What is best?

[Zim]

From the camcorder info:

Officials from Panasonic stated that they had no comment on the leak. It is unclear if the camcorder will record in the HDV format which Sony's current HD prosumer camcorders use. The HDV format has been endorsed by Sony, Canon, JVC and Sharp as a prosumer and consumer high definition video format, though Panasonic is absent from the group.

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This doesn't really say that Pannasonic won't use the HDV format. But if it's endorsed by the other four why does Panny think the other is better and will that limited the options if Panasonic goes with the other HD format?

[Loki]

I have one word for ya...

Interframe compression..


ok that was two words... but I am not a fan of HDV at all I think it is a terrible format... considering MPEG2 was never designed to be compressed on the fly in realtime... *HDV has a low bitrate... and heavy compression.. plus frame dependent compression...

DVCPROHD uses Intraframe compression.. each frame is compressed on it's own and doesn't depend on any other frame to re-create the image.. this makes editing simple.

With HDV you have to worry about cutting on an I-Frame... or the footage has to be converted to an Intraframe compression to edit without having to create new I-Frames... which means etiher, harder editing, or a second layer of compression on already highly compressed footage.

I think anyone serious about pro-sumer level HD will be all over Panasonic.

I'll take DVCPROHD over HDV anyday.

[Zoomforce]

word Loki.. plus HDV if you get one drop you loose half a second.. not one frame.

[Zim]

If you edit like I do you need simple editting!! Your selling me on the idea.

[Barry_Green]

Which is best? *Hands-down, by far, no question, DVCPRO-HD is a much better format than HDV.

I have an article in this month's Studio magazine that outlines the differences between the two, but I'll sum it up like this (which only adds to Loki's excellent response):

In 1080i, HDV is 25-megabit data. *DVCPRO-HD is 4 times the bandwidth, at 100 megabits. *In 720p, HDV is 19-megabits, DVCPRO-HD is 5 times the bandwidth, at 100 megabits.

HDV samples color using 4:2:0. *DVCPRO-HD provides twice the color sampling, at 4:2:2, which provides better imagery and *much* superior chroma keying capability.

HDV uses MPEG-2 in picture groups of 15 frames. *This means you get variable-resolution imagery depending on what's happening in the frame, how much detail is in the shot, whether the camera's moving, etc. *If you had a very high-detail panning shot that happens to end on an I-frame, and then you locked into a stationary shot, MPEG-2 won't necessarily have enough "bit bandwidth" to resolve the new shot, so your footage would look low-res and "out of focus" for up to half a second. *Whereas with DVCPRO-HD, each and every frame is encoded separately and completely (I-frame compression) so every frame will always look "right", will always be at full resolution, and you'll never have any half-second weirdness going on.

HDV uses two channels of compressed audio, compressed by a factor of 4:1. *DVCPRO-HD uses EIGHT channels of UNCOMPRESSED audio, a huge advantage over HDV.

DVCPRO-HD has been out for over three years now. *HDV is brand-new. *DVCPRO-HD is natively supported by editing programs today, fully. *Avid Express HD and Final Cut Pro-HD both use DVCPRO-HD as their native editing format. *None of the major editors support HDV as a capture-edit-print-back-to-tape solution yet.

DVCPRO-HD can be used just like DV in editing, as a firewire preview from the timeline type of system. *HDV could never do that, you won't see firewire previews from the timeline using HDV. *It's a limitation of the GOP-based MPEG-2 compression.

Does HDV have any advantages over DVCPRO-HD? *Well, a few, yes. *First, it uses higher luma sampling: in 1080i, HDV records in a luma grid of 1440x1080, whereas DVCPRO-HD records about 10% fewer pixels, at 1280x1080. *And in 720p mode, HDV records 1280x720, whereas DVCPRO-HD records 960x720. *This is a lot less of an advantage than you'd think though, because DVCPRO-HD is recording twice as much color information, so overall the DVCPRO-HD pictures will look a lot more detailed than HDV pictures will. *So as far as the pixel grid goes, the DVCPRO-HD format is recording fewer pixels in 4-5 times as much bandwidth, so compression artifacts should be *extremely* much less than on HDV. *So HDV can brag about having a bigger overall pixel array, but as to which will look better? *Can't answer definitively until I test the formats side-by-side, but I'd bet heavily on DVCPRO-HD.

Second, HDV can be recorded on $4 miniDV tape. I don't know that DVCPRO-HD can, but we'll see. Third, HDV data takes up 1/4 the space on a hard disk as compared to DVCPRO-HD data.

But Panasonic has never publicly ruled out HDV. *They just haven't ever joined the coalition. *It is my personal opinion that Panasonic doesn't see HDV as a professional format (because it isn't). *I think they would be embarrassed to release an HDV camera to the professional market, and why should they? *They've got three years of marketing DVCPRO-HD to pros, news stations, broadcasters, etc... they have a full line of equipment from a $6,000 (estimated) small camcorder to a $65,000 VariCam, plus decks and editing equipment, etc... HDV requires a new investment in all new hardware, whereas DVCPRO-HD already has a lot of infrastructure.

So here's where it gets funny -- what if Panasonic was to introduce BOTH? *What if this new camera they're introducing records DVCPRO-HD to P2 memory cards, but records HDV onto the tape drive? *Would that be the cat's meow or what? *I don't know why I thought of this, but it'd be kind of like the DVX vs. PD170... you could buy a PD170, or you could get a DVX, which does basically everything the PD170 does, PLUS 24p. *So you could buy a Z1, or you could buy an "HDX" which (if they add HDV to it too) would then do everything the Z1 does, PLUS 24p and DVCPRO-HD... man, that would totally be a knockout blow.

But, that's wild rampant speculation and rumor-mongering on my part. *I know nothing about any Panasonic HDV plans. *I don't expect that the new camera would have HDV, or they would have mentioned it. *But it would be just too funny if it did.

I fully expect that if HDV meets with any sort of wide adoption in the consumer marketplace (i.e., $399 HDV cameras at Best Buy or Circuit City) then Panasonic will play in that game. *Why wouldn't they? *But I really don't ever expect to see a $399 DVCPRO-HD camcorder, and I don't expect home users to go investing in DVCPRO-HD gear. *That seems targeted towards professionals/prosumers.

[Shaw]

Word Barry! :D

[Zim]

I don't know much about DVCPro but what does it shoot. 60i, 24p. I keep seeing DVCPro 50. Then I guess you can do any in HD.

[Zoomforce]

Jesus what would we do without you Barry.. you should write a book or something ;)

Seriously though, you are totally right.. I love your idea of the HDV on tape and DHD onto cards... well I dont know if I love it but its an interesting idea.. But hey, maybe it wont be Minidv tape.. maybe it will be the small DVCpro-HD tape.. who knows....

[Barry_Green]

I don't know much about DVCPro but what does it shoot. 60i, 24p. I keep seeing DVCPro 50. Then I guess you can do any in HD.
DVCPRO is the name Panasonic has assigned to its recording format. It comes in three varieties: DVCPRO-25 (which is bit-for-bit compatible with DV and miniDV, 4:1:1 color sampling, and runs at 25 megabits per second); DVCPRO-50 (which is 50 megabits per second, 4:2:2 color sampling, and rivals Digital Betacam for picture quality), and DVCPRO-100 aka DVCPRO-HD (which is 4:2:2, 100 megabits, and supports high-definition recording at either 720/60p or 1080/60i).

None of this has any relevance to what frame rates can be shot. For example, in DV, Panasonic supports frame rates of 4, 6, 8, 12, 15, 24, and 30 progressive frames per second, and also 60 interlaced fields per second. They support the same frame rates in DVCPRO-50. But on the VariCam, in DVCPRO-HD, they support practically any frame rate from 4 to 60 full progressive frames per second.

However, that's not really a function of the recording format, as the recording format only ever records 60 progressive frames (just like in DV, which only ever records 60 interlaced fields). The different frame rates are dictated by the CCD scanning rate and the processing computers in the cameras. So we have no idea what frame rates the new DVCPRO-HD camera will support, other than what Jan confirmed, which is that it will have 24p.

[Barry_Green]

That would rule the world, if it had a mini DVCPRO-HD tape drive in it. I hope I hope I hope... :)

[Zoomforce]

yes it would... even though the tapes are bloody expensive I wouldnt care...

[J.R. Hudson]

Barry

That was one of those posts that just say "Wow" Thanks for that very detailed breakdown; I had to read it twice and sure will be referring to it again!

[Isaac_Brody]

DVCPRO-HD can be used just like DV in editing, as a firewire preview from the timeline type of system. HDV could never do that, you won't see firewire previews from the timeline using HDV. It's a limitation of the GOP-based MPEG-2 compression.

Wow. I didn't realize that. With the 15 frame dropout, compressed audio, and no 24P, I don't understand what the clamor is with HDV. Everything seems to suggest that it's more trouble than it's worth.

Here's hoping this DVCPRO-HD camera puts an end to the confusion and the gross compromises of HDV.

[Barry_Green]

The clamor over HDV is that it's high-definition, and it's here now. I can certainly understand why people would get excited over the prospect. I do, however, think that those that sink money into the format are perhaps taking a very shortsighted view of things. I mean, if Panasonic had not already announced they'd be making a DVCPRO-HD camera competitive with the Sony models, then one could be justified in thinking that HDV is the best they'd ever get in their price range. And from that perspective, high-definition resolution at a $3300 price point is indeed something to get excited about, whether it's got problems or not.

However, we now know that HDV is *not* as good as it's going to get. There is another format, one that's been established in the marketplace for over three years... one that already works today in editing stations, one that doesn't suffer from any of the issues that compromise HDV. (however, it may have issues of its own, we won't know until we have it in our hands). And, to be fair, we don't know what features Panasonic will or won't include in this new camera, nor what the actual price is. If it truly IS $10,000 for just the camera, then I can see where a lot of people would still buy an FX1, especially those shooting reality shows where the interlaced look would be an asset rather than a detriment.

But man... if Panasonic brings out a mini-SDX900 (because according to Jan's post, it *will* support DVCPRO-50! I mean, that's Digital Betacam caliber recording!) and it also happens to have high-def... I think there'll be a LOT of Z1s and FX1s on ebay the day this is released.

I dunno, the more I think about it, the more exciting this thing gets. The DVCPRO50 thing hit me totally unsuspecting, and that is just the greatest thing, because it gives you a genuine, legitimate improvement in SD quality, which you can put to work TODAY. Improvements that will show on your DVDs and on your broadcasts. And then, on top of that, it'll have 24p for filmlike work... and because it's 24p, it means it won't suffer the resolution degradation that the FX1/Z1 go through to "simulate" progressive scan, so you'll have nice sharp pictures in filmlike cadence and high definition... and if you are shooting for broadcast or DVD release, you'll have a DigiBeta-caliber recording mechanism at your disposal too...

... this is looking really promising. But, like I always say, it's all speculation until we see the actual announcement.

[J.R. Hudson]

Man their gonna announce something IM gonna want >:(

(Me repeating my Mantra: John, you are a hack; you do not deserve to upgrade yet)

[kai]

Man their gonna announce something IM gonna want *>:(

(Me repeating my Mantra: John, you are a hack; you do not deserve to upgrade yet)

ha of course you do! You get bonus points for your guinness record winning number of posts! ;)

[Rich Lee]

sweet! im just hearing the news! cant wait for more info....but its already very exciting. i wonder if there will be a chip size increase? id love to have a little more shallow depth of field...we shall see i guess.

just out of curiousity....but do hardware vendors do "beta testing" much like software vendors? do they get a group of noncompany people together with hardware and let them go at it? ive been a softimage beta tester for a few year, and its pretty cool to be in on it early...reporting bugs and cool experiences...

anyway....cant wait...so how long after the original DVX was officialy announced did it actualy hit the stores? for the xl2 it was a few months right?

[Barry_Green]

The DVX was announced in April 2002, with a projected date of October 10th, 2002. I believe it actually hit stores a few days early.

IINM, the XL2 was announced in a July, with almost immediate availability.

The Z1 was announced sometime in December I think, with projected availability in February/March. And I believe the first ones actually hit the shelves in late January.

But that's all coming off the top of my head, I could be quite wrong.

[powerdog]

Somewhat OT, but speaking of HD and what's best: I was just feasting my eyes on the HD cam used for the movie Collateral. The LCD viewfinder alone is a $10K accessory!

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/ModelInfo?m=0&sm=0&p=2&sp=19&id=75222

[Caution]

Sorry to ask this but Barry doesn’t the HVR-Z1 shoot DVCPRO as well? And if it does will we still have problems regarding the footage knowing the fact its interlaced and not progressive (for editing) ? ???

[oleg]

the z-1 shoots" dvc pro" as well - but with other name -dv and dvcam
same thing different casset :-)

[Shaw]

No, DVCpro is a specific format that utilizes a 100mbs data stream. HDV is only 25mps - far, far less. HDV is a 4:2:0 codec, DVCproHD is a 4:2:2. There is a huge difference.

[Loki]

DVCAM is just a more stable tape format. it writes the data over a larger space on the tape, therefore has less dropout.. the tape runs faster through the write heads.. gives you slightly less recording time..

I am positive here... the Z1 does not shoot DVCPRO.. that is a panasonic format.

the Sony cam shoots, HDV, DV, and DVCAM... DV and DVCAM = same picture quality.

Cpt. Jack, I don't think your question makes too much sesne.. what problems might you be referring to? Editing Progressive vs. Interlaced should never cause problems...

Are you talking about the HDV editing as the "problem" because of the MPEG2 compression?

And shaw I think you meant DVCPROHD has a 100MBps data rate...

DVCPRO25 = 25MBps(Normal DV 4:1:1)
DVCPRO50 = 50MBps(4:2:2)
DVCPROHD = 100MBps(4:2:2)

[David Jimerson]

Somewhat OT, but speaking of HD and what's best: I was just feasting my eyes on the HD cam used for the movie Collateral. The LCD viewfinder alone is a $10K accessory!

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Professional/webapp/ModelInfo?m=0&sm=0&p=2&sp=19&id=75222

I love that! $135,002.00 US price.

Nope, sorry; $135K is my limit; that two bucks kills the deal!

[Caution]

(Loki)
I was referring to the loss of frames when shooting interlaced, with hdv i heard you have loss of frames will this be the same problem when using dvcam for the hvr-z1u ? or this wont matter? ???

[powerdog]

David, I'll throw in the two bucks and we'll SHARE the camera!

[Barry_Green]

For clarification: DV, DVCAM, and DVCPRO (also known as DVCPRO25) are all basically identical, as far as the bits on tape are concerned. DVCAM uses the same tape as DV but runs the tape faster through the camera, spreading the data across a larger surface area of the tape, which makes for more reliable recording and better interfacing with linear editing. DVCPRO uses a different tape formulation for more reliability, among other things.

They're all 25mbps 4:1:1 formats. In PAL it's a little different, DVCPRO is still 4:1:1 whereas DV and DVCAM are 4:2:0.

DVCPRO50 is an enhancement to the DVCPRO format. It somehow gangs two DV codecs together to record twice the data rate, at a lower compression ratio, so you get 3.3:1 compression and 4:2:2 color sampling. DVCPRO50 is frequently compared to Digital Betacam for quality; DVCPRO50 is, I believe, bitstream compatible with JVC's D-9/Digital-S format.

DVCPRO-HD takes it one step further, doubling the data rate again to 100 megabits, and providing for native 720p or 1080i recording, while retaining the 4:2:2 color sampling.


I was referring to the loss of frames when shooting interlaced, with hdv i heard you have loss of frames will this be the same problem when using dvcam for the hvr-z1u ? or this wont matter?
I'm not sure I understand this question either. Are you referring to tape dropouts causing 15 frames to be lost? If so, I think I know where you're coming from. There's a common confusion that somehow DVCAM will help prevent that on the Z1. But that's a completely misunderstood view of the situation. You can't record HDV data in DVCAM format. DVCAM is a standard-def format, 720x480. So if you put the Z1 in DVCAM mode, you will *not* be recording high-def video, you'll be recording regular standard-def video (no different than if you put the camera in DV mode). DVCAM will help prevent dropouts as compared to DV mode, but even if a dropout hits in DV or DVCAM mode, it'll only affect maybe 1 frame. When in HDV mode you're using MPEG-2 compression, and dropouts cause a loss of 15 frames. You cannot record HDV/MPEG-2 when in DVCAM mode. It's not possible. It's like trying to run a gasoline car on diesel fuel -- they're just completely not the same thing at all.

So DVCAM mode on the Z1 will do nothing about the 15-frame dropout issue, because DVCAM mode means you're recording in standard-def, not high-def. The 15-frame dropout issue is limited exclusively to the HDV high-def mode. Now, using DVCAM tapes might help avoid the dropout issue some, because DVCAM tapes are theoretically engineered to a higher quality standard and should be more dropout-resistant... but that's not shooting in DVCAM mode, you understand. That's shooting in HDV mode, and choosing to record on a DVCAM tape. Personally, if I was using a Z1, I'd only use the Sony $18 HDV tapes that they introduced specifically for this camera.

[Caution]

Barry,

Thanx for understanding what I was talking about and i am sorry I was not clear about it in my post, but again thank you becuse of your reply I understand this process much better.

[smkoch]

awsome! :D

[xander76]

In 1080i, HDV is 25-megabit data. *DVCPRO-HD is 4 times the bandwidth, at 100 megabits. *In 720p, HDV is 19-megabits, DVCPRO-HD is 5 times the bandwidth, at 100 megabits.

At the risk of sounding like a one-trick pony, isn't the comparison of data rates at 720p a little unfair? *When talking about quality vis-a-vis bandwidth, it seems to me that the important statistic is actually megabits per frame rather than megabits per second. *It just happens that most video runs at the same frame rate, so comparisons of megabits per second usually work fine.

In this case, though, that doesn't hold true, since 100 Mbps 720p DVCPROHD is 60fps, and DVCPROHD does not use the whole bandwidth when the frame rate is lower. *Thus, there is only 50Mbps of unique information when 720p DVCPROHD is running at 30fps or about 42Mbps when 720p DVCPROHD is running at 25fps. *So, I would say that this is a more valid comparison:

at 720p30: DVCPROHD 50Mbps * HDV 19Mbps *(DVCPROHD 2.6 times greater)
at 720p25: DVCPROHD 42Mbps * HDV 19Mbps *(DVCPROHD 2.2 times greater)

Note that this argument does not hold for 1080i footage. *As near as I can tell, 1080i in DVCPROHD runs at 60i and 50i (the same frame rates as 1080i HDV) and doesn't seem to have the same variable frame rate pulldown that 720p does.

Also note that I agree with Barry that DVCPROHD is probably a better format for many reasons; I just thought that the data rate comparison wasn't fair.

Edited to add: *I realized a corollary to this is that DVCPRO50 is significantly less compressed than DVCPROHD at 720p. *Since DVCPROHD 720p30 has exactly twice as many pixels as DVCPRO50 at the same data rate (50 Mbps) and the same color sampling (4:2:2), DVCPROHD 720p is twice as compressed as DVCPRO50. *If you run through the math, you will also find that 720p DVCPROHD has a 1.3 times higher compression rate than even normal DV, although this may be compensated for by the fact that it samples color at twice the rate of DV.

Edited again to add: Looking further into HDV, I found that 720p50 and 720p60 are also part of the spec, although I'm not sure any products support these flavors. Clearly, the 50p and 60p versions of HDV would have more compression issues than 25p or 30p HDV since they fit twice as many frames in the same bandwidth. At 720p60, Barry's original claim that DVCPROHD has about 5 times the bandwidth of 720p HDV is correct. At 720p50, DVCPROHD has about 4.4 times the bandwidth of HDV.

[magicdavek]

HDV can be recorded on $4 miniDV tape. *I don't know that DVCPRO-HD can, but we'll see.

It would be great if Panasonic took the simple idea used with the Digital8 format. It uses Hi8 2 hour tapes and records and plays back the tapes at half speed so you get better video (Digital8 vs. Hi8 ) but only 1 hour on that two hour tape.

If only the DVCPRO-HD would record to standard MiniDV tapes, say 20 minutes per 1 hour tape. While a pain for event videographers, it would be great for filmmakers. However, why would Panasonic do such a thing if they can make a bundle on the P2 cards?

[Flintstone]

What would be awesome is to have native recording to hard disk. You can get 100GB 2.5" hard drives nowadays. It's much smaller then a tape transport, and slightly larger then P2 cards. The drive could be removable too. This type of solution would be ideal for event videographers... heck, even filmmakers would love it.

But the leak for the HDX said it would be P2 and tape. I'm not sure that using MiniDV tapes would be the best choice, but it would certainly make fiscal sense. Alas, 15 to 20 minutes max on tape would be a drag.