defeats much of the benefit of having interchangeable lenses (i.e., having a choice, etc). Still, always better to have a feature than not to have it, right?

I've seen the teaser, and the lens mount looks awfully small, so maybe it is indeed a new 1/3" mount. Interesting development if true.

$5,000 price tag? That's the hard part to believe, as JVC has already announced plans for a $20,000 SDX-caliber HDV camera. And they've been rumored to be releasing a prosumer FX1-priced 3-CCD HDV as well. So this latest batch of rumors kind of combines both those cameras into one... sounds confused. Maybe there are two cameras, or maybe there's only this one?

Well, we'll find out in just six weeks!

Flintstone

03-08-2005, 06:00 AM

You are correct Barry, there is no such thing as 1/3" bayonet lens in the market today. Perhaps it can use Canon lenses or older stuff? Who knows? Also, from the picture on the flash site, I believe that what we are seeing is the 20K shoulder mount version that was shown last year (mock-up).

Here's a peak: http://pro.jvc.com/prof/Attributes/features.jsp?tree=&model_id=MDL101476&itempath=&feature_id=01

Chris_Hurd

03-08-2005, 09:58 AM

Hi Barry,

has there ever been a 1/3" bayonet lens mount? !

There sure has! Back in the late '90's, the old Panasonic AJ-D200, D210 and D215 DVCPro were all 1/3rd inch cameras with a bayonet lens mount. Canon and Fujinon offered a limited selection of 1/3rd inch lenses for this camera series.

I agree with you though; I seriously doubt this new JVC is 1/3rd inch.

Chris Hurd
San Marcos, TX

Robert_Niemann

03-09-2005, 02:47 AM

Well, some of You suggest, that the new JVC camera, we will see at NAB, is just the same, they had already presented last year. But then, why should they call it "A New Concept", and, by the way, the camera from NAB 2004 was not called "ProHD" either. So maybe, we will really see a new product. The competition does not sleep. They know like us, that Panasonic will come with an outstanding new camera called "HDX100" or whatever. So there has to be a reaction. The sooner the better.
By the way: Where have all the posts of Chris gone. Some day ago, he was at "Posts: 7000". Now ten? (And what about the smileys? At this point there should be one.)

Chris_Hurd

03-09-2005, 08:02 AM

Howdy from Texas,

Robert Niemann wrote...

<< Where have all the posts of Chris gone. Some day ago, he was at "Posts: 7000". Now ten? >>

Jarred must have installed a powerful new B.S. detector when he upgraded the forum software. It automatically filtered through my entire posting history, and left only the "Top Ten" posts I've made that it considers to be actually worth reading. I gotta admit, I need one of these things for my site!

;-)

Sorry about the double-post above, by the way. Must've been drunk at the time.

Chris Hurd
San Marcos, TX

evinsky

03-09-2005, 04:28 PM

You guys are aware that JVC and Panasonic are sister companies both owned by Matsushita, right. I doubt that either camera will endanger the other's sales. I'd bet the JVC is the XL1 of HDV. 1/3" or 1/2" either way it's most likely not going to support 24P despite the rumor. It will fit a very usefull place beating Canon to the interchangeable lens HDV market. And Fuji makes better glass anyway. My 2¢.

Robert_Niemann

03-09-2005, 04:43 PM

And my two cents: Two are more than one against the rest of the world.

Flintstone

03-09-2005, 06:01 PM

And my two cents: Two are more than one against the rest of the world.LOL

Robert_Niemann

03-10-2005, 02:20 AM

Okay, here are the specs of the new JVC GY-HD100U camera:

- Approx 5lbs
- Heavy Duty Magnesium Body
- Shoulder Mount Balanced Light Height Camera
- 3 - 1/3" 1.1 Mega pixel CCDs
- Interchangeable Lenses 1/3" - Stock options 16X and 13X Fuji
- Recording: TRUE 720 24P, 720 30P, 480i,480P (1080i Playback)
- DUAL MEDIA Mini DV Tape /Option (Hard Drive)
- Memory Stick
- Camera Presets
- Image Control - Including Cinema Gamma
- Motion Smoothing Filter
- Dual XLR
- Component Out/Composite Out/ Fire Wire I/O
- Flip Out LCD
- Enhanced Focus
- Monochrome Viewfinder
- Data 19Mps
- Shipping June 1, 2005
- List Price <$10K with Lens

The list price issue looks like a funny game between JVC and Panasonic: Who will be the first to anncounce the real price, so that the second can beat it?

Barry_Green

03-10-2005, 04:26 AM

Very interesting indeed! 720/24p with recording direct to hard disk... it'll be interesting to see how Panasonic's camera compares. 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0, 100 megabit discrete vs. 19-megabit longform GOP, but the JVC has a removable lens option... and does "monochrome viewfinder" mean a REAL viewfinder, a B&W CRT, and if so, is it a high-def-resolution CRT?

... and, where did these specs come from? Are they posted on a JVC site somewhere, or just rumor?

If it's true, Canon's got to be hating it -- someone will be beating them to the punch with a removable-lens option for HDV. And if it's true that there's a Fuji option, well, that means there might be a variety of lenses to choose from... very interesting indeed.

Can we get some JVC confirmation on this?

mr._guiyotinne

03-10-2005, 05:32 AM

it looks the viewfinder will be more like the Xl2 joke... I hope i´m mistaken and it´s the deal... Barry your writing looks you are excited like a child in christmas morning!

I hope Pana´s is better cos then it will mean an awesome machine, Sony being defeated at last, and the hell of the camera´s war!

Pana being 4:2:2 still have the point for me... And if my dreams come true with the specs i wish there will be hospitals full of indie filmakers hurted after avalanchs in shops and fights aroung little carboard boxes! It will look like clothes sales in big malls here, with women going nuts for a shirt and hitting each other with their handbags full of bricks!

mr._guiyotinne

03-10-2005, 05:35 AM

six weeks! long time for NAB! it´s getting forever!

And yes, my handbag is full of bricks and ready... ;D

Robert_Niemann

03-10-2005, 07:11 AM

What I have heard is that JVC gave the specs to some selected resellers. And then they have just launched a new website: http://www.prohd.net. It is like rbilsbor said: "NAB is heating up..."

Flintstone

03-10-2005, 07:30 AM

Funny! If one wants to register, one cannot be from the US or Canada. Seems the list excludes those 2 countries... and maybe more?

Perhaps I should put one of the common-wealth countries? Or perhaps one of those countries who's size is about the size of my back yard? :evil:

Robert_Niemann

03-10-2005, 08:36 AM

The prohd.net site is one by JVC Germany, so maybe they do not have the right to put out their feelers to the United States resp. Canada. For all You are living in America, please go to http://pro.jvc.com and click on the ProHD picture (below) to register.

Gary_McClurg

03-10-2005, 08:40 AM

Funny indeed. So does JVC really believe that by holding back the information from US and Canadian customers we won't hear about before NAB? This website goes all over the world. I'm sure someone will spill the beans if they get information from JVC before NAB so why not release the information to everyone. Unless they won't release the information until after NAB.

Gary_McClurg

03-10-2005, 08:42 AM

See, Robert just proved my point. He'll pass the information on to us.

April will be an exciting month. Hearing the information about the JVC still makes me believe that Panasonic is going to pull something magical out of the hat.

Zim

03-10-2005, 09:54 AM

They show a back lit picture on the JVC website of some camera. Jan can you put out a back lit picture of the HDX?

xander76

03-10-2005, 10:00 AM

... 4:2:2 vs. 4:2:0, 100 megabit discrete vs. 19-megabit longform GOP...

Not to nitpick, but if we're comparing 720p24 apples to 720p24 apples, the data rates should be 40Mbps discrete vs. 19Mbps longform GOP.

(And yes, I do know that the Varicam records 100 Mbps to tape at 720p24, but what's important in terms of image quality is how much unique data is written to tape.)

Edited to Add: I realized after I wrote this that we don't know how 24p will be written to HDV, given that 24p is not part of the HDV spec. Some would argue that we should reduce the effective data rate of 24p HDV to 24/30 of the total (as we do for 24p DV). With long-GOP MPEG2, though, JVC could just encode 6 extra junk frames per second in a 30 frame stream using almost no data whatsoever; the beauty of MPEG2 is that it takes almost no data to record a frame that is identical to the previous frame. Or JVC could use 720p25 HDV and add just one extra frame per second. However you slice it, I doubt the final data rate for 24p HDV will be much less than 19Mbps.

It does, however, raise the question of what NLEs will support 24p HDV.

Flintstone

03-10-2005, 01:31 PM

Makes you wonder how they could do it with a 3:2 or 3:2:2:3 pull down like the DVX with B and P frames. I guess it's doable, but it must be nightmarish on the NLE side. Or perhaps 24p if for DTE only?

abeljerrod

03-10-2005, 01:50 PM

... and, where did these specs come from? Are they posted on a JVC site somewhere, or just rumor?

Can we get some JVC confirmation on this?

I'm with Barry on this one. Did we ever find out where those specs came from?

(and we all know that Jan is the only product rep gutsy enough to take all the punches she gets by posting on here) ;-)

xander76

03-10-2005, 01:52 PM

2:3:3:2 pulldown would be heinous, especially since 720p HDV uses a GOP size of 6. Using Advanced Pulldown would mean that every 5th GOP would have an I-frame based on the useless C-frame in the pulldown. Ugly beyond ugly.

I have to believe that they will use 720p25 and just add in an extra frame each second (or less likely use 720p30 with 6 extra frames per second). Adding an extra frame with no new information incurs very low overhead in MPEG2 because of interframe compression, and the rest of the bandwidth can be used for the frames that have actual information.

Even if the JVC records 24p DTE, it's not clear to me that NLEs will be able to edit HDV at 24p. I suppose that once they can edit 25p/30p HDV, it shouldn't be a major technology leap. If the NLE makers haven't tested editing 24p HDV/MPEG2, though, it's likely to be buggy.

Robert_Niemann

03-10-2005, 02:03 PM

The lens issue gets more and more exciting. On the German JVC internet site they wrote: "Wechselojektiv mit manueller Fokus-, Zoom- und Blendeneinstellung" - "Interchangeable lens with manual focus, zoom and diaphragm settings". Cool, is it not?

mr._guiyotinne

03-10-2005, 02:58 PM

It´s the end of the world as we know it... Hehe... If this lens is correct then Sony is out AND Canon too (if they don´t answer soon with another camera or another lens as users are asking for the XL2)... ho ho ho... Interesting times indeed.

I think i´m gonna need some hibernation from here till NAB or i will have a heart attack!

xander76

03-10-2005, 06:41 PM

I just realized a glaring problem with the 24p pulldown ideas I wrote above. Both of them require the NLE to pull out frames in such a way that the resulting video has unevenly distributed GOPs. If you throw away 6 frames a second from a 720p30 stream, you're left with 4 GOPs of 5 frames and one GOP of 4 frames each second. If you throw away just one frame per second in 720p25, you have a similar problem, but it doesn't divide as easily. I'm not sure if MPEG2 video streams are allowed to have GOPs of varying length like that, but it seems highly suspicious to me. The NLE would also have to send the data through a decompression/compression cycle, which would be a quality hit.

So I thought of another way that the new JVC could record 24p HDV. Since 720p30 HDV is comprised of 5 6-frame GOPs per second, the new camera could just record black to the last GOP each second. The NLE would then throw this GOP away completely and use the 4 other 6-frame GOPs to make a 24p MPEG2. On the minus side, the I-frame in the the discarded GOP would be wasted. On the plus side, the camera might be able to put a minimal amount of information in the unused I-frame, freeing space for the GOPs that carry meaningful information. And assuming that HDV uses closed GOPs rather than open, the NLE could use camera original data from the other 4 GOPs without having to send it through a compression-decompression cycle.

Of course, JVC might also just decide to go completely off spec, create a real 24p HDV solution, and hope that NLEs and the HDV standard accept it. That strategy kind of worked for JVC with 720p30 HDV; who's to say they won't try it again?

Flintstone

03-10-2005, 06:58 PM

Slowing down the tape transport by 20%, record true 24p, get 20% more footage off the same tape... that sounds good to me. :thumbup:

xander76

03-10-2005, 07:14 PM

Slowing down the tape transport by 20%, record true 24p, get 20% more footage off the same tape... that sounds good to me. :thumbup:

That's another very interesting possibility. At first I thought, "so now we have to have new special VTRs that will run 20% slower? ugh." But then I realized that they could make it such that the tape looks like 720p30 HDV when played in a normal HDV VTR with the quirk that the action runs 25% fast. An NLE (or a JVC-constructed utility) could easily recalibrate the timing, though, and treat the 720p30 footage as if it were 24p. Problem solved.

At least for the picture, that is. Sound could be an issue, since you'd have to lower the sound sampling rate by 20% in what is already a sound-weak format.

A tweak that would be cooler IMHO, would be to run just 4% slower and record the 24p into a 720p25 stream on tape. That way, you get a higher bitrate (about 18.2 Mbps when slowed 4% versus about 15.2 Mbps when slowed 20%). You also don't have to muck with the sound sampling rate that much. I'm sure there's some reason not to do it this way, but it could be interesting.

satellitebunny

03-11-2005, 02:19 AM

Hmm, interesting developments. I'll have to take everything back, that I said earlier in this thread, about the new JVC propably being the 2/3" from NAB 2004.
It really seems that they are coming up with something good. Except for the 19 Mbits/s, that is. I just registered in prohd.net, but think I won't buy anything with 19 Mbits/s MPEG-2. Well, maybe I would, but I already have a 25 Mbits/s camera, and I am not that impressed with MPEG-2.
My only hope would be that you could record something with less compression on to the harddisks. But I doubt that will happen.

OPHERBA

03-11-2005, 02:30 AM

Robert_Niemann

03-11-2005, 02:51 AM

Chris Hurd has made a pre-release information about the forthcoming JVC GY-HD100 camera at http://www.hdvinfo.net/articles/jvcprohd/hd100teaser.php. The text is a good summary of all we "know" at this time. Thanks, Chris!

Barry_Green

03-11-2005, 03:01 AM

Interesting points regarding 24PA and potential incompatibility with long-form GOP compression.

Read on dvinfo where they're saying that the 24p mode on the JVC won't be any sort of HDV-compatible pulldown system, it'll instead be a new transport stream specification, one that actually records 24 distinct frames per second (no pulldown or conversion). That would make 24p recordings incompatible with HDV, but -- so what? You always have the choice, shoot HDV-compatible 30P, or proprietary 720/24P... don't know what this means for editing systems however, if editing systems will be able to recognize and work with the new JVC format or not. (or if this info is even accurate... I'm betting it is because it's Sean Dinwoodie of HSR who's reporting it, but I'm providing a disclaimer because this info is coming without any sort of direct confirmation from JVC press releases).

Barry_Green

03-11-2005, 03:13 AM

Also, regarding 19mbps... 19 megabits sounds like less than 25, but in reality you're getting a lot more bandwidth per pixel in 19mbps 720/30p than you are in 25mbps 1080/60i.

In HDV 1080i, you're getting 25 megabits to encode 30 frames of 1.5m pixels. In HDV 720/30p, you're getting 19 megabits to encode 30 frames of .9m pixels. So 1080i gets about 25% more bandwidth, but has to encode about 70% more pixels. The 19mbps is actually a more efficient/less lossy compression system, using a smaller GOP and more bits to encode less data. (Of course, the frames are a lot smaller too... and when you start talking about 60p, which is still encoded in the same 19mbps data stream, then the numbers take on different meanings).

satellitebunny

03-11-2005, 05:33 AM

Also, regarding 19mbps... 19 megabits sounds like less than 25, but in reality you're getting a lot more bandwidth per pixel in 19mbps 720/30p than you are in 25mbps 1080/60i.

That's propably true. But then again DV at 720X576 (PAL) at 25 Mbits/s has a lot more bandwidth per pixel, than either of the HDV formats. Ofcourse it's very difficult to compare interframe compression with intraframe compression, but you know what I mean. You'll just have to decide how many pixels you want, and at what compression.
I agree that 720p 25p HDV is propably more optimal than 1080i HDV compression wise.

And my point really is just that the 19 and 25 Mbits/s are just too little for an HD stream. It just doesn't feel HD compared to DV, if you only get the same datarate or less, and more compression. Despite of this complaining, I'm propably going to shoot hundreds of hours of HDV in the next ten years. And I'd rather be shooting something better.

Tzedekh

03-11-2005, 07:07 AM

princigalli

03-13-2005, 01:43 AM

Jarred Land

03-13-2005, 01:52 AM

Funny cause Panasonic jump kicked the whole 24p thing to start with.. it took everyone else 2 years just to catch up.. well,, kinda catch up.. so I bet they arn't taking chances, and the new P2 camera will prove to be a sucess. It helps that they had the 24p thing down, and have had a few years to get professional feedback on the P2 system (albiet SD).. so dont worry Princeigalli... you wont be waiting for too long.

Jan_Crittenden

03-13-2005, 06:18 AM

mobody is bashing the Panasonic. Just that they are so late, one can't keep thinking about them when talking about HDV. Sony is now, JVC is also now. Panasonic coming maybe in 2006? The average professional life span is not one century, it's a few decades at most. I will not spend 1/10th of my professional life waiting for Panasonic to bring a camera to the market.

Hi Princigalli,

What does, waiting 1/10th of your professional life mean? I don't get that statement. If we were saying 2006, and we are not we are saying 2005, we are talking one year, so you are saying that you are going to be working only ten years? Perhaps you are independently wealthy, I know I have been in this business for now 31 years.

If you are waiting for Panasonic to make an HDV camera because that is the level of performance you are happy with, then it may be 2006, but I am not even sure about that. See I think what professionals want is real 24P with no concessions, They was each frame's resolution to stand on its own, they want color correctable 4:2:2 in the native codec, they want uncompressed audio and the dependability of not having to worry about dropouts in the first or third playback.

I think that the JVC ProHD will be a higher bit rate which is why they are calling it ProHD and not ProHDV, although I don't know. SO that leaves the question that many should ask about the current level of support for HDV editing, did the NLE guys leave room in the edit plan for higher bit rates? And if it isn't a higher bit rate, it will be bit starved just like the single chip camera is. Additonally they have to get the algorithm to work with the 24P nature, make that work into a some form of a GOP. There is some serious work to be done, and with luck they have done their homework.

Anyhow, this does promise to be an interesting NAB. And the thing is Princigalli is that when we introduced the DVX100, we were not even in the roadmap for desireable cameras, and yet the DVX100 took the market by storm, because it was the right product. So you can choose anything, but I do believe that the P2 DVCPROHD product to be the superior solution for the independent producer, as it is not just a DVCPROHD product, it can go where you need it to go, underwater, on a crane, or on the steadicam and into the edit suite, all with products that are out there today.

This is what is wonderful about this industry, it is a democractic as it comes, and the winner is the one that has the best solutions.

Best,

Jan

comet48

03-13-2005, 08:36 AM

In my opinion JVC is the only company that by introducing a good product will not kill their own upper professional market because it is hardly exist (when was the last time anybody saw an ENG team running around with a JVC video camera)?
They can "afford" it when Sony and Pansonic simply can't.
What about that other small player. "Canon"

Digigenic

03-13-2005, 09:55 AM

Of course, even though Canon is committed to the HDV pact with JVC and the others, it will still be interesting to see what variation they implement for initiating their HD lineup.

Even with the obvious advantages of having a ridiculously large collection of lenses for every application, in house CMOS development and image processing units, they will still only push it so far. They aren’t going to completely alienate themselves from the others.

I think JVC caught wind of what Canon may have had up their sleeves, and is attempting to beat them to the punch. But then again, JVC could have made this move after discovering what Canon didn’t have up their sleeves, and they decided to immediately fill that segment knowing it would be void. Which one could then conclude that Canon is set to make a pretty bold move of their own :happy:

Tzedekh

03-13-2005, 01:01 PM

[T]he winner is the one that has the best solutions.
If that were only true. It seems that the winner is the one with the most influence. Sometimes it's Sony (many people are betting on 1080i winning out over 720p), sometimes it's Matsushita (remember VHS vs Betamax?).

Jan_Crittenden

03-13-2005, 01:11 PM

If that were only true. It seems that the winner is the one with the most influence. Sometimes it's Sony (many people are betting on 1080i winning out over 720p), sometimes it's Matsushita (remember VHS vs Betamax?).

The point of the argument here is the best solutions, and don't bet on the 1080 vs 720, they both will be a part of the HD game for a long time to come. I can prove an argument for either and an upconverst from 720P to 1080I looks equally as good out to broacast and and only the extremely discerning with compalin if it out to film. And if that happens the storyteller didn't do the job.

As far as the VHS vs Beta, there is a huge world of difference, one is a consumer decision, where the long run quality is based on the length of the recording and the other is a professional decison about how your work will hold up to the final delivery. This was VHS/Beta war an engineering question posed to consumers. They couldn't care less about the quality, only the quantity. I believe professionals are up a grade or two from there.

As far as a production format, I think that most in this forum should be very clear on what their choices are and why you make them, and what the ramifications are for making them. Choosing a format like VHS just because it is an easy long record, doesn't help you if the picture is difficult to work with, the color correction if only possibly in a different algorithm and the audio is challenged.

My .02,

Jan

Robert_Niemann

03-13-2005, 01:35 PM

Jan, provided that the HDX will not be shipping until late summer/early fall, what are Your und Panasonics plans to refrain the vendees of buying the new JVC, which will already ship on June 1st?

Jan_Crittenden

03-13-2005, 01:48 PM

Robert,

The folks that wish to buy into HDV or whatever ProHD is on June 1st will. However, I feel that if people understand the compromises that HDV brings to what they really want to do with it, then they will rent and wait. I can't make them wait and I can't deliver sooner.

I can only hope to educate people about the workflow in P2, the advantages of working in a tape free environs and the beauty of having a product that not only can do I frame only HD, but also Digi Beta quality and DV. If they choose to buy into HDV, what can I do? They will or they wont. I can only work to work with the factory and the engineering team to bring the best camera to the market and if should be, then it will make it sales targets. I can work to let people know the features and benefits of the camera itself.

I think it will become more of a question to those that do buy early and then once they see and fully understand the Panasonic solution, will wish they had not purchased. It really is not a question that has an answer is it? ;-)

Best regards,

Jan

bilgami

03-13-2005, 07:02 PM

Is there any pics of this jvc prhd yet.

Digigenic

03-13-2005, 07:32 PM

only teasers...
someone's already posted a link to the teaser image within this thread, I think it's a couple pages back...

bilgami

03-13-2005, 08:16 PM

The jvc hd pro is not a bad looking cam if thats what it will look like. i hope the pany ag-hddvx2000 will follow the same style of cam as far as looks go.

redindian

03-13-2005, 09:51 PM

Digigenic

03-14-2005, 05:39 AM

JVC isn't the only one with that advantage.
Canon also has a significant amount of space to not only innovate off of their current line of products, but also introduce an entirely new line without tearing into a preexisting line of HD or high end SD cameras.

However, Canon will only push the envelope so far.
Canon isn’t entrenched in the research and development war of media formats like Sony and Panasonic/JVC. This does have its benefits for the future, but for now, the development of their camera system is dependant on the dominant media format from one of these two companies.

As a result, Sony and Panasonic/JVC call the shots while Canon just kind of plays along…for now anyways.
If you look at Canon in the digital photography world, particularly the DSLR market, they take no prisoners; they are the leaders in that segment. As for video, they’re a little more reserved, but that’s exactly how one would have labeled them not long ago when Nikon was the leader in photography. Just something to think about.

Man, that’d be funny if Sharp came out of nowhere and blindsided everybody with the best solution. :grin:

Robert_Niemann

03-14-2005, 02:54 PM

The folks that wish to buy into HDV or whatever ProHD is on June 1st will. However, I feel that if people understand the compromises that HDV brings to what they really want to do with it, then they will rent and wait. I can't make them wait and I can't deliver sooner.

I can only hope to educate people about the workflow in P2, the advantages of working in a tape free environs and the beauty of having a product that not only can do I frame only HD, but also Digi Beta quality and DV. If they choose to buy into HDV, what can I do? They will or they wont. I can only work to work with the factory and the engineering team to bring the best camera to the market and if should be, then it will make it sales targets. I can work to let people know the features and benefits of the camera itself.

I think it will become more of a question to those that do buy early and then once they see and fully understand the Panasonic solution, will wish they had not purchased. It really is not a question that has an answer is it? ;-)

Okay Jan, You have convinced me. I will wait till NAB and then see, what JVC and Panasonic will offer me. And yes, if the new HDX will be better, of course I will wait and collect money. But I do not see it to pay more than 6.000 dollars/5.000 Euros, therefore I am hoping very much...

redindian

03-14-2005, 03:34 PM

However, Canon will only push the envelope so far.

Canon with its truckload of SLR lenses would be ideal to produce a 24p HD? cam with a interchangeble canon lens mount....!

Tho I am in other side of the fence (with truckload of wonderul Nikkors) I'd love to see what Canon has instore for NAB....

Erik Olson

03-14-2005, 04:14 PM

Are there really so many on this board who are going to jump into a 720p camera that retails between 5k and 10k?

Not that the value isn't there, but is the pricepoint such that people will just rent these cameras on project-based needs or do we all need these sitting in our coat closets between gigs? Don't forget that by the time you get a worthy mattebox, follow-focus et-cetera for this new rig, you're well into another $2.5k.

If you've got a regular broadcast gig, you're not going to use your personal camera. Yeah, lots of ASC guys and their operators own their own rigs (you can see their BLs for sale on eBay all the time), but rarely do they go out as an a-camera on a show.

I'm curious to know how you all intend to use this silver-bullet when it comes out.

:undecided

e

Digigenic

03-14-2005, 09:44 PM

I'm curious to know how you all intend to use this silver-bullet when it comes out.

e

To kill the wolf (sony) :cheesy:

Well, it’ll be at least 6 months after the camera is released and widely reviewed until a well informed decision can be made to purchase.
The problem is within that time frame; another more attractive camera is announced and/or becomes available… :undecided
And that’s why renting, as you’d suggested, would ultimately be a better decision.

With regard to the HDX though, how strange will it feel to rent the P2 media?
I think I'll feel kind of dirty :embarasse

Shaw

03-14-2005, 10:17 PM

Well, I think that a camera capable of recording in 720p with a 4:2:2 color space will last for a VERY long time. Longer than most cameras do as of now at least. I can easily see paying a higher price for that sort of quality and longevity.

Unix

03-14-2005, 11:36 PM

wasn't JVC the FIRST ONEs to put out a $3000 hd camera on the market?

Jan_Crittenden

03-15-2005, 04:04 AM

And that’s why renting, as you’d suggested, would ultimately be a better decision.
With regard to the HDX though, how strange will it feel to rent the P2 media?
I think I'll feel kind of dirty :embarasse

Are you serious? Would you feel that way if you walked into an internet cafe and used their computer for an hour.

Curious,

Jan

Digigenic

03-15-2005, 06:13 AM

Are you serious?

I was joking…sorry if I confused and/or offended in any way.
I thought while we were on the topic of rental, the prospect of media rental would liberate the thread into uncharted territory.
I personally think it’ll be pretty cool :thumbsup: , kind of risky, but still pretty cool.

Would you feel that way if you walked into an internet cafe and used their computer for an hour.

No, I wouldn’t feel dirty for using an internet café computer for an hour.
That’s just silly Jan.

Jan_Crittenden

03-15-2005, 06:51 AM

Digigenic said:I personally think it’ll be pretty cool :thumbsup: , kind of risky, but still pretty cool.

The risk is no more than renting the camera, and infact probably less risky. There is alot more that go wrong in camera rental than in a P2 card. It is a striped memory array.

>No, I wouldn’t feel dirty for using an internet café computer for an hour.
That’s just silly Jan.

That was my point, on the joke, if you wouldn't feel dirty in going into an internet cafe, renting a memory card shouldn't make you feel dirty either.

Best regards,

Jan

Neil Rowe

03-15-2005, 07:57 AM

Are there really so many on this board who are going to jump into a 720p camera that retails between 5k and 10k?
I'm curious to know how you all intend to use this silver-bullet when it comes out.

..well , i cant speak for anyone else. but i intend to own one. for those of use who work freelance or have our own production companies, its a dream come true. we can offer quality levels of DV, DVCPRO-50, or DVCPRO-HD. as well as 24p, 30p, and likely 60i. we can offer cinegamma, or video gamma. pretty much we have a camera that can tackle most jobs out there and please most clients out there. so we can supply the camera, and charge for its useage. or get the gig because we have the right equipment for the job.. all at a low cost and small form factor to suite many applications also the speed of delivery can be affected due to tapeless aquisition.

not to mention for the independent filmmakers..myself included. its a revolutionary type camera that gives us an HD DVX.. which is just killer. sure it wont make our movie better. but it might make our film be taken more seriously if its shot on HD vs mini DV. although it shouldnt be that way .. it is, to a formadable extent. you say mini DV and they say ...oh. you say HD and they say ....OK. and when your film is playing at some festival .. it will look sharper and more acceptable rather than have it distract from the film by being soft looking to some viewers.

all in all , its not really a studio camera.. its sort of a camera for independents.. whether that means independent producer or operator, or filmmaker. and i very much look forward to its arrival.

Jack_Felis

03-15-2005, 06:54 PM

Well, I don't know if the presence of 3CCDs eliminates this problem, but here goes. Will this camera have that horrid edge enhancement like the HD1 and HD10U? If so, then I'm not buying.

Otherwise, I don't know now. This camera seems like it could kick some serious arse if done right. Panasonic's looking pretty good too with the uninhibited DVCPRO format. I know Sony must be in a fit since it's the only one in the 1080i pool. I wonder what Canon's going to do now that interchangeable lenses and 24p aren't uncommon, what can they possibly bring to the table? A P2 recording-24p filming-25mbps HDV shooting-integrated hard drive sporting-DVCAM playing-interchangeable lense camera? =D Hah!

Still, I'll have to check both of these cameras out when NAB comes around next month, assuming both cameras are going to be shown there anyways. Any idea when they'll have conferences and stuff about these cameras?

lebroz

03-16-2005, 06:04 PM

truth is that the JVC/Pana will be close

mama matsushita has no ugly ducklings

Barry_Green

03-16-2005, 08:49 PM

Not that the value isn't there, but is the pricepoint such that people will just rent these cameras on project-based needs or do we all need these sitting in our coat closets between gigs? Don't forget that by the time you get a worthy mattebox, follow-focus et-cetera for this new rig, you're well into another $2.5k.
I'm sure there will be both types of customers, just as there are with the DVX and XL2 already. That's why I've been saying: if you need the camera for work, and you have work that will justify getting it, then get it. If you don't need it, why get it? If you only occasionally use it, renting is probably the better course -- I rented PD150's and VX2000's through 2001 and 2002 because I'd only use them infrequently.

There's a section of the market that would say they need it to learn on. And there's some truth to that, you certainly can't practice if you don't have a camera in your hands. And perhaps the $3400 of the DVX was low enough that they could justify doing that, but $6,000 to $10,000 for a learning cam? Seems high.

But, if you're in the business, these cameras don't take long to pay for themselves. I'm shooting a reality show the next three days, and the fee from it will more than pay for my DVX again (for about the 30th time, if I'm keeping track). If the P2 camera costs $6,000, then I guess I'll have to work six days with it for it to pay itself off. So if the work's there to justify it, obviously the choice is a no-brainer. Not like with a $70,000 camera and its $30,000 of accessories... that's a hard pill to swallow no matter what. But a $6000 camera can be justified quite easily, if you have the clients and the work.

I plan on having one the first day they're availalable.

Barry_Green

03-16-2005, 08:52 PM

mobody is bashing the Panasonic. Just that they are so late, one can't keep thinking about them when talking about HDV.
Prinicgalli, this isn't the first time you've said that Panasonic is "too late." I'm curious why you think so. I mean, the Z1's only been on the market for two months!

The PD150 was on the market for two years before the DVX came out, and the DVX beat it handily.

The Z1 will have maybe a six month lead time over the HDX. Considering that HD is still in its infancy, how can it possibly be imagined that Panasonic will be "too late"? Especially if you consider that the format Panasonic is using has been around for three years, one could say that HDV is "too late".

JVC had their 1-ccd high-def camera on the market for almost two years before the Z1 came out. Did that mean it was too late for Sony? I just don't see how someone could say that it's too late for Panasonic to come out with a DVCPRO-HD product...

princigalli

03-17-2005, 02:10 AM

I don't even take canon in consideration because no matter how good the cameras are, not everybody can afford to work with a camera that looks like a UFO. I hope you are all right about the Panasonic and it will be worth the wait. I also care deeply about progressive image, even if I don't care about 24fps. I would be happy with progressive 25fps. No matter what people say, progressive images always look better in my experience. In fact the first company that came out with progressive was Sony, but with a demential 12.5 fps. I don't know why Sony is always committed to delivering hald the goods they promise. Of course the DVX was a great introduction but it was also a lot of luck. Even Panasonic didn't know people care so much about progressive. And even they bring out crazy stuff like the ag 30 with fake progressive, even if I would love to see frame grabs from that camera. About the lenght of my professional life... I hope it's not just 10 years, but Sony FX-1 came out in 2004 and Panasonic will come out, maybe, some time in 2006. That's at least 2 years. It reminds me of Windows longhorn. That's why I got a Mac, I have an advanced operating system NOW. And now I'm working very well with the Sony. If I like the new panasonic, my sony will go to Ebay, but only if the improvements are such that it will be worth changing my workflow again. There are thousands of people that will settle with the Sony. The indi film makers should be happy with 60i because all the film transfer facilities work very well from 60i.

Jan_Crittenden

03-17-2005, 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by princigalli
but Sony FX-1 came out in 2004 and Panasonic will come out, maybe, some time in 2006. That's at least 2 years.

Princigalli, you make it sound as if the FX1 camera started to deliver at the beginning of 2004 , it only started to deliver in October of 2004. So to give it credit like it has been out a year in 2004 is a little ridiculous. And secondly, it is always the pictures that tell the story, and if you can get better pictures for the money, why not. The P2HD camera is not too late, but rather right on time. People would not be ready to move away from tape a year ago, but I sense a more positive environs today toward the idea, and perhaps this is the cause of such fine products as the Firestore and the reactions that we have had from our P2 customers.

Anyhow, just keep your hat on, make money with the cameras you have and you will see which camera is the one you should buy.

Best regards,

Jan

princigalli

03-17-2005, 09:09 AM

Well I like the idea of P2 cards a lot better than tapes. Tapes are very primitive. I don't know why everyone wsa complaining about tapes. If you need more time, just back up to hard disk. Having said that, if the Panasonic comes out in October 2006 (which I am sure it will) then it will be exactly 2 years later. Two years is a long time and I am already working happily with the FX1. At the moment it is the only camera that does native 16/9 (except Canon, but I don't work with cameras that look like UFOs). I film everything in HDV and downconvert to excellent and beautiful SD, or even better edit all in HDV and make DVD directly from there. If Panasnic camera will be nicer for me, I don't care I will switch. JVC is just too big and too expensive. If I have to spend $30000 I will spend $60000 and get a varicam. 30, 60, what's the big difference! But by the time Panasonic comes out, I will have plenty of nice 16/9 progressive looking SD footage that can easily be converted to HDV and will look great on film.

Jan_Crittenden

03-17-2005, 09:22 AM

Having said that, if the Panasonic comes out in October 2006 (which I am sure it will) then it will be exactly 2 years later.

This is where you are without a question totally wrong. It will be much sooner than this.

Best,

jan

Isaac_Brody

03-17-2005, 09:59 AM

Princigalli it sounds like you're having a case of buyers remorse. As Barry and other people have stated, these are only tools. When another tool comes along that fits your needs better, you can always switch.

Barry_Green

03-17-2005, 09:36 PM

That's what Princigalli just said -- if a better tool comes along, he'll be free to switch.

Actually I agree with his reasoning, just not his dates. If you have work to do now, don't sit around and wait for the next great thing to come along, get the tool and do the work. The only area where I take exception with his most recent post is the same place that Jan took exception with it -- it won't be October 2006! I'm betting on Oct. 10, 2005, three years to the day from when the DVX100 was first released.

Robert_Niemann

03-18-2005, 02:39 AM

I am very sure, that the new P2 camera still will be out this year, because Panasonic has gotten the big deal to provide the whole video technology for the forthcoming Olympic Winter Games in Turin. All will be filmed in HD and with P2. Imagine all the P2 cards Panasonic has to manufacture... PRICE DROPPING!!! Maybe, we will see Jan somewhere on the ski-run.

Jacques_Meov

03-20-2005, 09:27 AM

WOW, screw Hollywood features, the machination/justification on this board as people hash out CAMERAS THAT DO NOT EXIST is much better than any I've seen lately!
Here's a flash: YOU buy a camera because of whatever REASONS you have found. THEY buy one for their REASONS.
Trying to "convince" someone else that they're wrong on contemplating/purchasing 'the other' brand is quite hilarious; please, keep it up, you're free entertainment!

Tzedekh

03-20-2005, 05:15 PM

I wonder what Canon's going to do now that interchangeable lenses and 24p aren't uncommon, what can they possibly bring to the table?
Canon has always been slow and deliberate, and it didn't invent DV either, but it did produce a very popular, high-end prosumer SD camcorder. What could it bring to the table? How about the following?

1. Three half-inch, 2-Mpixel CCDs (or CMOS chips)
2. 1080p24 at 4:2:2 and >50 Mbps
3. Half-inch lens mount
4. Tape, hard-drive, and solid-state storage
5. Price: <$6,000 with lens

Canon may not be the first, but it could be the best at the best price. But it probably won't -- it seems to lack the will to compete in this high-features:price-ratio arena, even though, like JVC, it has no high-end offering to "protect."

DanielH

03-20-2005, 09:27 PM

Any chance of hearing from Canon at NAB in April?

Barry_Green

03-20-2005, 09:31 PM

Oh, I'm sure Canon will announce something at NAB; I'm predicting it'll be an HDV GL3.

As far as what else they can bring to the table, I think Tzedekh is on to something with the idea of half-inch (or, dare I say, 2/3") CCDs. Canon isn't, after all, really a camcorder company, they're a lens company. If they made a killer 2/3" or 1/2" camera that could take industry-standard lenses (i.e., the ones Canon already sells) then it could maybe serve as a nice platform for them to move some more lenses!

As far as them doing 1080p/24 at 4:2:2 and at a higher bitrate, I don't think there's a chance on earth that would happen. That would involve creating a new format, and I don't think Canon has any interest in doing that. JVC may innovate it, JVC's wildly innovative, but I really don't expect Canon to do anything like that. I don't see them extending/going beyond the HDV specification when they haven't even produced their first HDV-compliant product yet. But, hey, they may very well surprise us!

Tzedekh

03-21-2005, 07:25 AM

As far as them doing 1080p/24 at 4:2:2 and at a higher bitrate, I don't think there's a chance on earth that would happen. That would involve creating a new format, and I don't think Canon has any interest in doing that. JVC may innovate it, JVC's wildly innovative, but I really don't expect Canon to do anything like that. I don't see them extending/going beyond the HDV specification when they haven't even produced their first HDV-compliant product yet. But, hey, they may very well surprise us!
I agree that they probably wouldn't do 1080p24, and I as much said so. But the question was, what could they bring to the table? The scuttlebutt is that JVC will do a higher-data-rate model in 2006, and Panasonic will do the same this year. The HDV spec itself appears to be a subset of the MPEG-2 profiles and levels spec, which supports higher rates. And as far 1080p24 goes, that would probably be inserted into a 1080i60 signal.

This is a long-winded way of saying that Canon will have to offer a viable combination of price, features, and performance if it hopes to compete in the HDV/prosumer HD market. JVC and Panasonic are offering 24p and non-tape-based storage; JVC, removable lenses; and Panasonic, higher color sampling
data and rate. Both cameras are rumored to cost less than $10,000. So you may be right -- Canon may try to compete, at least initially, on price, with an HDV GL3 at less than $3,000. If the camera also supports 24p, well, all the better.

Barry_Green

03-21-2005, 12:51 PM

Now why didn't I think of that -- a GL3/HDV with 24p! Canon could smack a serious home run, or at least a good solid triple, with a camera like that! Certainly would give the FX1 a run for its money. And they already know 24p now... *verrrry* interesting! They promoted the GL2 endlessly as a "filmmakers" camera, held tours and training all across the country, took out magazine ads... it makes sense...

... I wonder if they'll do it? I haven't heard a single rumor from any source, so if they do, it'll be a total shocker, which is exactly what they need.

Okay, that does it, Canon goes on my list of one-of-the-first-booths-to-visit, just to see if they've done it!

Tzedekh

03-21-2005, 06:13 PM

... I wonder if they'll do it?
If they do, it will indeed be shocking! I don't expect any HDV model from Canon until at least 2006. I hope I'm wrong.

lebroz

03-21-2005, 08:43 PM

I don't even take canon in consideration because no matter how good the cameras are, not everybody can afford to work with a camera that looks like a UFO.

if i was working with canon...

xm3/gl3 could be a bad azz mofo(canon huge underdog so they dont talk trash and hype bullcrap like sony/samsung pana/jvc cause frankly they can litterally lose millions with saying things where the big boys can do a lot and not screw themselves, canon is the fighter with heart dont get it twisted do you see a pana or sony with removeable lens for under $5000? say what you want canon is gamleing with a market where they are not the most welcome but slowly gaining ground and therefore must be respected by sony/pana

be careful what you say, canon should be applauded they are a huge underdog they lost a lot of money on r&d with xl series for the same users that use the dvx(funny aint it)

if i was at canon...

GL3 with 1/3 ccd no tape drive just a canon branded 40 gb 2.5inch laptop harddisk for $2500 street and $2999 retail with sd resolution(yeah baby crappy sd with cut off bars this is after all a GL3, then 6 months later XL3 announcement... 2 months later XL3 widescreen with 80gb harddrisk release for $4999

sad a canon rep might never see this but jan can =)

jan take me before another corporation scoops me up =-)~

scharky

03-21-2005, 11:19 PM

if i was working with canon...

xm3/gl3 could be a bad azz mofo(canon huge underdog so they dont talk trash and hype bullcrap like sony/samsung pana/jvc cause frankly they can litterally lose millions with saying things where the big boys can do a lot and not screw themselves, canon is the fighter with heart dont get it twisted do you see a pana or sony with removeable lens for under $5000? say what you want canon is gamleing with a market where they are not the most welcome but slowly gaining ground and therefore must be respected by sony/pana

be careful what you say, canon should be applauded they are a huge underdog they lost a lot of money on r&d with xl series for the same users that use the dvx(funny aint it)

What the hell are you talking about?
Canon an underdog? I doubt that.
I'm glad to see that you have ideas, but how do you assume the list price would reflect everything that you have added into the camera?
And why do you think they should release another SD XL2 with 16:9, just so it could have a hard drive?

MattC

03-22-2005, 08:59 AM

David Jimerson

03-22-2005, 11:01 AM

if i was working with canon...

xm3/gl3 could be a bad azz mofo(canon huge underdog so they dont talk trash and hype bullcrap like sony/samsung pana/jvc cause frankly they can litterally lose millions with saying things where the big boys can do a lot and not screw themselves, canon is the fighter with heart dont get it twisted do you see a pana or sony with removeable lens for under $5000? say what you want canon is gamleing with a market where they are not the most welcome but slowly gaining ground and therefore must be respected by sony/pana

be careful what you say, canon should be applauded they are a huge underdog they lost a lot of money on r&d with xl series for the same users that use the dvx(funny aint it)

if i was at canon...

GL3 with 1/3 ccd no tape drive just a canon branded 40 gb 2.5inch laptop harddisk for $2500 street and $2999 retail with sd resolution(yeah baby crappy sd with cut off bars this is after all a GL3, then 6 months later XL3 announcement... 2 months later XL3 widescreen with 80gb harddrisk release for $4999

CERTAINLY. Because it’s . . . just that easy.

reservoir

03-22-2005, 11:10 AM

if i was working with canon...

xm3/gl3 could be a bad azz mofo(canon huge underdog so they dont talk trash and hype bullcrap like sony/samsung pana/jvc cause frankly they can litterally lose millions with saying things where the big boys can do a lot and not screw themselves, canon is the fighter with heart dont get it twisted do you see a pana or sony with removeable lens for under $5000? say what you want canon is gamleing with a market where they are not the most welcome but slowly gaining ground and therefore must be respected by sony/pana

be careful what you say, canon should be applauded they are a huge underdog they lost a lot of money on r&d with xl series for the same users that use the dvx(funny aint it)

if i was at canon...

GL3 with 1/3 ccd no tape drive just a canon branded 40 gb 2.5inch laptop harddisk for $2500 street and $2999 retail with sd resolution(yeah baby crappy sd with cut off bars this is after all a GL3, then 6 months later XL3 announcement... 2 months later XL3 widescreen with 80gb harddrisk release for $4999

I didn't understand any of this. Lebroz bro'....use some punctuation. Add a few more periods and commas. It's hard to read and understand what you are saying sometimes. But like everyone else, I think Canon with have some sort of a rebuttal at NAB whether it be HDV or not. They most likely won't go silent while their competitors are showboating their new products. ~reservoir~

Jaime Valles

03-22-2005, 03:52 PM

Just a thought, someone said that Canon has no high-end line to protect, but is that true? I know they don't have a professional line of their own to protect, but they make their money making lenses for other companies professional cameras. Is their a possibility that they are protecting THOSE cameras so as not to infringe on their lens business? Just a question, I really have no idea.

Well, I don't think they'd care which camera you use their lenses on, as long as you're buying their lenses. Might as well buy one of their lenses attached to one of their high-end prosumer cameras, right?

On topic: The JVC and HDX have not come out yet, and the FX1, Z1, XL2 and DVX are out right now. That said, I think Canon is really falling behind with HD. In a few months, Panasonic, Sony and JVC will all have their flagship prosumer cameras delivering some sort of HD. Canon will have... 24p? So do the HDX and JVC ProHD. Interchangeable lenses? So does the JVC. Native widescreen? HDX, FX1, Z1 and JVC. I just don't see who would buy the XL2 at this point, other than someone that already has accessories for the XL1. I'm not bashing the XL2; I think it's a great camera that can produce outstanding images. And I know there will always be "something better" coming up. But The XL2 seems decidedly behind the times now that all others seem to be going the HD/SD switchable route.

I think the JVC will take away business from the XL2, not from the HDX, or even FX1 or Z1. The JVC seems ideal for long form recording to tape with HDV in 720p. I see this as a winner in event videography (where size does matter) as well as documentary work where you'll be shooting for months on end in the middle of nowhere. The FX1/Z1 do the same as the JVC, except in 1080i, and with a fixed lens (who changes lenses while shooting a wedding?) so it becomes a matter of personal preference on interlace vs progressive, and camera size.

The HDX looks like the ideal indie filmmaker camera, where real DVCproHD and 4:2:2 color should do wonders for film-out and blue-screen FX work, combined with a P2/hard disk workflow to eliminate capturing and logging. If the lens handles as good as the one on the DVX (hopefully even better) then this should become the ultimate low-budget film camera.

Therefore, I don't think the JVC is beating the HDX at NAB. I think they'll both have their strenghts, and it'll be up to us to determine which serves our purposes better. I think the one getting a beating in NAB is going to be Canon. Unless they intro something completely unexpected (like a GL3 with HDV at $1999) I think they're gonna have a not-so-good-in-sales year.

lebroz

03-22-2005, 04:09 PM

yes canon is an underdog...

you think you would see a $4000-$6000 removable lens jvc 3ccd without canon? idiot...

it has more to do with japans wealth and companys than us...

matsushita/sony are close closer than amd/intel but they need eachother all is reletive.

canon is via, they are a real underdog, you never heard of via? they make motherboard chipsets, audio codecs and little pc motherboards based out of taiwan... canon makes lenses... via cannot manufacture cpu's or gpu's(intel/amd nvidia/ati) canon makes lil lenses(yea a lot) but they dont make lcd's or ccd's they outsource buying from matsushita/sony and others so YES canon is the lil underdog that is doing great amazing things. canon has turned a lens and camera company into a electronics giant in reletively short time(10-30 years) clap for canon they deserve it, oh and canons customer service is GREAT, had a prob with printer, they are quick and have offices in U.S. i feel bad, i havnt purchased a camera product from them nope not one camera/camcorder i like pana/jvc for price performance. so far so good

David Jimerson

03-22-2005, 04:15 PM

yes canon is an underdog...

you think you would see a $4000-$6000 removable lens jvc 3ccd without canon? idiot...

OK, first, watch the namecalling.

Second, don't call names in a post where you disprove your own statement. If JVC was reacting to the XL2, that makes Canon a contender, a trendsetter, a mover and shaker, not an underdog.

lebroz

03-22-2005, 04:43 PM

check marketshare and total company net worth...

canon...

then matsushita(panasonic jvc hitachi technics & many many more) all of them and just canon, this is a trick that has been used to take over electronics markets, they all use price fixing and a lot of dirty things...

sony is in on it too (samsung, aiwa and many more)samsung is sony's new freind, check out the camcorder lines you will see obvious similarities, sony plasma tv's dvd players dont be surprised to find a samsung twin(i'd like to see a samsung PS3 that would be cool)

car analogy

GMC(go to gmc.com, you will see how many brands the are a whole lot) now with cars this backfired companys like acura/honda lexus/toyota gained huge maret share early on because of quality/service(things are starting to even out, toyota/honda have been bad for last 3-6 years) same thing is going on here..

canon is at a stage where they are trying to gain real market share and respect... they got respect =-) now they still have got nowhere close to sony/matsushita you say they are ? you hafta be an idiot

they really are amazing at what they did and are doing...

camera/lens company outa japan transforming into Canon an electronics company to be reccon with(but they really are not close to it) exactly... no high end $20000+ equipment

the rules of war and power apply, you cannon let a little nation become a power house over night, they are playing the game and taking the cards dealt by sony/matsushita. canon is very close with lens production tech for both companys(zeis leica is marketing)

most canon products incorporate sony/matsushita ccd's and electronics... digital cameras/ camcorders (although canon has started making some nice cdd tech and patents in the last 10 years

canon is the baby of the bunch and has been geting bigga and betta eating good

i'd like to see a U.S. company compete but japan has the electronics industry under wraps with chicken breast with romain lettace and organic tomato

reservoir

03-22-2005, 06:09 PM

^

This dood is making the rounds tonight!! ~reservoir~

lebroz

03-22-2005, 06:37 PM

res you hounding me like a dog...

every post followed shortly by you...

roof roof, nice though i know sum1 here that will undastand my p.o.v.

reservoir

03-22-2005, 07:34 PM

I've got your back man. I do understand *ALOT* of your points of view. We disagree on some of course...but what would an internet forum be if all 5000 members told each other how great the next guy's opinions and ideas are. We have to agree to disagree sometime. I just like the conversation. I really don't mean to hound anyone. ~reservoir~

Barry_Green

03-22-2005, 08:39 PM

I think the JVC will take away business from the XL2, not from the HDX, or even FX1 or Z1. The JVC seems ideal for long form recording to tape with HDV in 720p. I see this as a winner in event videography (where size does matter)
Actually, now that you bring this up, I think this is a fairly significant, if not fatal, drawback to using the JVC in those circumstances -- it can't shoot a "video"-looking image. Because it only runs at 24p and 30p (assuming that the info that's been released is, so far, accurate and complete) then that's a real problem.

Much as many/most of us prefer the 24p look, I think we'd all acknowledge that it's not ideal for all circumstances. Probably 75% of what I shoot is 24p, but that means there's still 25% that's 60i. Convention coverage, event coverage, it's all always done at 60i because that's what people want, that's what they expect, that's what feels "right". 720p doesn't provide for 60i, but it can get that same look (and better) from 60p.

If the JVC can only do 24p and 30p to tape, that's a big boo-boo on their part. I sincerely hope, for their sake, that they include 60p... (the HDV spec provides for 60p, even though no HDV camera has implemented that yet). If not, I think that leaves the field wide open for people to prefer the HDX (assuming it does 60p... Jan, are you reading this? It needs 60p!) or for the Z1/FX1.

Terry_Lasater

03-23-2005, 10:02 AM

Neil Rowe

03-23-2005, 10:13 AM

"..idiot's" whats up with this? :huh:... :angry: ... :lipsrseal

Nick Adams

03-23-2005, 02:46 PM

Terry,

"I got a fever. [pause] And the only pre-scrition. [pause] is more COW-bell"

I know it's been said a dozen times before but your avatar will never get old :thumbsup:

princigalli

03-27-2005, 12:05 PM

Barry Green, you understand exactly what I mean, and I really hope you are right about When the new Panasonic comes out. If that's the case, and if Panasonic will keep up with their excellent tradition, my Sony will be on Ebay and I will be in for the new system. My nees are very simple and only concern me: I need progressive footage, I need sharp high quality images for SD DVD, but high resolution to extract high definition frames. For now the Sony gives me hi res frames. Of course my other conditions for switching to Panasonic is decent pricing and regular looks. I don't want something elephant sized like the JVC or some star trek enemy ship looking Canon. I have enough problems with the Sonx DVX because when I film I don't want people to look at the camera. I really would like something smaller and more conservative looking (without the HDV lights presently on the Sony).

scharky

03-27-2005, 12:16 PM

Wow, did Lebroz call me an idiot?
I just love your manner of thinking. You keep pushing points and then dissproving them yourself. Good work bro.:huh:

greatscot

03-29-2005, 02:38 PM

has anyone seen the press release? i have it in my inbox, but don't know how to send a file to this forum (sorry, newbie here). here's the first paragraph text :

JVC has announced the world’s first professional, affordable high-definition camcorder with true 24p capture and recording. The GY-HD100U employs the full resolution ProHD format.

The GY-HD100U utilizes three newly developed 1/3in. CCD image sensors, each one featuring an array of 1280x720 pixels (approximately 1 megapixel), with micro lenses. In addition, the GY-HD100U provides realtime playback in all major DTV formats, allowing easy conversion of recorded data to other formats without compromising quality.

“This year at NAB, JVC is fulfilling its promise to deliver affordable high-definition products to the professional market,” said Robert Mueller, executive vice president for JVC. “The launch of the GY-HD100U brings professional broadcasters a cost-effective, full resolution progressive camcorder unlike any other broadcast camera in its price range.”

The GY-HD100U is ideal for documentary and news programs, as well as electronic cinematography. The camcorder enables recordings to be transferred to 35mm film with full HD fidelity, without frame rate conversion. Utilizing a user selectable motion filter, this system is designed especially to provide smooth motion at low (24fps and 30fps) frame rates. The GY-HD100U is also designed to deliver spectacular quality SD recordings for those not ready to fully transition to HD.
The camera includes a standard detachable 16x Servo Fujinon lens. Other available lens options include a 13x (3.5mm) wide zoom lens, a wide-angle converter for the standard 16x lens, and an adapter allowing standard 1/2in. lenses to be used on the camera. A patented “focus assist” function exaggerates detail in the viewfinder to facilitate focusing.
A variety of features on this camera make the recording, editing, and archiving process simple. Its MPEG-2 based ProHD recording system records high-definition images on inexpensive MiniDV cassettes. In addition, the GY-HD100U can connect directly to an external hard disc recorder, allowing footage to be edited immediately by eliminating time-consuming transfers.
The GY-HD100U has two XLR audio inputs and records CD-quality digital audio with independent level controls for each channel. The camcorder also features a variety of customizable settings that can be stored on an SD memory card, and loaded into another GY-HD100U when needed."

Flintstone

03-29-2005, 06:42 PM

Déjà Vu? :huh:

Mediacre

04-05-2005, 06:27 AM

Honestly, I think the JVC will be a more useful camera than the Panasonic. The JVC records more frame rates, has a real lens and outputs uncompressed 24,25,50,60 progressive HD. The only real advantage on he Panasonic is 1080 24p DVCPRO-HD over HDV, but is it also better than uncompressed HD? I doubt it.

thisiswells

04-05-2005, 06:09 PM

I'll leave the discussion alone about which being a more useful camera, but I don't see any mention of the JVC capturing 60 frames per second at 720p.

Currently the only camera (outside of box cameras and experimental cameras that go directly do disc... I'm talking about tape-based field aquisition tools) that records 60 frames per second is the Varicam, another fine Panasonic product.

What frame rates does the JVC record? What what I understand, the HDV format does not support 60 frames per second aquisition. Please advise.

brian wells

EDIT: I am aware of the Ikegami EDITCAM that does 120 frames per second. Primarily talking about cameras within my price range, of which so far it appears the HVX200 is the only camera to offer 30-60fps aquisition.

Mediacre

04-05-2005, 06:36 PM

I have done extensive research on all available data on the HD100. It seems it does both 60 and 50fps at 720p, but not to tape. In a quik google search I found some info.

" The GY-HD100’s HDTV recording format is selected from 720p/25, 720p/24 and 720p/30 and the 625 PAL recording format from 576i/50 and 576p/25 in either 4:3 or 16:9. From the progressive 720p native recording, the on-board converter provides in real time a further array of signal types from which to choose. These signals are not only delivered in realtime but also free from artefacts. In high definition they are 1080i/50, 1080i/60, 720p/60 & 720p/50 and in standard definition 625 PAL they are 576i/50 in either 4:3 or 16:9."

here's the link for the whole article:

http://www.dvuser.co.uk/Main%20pages/what's%20new%20pages/GY-HD100.html

They are talking about the PAL version which apparently will record NTSC frame rates also. It also says it will cost under 6,000 euros, which is around 7,700 dollars. It seem it might be cheaper than the panasonic too.

thisiswells

04-05-2005, 07:09 PM

cool. i guess you just can't record it on-camera. i can live with that. it is really cool news to me you can output 60p to hard drive or other recording system. i did not know the jvc would do that.

thanks,
brian wells

mr._guiyotinne

04-05-2005, 07:36 PM

Mediacre i was looking around the page you point and they look quite new. I don´t know if they must be trusted, i guess we will know after NAB, but as you say it´s written that the JVC GY-HD100 cam will be under £4,200, like, said Six thousand Euros.

But going around the page (what´s new section, at the end of it) they have another article about the HVX, just looks like random comments from users but they say the AG-HVX200 will be just around £3000. Looks cheaper to me. Again we will have to wait till NAB to get an aproximate price (i hope...)

Anyway, it´s not war between them; they look for different target buyers. Probably what makes the JVC expensive is the lens, and the tape heads. I would buy it if i was interested in shape more than anything else. Then, we still don´t know the Panas quality lens. We may have a surprise too. We just know it will be fixed.

Then we have the comments about the recording formats. Hummm. Makes it interesting with the hard disk option. Just let´s wait till NAB, hear the real facts and then let the argue begin...