Something new from JVC too and more Pana tidbits

[bgundu]

Stumbled across this link:

http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=1426

[Jack_Felis]

So, no DVCPRO-HD 50mbps on tape? Only exppensive P2 cards and no option for recording it onto tape? WTF?! Well, this camera will go on my "To Buy Later"-list if that's how things turn out.

[Barry_Green]

Well, first of all, let's keep in mind that there is only *one source* who knows anything reliable, and she ain't talking. So anything posted anywhere has got to be taken with a grain of salt.

Secondly, it said DVCPRO-HD at 50mbps -- never heard of that. I doubt it. DVCPRO-HD is 100 megabits. If they do only run at 720/30p, I guess an argument can be made to say that the recording on card would then only have to be 50mbps... but I don't know that I would believe that for a second, not until Jan confirms or denies it. Third, they're claiming that the camera also does 1080i? 720p and 1080i in the same camera? That's... well, that's the first I've heard of anything remotely anything like that. That would be an absolutely stunning development, if true -- then the FX1/Z1 would have *no advantage* whatsoever in imaging capability. Is it true? Is it hogwash? Who knows? Maybe they're just saying that it can upconvert 720p to 1080i...

Like I say, there's only one person who knows, and she ain't talking, not until April 18th (or whenever NAB starts).

Just everyone keep in mind that it's all rumor and speculation at this point, nobody knows anything factual or concrete except for the very few things Jan has confirmed: 24p, DVCPRO-HD, DVCPRO50, DVCPRO, P2 recording capability, and priced competitive with the Sony. Any comment other than that is unconfirmed speculation.

[ccroo]

Apologies for a stupid question but is DVCPRO Panasonic for DV or DVCAM?

Thanks
Raoul

[taubkin]

DVCPRO is a lot of things.

Basically DVCPRO 25 is analog to DVCAM, DVCPRO50 to digiBeta, and DVCPRO100 to HDCAM. But I think DVCPRO100 is more compressed than HDCAM.

[SimonMW]

Well, Jan did say on DVinfo that DVCproHD cannot be recorded onto MiniDV tape because it just isn't up to the job.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if this new camera was DV25 out of the box, but can record DVCpro50 and HD by adding the P2 cards. This is where I think the under $10,000 price thing comes in. I think that the camera itseld may well retail for $4000 or thereabouts, but the P2 cards will cost users another $4000 odd so that they can record HD.

I don't see much wrong with that (other than the price of P2) because it does at least mean that Panasonic are not sacrificing bitrates just to get the footage onto a tiddly little tape.

Even HD at $10,000 is cheap. Plus despite the expense, imagine the benefits you'll have when it comes to editing with P2 over the Z1's tape transfer!

[Jaime Valles]

Good point, SimonMW. *We can all continue using the "HDX" as a MiniDV upgrade to the DVX with native 16x9 to do any "regular" work for DVD or the web, but if we need it to, can also shoot in HD for stuff destined to be distributed in broadcast HD or theatrical release.

Choice is good. *If you want HD, you can now get it for "under $10,000". *If not, then *don't pay for the P2 cards. *Sounds reasonable to me.

[David Jimerson]

Doesn’t seem like the most reliable of posts, in any case. “Friend of a friend” stuff; “I know more but I can’t tell” . . . well, you told that much, so why not?

[SimonMW]

Sure, but speculation is interesting.

We know that MiniDV tape would never cope with DVCproHD, but we do know that the new camera has P2. So it seems a reasonable assumption.

DVCproHD, with the possibility of attaching an anamorphic lens on the front of an already 16:9 picture at those kinds of datarates will be fantastic for film out even if it does cost $10,000 to do it. I don't like the cost of P2, but I'll be honest and say that this is the kind of camera that indies have been waiting for. Not the FX1 or Z1.

Course Panasonic could come along and throw water over my speculation, but Jan (an official Panasonic rep) has already said that it WILL record DVCproHD and 50 as well as standard DVCpro. So already we know it will do HD resolution at 100m/bit rates. That in itself is a huge, huge revolution/evolution in the indie moviemaking world.

[Jack_Felis]

Well, I guess I could just buy an external hard drive arrray and record the video with my Alienware laptop from the two P2 cards. What was it? 4gb for 30 seconds to 1 minute? Good for one take each time unless this thing has firewire out or something (not likely though because of 100MBps), I guess.

[Loki]

Jack, Firewire is 400Mbps(50MB/sec)... It could easily handle it :)

and firewire 800 is 800Mbps....100MB/sec... huge transfer speeds/bandwidth

[oleg]

next time that someone reinvent camera rig - please make it from leptop :-)

[Jaime Valles]

Jack, Firewire is 400Mbps(50MB/sec)... It could easily handle it :)

and firewire 800 is 800Mbps....100MB/sec... huge transfer speeds/bandwidth

Good point. Screw the P2 cards, and just bring along a laptop hooked up to a 250GB external FW drive. Wouldn't that give you several hours of continuous HD recording? Or am I missing something?

[Zig_Zigman]

this guy says it records BOTH dvcpro50 and dvcpro_HD at 50 mbps...that strikes me as odd...just a software toggle?

It def would suck if you HAD to have the P2 cards to record anything other than 25bps....Well there will be more net leaks as we go.


This is really the adult version of "shaking the package" at Xmas.

[richj]

I think this comment from SimonMW sounds very reasonable:

"It wouldn't surprise me at all if this new camera was DV25 out of the box, but can record DVCpro50 and HD by adding the P2 cards. *This is where I think the under $10,000 price thing comes in."

There has also been mention of a portable hard drive device to offload the P2 cards. This would be similar to using the P2 cards as magazines as we do in film, and "downloading" the film into cans after being shot. This is fine for narrative work and ok for documentary work as the size of these P2 cards increase. I suppose for docos you'd need an assistant to handle this while you shoot. Actually, Panasonic announced such a device a few days ago:

see PANASONIC UNVEILS RUGGED AJ-PCS060 DVCPRO P2 STORE at the bottom
http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelList?storeId=11301&catalogId=13251&catGroupId =31651

or here
http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=30722

The press release doesn't have any pictures and says its a 60GB 2.5" (think laptop) hard drive, but doesn't say if its one of the new 60GB 2.5" running at 7200RPM. Maybe the 5400 or even slower is fast enough. Also, the press release doesn't specifically say that this device will handle DVCPRO-HD. Price is a question mark, too.

I think this is a good idea. But I would like to be able to also offload the P2 card onto a Blu-Ray disc. I would rather backup to a 50GB blu-ray disc than unprotected hard drives. Hopefully we will have recordable 50GB blu-ray discs at a reasonable price (under USD$25 each) within a year. But that's just my hope. I remember reading in a Camcorderinfo.com article that Panasonic has plans to come out with a HD blu-ray camcorder (I would guess in mpeg2 or the new mpeg4 AVC). Blu-ray might not be fast enough (35Mbps?) to record DVCPRO50 or DVCPRO-HD in a camera, but it would be a great, cheap backup alternative to tape/hard drive. Especially if they can make a little battery-powered P2/Blu-ray backup recorder for the field.

And I wouldn't pay too much attention to an anonymous post on an internet message board from someone who claims their friend has some inside scoop.

I think this camera will be great. I wonder if they can get a good cheap HD zoom lens to put on it that'll keep up with the pixels. Will have to wait and see. :) If they do include a miniDV (25Mbps) tape mechanism, I'd be happy just to rent the P2 cards when needed. If camera rental houses are interested in offering them, that is.

[Barry_Green]

Oh, superb -- so the hard disk P2-reader is true! Excellent! I think this is an even better solution than the FireStore, because the drive isn't tied to the camera -- no need to rely on a relatively fragile firewire connection!

Hope it's affordable, I didn't see any mention of price in the press release. That could be fantastic... each 60gb drive could hold an hour's worth of full-rez 60p or 60i DVCPRO-HD, and if it's true that the camera will only record the individually-discrete frames, it could store two and a half hours of full-rez 24P DVCPRO-HD... most excellent!

[bgundu]

AJ-PCS060 is only for PC's!!!!! That's just weird.

[Jan_Crittenden]

this guy says it records BOTH dvcpro50 and dvcpro_HD at 50 mbps...that strikes me as odd...just a software toggle?


DVCPROHD is 100Mbs, not 50. DVCPRO50 is 50. Where people start to get confused is on the variable frame rate stuff, as the recorder is recording at 60 frames per second, but if out of that 60 frames, at 100Mbs, I am only using 24/60th the data rate does go down once you have done the extraction.

Make sense?

Jan

[Zig_Zigman]

Thanks, J! It will all make sense once I see the real specs!

;D

[braw]

So does that mean that you would be using 40 MBs at 24p? Do you mean 100 MBs at 60p or 60i...does it matter interlaced or progressive? *???

[xander76]

So does that mean that you would be using 40 MBs at 24p? Do you mean 100 MBs at 60p or 60i...does it matter interlaced or progressive? *???

At 720p60, DVCPROHD is 100Mbps, so yes, the effective data rate at 720p24 is 40Mbps.

As far as I can tell, interlaced DVCPROHD is only supported in 1080 flavors, and progressive is only supported in 720 flavors. The two 1080 flavors, 1080i50 and 1080i60, don't seem to have the frame doubling thing that the 720p flavors do, so it seems that they always have an effective data rate of 100 Mbps.

By the way, note that we're talking about megabits per second (Mbps) rather than megabytes per second (MBps); the capitalization (or non-capitalization) of the "b" is important. I hate to be a stickler, but it can cause significant misunderstandings when one is mistaken for the other.

[braw]

By the way, note that we're talking about megabits per second (Mbps) rather than megabytes per second (MBps); the capitalization (or non-capitalization) of the "b" is important. *I hate to be a stickler, but it can cause significant misunderstandings when one is mistaken for the other.

So are the P2 cards 4Gb or 4GB? Gigagabits would mean at 24p, you get almost 1 minute 42 seconds right? Gigabyte means 13 minutes 39 seconds? So I imagine it has to be GB. ???

[Jan_Crittenden]

So I imagine it has to be GB. *???


GB

[Jan_Crittenden]

So does that mean that you would be using 40 MBs at 24p? Do you mean 100 MBs at 60p or 60i...does it matter interlaced or progressive? *???


The VariCam always records at 720/60P. It is a progressive capture and a progressive recording. In 24P mode there is a standard 2:3 pulldown made so that you have lots of extra frames. When you extract those frames, you have 24/60 of the data, or 40Mbs.

Did that help?

Jan

[braw]

I see. So the tape records 100 Mbps all the time, but if you extract at 24, like in FCP, it would only be 40 Mbps. So there really isn't a way to record at 24 to tape.

[xander76]

Right, but no one knows what will happen when 24p footage is recorded to P2. Many folks assume that:

(a) the camera will be 720p, and
(b) recording to P2 will not record extra frames, so 24p footage will only take 40Mbps.

This makes sense because the reason that the Varicam records the extra frames is presumably because its video tape runs at a constant speed of 100Mbps, or 60fps. With P2, there is no similar restriction to have the same data rate for all frame rates.

As Barry Green eloquently points out, though, we have no idea if either (a) or (b) will be the case, since we haven't had either conjecture confirmed from anyone at Panasonic. It's all speculation and educated guesses right now.

[braw]

Isn't it fun though. I think the most level headed realistic speculation is probably close, but I'll bet there's some surprises when they do announce it. ;D

[ddh]

I think in the end even if you are recording to P2 cards and they are relative expensive and you can get DVProHD at 24p without the 3-2 pulldown you are getting very good quality for the expense! Hope the tele-extension of the HD cam is a bit better than X10.

[Gary_McClurg]

So, Jan.

Will the new camera shoot at 720/60P also? (found the answer, maybe)

Forgot about the Panny web site about p2 cards.

I know its a chart but it looks like the 8gb cards will be here this year is that so?

Also can you put the AJ-PCD10 drives in a MAC or have an external kit for it if does?

[redindian]

When you extract those frames, you have 24/60 of the data, or 40Mbs.

Did that help?

Jan

so just to clarify - 100mbs is not 100mbs at all ? The real data is only 40Mbs - and rest 60Mbs is just junk data pad up to make it 100megs.

so 100mbs is a glossy marketing term ? :o

so someone cud pad up 100mb more...and call it new 200mbs recording... ::)

[icicle22]

I think the theory is that 100mbs is the data rate when shooting 60frames per second. Take 100 and divide by 60 and you get 1.6mbits for each discrete frame. Then take 1.6mbits and mutiply by 24fps and you get 40mbs. That is where that number comes from. This is based on a constant size for each frame. 30p would be 30x1.6 and would give you 48 or 50mbs.

Just like on the DVX100....you were only shooting 24 frames but they didn't get a bigger chunk of the 3.6MB per second bandwidth. However on mpg encoding for DVD a 24P encoded clip will have more data per frame than a 30P since the bandwidth is divided between 24 frames instead of 30.

So once again shooting 24P will save you space on your storage media as well as render time.

The real question is does the new cam just record these 24 discrete frames or does it do a PullDown cadence thingy like the dvx, therefore using up more storage on the card? We'll see I guess!

[braw]

I belive if you shoot 60p you'd get 100Mbps. Am I wrong here?

[Shaw]

Well it's only junk padding when shooting at a frame rate other than 60fps. You can shoot 60 full frames with the varicam and it will fully utilize the data.

[Barry_Green]

All these answers are correct. In 60i, the data rate is 100 megabits, to encode 60 fields. In 720p, the data rate is 100 megabits, to encode 60 progressive frames. If shooting at other than 60p, a DVCPRO-HD camera will add duplicate frames into the data stream to "pad" it to 60p, because that's what the tape records. Shooting at a frame rate of 30p would result in 60 frames on tape, each 30p frame having been written twice.

So the speculation is, will the camera still bother recording these duplicated frames when writing to P2 memory? I think it's safe to say that we all hope not, and that it will only write the frames we need, which will result in quite a space savings. 30p shooting (if it supports 30p) would require 50 megabits of bandwidth, and 24p shooting (and we know it will support 24p) would require 40 megabits of bandwidth. Only if shooting 60p (and we don't know if it can do that) would you need all 100 megabits of bandwidth.

Unless, as I pointed out earlier, there is some technical limitation on why it might need to record 100mbps. On tape the recording is always 100mbps, I don't know if they can somehow make more efficient use of space when recording to memory cards. I'm hoping they will.

I wonder if it'll support firewire streaming of HD data, and if so, if it'll need to be the full 100mbps? If it could somehow stream the 40mbps/24p version, that would be very interesting, maybe a FireStore or something could be designed that could support that data rate...

[Neil Rowe]

..im sure if it does record at 24p with only 40 mbps in the files that it will be able to TX via some sort of computer interface directly to the PC/MAC ...likely firewire. becasue we know the p2 cards act just like ram drives and you can access them like an external drive from the PC, so really all you would be doing is a file transfer. and the actuall mbps of the data stream in the file is a non issue if your just transferring the file to your machine.

[icicle22]

I am not worried about actuall speed of transfer but storage. You could store over 2x as much footage recorded onto a P2 card in 24P if the technology allows us to bypass the 100mbs required for DVCPROHD tape format. If we could cut out all of the padding we'd get a lot more for our money as far as P2 storage is concerned.

And I think Barry's comment about a firewire transfer was for realtime recording. Not for transfer after the card is full.

[Barry_Green]

You don't need any sort of special cable or firewire transfer speed or anything... the P2 card will plug directly into a laptop and act like an external hard disk! You can just copy the files straight off it.

For a desktop, is there a PC Card reader available? That can cnnect Cardbus cards? If so, that again would be the workflow -- slap the P2 card right in your desktop and copy the files off. No worries about transfer speed, it'll transfer as fast as the computer can handle.

For firewire, I think icicle22 understood what I meant -- I was hoping that if the camera supports firewire streaming of the P2 data, that you could then use that with a Firestore type of device, or direct connection to a "super" version of DV Rack -- DVHD Rack maybe? ;D

[Shaw]

Don't these things fit into PCMCIA slots? You should be able to get one for your computer no problem.

[xray]

Hope the new cam shoots 25 P too. I like the Sony Z1 concept to create one camera for both markets (50/60hz). This also is a strong argument and 'proof of believe' in the interlaced/progressive battle.

Further more, you can't keep a rumour alive for longer than three months without a delivery date. A mockup was already shown last year. So speculation or not, NAB will give us a date or a product.

[Barry_Green]

Okay, yes, that is a cool concept, and I do think Sony did something very nifty by making one worldwide model.

So... as long as we're throwing gasoline on the fire, how 'bout the new camera records 60p, but provides variable frame rates like the VariCam? Now how would THAT rule the world! You'd get 24p, 25p, 50p and 60p, so it would indeed be one worldwide standard. (oh, you'd also get 26p, 27p, 33p, 40p, 8p, 9p, whatever you want...)

I'm pretty sure that if it doesn't support variable scanning like that, then there will likely definitely be a model for the European market that supports 25p. Panasonic and Sony seem engaged in a death struggle for the future of broadcast in Europe, which is WHY Sony didn't include progressive on the FX1/Z1 -- they're trying to convince the EBU to adopt 1080i as the broadcast standard (even though the EBU seems to be really favoring 720p). So it would be very, very much in Panasonic's best interest to produce a camera that does killer video in 720p/50 (or at least 720p/25, frame-doubled to 720p/50).

I can't see how they won't do this. So either there'll be two versions (as we've always had, one for EurAsia, one for Pacific Rim) or there'll be one variable-scanning, but either way it seems very likely that you'll get 25p, if not 50p.

[Flintstone]

(even though the EBU seems to be really favoring 720p.
I wasn't aware of that. This is interesting! This means that Pany has a lot at stake with the upcoming HDX. So "arbitrarily" crippling it with prosumer limitations in order to save Varicam sales, might not be in their best interest too. That will benefit us all. Hope I’m right!

[Neil Rowe]

..lol sorry misunderstood ya barry, yeah that would be great if it could stream over firewire to a hard disk solution. espescially if someone makes a hard disk solution that lets you swap the drive out so you can put in a 400gb drive or whatever and not fiddle with the kiddie sized 80 gig ones they useually come with.

..its hard for me to understand sometimes why there is so much belief that a company would limit features on a cheaper cam in order to save sales of a larger one.. im sure its done somtimes.. but sometimes it may not be in their best interest.. the best interest of the company is the bottom dollar. not whether or not they sell 20 more varicams a year simply because its the "top dog" in their camera line. if the less expensive cam sells 50,000 more units cause its so darn good and less varicams sell the company still makes more money. and they make cameras to make money. if you give people what they want at a price they can afford you will make money.. alot of it. so there comes a certain point when "protecting the big cameras" certainly is not in ANYones best interest. if you can make a cheaper cam with alot of the same features.. why not? the big gun studios arent going to switch to using anything less than the best, and will still get varicams for the stuff they want absolute quality on. the only real difference is that alot of people that rent hi def would just buy the cheaper cam , and the manufacturer would take a lrage chunk of market.. same thing that happend with the DVX. alot of things that people wouldve normally only done with a rented hi-def camera or film (cause only they had 24p before) were done on purchased DVX.. alot of money out of other rental companies pockets but i dont think the DVX stopped any varicam sales in the least. and i dont think if it was high def it woudlve either. and even if it did, and the company makes a killing because of it.. then why would they care? thats like turing down a deposit of 100 pennies into your account for a shiney quarter to be put in instead... just because quarters are "bigger and better".

[Flintstone]

I'm in complete agreement with you Neil, it's just that this is what usually happens, and that really pisses me off. You'd think that if they sold 50,000 minis vs 20 large, that would be justification enough.

I've always had a big issue with the price gap between prosumer and professional models. Meaning that I would seriously be willing to buy a $10K model with DVCPro50, DigiBeta, IMX, SX or whatever the format that supports 4:2:2 recording, with 1/2" 16x9 CCDs, in a DVX style form factor. I mean the technology has been around, and it is not fiscally impossible to scale it down for the high-end prosumer market.

$25K and up is what you have to pay if you want 4:2:2 SD. And that's with no glass, no batteries and a shitty microphone if it comes with one. I don't have a huge budget, but for affordable 4:2:2, I'd bend over backwards, and eat Kraft Diner for the next 3 years if I have too. But we have no such choice. DV is what we have, and that's what the big corporations deem that we should be forced to have for the sub 10K range.

And when corporations do bring something down to our level, they give us shit like HDV @ 25Mbps. To make matters worse, they insult us with crippled CCDs with extremely poor low light sensitivity. Take Sony for example: HDV specs calls for 1440x1080 for 1080i, yet they give us 960x1080 pixel shifted interpolated crap. At the very least they could have upped the size of those CCDs.

[adaml]

correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't larger ccds require a larger lense, thus a different form factor?

[Zig_Zigman]

When you are old enough to afford all the toys you want, they won't matter anymore ;D

Think of it this way, if you are a company, why sell technology for 10k when you can sell it for 25k or more?

But it's trickling down quickly now...

[Neil Rowe]

because you will sell ALOT less at 25k. donald trump would probably agree. its not a matter of simply finding the top price that SOME people are willing to pay for something. its a matter of finding the top price that ALOT of people would pay for something. i mean.. you can have a great product, and price it too high trying to get the biggest profit margin, and sell alot of them and make some money, and you can sell the same product for alot less and sell a gillion of them and make more money.. only now you have your brand name on alot more peoples cameras..its not just about making a big profit margin.. its about making the most profit margin overall..and i would include brand dissemination as an important marketing stratagy as well. pani could have sold the DVX for 10,000 and people would have still bought it.. but they would not have been as successful as they were with it by any means whatsoever... id say that most of the people reading this here would agree that if it were 10,000 they wouldnt have one right now.

the problem here is that the companies have already made a camera for virtually every price range. so i assume the line of thinking is that they have something to offer for anyones price range.. if you want better, you pay more. well, thats good marketing logic and true to a certain extent, but as i pointed out earlier. when indy people get serious their not going to say .. gee i need a varicam for this project so lets go buy one.. they just rent it. does panasonic make money off the rental . . well, yes and no.. they sell the unit to the rental house once. but its rented out alot more than once, so the rental companies make the real money off the cameras. what companies need to do if possible and within the , is find the target pricerange that perhaps would make it affordable for the serious indy to just buy the camera..ALOT of indies would bu it and more pros would buy it too at a lower cost.. that way pani keeps all that potential money in their pockets, and makes alot of people happy buy making the profit from more sales at a lower profit margin but also at a reduced manufactring cost since higher quantities would be made. im hoping the HDX will sort of be a step in this direction the same as the DVX was.
because its not as if pani marketing doesnt know what they are doing, theyve run all the numbers in the world, and im sure they are doing what theyve predicted is in the companies best interest. only thing is that i think big companies who used to only cater to the big boy productions were certainly missing a very important market.. the independent filmmaker market. because its a very very large group of peole that certainly want the cameras and stuff.. just cant afford it. but since the DVX i think that the power and numbers of independents has sort of stood on a hill and rung a gong saying.. "hey.. what about us..? what do you mean you dont sell that many matteboxes so the prices have to stay high for you to make a profit because they are made in small quantity?.. if you just made a bunch of them and sold them at a reasonable price.. youd reach our market that youve discounted for too long and wed all buy one and proudly have your companies name all over our gear.. and youd make some good money " same thing could be applied to alot of gear and equipment ..i really honestly believe that companies have mostly overlooked the sheer numbers and buying power of the independent market until recently. ..pretty much until the time of the DVX. i would be willing to wager that panasonic has made apx the same or even more money off DVX sales than any other camera in their pro product line this last year. ..maybe im wrong, wouldnt be the first time.. or even the 100,000th time. but all i can say is that the camera has since been copied and hacked and supported beyond anything ive seen before,, so other companies want a piece of what panasonic has in the DVX, and panasonic wants to nurture its little wonder camera to keep it going strong. OK, great . i love panasonics pov on things and thier newfound support of the independents... and Jan is one heck of a gal. ..(tips the brim of his hat). I truley think that panasonic was the first really grasp the potential of the indy market, and i sincerely hope that the HDX can hold onto that grasp. it has big shoes to fill, and even bigger expectations to overcome. and while we cannot presume it will fulfill our every pixelated dream, im sure that we can count on it giving us some of the same buttery smooth flavor weve come to love from the DVX at a higher pixel count.

..i dont know what to think about having to spend near 10k to actually use the higher pixel count. it hasnt been announced that thats the case though.. under 10k just means under 10k.. it doesnt have to mean its 9,999.99 but ill admit that i fear the worst.

oh well. all said and done im just glad that we have all the opportunity we do to use the things available right now. tommorow is always tommorow... it will never come. today is where we should live.. and id say its a pretty nice day.

[Gary_McClurg]

Amen, to the above.

[comet48]

I think that is 100 mbs, which can easily be handled by firewire.

[reservoir]

...I thought the original Firewire did 400mbps or 50 MBps and the new Firewire800 spec is 800mbps or 100MBps. People always get confused when using mbps and MBps and it leads to misinterpretations. The new HDX should handle Firewire streaming with no problem. My 3 1/2 cents......~reservoir~

[Haakon]

This is where I think the under $10,000 price thing comes in. I think that the camera itseld may well retail for $4000 or thereabouts, but the P2 cards will cost users another $4000 odd so that they can record HD.
I think this will be the case as well... the "HD recording solution" will be set around 10K, which will include the camera and P2 card(s) - the necessary equipment you'd need to do just that. Except, I'm more prone to think that the camera will sell for around $6,000 if the P2 cards are around $4,000 a piece... not only does that equal the 10K number you're referencing (I'm not sure how you're making $4,000 + $4,000 = $10,000), :-P but it only makes more sense. I can't imagine they'd retail the HDX for cheaper than what the XL2 costs (though, shucks... wouldn't that be cool!) :-D