Panasonic @ NAB....

[Indy]

What are Panasonic likely to announce at NAB with regards a DVX100 replacement? If not NAB when?

Cheers.....

[Zim]

everyone would like to know that....

[Barry_Green]

There will be no DVX100 replacement, Panasonic has already announced that the DVX is a current product and will continue to be a current product.

If anything's announced it'll likely be the much-rumored HD camera, which will be more in the $5,000-$6,000 price range.

[Zim]

that's to bad.

[NewBee]

Initially at least, I agree with you Zim. This could be a disappointment ...

$5,000-$6,000 is steep for a 1/3" CCD camera. Especially if we will need to pay an additional $2,000 or more for P2 cards ...

[scharky]

$5,000-$6,000 is steep for a 1/3" CCD camera. *Especially if we will need to pay an additional $2,000 or more for P2 cards ... *

Someone should tell sony that then.
I don't think 5G's is a lot to pay for a 1/3 CCD camera, rember the XL2 is much short of that either. Just becuase the camera isn't meant to go against the current DVX, that price point puts it in league with the XL2 and Z1. The street price will probably be in direct correlation with the other two aformentioned cameras. And 5'gs for a DVCproHD camera, wow, you gotta love that.

[NewBee]

I agree with on some things scharky ...

4:2:2 Codec ... ;D I like this ...

Unfortunately, it is a 1/3" CCD, and unfortunately, it will exhibit some of the same issues that Jarred and Barry raised in their "side-by-side" analysis ... I am a bit unhappy with this aspect ...

*If* it is in fact P2 *and* the cards are *pricey* this further complicates matters because *NOW* your camera is $7000 ++ *before* purchasing accessories ...

For now however, I will sit and watch and wait ...

[Zim]

[quote author=NewBee link=board=nws;num=1107969938;start=0#4 date=02/09/05 at 11:05:27]Initially at least, I agree with you Zim. *This could be a disappointment ...

It will be for me. I really don't want HD right now. Just Native 16:9. I don't want to do all the stuff in post to get there either. I like the XL2 but it seems to have problems. A lot of people post things that are going wrong with it. The 16:9 and 24p is what I want. Not sure why Panasonic would not improve on the DVX100a. I think they could sell a lot of them.

Sony should have put 24p on the Z1.

I'm just not going to spend the money on something that does not give me what I want.

[Shaw]

I'm just not going to spend the money on something that does give me what I want.

:D :D :D

[NewBee]

;D

typos aside ... though, I have some similar concerns ... I don't want to be too quick to judge though ... I mean everything right now is pure specilation and will be for several months to come ...

I am hoping to see a similar product with a 1/2" CCD ... this may take awhile ... in the meantime, I am a proud owner of a beautiful DVX100A so I will continue to play and learn ... and play some more ... 8)

[Zig_Zigman]

I think Panasonic wants to put 24p through it's entire line, so their 1/2 chip cams would get it too, eventually. A nice 1/2 16dx9 24p cam for say...11k or so...

I think jvc is going to beat them to the punch.

[Zoomforce]

Hey... the Panasonic camera may not use HDV for compression.. who knows :)

[Zoomforce]

Hey... the Panasonic camera may not use HDV for compression.. who knows.. but I will be there at NAB to find out :)

[Zim]

*:D :D :D
I fixed it!!

[NewBee]

Ya know, I really love DVXUser.com ... 8) ...

Thanks Jarred ... This is a really cool site ...

[Flintstone]

Hey! DVCProHD 4:2:2, 100mpbs, 720p (variable frame rate maybe?) at $5K to $6K is fine by me. ;D I'd even go at $7K to $8K if its CCDs are 1/2" on a DVX style form factor. But I doubt that this will happen. :-/ Besides, 1/2" is mighty nice compared to 1/3", but is a serious contender to 2/3", and that might harm Varicam sales.

Purely Speculation:
Of course, if Panasonics goal is to wipe out the competition, a $10k to $12K shoulder mount model 720p DVCProHD P2 (24p, 25p, 30p, 60p, NTSC, PAL switchable) with 1/2" using standard 1/2" broadcast lens would be killer. :o

But on the low end cameras (DVX style), Pany would be wise not to adopt HDV, and rather push for it's very own DVCProHD. It is already natively supported on Macs, and will be soon on PCs. HDVs 25mbps is just not enough.

I want 4:2:2 100mps 720p DVCProHD... Period. I think it's the best compromise between quality and compression.

[adaml]

I'm pretty sure Jan has made it clear that it will be dvcprohd, not hdv. At least that's my impression.

[Barry_Green]

Hey... the Panasonic camera may not use HDV for compression.. who knows.. but I will be there at NAB to find out :)
They've already announced that it won't be HDV, it'll be DVCPRO-HD!

[24Peter]

But have they announced that it will be announced at NAB? Or is that just speculation? ??? [Now even I'm confused ::)]

[Barry_Green]

Complete speculation as to "when". The only thing they've announced is that they will respond, with full-fledged DVCPRO-HD, and with P2 memory recording, at a "competitive with the Z1" price point. They haven't indicated when the actual announcement about the product, specific features, or release timetable will be.

[Ernest_Acosta]

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=102

[scharky]

ARRRRGGGGG.
How many times is this damn thing gonna pop up. Somebody needs to ban that link. :P

[NewBee]

What a great looking camera ... :-/

[Ernest_Acosta]

It look like Star Trek meets Buck Rogers meets Battlestar Galactica

[scharky]

meets my super 8 camera from 1976. Can we please not have another thread on the DVX Balsa 200. Pleaassssssse :'(

[Isaac_Brody]

Doesn't anyone check out threads before posting? :-/

[Zoomforce]

we should all get together at some hotel in vegas and storm NAB as one DVXuser brigade.

[Gary_McClurg]

I can't make it but I can send a friend.

[Flintstone]

They've already announced that it won't be HDV, it'll be DVCPRO-HD!

Hey Barry! You just made me a very happy camper! :D

[Barry_Green]

The happiness only begins to start there. This P2 recording system is going to be flat-out revolutionary. The more I read about P2, the more "amped" I get on it.

[Rich Lee]

we should all get together in some hotel in vegas and penetrate NAB from the rear entrance like some DVXuser brigade.


and we can rub bath oil on each other?

[Bermudaforce]

Just look for a guy in a santa outfit.

[Zoomforce]

Yes.. DVCpro-HD is what it is supposed to be, It's just one of those too good to be true things in my head for some reason... Dont wanna step on the Varicam but who knows... Panasonic has been known to knock our socks off :)

[ddh]

I agree about the P2 card. It's going to revolutionize shooting....that is when it becomes reasonably priced!

[enterdcable]

Have y'all used the arris digital cam? The size of the CCD chip is the exact same size as a 35mm negative. :D :D :D

[Flintstone]

I agree about the P2 card. It's going to revolutionize shooting....that is when it becomes reasonably priced!
Yes, price is going to be an issue at first. I wonder though, how long will it take for those P2 cards to become accessible price-wise.

Makes you wonder about event videography, where non-stop recording is a must. The HD1200A deck at $28K is a tad steep for such tasks, as well as not very luggable if you run and gun.

I guess using a laptop will be a viable option, as long as you don't have to move around too much... Although I can only imagine, and chuckle, walking around a wedding, a parade, or some other form of show, having a laptop in a backpack, hooked up to the DVCProHD P2 camcorder for extended record shots. Kind'a funny! ::)

I guess this would be the downside of P2... other then price that is.

Fred

[NewBee]

The Questions Rolling Around in My Head Are:

1. P2 Price - Roughly 20% of my revenue is generated via Weddings
2. DVD Standards - 4:2:2 Codec is a definite upgrade but HD doesn't do much for me if my distribution is DVD ( until a DVD HD Standard exists ).
3. Lens - If this is a 1/3" CCD, I will have concerns about the glass on the camera.
4. LUX/Low Light - If this is a 1/3" CCD, the camera will likely be 1.5-2 full stops worse than the current DVX. Hence, there won't be any low light improvement - only degradation.
5. Smears/Artifacts due to 16:9 on the same size CCD.

Hmmm ... I don't know, I am definitely going to need more information before I get too excited ...

[ronik15]

When is the NAB show? Is it the one at Peeble Beach? (I hope it's not this one because it's a invitation-only show) :(

[shAi]

When is the NAB show? *Is it the one at Peeble Beach? *(I hope it's not this one because it's a invitation-only show) *:(

vegas, april

[Gary_McClurg]

Someone must be thinking about golfing.

[mr._guiyotinne]

I was thinking for a while about something i hear here. Between the varicam and the DVX and this next generation we are speaking about. I read that DVX were sell all over the world in a considerable number. But how many varicams were sell? I will like to know. Maybe not enough to compare with DVX numbers and earnings. Just a guess. And now varicam is getting a lot of competitors meaning kinetta and so.

Maybe is a good point to win the prosumer market range with a camera that will run away the competition and save the big varicam for the next evolution. If they offer HD 24p with P2 disks in 1/3 CCDs and a reasonable price sure they will get everything, even if other companies (like Canon) counterattack with their own versions Panasonic has lot of weight and quality value.

We loose nearly 2 stops of light, but we win HD resolution, true 24p, native 16:9 and get rid of minidv tapes. Two stops is a little price to pay in my opinion. Run and gun will be more of a problem, but for Indie directors throwing light everywere, i don´t think so. And transfers to film will be even better...

Nearly tow months to NAB... looks like eternity!

[ronik15]

Does it worth the price to flight to NAB? I'm from Montreal....

[Barry_Green]

Makes you wonder about event videography, where non-stop recording is a must. *The HD1200A deck at $28K is a tad steep for such tasks, as well as not very luggable if you run and gun.

If Steve Mullen's report is accurate, there's apparently a solution already -- Panasonic is reportedly going to introduce some sort of portable 60gb hard disk/card reader device. Plug the card into the device, and it'll transfer the contents to hard disk... so with just a couple of cards, and plenty of hard disc space, you could theoretically record very long events continuously, and it should be quite portable for run 'n' gun. I've got a 60gb hard disc in a USB2 external enclosure, and it's maybe 3" x 5"...

Well, it's all speculation until the company announces it.

As far as "worth a flight from Montreal"... basically NAB is a convention of about 150,000 video professionals all converging in Vegas to show their wares. It can be interesting, but I'm betting that if you were coming to NAB to see the Panasonic product, you'll likely be very disappointed with your experience -- there will be *massive* crowds, long lines, and not much time to look at gear because there'll always be someone along to push you out of the way and take your spot. I mean, come on down if you like, but recently I've visited the trade shows just by going to the manufacturer's websites and reading their press releases... saves a *lot* of hassle, time, money, and basically tells you just about everything you'd learn by going to NAB to see a hot release like this anyway... :)

[Zoomforce]

Ronik.. Ive been going every year for the last 5 or so years... there was one year in there that really sucked.. but its cool to see all the new stuff. As Barry said, and he must be convention king since he lives in Vegas... dont go the first day. First day unless your 6 foot 7 like me and can see over everyone you spend the day looking at the back of someone else's bald head.

Plus.. its Vegas.. If you blow a grand on a ticket and hotel and the show is very lame to you.. I am sure you can find some other trouble to get into on the strip.

[Zoomforce]

Makes you wonder about event videography, where non-stop recording is a must. *

I think the cards, even though they have been introduced by panasonic as an event/news format, may do better in the Film world.. a world of long setups and minute recording times... at least untill a 10gb P2 card costs 100 bucks.

[adaml]

If Panasonic maintains a patent on the cards (I don't know if they do), then here's a scenario:

By releasing an extremely popular prosumer camera with high sales, Panasonic can manufacture P2 cards at scale, bringing the price way down but maintaining a healthy profit margin. Now they can sell the HDX at a low profit margin/competitive price because they'll make a ton of money selling the P2 cards, and have the market cornered for several years.

[mr._guiyotinne]

Saw your point adaml. Claiming to God to be true!

Cos P2s are quite expensive... Maybe they put the camera at 6000$ and give us our first P2, or two different packages, for people who want the P2 ando for those who don´t want it. Just like Canon and their lenses.

[Zoomforce]

The actual cards are a pansonic only product, but inside is SD cards so the cost of the cards should directly relate to the price and capacity of SD cards... but it will probally be a slight lag in time.. For example right now the current standard max SD card is 2gb.. which would give you 8gb p2 cards.. and 4gb SD cards are just starting to show.. which gives you 16gb... and by the end of the year we should see 8gb SD cards.. so there should be 32gb P2 cards shortly after, hopefully soon after the new camera is released.

Now for pricing however... The price of a 4gb P2 card last time I checked was just over $2000.... now 4x1Gb SD cards Retail currently costs about 300 bucks.. so of course that whole pricing structure will need to change... because SD media changes so fast.. unlike Minidv media.

[Barry_Green]

Like I said in another post though, these cards are special-duty, not regular cards. Regular cards run at maybe 5mb speed, whereas P2 cards need something like 80mb speed... so they may not follow regular card pricing. Hopefully the camera will be a huge hit, and people will be buying so many cards that the price will come down rapidly.

[MovieSwede]

yes the price of the P2 cards is going to be a critical factor for this cam.

Indie filmakers have an indie budget. And I like to shot as much material as possible to give me more options at the editing.

MiniDV greatest advantage is that no matter what the cam cost, it cheap to shot with it.

[Jaime Valles]

P2 cards are expensive, but that's sort of ok because you don't need many. For continuous event videography 1 or 2 is enough (provided you have a laptop handy to offload the footage while the other one is still recording). For indie filmmaking, 1 is plenty. Most takes are 30 seconds long, anyway.

I think P2 cards are going to give the Firestore FS4 a serious run for their money.

Oh, and the XL2 and HD-FX are TOTALLY GONNA GET SPANKED!!! BOOYAHH!!!!!! :D ;D

[Zig_Zigman]

guys what the worry? They are going to keep the tape drive AND have a p2 drive...

[Zoomforce]

Like I said in another post though, these cards are special-duty, not regular cards. *Regular cards run at maybe 5mb speed, whereas P2 cards need something like 80mb speed... so they may not follow regular card pricing. *Hopefully the camera will be a huge hit, and people will be buying so many cards that the price will come down rapidly.

The SD cards arn't that special.. but my point was was price justification with current market fluctuations.. when the P2 cards came out last year, a 1 gb SD card cost $400. 4 of them together would cost $1600 so the $2000 price tag for the P2 card was somewhat justified. I am sure, that when the p2 cards start going and demand is increased, prices will come down.

[Barry_Green]

Yeah, but the HD cards have much higher specs for data transfer. Panasonic has two series of P2 cards, one for SD (DVCPRO50/DVCPRO25) and a second "H" series for HD. The "H" series cards are a lot more expensive because they need to support a higher data transfer rate.

[Zoomforce]

Yes.. of course Im talking about the $2000 Standard P2 cards... I have no idea how much the HD cards are.

[Jack_Felis]

Well, what I don't get is what will be the difference between using the P2 cards and tape? Also, what tapes is this camera going to use? Mini-DV or DVCPRO-HD tapes? I missed a few things, maybe they haven't been mentioned. But in any case, I'll see at NAB ;D.

[Indy]

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=HDV;num=1108237589;start=0#2 date=02/09/05 at 10:16:24]There will be no DVX100 replacement, Panasonic has already announced that the DVX is a current product and will continue to be a current product.

At the moment I guess that Panasonic have to be careful insofar as if they announce or even hint at a sucessor it'll kill sales of the 100. Looking in another topic there is mention of a "AJ-HDX100" (pure speculaton at the moment!) but boy does it look interesting. My only real concern is that pricewise early adopters are usually hammered.

Well looks like I'll be holding off my purchase till NAB.... Can anyone confirm the dates of NAB this year??

Cheers

[David Jimerson]

4/16-21

[Isaac_Brody]

Well if the DVX continues as Jan's stated then it makes sense that a DVCPRO model would be a few thousand dollars more.

A HDX100 would fall nicely between the DVX100 and the SDX900.

[monte]

man, you're already so close when you buy the p2 cards, so why not just go SDX-900?

[Barry_Green]

Because the new camera is high-def, and the SDX isn't. *That's the main differrentiating feature. *Plus, if the new camera is $6,000 as was originally reported, and maybe $10,000 fully "kitted out", that's still a LONG way from the SDX, which is $27,000 just for the body alone, and more like $40,000 fully kitted-out with lens, VF, power, etc.


if they announce or even hint at a sucessor it'll kill sales of the 100
Yes, if it was a successor, then they could "kaypro" themselves. *However, at the price point being mentioned, it's not really a threat to the DVX. *I mean, it's like a BMW 3-series vs. a BMW 5-series. *There's a gulf of price between them, and a gulf of features between them, and BMW sells plenty of 3-series cars, and plenty of 5-series. *There's a market for each. *Just like Panasonic can sell all the GS400's and DVC30's they make. *A DVX is not an HDX-whatever; and a DVC30 is not a DVX. *But Panasonic sells a lot of DVC30's, they'll continue to sell a lot of DVX's, and they'll sell a lot of HDX's (just my prediction, but I think it's accurate).

[Loki]

Am I the only one that thinks Panasonic.. or any camera computer for that matter should come out with a system that uses detacble HD's for recording..

the 60gb iPod Photo is small.. light.. and has a Firewire 400 interface.. that is a 50MB/sec transfer rate.... (unsure of actual read/write time of the HD)

think about it though, with DVCPROHD being 100Mbps... (12.5MB/sec) a hard drive based system could easily keep up with the data being streamed onto it.

and the iPod Photo is what.. like $599? strip away apples markups.. *and just go with the Hard Drive price... that is one pretty damn price efficient storage/shooting option..

wishful thinking at best.. just get pany and apple together.. bam! we'd have:

"The new iHDVX100, now you can listen to music as you shoot! Just plug in your iPod."

lol ;)

[Barry_Green]

If Steve Mullen's report is accurate, Panasonic is supposedly going to be introducing a P2->hard disk device, something that has a hard disk on it and then you can plug a P2 card right into it and offload the contents of your P2 card. This could give you theoretically perpetual record times, from as few as maybe 3 P2 cards... as soon as one fills up, you pull it out and plug it into the hard disk to start it offloading, and continue recording on the second card in the camera. You'd use a third card in case the drive wasn't done downloading all the data in time...

... anyway, apparently they're already working on it, and this solution has the added benefit of not needing to be tied to the camera at all.

[Isaac_Brody]

Perhaps Firestore will have a product for writing DVCPRO straight to their drives. It would be nice to have some economical options.

[mr._guiyotinne]

Yes, if your are shooting perpetually over a tripod it´s ok. Imagine in a wedding. I´, sure this piece of technology is aimed to filmakers, but there will be a moment when possible customers will ask for their weddings in HD, and... Ok, by them sure we will have 128 GB P2 cards. IT´s the price of P2 that kills me.

Sure if Firestore do set an HD set to record DVCPRO people will go for it instead of P2 (price difference is a point), or if some modder takes the photo Ipod and fix it to save through the firewire he will be followed by a crowd, unless Pana do something to take down prices.

Maybe if they give a 2 gb card with the camera it will take prices down as it create some demand of his biggers and a good base list of consumers.

But people will fly to Firestore or ipod when they will be able.

[Jaime Valles]

Speaking of the SDX900... I wonder how the images of the two would compare, especially for indie filmmaking in 24p:
DVCPRO-50 with 2/3" CCDs and broadcast lenses
v.s.
DVCPRO-HD with 1/3" (?) CCDs and a fixed, prosumer Leica lens

Whaddaya think? Would the big non-HD SDX900 still beat out the "HDX" in terms of image quality, detail, latitude and dynamic range? I'm sure it would have the advantage in shallow depth-of-field because of the 2/3" CCDs, but HD is cool, too... Especially for a film-out to 35mm.

Of course, this is all speculation until real-world testing can occur, but I still think the $27,000 camera will beat out the "under $10,000" one.

[yellowdog]

Speaking of the SDX900... *I wonder how the images of the two would compare, especially
Of course, this is all speculation until real-world testing can occur, but I still think the $27,000 camera will beat out the "under $10,000" one.

The $27,000 cam better beat out the $10,000 version. I know I would be really pissed if I spent more than twice the amount and they were the same. :'(
David

[Barry_Green]

Speaking of the SDX900... *I wonder how the images of the two would compare, especially for indie filmmaking in 24p:
DVCPRO-50 with 2/3" CCDs and broadcast lenses
v.s.
DVCPRO-HD with 1/3" (?) CCDs and a fixed, prosumer Leica lens

Whaddaya think? *Would the big non-HD SDX900 still beat out the "HDX" in terms of image quality, detail, latitude and dynamic range?
I'd bet on it, but until we test it, we won't know. I think the difference would be like DigiBeta vs. DV. It also depends on your destination display device -- I think the SDX would spank the new camera silly when making DVD output, but of course that's speculation based on mathematics, and not based on any observation.

For a film transfer? Um, that's a different question. Twice the pixels can make up for some of the difference... would make for an interesting test!

[Zoomforce]

Loki.. the Ipod was at one point attempted to be converted to a portable capture device.. but the interface and subsystem couldn't even handle a single SD DV stream.. Now given that was way back a few years ago, the new generation of ipods could use faster drives.

[Neil Rowe]

yeah ..if the panasonic HDD sollution lets you just put it straight on the camera and it uses a P2 card for a buffer and then records immditaly to disk without having to pull cards out and swap and all that it would be great. the direct recoding to P2 means solid reliable reocrding, and then it immedialty dumps it to the HDD using a solid buffer to make sure everything gets to disk fast and reliably. i dont care if the cam weighs an extra 2 lbs with a HDD on it. that would rock.

[natob2]

Have y'all used the arris digital cam? *The size of the CCD chip is the exact same size as a 35mm negative. * :D :D :D

Yeah I know. Panny needs to put the same big fat chip in the HDX100. They also need to make it variable framerate up to 4000fps. I also want interchangeable lens, 16x9, like, uh, 16 CCDS, 20 hr battery life, 20 hrs of HD recording...no make that 100...actually forget 720P what we need is 4K Uncompressed. I also want it to be gold plated, you know, for durability. I want this all for $3400 or less, less would be better, panny are you listening? This would be pure genius.

[Gary_McClurg]

;D

[Flintstone]

LOL!

I'd replace gold by titanium, as a matter of fact, the whole body should be titanuim, filled with helium to make the camcorder float in the air like the Goodyear blimp.

[Isaac_Brody]

This may be asking too much, (Its been ignored even though clearly there's a market for it and we've asked for it before) but how about an unsuck filter or button? ;)

[Flintstone]

This may be asking too much, (Its been ignored even though clearly there's a market for it and we've asked for it before) but how about an unsuck filter or button? *;)
Unsuck filter! That's a good one! You crack me up Isaac. :D