AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com

[tomapete]

ditto

[Shaw]

Interesting. Thanks for the post. I wonder how much is true.

[NewBee]

"The camcorder will record to MiniDV tapes, however it will also have a P2 card slot. The P2 card format was introduced by Panasonic as a tapeless news gathering recording format. The cards contain a matrix of smaller secure digital type cards and cost upwards of $4,000 each"

$4,000 Each ???? :o Whoa!!!

[NewBee]

Recording to MiniDV Tapes is a good thing though ... So if this release is accurate, we will still be able to utilize MiniDV until the P2 Prices come down ... ;D

[Rezzie]

Whoa...this is great news (if it's true). Hopefully it won't be too expensive. I guess it'll most likely be competitive with Z1U's price. I can't wait for more information on this.

[ccroo]

Can it be true? Please be true! (Didn't expect such good news so soon)

[ccroo]

This may be more expensive than the Sony.... How could the Sony compete? Real HD v. HDV? No contest. Especially when you think of the tape dropout threat with HDV....

[NewBee]

The Press Release lists this as a "ProSumer" Camera ...
The higher your price point, the tougher it is to reach the "ProSumer" Market ... Don't forget, Panny will have competition in the HD arena ( JVC, Sony, ? ) and also don't forget no matter how you cut it, this is still a 1/3" CCD Camera, which means your markup has to be limited ...

Still nothing but pre-pre-pre speculation ...

[Flintstone]

Whoa! I'm excited! :D

[Barry_Green]

Camcorderinfo isn't necessarily known for its "hard news". However, apparently Jan responded to Steve Mullen's post on creativecow, and didn't deny anything (nor did she confirm anything either). So, take it for what it is -- an unauthorized "leak", which may or may not be accurate, may or may not be based in fact.

The only thing Jan did say, that I heard new, was the inclusion of DVCPRO50, and she also confirmed that it will have 24p! DVCPRO50 means 4:2:2 color sampling for standard-def, which should mean exquisitely better chroma keys, when shooting for SD. And 24p means that this will be *the* filmmaker's camera (er, other than film, of course)! Now it remains to be seen just how far "under" $10,000 it will be.

Interesting that Steve said it will have tape and P2. I was hoping it would. Now I just hope it can record HD and DVCPRO50 data on that tape!

As far as I'm concerned, we now have confirmation from Jan that we'll see a high-def DVCPROHD/DVCPRO50/miniDV camera, with 24P and P2 recording, for "under $10,000". But previously we'd been told it'd be priced "competitive with the Sony"... so, people can spread rumors or speculation if they want, but I'd still want to see an official announcement from Panasonic.

[xander76]

Interesting that Steve said it will have tape and P2.

I saw that the camcorderinfo article said it would include tape recording, but I didn't see anything in Steve's post about tape recording. Did I miss something?

[Jaime Valles]

Totally awesome!!!!

Do you think it would be possible to record directly into a laptop through firewire with an external hard disk? *We can do it now with any NLE and MiniDV, but what about DVCPRO50 or HD? *Too much bandwith?

If recording direct to hard disk is possible, this would seriously be the ultimate indie filmmaker camera.

Just curious... How much Disk space does an hour of DVCPROHD take up? *MiniDv is something like 14GB per hour. *What about DVCPRO50?

[Barry_Green]

Any speculation of what you can or cannot do is simply that -- speculation -- until specifications are released.

So -- can it record directly to a laptop? Don't know. But I do know that it can do something much better -- you can pull the P2 card out of the camera and stick it right in your laptop and be able to edit right then and there. Or copy it to your laptop's hard disk. It's better because you aren't chained to the laptop -- you could go roam in the field, gather footage, and when the memory card's full, then plug it into the laptop and offload the footage. Steve Mullen claims that Panasonic's also talking about a miniature card reader/hard disk combo thing, which would let you offload your P2 cards onto a hard disk without even needing a laptop! We'll see if that's true. But P2 is already available on the SPX800 camera, and those P2 cards can be slid right into a Laptop's cardbus slot.

Also, with the SPX800 you can use the camera and its memory cards as if they were an external USB hard disk... i.e., you can plug the camera into the laptop and the laptop will recognize the camera as a hard disk, letting you access the contents of all its memory cards. It remains to be seen if the new camera (the supposedly-named HDX) can do that.

As far as space, it's an easy formula to calculate: DV data is 25 megabits per second, DVCPRO-50 is 50 megabits, and DVCPRO100-HD is 100 megabits. So DV takes about 13 gigabytes per hour, DVCPRO-50 will take about 26 gigs per hour, and DVCPRO-HD is about 52 gigs per hour (or, easier stated, somewhere around a gigabyte per minute).

[xander76]

DVCPRO-HD is about 52 gigs per hour (or, easier stated, somewhere around a gigabyte per minute).

Sorry for being a pedant, but DVCPRO-HD's data rate depends on the frame rate. It is 100Mbps for 720p60, but we don't really know if this camera will support that framerate. My guess would be not, since 60fps is a pretty specialized application. At 720p24, on the other hand, DVCPRO-HD's frame rate is only 40Mbps, or about 20GB per hour.

(Note that we do not have confirmation yet that the camera will be 720p instead of 1080p, although I'd be willing to bet on it given the fact that it's a prosumer camera.)

[Jaime Valles]

Any speculation of what you can or cannot do is simply that -- speculation -- until specifications are released.

Absolutely. Nobody here knows what's coming up, but it sure is fun trying to guess ;)


So -- can it record directly to a laptop? *Don't know. *But I do know that it can do something much better -- you can pull the P2 card out of the camera and stick it right in your laptop and be able to edit right then and there.

P2 cards are definitely the way to go for convenience. I'm just worried about the price factor... Assuming the "HDX" costs $4999 (total guess, btw), having to add another $4000 for a P2 card is scary. I know prices will eventually come down, but until then, I'd like to be able to connect the camera to a laptop and record directly, if possible.


Or copy it to your laptop's hard disk. *It's better because you aren't chained to the laptop -- you could go roam in the field, gather footage, and when the memory card's full, then plug it into the laptop and offload the footage... P2 is already available on the SPX800 camera, and those P2 cards can be slid right into a Laptop's cardbus slot.

Also, with the SPX800 you can use the camera and its memory cards as if they were an external USB hard disk... i.e., you can plug the camera into the laptop and the laptop will recognize the camera as a hard disk, letting you access the contents of all its memory cards.

That would seriously rock!!!!


As far as space, it's an easy formula to calculate: DV data is 25 megabits per second, DVCPRO-50 is 50 megabits, and DVCPRO100-HD is 100 megabits. *So DV takes about 13 gigabytes per hour, DVCPRO-50 will take about 26 gigs per hour, and DVCPRO-HD is about 52 gigs per hour (or, easier stated, somewhere around a gigabyte per minute).

Thanks, Barry. Boy, do I feel dumb! :D

[Barry_Green]

Sorry for being a pedant, but DVCPRO-HD's data rate depends on the frame rate.
Well, technically, no... I mean, I hate to out-pedant you, but it all depends on how compliant it is with the DVCPRO-HD standard. DVCPRO-HD is 100 megabits per second, always. With 8 channels of uncompressed audio. That's what the format is.

It is true that if you were recording 24p, only 40 megabits of that 100 would contain unique data. And if you had only two channels of audio active, the other six would be silent. However, there is no DVCPRO-HD device available that records a subsampled 40mbps/2-channel stream. You have to process it through the Frame Rate Conversion tool to extract out and discard the redundant frames to get to 40mbps.

It's possible that the P2 card would automatically do that, to optimize storage space, and maybe it would automatically only record two channels of audio to further save space... but then the files that are getting stored wouldn't technically be DVCPRO-HD compatible files, they'd just be data files that started out as DVCPRO-HD. If you wanted to record back out to tape, you'd have to add in duplicate frames again to bring the data rate back up to 100mbps, because that's what DVCPRO-HD is.

It's the same thing with DV... someone could argue that DV/24p is really only 20mbps, couldn't they? But on tape, it's stored as 60i/25mbps. So it is also with DVCPRO-HD -- every DVCPRO-HD device records 100 megabit streams and nothing else.

Unless I'm totally wrong, which wouldn't surprise me! :)

(Note that we do not have confirmation yet that the camera will be 720p instead of 1080p, although I'd be willing to bet on it given the fact that it's a prosumer camera.)
Excellent point -- we don't even know that! Now, DVCPRO-HD doesn't support 1080p natively... it's either 720p or 1080i... but who's to say Panasonic didn't just implement 1080/24p in a 1080/60i data stream (just like on the DVX)? Wouldn't that just be funny?

Well, I don't think that'll happen, I'm 99% certain it'll be 720p because that's what the VariCam is... but you just pointed out that we don't really know *anything* yet. :)

[Stas_Tagios]

All I know is, I can't wait for NAB! This camera sounds like another potential for a home run from Panasonic. I just hope I can afford it. :)

I'm still not sold on the P2 concept, however. Seems to me that the price and capacity of the storage media will not drop nearly fast enough to make P2 a viable recording format within the near future, even for broadcasters with the budget for it. The instant transfer of files to an NLE is attractive (especially for ENG crews), as is the whole "no moving parts"/camera robustness, but I like archiving all my footage and having tapes of it all makes it easy. If this camera does indeed record to tape and P2, that's a smart move by Panasonic.

[Zoomforce]

I actually think the P2 format is brilliant.. They have had enough time to experiment with it with thier broadcast cameras, and a solid state solution is definately the future.. Given the price of media dropping the way it does it shouldn't be that big of a problem... specially for dramatic content where in a given day you wont shoot more then 10gb of data anyways.

[Stas_Tagios]

Call me old school, but I still like having my taped media that I can upload to my computer, then archive/store for safety (of course, you could always record your footage out to tape after it's on the computer... archiving ina kind of a reverse of digitizing taped footage into an NLE).

I guess digital photographers have accepted the entirely digital/flash media workflow, but I'm still stuck on my film and DV tapes. To me, resuable media somehow makes it seem like the footage you're shooting is disposable/ephemeral. Of course, tapeless is inevitable, but it'll be a while before I let go of the past. Doesn't mean I don't want an HDX100:)

[Zoomforce]

Stas.... Panasonic musta been thinking about you then because if the report is true you have the option... hopefully you can record to tape and card at the same time.. so you retain a tape master that may never need to be played a single time.

[MovieSwede]

well if its a 1/3 ccd cam i hope they stay att 720 and dont go 1080, the pixels are small enough.

[Neil Rowe]

well, although the scource of info here isnt the most credible in my books (camcorder info), we all know that something like this is coming * *...my only real curiosity is when it will hit the streets. *announced at NAB doesnt neccessarily mean available for sale right after NAB. ..hopefully if they do announce the new thing there, they will fill us in on when you can expect to see one in my hands.

[Zoomforce]

I dont think IT will be released for awhile.. but who knows. We say thier mockup last year at NAB, and nothing really has come of that funny looking thing.

Companies however are getting very good at keeping secrets.. so we may get a nice surprise.

Hey just remembered.. does anyone else remember "IT" a few years ago.. the most innovative thing ever, code named Ginger... or "IT". ha ha.. and it turned out to be the Gay Segway... now that is marketing at it's best.

[Pascal_Parvex]

So...If it would be 1080_p_, then it would have the same resolution as the Sony Cinealta for 100 000$? I mean, apart from the quality of the lens, the image processing, and so on? Or does the Cinealta record in a higher resolution, and the HDX would 'only' be 1080x720 like the Sony HDV, but progressive, not interlaced?

[Barry_Green]

The CineAlta images at 1920x1080p, but records at 1440x1080psf.

The Sony FX1/Z1 images at 960x1080i, but uses pixel-shift to get it up to 1440x1080, and then records 1440x1080i.

There's no way to know what the Panasonic may or may not do. We'd need to hear the specs on the CCD's. If it were to be 1080, it would be imaged at whatever size the CCD's support, and then recorded at 1280x1080.

HDCAM and HDV use a 33% up-rez on playback (1440 x 1.333 = 1920). DVCPRO-HD uses a 50% up-rez on playback (1280 x 1.50 = 1920).

[delaro]

please Mr Panasonic, can u give us some infos?
i swear to god i will not buy the sony z1 finally and wait to buy your product ....
and i m probably not the only one ....

[boo]

wow! *this is totally dejavu! *feels like the time when panasonic first introduced the dvx100! *i remember going to nab and trying to get my hands on the thing as i tried to push my way through the crowd. *;) *tape, p2...hopefully we get the best of both worlds...16:9(highly likely) no more anamorphic focusing problems(but at what expense of 4:3 quality?). *exciting times indeed...hdx100...hmmm...so will we see an hdxuser.com or integrate it into this wonderful site? *:)

by the way, those looking to go to nab, you can still use code: MJ0952 to get into the exhibits hall for free...i tested it this morning...

[Gary_McClurg]

What would be sweet if I can use my matte box and follow focus from my DVX as well.

[J_Barnes]

The brilliance of this is that even if Panasonic were taking a loss on this camera, the very introduction of a 24p HD pro-sumer camera will almost certainly kill HDV as a viable format, just as Sony and others have ramped up production on HDV cameras.

If they can get this to a price point compeditive with the XL2 and Sony's HDV cameras, then Panasonic will once again leap-frog the competition and set the standard everyone else will be scrambling to meet.

[David Jimerson]

Hey just remembered.. does anyone else remember "IT" a few years ago.. the most innovative thing ever, code named Ginger... or "IT". ha ha.. and it turned out to be the Gay Segway... now that is marketing at it's best.

I think it was designed to have thousands of people scream "that's IT?!!!!!"

http://img194.exs.cx/img194/1938/segway8ip.jpg

[Zim]

It will have to be under $5,000 or they will price a lot of people out. $5,000 to $10,000 is not prosumer. Plus you add a $4,000 card. That can't be right!! I can buy 1Gig compactflash cards for $100 or something.

Didn't Sony first talk like the Z1 would be $8,000? Then it came out under $5,000.

[Antoine_Fabi]

my guess is that the HDX100 will be available very soon.

Why ?

because DVCPro50 and DVCProHD are existing formats that are stable,
proven, already compatible with Editing Suites, decks etc...

remember, Sony had to develop the FX around a new format (HDV).

I might be wrong, but i truly feel it will be here soon.
I hope so !

I was going to buy the XL2 because of the ease of working with 16:9, but if the HDX100 rumour is confirmed by Panasonic, i will certainly wait.

[ronik15]

I hope it will be available soon even if I won't be able to afford it if it's over 5 000$

[Gary_McClurg]

Just a crazy thought, but maybe that's why Apple has been slow on the HDV codecs for FCPHD since the Panny codecs are already there.

[Antoine_Fabi]

he he...

not crazy at all Gary !

That's exactly why i think we will see the new camcorder soon.

but again, pure speculation.

[bak]

Hey,

What is shure, from Jan Crittenden@creativecow, is:

"What the Panasonic folks said yesterday was that the camcorder would be under $10,000. Basically they said, under $10,000, 24P, DVCPROHD, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO. They did not say what was to be included with the $10,000."

++

[David Jimerson]

Jan posts here, too.

[mr._guiyotinne]

This is like a boxing combat (wich don´t follow at all). Z1 started to fly not even two weeks ago, XL2 not too much either and now we have this leak...

Wich means that people willing to buy these cameras put the call on hold till NAB, or even cancelled them directly to be faithful to Pana.

Canon and Sony got a big hit in their stomachs! a real painful one! May Pana´s fans feel pity for these buyers... Hehehe...

[bak]

Jan posts here, too.

Hello,

I know but Jan hadn't posted anything about on dvxuser.com (now it's ok in the HD-FX forum)., that's why I put the "source" in my post.

++

[David Jimerson]

This is like a boxing combat (wich don´t follow at all). Z1 started to fly not even two weeks ago, XL2 not too much either and now we have this leak...

Wich means that people willing to buy these cameras put the call on hold till NAB, or even cancelled them directly to be faithful to Pana.

Canon and Sony got a big hit in their stomachs! a real painful one! May Pana´s fans feel pity for these buyers... Hehehe...

I suspect is has far less to do with being "faithful" to Panasonic than it does having a prosumer version of DVCPRO-HD in 24p.

Besides, the XL2 was announced 9 months ago.

[Barry_Green]

I can buy 1Gig compactflash cards for $100 or something.
Yes, and that's where Panasonic is going to have a marketing issue with consumers. Educating them that CompactFlash is nowhere near the same level of technology as the HD-enabled P2 cards. CompactFlash is low-speed memory -- something like 5 megabytes a second, isn't it? Whereas P2 cards, especially the H series, have to support data transfer rates of 640 megabits (80 megabytes) per second. MUCH more expensive technology. But the consumer sees "1gb = $100, why would 4gb = $2000?"

The answer is, there's a reason a JVC HD1 goes for $2,000 and a VariCam goes for $65,000. A world of difference, much higher class of technology. But it's definitely going to be a marketing challenge for Panasonic to adequately explain to the consumer why these P2 cards cost so much more. It's just a whole different class of technology.

[Jeff_Chandler]

$5,000 or they will price a lot of people out. $5,000 to $10,000 is not prosumer

I tend to agree, but on the other hand this cam would have far superior features to any other "Prosumer" cam on the market, so I would expect it to be significantly higher than the Z1. If they come in anywhere close to the price of the Z1, they will have a world beater, and I would be getting very nervous if I was Sony. If it's not released until 2006, that will give us time to save up ;D. Waiting and not jumping into HDV is going to prove to have been a very wise decision. Now, if I can just get that credit limit raised on that credit card...

[Gary_McClurg]

I hope that Barry has his beta model already, ha, ha.
;D ;D
So when the camera hits the market his new or updated book comes with the camera.

[Pascal_Parvex]

The CineAlta images at 1920x1080p, but records at 1440x1080psf.

What is 'psf'? Pixel Shift...? Why is it recorded in lower resolution? What exactly is Pixel Shift? The XL/S has it too, right?

[bgundu]

Have you guys read this link?"

http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_post.php?postid=110803732465870&forumid=162

[Zim]

The palmcorder thing makes me think it will be that star wars camera.

[Shaw]

Never thought I'd see the day when a DVCproHD camera went for under 10K. Damn!

[Zig_Zigman]

I'll say $5995.00 without the cards.

[Zim]

I'll say $4,999

[Rezzie]

We should get a pool going...

[Shaw]

We should have a fund to buy Jarred one of these as soon as they come out for putting up this great website :D.

[Solaam]

*tries jedi mind trick*

It will be $3400 or an even exchange for your current DVX100A.

;D

Peace

[Zoomforce]

We should have a fund to buy Jarred one of these as soon as they come out for putting up this great website *:D.

Thats it.. Mr. Shaw is dvxuser of the month :)

[Barry_Green]

What is 'psf'? Pixel Shift...? Why is it recorded in lower resolution? What exactly is Pixel Shift? The XL/S has it too, right?

psf is Sony's notation for "progressive - segmented frame". I believe HDCAM doesn't record progressive-scan, so when they developed the CineAlta with 24p capability, they had to find a way to record it in their interlaced HDCAM format. IINM, what they do is use PAL scanning of 50hz, but slow it down a little to 48hz, then write out the frame in two chunks... hence, it's a "progressive-scan" frame, but "segmented". In the end it doesn't make a lick of difference, what gets imaged is a progressive-scan frame, and it gets written out to tape in such a way that it can be re-imported and viewed as progressive.

Progressive/Segmented Frame has nothing to do with "pixel shift". Pixel Shift is technology developed by Panasonic and used by Canon and Sony to get higher resolution imaging from a lower resolution device. In 3-CCD DV cameras you get much lower color sampling than you do luminance (black/white) sampling. So in "pixel shift", they move the green CCD about a half-pixel to the side. See, the FX1 only has 960-pixel CCD's. You can't get 1440 pixels from 960, that just doesn't work. So by offsetting the green CCD a half pixel to the side, it provides for even more luma sampling than you'd get just from the straight 960 pixels. Half of 960=480, so by adding the CCD halfway between the 960 pixels they pick up another 480 pixels of luma sampling. 960+480=1440, which is what the Sony FX1 images.

As to why it's recorded in a lower resolution, that's a bandwidth issue. All the major HD recording formats record in lesser resolution than the actual frame size: HDCAM is 1440x1080, HDV is 1440x1080, DVCPRO-HD is 1280x1080.

[xander76]

Well, technically, no... I mean, I hate to out-pedant you, but it all depends on how compliant it is with the DVCPRO-HD standard. *DVCPRO-HD is 100 megabits per second, always. *With 8 channels of uncompressed audio. *That's what the format is.

Lord knows I don't want to enter a pedantry war, especially with the fantastic and ever-helpful Barry Green. At the same time, it seems to me that a DVCPROHD-encoded 720p24 file on disk is still DVCPROHD video despite being 40Mbps. You may disagree, arguing that the data is only actually DVCPROHD video when it is recorded on tape at 100 Mbps, but that seems somewhat narrow to me, especially when the format was designed to add in duplicate data which is meant to be taken out when the tape is fed into an NLE. To argue that this process suddenly makes the video not DVCPROHD seems odd to me, especially when the format was designed with this process in mind. What kind of video is it at that point if not DVCPROHD? Also, Apple handed out a demo DVD last year of DVCPROHD footage when FCP HD was announced, and most (or perhaps all) of it was 40 Mbps files, so I think Apple (and perhaps Panasonic) seem to be OK with referring to 40 Mbps files as DVCPROHD.

That all being said, I fully admit I don't know as much about formats and codecs as many people around this board, and I certainly don't know 5% as much as Barry. I'd be interested to hear if others disagree.


However, there is no DVCPRO-HD device available that records a subsampled 40mbps/2-channel stream.

Unless you count a Varicam hooked up via FireWire to a G5 PowerMac recording directly to disk ;-) .


You have to process it through the Frame Rate Conversion tool to extract out and discard the redundant frames to get to 40mbps.

I've never used the Varicam workflow, so I don't know this stuff first hand, but the article over at kenstone.net claims that this extraction is done automatically on capture. It's like Advanced Pulldown with the DVX. You only have to use the Frame Rate Conversion tool on non-standard frame rates used for slow or fast motion (i.e. anything other than 23.98, 29.97, or 59.94).

http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/dvcpro_hd_workflow_balis.html


It's possible that the P2 card would automatically do that, to optimize storage space, and maybe it would automatically only record two channels of audio to further save space...

I would be flabbergasted if the P2 card recorded a 100 Mbps stream for 24p when a 40 Mbps stream would do. With tape, I understand the engineering reasons for always recording 100 Mbps (essentially, it's really hard to have the tape move at many different speeds). With P2, it seems like it would be harder from an engineering standpoint to record 100 Mbps to the cards, and it would result in lower recording times. I may well be missing something here, but 100 Mbps files on P2 for 24p footage seems like a lose-lose situation.

[dat5150]

"Just under 10k"

To me that means 9-10k.

[xander76]

Whereas P2 cards, especially the H series, have to support data transfer rates of 640 megabits (80 megabytes) per second. *MUCH more expensive technology.

I saw that, and I have to say I didn't understand it. For uncompressed HD, 640 Mbps is great, but this HDX100 camera we're talking about would have data rates that are much, much lower. Even if it records the full DVCPROHD stream at 60p, we're talking about 100Mbps tops.

A $130 Sandisk 1GB Ultra II SD card has a sustained write speed of 9 MBps, or 72 Mbps. Now remember that the P2 card has 4 SD cards RAIDed together, and you should get a theoretical throughput of about 280Mbps. Even accounting for a slow RAID setup, it should be able to support 100Mbps.

We can take it a little further and assume that a prosumer camera is not going to have any frame rates above 30p or 60i (fairly safe in my book) and that the camera will record a scaled down data rate for lower frame rates of DVCPROHD (also a fairly safe assumption in my book, but others will probably disagree). If these two assumptions are correct, then cards for the HDX100 only have to support 50 Mbps, which one $130 SD card can do on its own.

I guess what I'm saying is that, if the ridiculous data throughput requirement of 640 Mbps is what is driving the P2 card costs up, I hope that Panasonic makes cheap slow versions that will work with the HDX100. We'll see.

[Barry_Green]

At the same time, it seems to me that a DVCPROHD-encoded 720p24 file on disk is still DVCPROHD video despite being 40Mbps.
Hey Xander, I'm with you all the way, and I hope that's the way they do it. I just don't know if they will, is all. IINM, this P2 camera will be the first implementation of DVCPRO-HD on something other than tape. Obviously it would be the most user-friendly way to go -- have the "frame rate conversion" happen automatically upon recording -- and it'll mean less throughput necessary, and no wasted space on the card.

I just don't know if that's the way it'll work. But I hope it does.

However, I'm still holding out hope that it'll have the full 60p capability as well. The format's capable of 60p, and I'm hoping that's what we get. Heck, I'm hoping we get *real* variable frame rates, like the VariCam. Will it be able to accomodate all that when writing to the card? We can hope.


Unless you count a Varicam hooked up via FireWire to a G5 PowerMac recording directly to disk ;-) .
Nope, can't do it. No firewire port on the VariCam. Nice try though! :)


I've never used the Varicam workflow, so I don't know this stuff first hand, but the article over at kenstone.net claims that this extraction is done automatically on capture.Yes, it's a software-based version of the hardware Frame Rate Converter. And it's an intelligent decision, the right way to do it. I just hope there's no reason they can't implement it at record time. I don't know if it would mess with the audio or anything...


I would be flabbergasted if the P2 card recorded a 100 Mbps stream for 24p when a 40 Mbps stream would do.
Well, ideally that would be what we'd hope for -- only recording the 40mbps. But there may be technical reasons it's not possible -- who knows, maybe the audio is specified to be interleaved a certain amount in each frame, and by lopping off 60% of the frames that may cause problems with the format... I don't know. I do hope that they are able to implement a space-saving technique such as this!

[Kidster]

Let's face it, if Panasonic gives us a camera that offers 720/24p at 50mbs, and has a killer piece of ass..I mean glass in front of it, and can record to P2 as well as tape. Then it's a absolute STEAL at $10,000. I think if this camera will do all of that, ballgame over for the rest of the competition. Who would buy a mpeg-2 HDV camera then? Why would you want to?

I certainly hope that this comes to market. I am really tired of Sony being big kid on the block and dictating to us that interlace is the only way to go. They have ruled for too long!

[SergejIvanovits]

Let's face it, if Panasonic gives us a camera that offers 720/24p at 50mbs, and has a killer piece of ass..I mean glass in front of it, and can record to P2 as well as tape. Then it's a absolute STEAL at $10,000. !
A wievfinder for a HD camcorder costs like $10,000,- It means if you get a camcorder under 10k you can't expect to get the same as these big brothers has. Sony and Panasonic could give you a camcorder under 10k with all the stuff you want but why should they? Nobody does. They give you only something like a HD or DVCPRO-HD for under $10,000. What Sony did is just to challange others with the Z1U/E. It has everthing they had in the PD's pluss something like a HD for under $5,000.


I certainly hope that this comes to market. I am really tired of Sony being big kid on the block and dictating to us that interlace is the only way to go. They have ruled for too long!It is not Sony but the broadcasters who wants interlace. In US as I know it's something like 19 hd-stations of 23 has 1080i. Sony does what they want and after they did it they force others to follow the concept. If Panasonic could they would do the same but they didn't has that strong position in the market as Sony has.

So I guess it is not too cleaver to dream to much about free meal in this world. If Panasonic gives you a DVCPRO-HD under 10k it will be a compromise like the Z1 is. Jody said the Z1 fits into the HD production and believe it it fits. And if Panasonic doesn't give much much more for the price under 10k than the Z1 gives for under 5k, they gonna loose this game.

I just wonder what they can give us what is not going to hurt the pro market. Better lense is my bigest guess, more serieus body I hope, biger CCD is not one of them. P2 card isn't so much pluss even it is a good solution and I don't count it as a big part of the price because we are going to pay for this extra with buying the P2 card. *

[Zig_Zigman]

1/3 ccd's - that's the compromise.

you want superb resolution and depth of field, you have to go up to 2/3 ccd's and spend 25k.

[NewBee]

Let's face it, if Panasonic gives us a camera that offers 720/24p at 50mbs, and has a killer piece of glass in front of it

But will it have a killer piece of glass? Any ideas on what the lens will look like? Will they significantly improve the Telephoto reach? Man I sure as heck hope so ... and isn't any 1/3" Lens going to be limited in what it can accomplish regardless of the resolution?

[Barry_Green]

No mention of any spec's for the lens have been made. I do hope they continue the Leica relationship, as the lens on the DVX is very very nice.

[Antoine_Fabi]

yes indeed !

It is a very transparent piece of glass from wide angle to full zoom.
If it has 16:9 CCDs then no need to use anamorphic adaptor (works well but limitating the possibility to use full tele and open iris for shallow DOF)

...would be simply perfect ! :) :) :)

[Jaime Valles]

If it has 16:9 CCDs then no need to use anamorphic adaptor (works well but limitating the possibility to use full tele and open iris for shallow DOF)...

Yeah, but if you DO use the Anamorphic adapter WITH the native 16x9, then you'd get CINEMASCOPE!!!! IN DVCPRO-HD!!!!

[mr._guiyotinne]

Oh, MAN! ... CINEMASCOPE! This is worth make people frenzy. Sorry hehe, this WILL make people frenzy! :o

I´m just imagine how the next generation of indie films are going to look like! People will have to turn the head to follow the film like in a tenis match!

[TimurCivan]

u get cinema scope but its distorted. im not sure but ithink you can only get cinema scope by cropping. Otherwise you can get cinema scope with a DVX100A using sqeezemode and an anamorphic, and that does not work.

[Kenn_Christenson]

Century Optics is already working on an anamorphic lens for Sony's FX-1 & Z-1. The image will either have to be unsqueezed and letter boxed for 4:3 / 16:9 or squeezed an additional 1.33x for scanning to 35mm film.

[Zig_Zigman]

Not to chill the vibe, but "cinemascope" in 1/3 ccd cams blown up to film...would look pretty crappy.

Even the sony f900 has issues with big long distance vistas.

But someone will probably try to shoot a western anyway... ::)

[Jan_Crittenden]

If Panasonic gives you a DVCPRO-HD under 10k it will be a compromise like the Z1 is. Jody said the Z1 fits into the HD production and believe it it fits. And if Panasonic doesn't give much much more for the price under 10k than the Z1 gives for under 5k, they gonna loose this game.
*

Frankly interframe compression, 4:2:2 color space, uncompressed audio, and real 24P will surpass the HDV format any day. Oh and edit systems that work in the native codec, today. I think when it all comes out, this will be the hottest camera in the marketplace. I wish I could tell you all more, but soon it will be clear.

Best regards,

Jan

[Rich Lee]

its gonna be the best thing ever...until panasonic comes out with something better...im excited...cant wait!

peace out homies!

ps...i will shite my pants if it can do 60p....which even if it doesnt its all good cause i wont have to shite my pants...but if it does, and i shite my pants, i wont be so bummed about having to wash up my shite-ed bottom and pants...

peace out again homies!

:D

[Rich Lee]

hmm...im a spaz....when you record 24p on dvcpro...does it still do the whole 2332 pulldown stuff?

[seantree]

WOW. Too good. I cannot wait for the final specs/release info.

[Gary_McClurg]

Thanks, Jan

My best guess I think the camera will cost around the same as the Z1. What the $10,000 is going to cover is the P2 cards, docking station, etc. I think it'll record the HD to the tape. It'll have to until P2 cards come down for those who want to shoot in HD but can't afford the cards yet.

I think it will be the hot camera. 24p on a HD codec that's proven.

When I emailed a friend about the goodies listed in Jan's post. He said forget the Sony wait for the Panny. That'll blow Sony out of the water.

[boo]

Frankly interframe compression, 4:2:2 color space, uncompressed audio, and real 24P will surpass the HDV format any day. *Oh and edit systems that work in the native codec, today. *I think when it all comes out, this will be the hottest camera in the marketplace. *I wish I could tell you all more, but soon it will be clear.

Best regards,

Jan




well if you pm each and everyone of us dvxusers the details, we won't let anyone know... :-X ;) ;D

[Barry_Green]

hmm...im a spaz....when you record 24p on dvcpro...does it still do the whole 2332 pulldown stuff?
Sort of. On tape, it duplicates frames in the Varicam. The VariCam's CCD runs at variable scanning rates, from 4 to 60 frames per second, but the DVCPRO-HD tape always records at 60p. So if you chose to shoot at 30p, the camera would scan a new frame 30 times per second, but the tape requires 60 frames per second, so each frame gets duplicated (and flagged for removal). Whn shooting 24fps on the Varicam, the CCD runs at 24Hz, and it produces 24 pictures per second, but the tape still needs to record 60 frames per second. So every even frame gets written to tape twice, and every odd frame gets written three times (2:3 pulldown, basically, but frame-based, not field-based). When captured, the FCP tool can do a software-based Frame Rate Conversion, which discards all the duplicated frames and leaves only the individually-imaged frames. So yes, it's basically like 24PA/2:3:3:2... in fact, the VariCam is likely what inspired Panasonic to invent 24P on the DVX.

[Rezzie]

Just out of curiousity, does the FCP frame-rate converter automatically detect whatever frame-rate you shot with, or do you have to set it up to capture specific frame-rates? If it automatically detects it, can you capture footage with different frame-rates during one capture?

[Rich Lee]

gotcha, thanks barry....one more Q...do you capture first, then discard the duplicate frames? or are flags raised during the capture that discard duped frames.

you the man now dawg!

[Barry_Green]

I'm sure it depends on the way the camera records the footage, and the way the capture software works.

On tape, all 60 frames are captured every time. But the speculation is that the camera, since it's writing to P2 cards, may discard the whole duplicate-frame issue when writing the data to the memory card. That would mean the capture software would be -- well, irrelevant, actually. The camera WOULD BE the capture card, because the data would be written as a computer-readable file to the P2 card. The P2 card acts basically as a solid-state hard disk, so the potential exists that writing to the P2 card is basically the same as if you'd captured in the video from tape -- the result is a computer-readable data file. With a P2 card you just plug the card into your computer and you can edit right from the card, or you can copy the contents of the card onto a hard disk, or -- get this -- with the SPX800 P2 camera, you can plug the camera into the computer through a USB2 cable, and the computer will recognize the camera as if it was a hard disk! So you can edit from the camera, using the camera itself (and all the cards that are plugged into it) as a big external hard disk!

Okay, so back to capturing and frame rate conversion -- um, I don't really know when it's done, but I believe that Apple provides a software Frame Rate Conversion utility. I would guess that it would be employed after capture, but I'm not an FCP user so I can't answer that question.

[Rezzie]

Thanks, Barry!

"with the SPX800 P2 camera, you can plug the camera into the computer through a USB2 cable, and the computer will recognize the camera as if it was a hard disk! So you can edit from the camera, using the camera itself (and all the cards that are plugged into it) as a big external hard disk!"

Wow, this P2 technology continues to impress me!

[GregJacobson]

If the Panny is 720p then it will have about 20% more resolution than deinterlaced FX1/Z1 footage?

[redindian]

I think it'll record the HD to the tape. *It'll have to until P2 cards come down for those who want to shoot in HD but can't afford the cards yet.


If one cant afford that cards, and HDX100 does HD only on these cards.... then it makes sense to buy a different camera...(like say, DVX)

whats the point of buying a rocket-charged car if you cant afford rocket fuel ? ::) stick with gas until rocket fuel gets cheaper... so that u dont pay extra for the features u cant use...

at present rate... 4-5 minutes of HD footage on $2000 4 gig card...?? is that a joke ? i can shoot 10minutes of video on my PHONE... hmmm.... maybe, with a slightly lesser quality ;D

seriously, very cool - but affordable only in 2007/8- by that time next cool cam will be out...
but i hope this HDX is under 5K and write to some sort of (new)tape...

also, as a still photographer...connecting to computer and controlling was cool when Nikon/Canon introduced it years back... use camera as external harddrive, focus, shutter release, edit inline... blah blah... even wireless data transfer (with nikon D2H)... cool on paper... v impractical in the field... unless confined to studio ....

[xander76]

Okay, so back to capturing and frame rate conversion -- um, I don't really know when it's done, but I believe that Apple provides a software Frame Rate Conversion utility. *I would guess that it would be employed after capture, but I'm not an FCP user so I can't answer that question.

I've never done this, but I just read an article on kenstone.net about it:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/dvcpro_hd_workflow_balis.html

According to the article, in FCP "standard" frame rates (24, 30, and 60) can be selected for capture, and then duplicate frames are never written to disk. For other frame rates, you have to capture the footage as 60fps and then use the Frame Rate Conversion tool later on to strip out the extra frames.

As for multiple frame rates, you can evidently record multiple rates on one tape, but you should capture them separately.

[xander76]

at present rate... 4-5 minutes of HD footage on $2000 4 gig card...?? is that a joke ?

Agreed that the price is ridiculous, but I think it's not quite as bad as you think. If the camera is 720p and only records unique data to the P2 card (i.e. doesn't record duplicate frames to artificially create a 60fps stream), then the 4GB card will hold about 10 minutes of 30p and 12 minutes of 24p footage. Still not great, but actually better than a lot of film cameras, especially if the camera has 2-4 P2 slots.

[Rezzie]

I've never done this, but I just read an article on kenstone.net about it:
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/dvcpro_hd_workflow_balis.html

According to the article, in FCP "standard" frame rates (24, 30, and 60) can be selected for capture, and then duplicate frames are never written to disk. For other frame rates, you have to capture the footage as 60fps and then use the Frame Rate Conversion tool later on to strip out the extra frames.

As for multiple frame rates, you can evidently record multiple rates on one tape, but you should capture them separately.

Thanks for the link, xander76.

[Gary_McClurg]

If does hold up to 12 minutes per card that would equal a 1,000 foot load of 35mm film, and as your shooting you can download the other card to your hard drive.

I've been wondering if it can record to the card and tape at the same time. That way you'd always have a tape back up if something happen.

[PaulC]

Yeah, the problem with P2 at these price levels is that you have to bring an archival system with you, 60 GB drive solutions notwithstanding. Not too convenient if you're out for a not-so-short period of time. It will be interesting to see if the HD records to tape at all. With some of the video codec formats, would it even be possible to record HD video to DV tape (which maxes out at 25 Mbps, right?)?? I'm expecting that the HD will only go to P2, but would like to see if any alternatives are possible.

[Barry_Green]

If the Panny is 720p then it will have about 20% more resolution than deinterlaced FX1/Z1 footage?

If the Panny is 720p then it will have about 20% more resolution than deinterlaced FX1/Z1 footage?
Well, it depends on how you define resolution. And how you de-interlace.

The Sony claims 1080i resolution, but you do *not* get 1080 individual discrete pixels of resolution, you get more like 775. So if you do a straight de-interlace of 1080i footage, doubling the fields, you'd end up with a resolution on tape of somewhere around 1440 x 388, for a pixel count of about 560,000.

The Panasonic can only be speculated as to what it can do, because it doesn't exist yet. However, since Jan has already confirmed 24p, and since DVCPRO-HD records in either 1080/60i or in 720/60p, it's probably a safe bet to guess that the camera will be using the 720p mode. Because it's progressive, and because Panasonic's already shown innovation in de-activating the interlace blend filter when going to progressive-scan mode, we can probably expect that the camera will be able to resolve 720 individual scan lines. Which means an on-tape resolution of perhaps 960x720, for a pixel count of about 700,000.

HOWEVER: that's guessing that you'd use a straight field-drop de-interlace. You don't necessarily have to do that -- if you use CineFrame 25 or CineFrame 30, it appears to give you a full field of information, 540 lines. That would give you a pixel count on tape of 1440x540, or about 778,000.

Then there's the prospect of using something like DVFilm Maker software, which can use "smart de-interlacing" to only cut resolution on areas that show movement. That means sometimes you'd have 775 lines, but sometimes 388.

So by raw pixel counts, they're both in the same ballpark as each other. But this ignores one VERY IMPORTANT factor: compression. On shots with motion, HDV resolves much less resolution than it does on static shots. How much less? Depends on how much detail and motion is in the shot. I've seen the codec fall apart, but I've also seen it look pretty razor-sharp. So that's a variable you just can't account for yet. And it can bite you when you least expect it.

Furthermore, there's the compounding factor of: how does CF25/CF30 affect the compression? It's my guess that since the image has less overall detail than an interlaced frame, the compression should be more efficient, meaning that it's less likely to "fall apart" or soften up. So there may be circumstances where you actually get more ACTUAL resolution from CF25 than you would from interlaced! I don't know that that can actually happen, but in theory I can see how it'd be possible.

Okay, so what does all this mean? Nothing at all. Just fun with numbers. Until we can stack the cameras side-by-side, it's all just speculation...

[natob2]

I think Panny knows the market of potential HDX100 users very well. If the camera is good enough, people who were originally prepared to spend $4k on a DVX100 will find a way to shell out $6k, $8k, $10k on an HDX100. In addition to this, its going to hit a market of buyers who have no problem at all spending $10k+ on an HD camera, that will be an absolutely steal to them.

And for P2 cards...I think this technology will drop in price in the next few years where a 8GB card cost what a Digibeta tape cost today. It will definitely become an archival format and those manufacturering it will make some nice money.

[Flintstone]

And for P2 cards...I think this technology will drop in price in the next few years where a 8GB card cost what a Digibeta tape cost today. *It will definitely become an archival format and those manufacturering it will make some nice money.
I don't think P2 cards are at all viable as an archival format. Maybe if the price of a 64GB unit costs less then $20... but I don't think we'll see that within the next 5 years... But it would be nice if I'm be wrong. ;D

[ddh]

If you consider that 5 years ago a 250GB hard disk running at 7200 was only available in a seagate raid SCSI set-up and is now standard without SCSI, I think P2 is going to advance very quickly.

[Flintstone]

I certainly hope you are right! Sonner then later would be preferable.

I also hope that Pany will not cripple the DVCProHD specs on the HDX100 in any way. 1/3" is already bad enough, as it will surely hamper low light performance for events where lighting the scene is not always an option. Although it will probably not be as bad as the FX1 (1080 on 1/3" vs. 720 on 1/3"). I guess we'll see.

[scharky]

I don't think this camera is aimed towards the event videographer. I'm sure that it will have provisions to be used as an event camera, but every single thing about this camera screems film making only.

[Flintstone]

I don't think this camera is aimed towards the event videographer. *I'm sure that it will have provisions to be used as an event camera, but every single thing about this camera screems film making only.
Sharky, I'm affraid you're right. But it would be a mistake to limit the scope of this cam; afterall 60p (other then for doing nice slow moes for 24p shoots) is a perfect frame rate choice for event and sports videography. Alas, P2 cards are too restrictive for long form events (but well suited for filmmakers). That is why some form of direct to disk recording (such as the Firestore) would be mandatory.

[Shaw]

I think that's where the direct to disk recording will come into play.

[Jan_Crittenden]

Frankly interframe compression, 4:2:2 color space, uncompressed audio, and real 24P will surpass the HDV format any day. *


Correction folks, it is intraframe compression, which means within the frame. Sorry, Interframe compression is MPEG.

Best regards,

Jan

[David Jimerson]

Sharky, I'm affraid you're right. *But it would be a mistake to limit the scope of this cam; afterall 60p (other then for doing nice slow moes for 24p shoots) is a perfect frame rate choice for event and sports videography. *Alas, P2 cards are too restrictive for long form events (but well suited for filmmakers). *That is why some form of direct to disk recording (such as the Firestore) would be mandatory.

You could be right, Fred, but that's Panasonic's problem. :)

[Flintstone]

You could be right, Fred, but that's Panasonic's problem. * :)

Which then in turn becomes ours. But then, perhaps some of us expect too much from a company that has given us so much already. ::)

[David Jimerson]

Which then in turn becomes ours. *But then, perhaps some of us expect too much from a company that has given us so much already. *::)

I don’t know why it would become our problem. If it turns out to be the fantastic indie filmmaker’s tool that it looks like it could be, it matters not at all to me that it isn’t suited to the event videographer. If the line fails because it isn’t versatile in that way, it doesn’t keep it from being a great tool for filmmaking. Once I got mine (if indeed I decide it suits my needs), frankly, I don’t care if Panasonic takes a bath on it.

[Flintstone]

I was saying that because I do event videography too! *:-/

[David Jimerson]

I see. I thought your statement was more generally geared toward the wisdom of the cam’s features vis-à-vis the market and potential market share.

It’s true; it might not be an event videographer’s cam – but that’s prob’ly not the niche they’re going for.

[mr._guiyotinne]

Thinking about it i realized that maybe at the beggining it wont be an event camera, but looking at charts in pana´s place they showed that probably in three, four years they will have like 128 GB P2.

It means: By now HD isn´t a standard broadcast media and there are no so much sold TVs, but maybe in three to four years it will be, and people will start ask for this format. I think is wise if Pana choose this, because then HDV will be ripe like an avocado to be a best-seller in consumer-prosumer market and lot of them will be sold in advance! Not like other cameras that will be new on the block and will have to find their public. As example any Sony HD they get out.

Just now only indie filmakers and technollogy freaks (proud to be one of them) will get it and keep the P2s moving ahead.

What do you think of this?

I have to say that in Spain the word freak or as we say frikie is not a peyorative word anymore, instead is somethig to be praised looking around these snobish we have around. I love to be a frikie.

[mr._guiyotinne]

i didnt mean HDV, i meant HDX... fast writing, you know... plus, i´m starting to get little confused wich so manyh names...

[Flintstone]

I see. *I thought your statement was more generally geared toward the wisdom of the cam’s features vis-à-vis the market and potential market share.

It’s true; it might not be an event videographer’s cam – but that’s prob’ly not the niche they’re going for.
Well, all this is pure speculation anyway! *And we won't know for sure until NAB2005. *But here's to hoping. *;)

I do corporate vids also, which basically falls into the filmmaking category when it comes to setup. *So I guess I'll end up with 2 different kind of cams if the HDX can't cut it for low light events? *:-/