Mythbusters - HDCAM vs DVCPRO-HD

[redindian]

I read an pro-sony article at sonyhdinfo forums (http://www.sonyhdvinfo.com/showthread.php?t=1443)

(what else do u expect :)

I edited out the blind loyality bits, my-dad-can-beat-ur-dad bits, subjective BS and pure theory (like: theoretically it can't match Sony's a lot more modern codec, plus Sony's superior CCD's)

I don't know enuf to weed out BS, but many people here can.. (barry green..JL..etc)
So take a look and comment on his assersions...
[hr]




Pana DVCPROHD
Sony HDCAM
Winner



compressed at
6.7:1
4.4:1
Sony?



records
1280x1080 pixels
1440x1080 pixels
Sony?



data per frame
208KB
150-500KB
Depends on shot



Color Info
4:2:2
4.2:0
Pana?




Notes:
Truth about Sony's 4:2:0 vs. Matsushita's 4:2:2
Sony HDV I-frame varies in size from 150 to 500 kB
SONYs iframe records data at 500kb (on Static/Complex frame)
4:2:0 system uses 33% of its stream for color.
So 33% of 500 kB = 167 bB of color information

PANA
100:60=1.6667kb=208 kB
4:2:2 system uses 50% of its stream for color
So 50% of 208 kB is 104 kB of color information

167kbs > 104kbs

So while on paper 4:2:2 is supposed to resolve more color, but Sony's 4:2:0 resolves 40% more color.
[hr]


True/False?

90% of world's HDTV broadcast is 1080i -TRUE/FALSE
only 10% is 720p - TRUE/FALSE

The reason Sony is successful in their push for 1080i in HDTV is because they offer it as an interim MPEG2 format to be later upgraded to 1080/60p MPEG4, plus it converts nice to NTSC/PAL.
- TRUE/FALSE

1080i converted to 1080p creates the same or better image quality than 720p, considering everything else being equal. So Sony CF25 mode's 1080p progressive images will be superior to the Panasonic new camera's 720p images - TRUE/FALSE

[Shaw]

One thing I don't get is why HDCAM is brought up...

The FX1 and Z1 don't record in that format.... it's really a pointless comparison IMO.

EDIT: I think by HDCAM you mean HDV? He refers to XDCAM but that's a different topic.

[Gary_McClurg]

I'm just guessing once again. *But I think that was written by guy who wanted to prove his point by saying our engineer says this.

This might even be a guy who got banned because he would rant at anyone who didn't worship Sony.

I'm loyal to what is the best camera out there. *So far I think that company or camera is or will be a Panasonic. *I think that so far this new camera is just another stepping stone to the camera that all of us want. *A camera for independent filmmaking.

But its been said before and better by others. *Its not the camera its whose behind the camera. *Take Steve (disjecta), give that guy any camera and he'll shoot something great.

Forgot to add.

As John would say give me 24p. I guess that is the only thing that I'm really loyal too.


*

[Shaw]

I agree Gary. Most if not all of this information is based on a lack of understanding of how formats work. Here was my reply to the poster on the other site:



This is before taking into account any loss of resolution in MPEG2 due to compression. Numerous people have noticed this resolution drop. You can find mention of it in most any technical review of the camera. Whether this is that big of deal will, of course, depend in part on your audience.

The bottom line is that 1080i and 720p are both very good HDTV formats. One is not better than the other; they are just each better with particular types of subject matter. Converting 1080i to progressive isn't as effective as starting out in a progressive format.


Regarding Color Performance:


MPEG2 is MPEG2. It's no different from any MPEG2 that has been used in the past. If it was the compression wouldn't be MPEG2! Since MPEG2 has been around for a long while as well there's really no arguement about the codec being better.

We cannot talk about compression directly. The two are NOT directly comparable. We must talk about compression plotted against frame size!

Since we do not have many details about the Panasonic camera we can't make a judgement about which is better really. All we can do is play around with numbers. If we do however, I think we end up with different results:

Assuming we don't loose any color and/or luminance information from the interpolation needed to create the 15 entire frames between I-frames and thus go with your calculations and if we assume that there is no movement in frame to lower this (seems unlikely to me but I will go with it for arguements sake):

The frame size for 1080i is nearly 2.25 times larger than a 720p frame. Thus your color data is spread out 2.25 times more than a SVCPROHD frame!

So to recalculate for a fair comparison of color per equal area of frame:

50% of 208 = 104kB - DVCproHD
33% of 500 = 167kB - HDV BUT-

If we then take into account frame size:

104kB - DVCproHD
vs
167/2.25 = 74.2! - HDV

We are talking about much, much less data per area which is what REALLY matters. Thus the image quality will clrealy be less than that of DVCproHD. There is a reason the codecs are labeled 4:2:2 and 4:1:1. Those are not arbitrary.


[quote]What does it mean? Sony color will be better than Varicam color. The only advantage Varicam has are superior lenses. because these lenses are made mainly for Sony's a lot more resolving cameras, while Varicam at 960x720 recorded pixels is a sub-HD camera.

In which case the sony is as well since it upresses from 1440 to 1920! Both uprez by 33%. So taking that stance both aren't "true HD."


So what does this tell us? DVCproHD is a far better codec. This is of course obvious from the 4:2:2 designation. Taking the better codec with all the other major benefits I think we can clearly see that a DVCproHD camera would significantly better than HDV. These calculations are also giving a strong bias to the HDV format by not counting off for it's movement image faults.

There's no arguement. 4:2:2 is better than 4:1:1.

It is also my opinion that, given the other limitations of the HDV format, a DVCproHD camera from Panasonic will be significantly better. Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions.

[redindian]

great reply shaw - helped clear a lot of things!

[PFP_VIDEO]

That guy who wrote that article must smoke alot of crack. Sure you could say VHS was a takeoff of Beta, but who won the format war? Before DVD'S took over a kazillion vhs tapes were sold. Maybe he lost a finger in a tape transport of Panasonic product to have that much animosity towards them.

[Gary_McClurg]

;D LOL ;D

[Barry_Green]

Guys, don't even go there with that poster. *If I'm not mistaken, I'd guess that the guy writing that is the same one-note poster known as Joseph George, UltimateDefinition, the_director, etc. *If it is the same guy, you won't get too far with logic... he shows up all the time, under new identities, preaching the same message. He's been banned from DVXUser, DVInfo, and probably others and he recently had a running rampage on the Sony Vegas forum (under the user ID of HDV). *He worships all things Sony and has made it his mission to discredit the VariCam.

So don't even try logic, it won't get you anywhere. *His rantings about the VariCam are relentless, and really puzzling. *And by extension he includes the HDX and anything that uses DVCPRO-HD. *Don't worry arguing facts, eventually he will make enough people angry enough that they will ban him from that forum as well.

As far as HDV vs. DVCPRO-HD, arguing numbers is just silly... we can engage in speculation, but what's the point? *Let's just wait a few weeks and get our hands on the cameras and put 'em to the test (and this time, I want to get the world's foremost HDV expert working on the test with us, so there won't be any claims of slanting the review!) :)

[insanityfw]

Ahhh Barry, always the voice of calm and reason. I'm so jealous. When I grow up I want to be Barry. ;D

[insanityfw]

If I ever grow up. ;D

[Jan_Crittenden]

Redindian posted this from another page and boy I am tempted to go slap that original poster silly:


>I edited out the blind loyality bits, my-dad-can-beat-ur-dad bits, subjective BS and pure theory (like: theoretically it can't match Sony's a lot more modern codec, plus Sony's superior CCD's)

And then there's fact that he is totally incorrect.


>I don't know enuf to weed out BS, but many people here can.. (barry green..JL..etc)
So take a look and comment on his assersions...

The problem is that he is talking about HDCAM and HDV as if they were one and the same, they most definitly are not. HDCAM is 1080P/24, at its best iteration or 1080i/60, but the compression in either brings the data to 140Mbs. HDV brings the data to 25Mbs.


[hr]




Pana DVCPROHD
Sony HDCAM
Winner



compressed at
6.7:1
4.4:1
Sony?




records
1280x1080 pixels
1440x1080 pixels
Sony?



data per frame
208KB
150-500KB
Depends on shot



Color Info
4:2:2
4.2:0
Pana?




Notes:

The deal is at which point do you start counting the compression, the prefilter? HD starts at 994Mbs at 8 bits, so you all can do the math, DVCPRO is at 100Mbs, and HDCAM is at 140Mbs, and HDV is at 25Mbs. It is a silly game and we all play it, the compression ratio numbers start at the prefilter. That is why they are so low.

While the pixel count is accurate, frankly many that shoot with the HDCAM will put a diffusion in front of the lens to lessen the sharpness. I would not even begin to ague that 1080P/24 isn't a nicer format than 720P. The probelm with our poster is that he is confusing HDCAM with HDV. HDV has no where near the data as HDCAM.

Sorry VTRs are constant bit rate machines, each frame has the same number of bits, even if it has to bit stuff. Pictures tell the story. So while HDCAM is variable in the frame, every format has its tricks to deal with the higher data rates on intensely detailed pictures, DVCPROHD does as well.



>Truth about Sony's 4:2:0 vs. Matsushita's 4:2:2
Sony HDV I-frame varies in size from 150 to 500 kB

There is no such thing as an HDV I frame series. HDV is 1 I-frame for every 14 frames, those 15 frames are called the GOP(Group of Pictures.) It is this GOP that causes the .5 second dropout/still frame. If it can't find all of the data in the GOP, the Codec crashes till the next I frame.


>SONYs iframe records data at 500kb (on Static/Complex frame)
4:2:0 system uses 33% of its stream for color.
So 33% of 500 kB = 167 bB of color information

This is stupid and wrong, he is making up his own format here.
DVCPROHD 4:2:2
HDCAM 3:1:1
HDV 4:2:0



>So while on paper 4:2:2 is supposed to resolve more color, but Sony's 4:2:0 resolves 40% more color.
[hr]

I would have to say that Barry is right, the guy is a bit of the out there fringe, and it is obvious that to argue with him may be futile. There is no way on earth that 4:2:0 color space is better. Go read Adam Wilts paper on 4:2:0 in DV Magazine. It probably is still up.



True/False?
[list]
> 90% of world's HDTV broadcast is 1080i -TRUE/FALSE
> only 10% is 720p - TRUE/FALSE

Actually it is probably more like 75/25 ABC/Fox and ESPN are all 720P


The reason Sony is successful in their push for 1080i in HDTV is because they offer it as an interim MPEG2 format to be later upgraded to 1080/60p MPEG4, plus it converts nice to NTSC/PAL.
- TRUE/FALSE

How do you upgrade a machine that is in the field? This doesn't even make sense.

So True or False, 80% of the content distribution is on DVD, do we produce in DVD? No, you produce in the best format you can afford, keeping your production values high and distribute to what ever.


1080i converted to 1080p creates the same or better image quality than 720p, considering everything else being equal.


False! 720P has 720 lines to upconvert to 1080 lines. 1080I has 540 lines to upconvert to 1080 lines. Progressive formats always upconvert better.



>So Sony CF25 mode's 1080p progressive images will be superior to the Panasonic new camera's 720p images - TRUE/FALSE

False!!!!! CF25 is not a progressive image!

Hope this helps,

Jan

[mr._guiyotinne]

let him speak! Put him a column! The more he speaks, the more intelligent people and experts will answer and correct him, making more possible customers turn the head to Pana. And because the more confuse he looks, the more simple answers he get, so flying readers will understand the differences better!

It was a funny reading, i enjoyed every line. And answers were even better with all the conscience pouring from their words (and sure, little rage). ;D

[Flintstone]

Go Jan, Go! :)

[Barry_Green]

Shaw, I went and read that thread, just for grins. *It is UNDOUBTEDLY the same guy ("HDV" on the Vegas forum, UltraDefinition and PeteWright on the CML forum, the_director on this forum, Joseph George on the dvinfo.net forum). *He's getting more vitriolic in his hatred of all things Matsushita. *This will be an argument you cannot "win", especially on a forum entitled "sonyhdvinfo".

However, I am very impressed with the way you've answered -- you're doing a superb job! *Good luck with making any progress.

Very, very, very soon we should have the chance to put two comparably-priced cameras together side-by-side, and answer the question once and for all by LOOKING AT THE IMAGES, not "geeking out" on who can interpret numbers to make their side look more impressive.

Actually, I've devised a test that I think will answer this question once and for all already (well, at least for those who are willing to believe facts... for those who are on a pseudo-religious zealotry crusade, there will never be any resolution). *Gotta find time to do it, but I think I can settle the codec-superiority question absolutely. *Maybe next week sometime.

(edit: please, everyone note that "PeteWright" is NOT "Peter Wright" from Australia. In an unfortunate case of identity confusion, HDV/Joseph George adopted an identity that is dangerously close to Peter Wright's. Peter Wright's been around a long time and is the "real deal", "PeteWright" is an identity that HDV/JG used on the CML list. It's unfortunate that Peter Wright's good name and reputation were somewhat co-opted from him.)

[Shaw]

Thanks Barry :). I try to keep a level head most of the time. It doesn't always happen unfortunately, but I try.

Luckily I haven't yet encountered this guy before (at least not that I am aware of). I don't really have much hope of convincing him but hopefully my posts will help dissuade people from believing outright false information.

I'd be most interested in seeing such a test! Definitely give it a shot if you have some spare time (as if anyone of us have lots of time to spare!).

[Terry_Lasater]

Colonel Green, did you order the code red on HDV?!

[Barry_Green]

Not sure what you mean. You mean on the Vegas forum? Somehow he got *really* mad at me, and littered that forum with dozens and dozens and dozens of posts all calling me by name, asking "when will Barry Green ever stop", all sorts of stuff. It was really irritating, and kind of creepy. I guess the Sony Vegas mods were on vacation that week, because they came in the following Monday and cleaned up all the nonsense, and since then he hasn't been back.

[David Jimerson]

Colonel Green? Wasn't he a bloody tyrant of the early 21st Century?

[Terry_Lasater]

Just my silly sense of humor. I was trying to reference A Few Good Men.

Actually, I don't know anything about this person other than what I've read in this thread.

[TimurCivan]

<<He's getting more vitriolic in his hatred of all things Matsushita.>> barry green


i am sort of wondering why someone would hate matsushita? like did they kill his father in an epic battle?

[Shaw]

Now see, I might pay money to see something like that :D

[Neil Rowe]

..guys not right. what else is there to say.. next hes going to tell me that terds on a stick taste better than grilled salmon if i just look at the data he decided to make up.
...i seriously have no fuse left to burn for people like that.

[PFP_VIDEO]

Barry, any chance you could sue for slander? Disagreement is one thing, but the personal attacks i've read on that other website crosses the line. When a website or a person spreads lies and disinformation, what course do the wronged and slandered have ? Does a company like Panasonic have recourse when the wrong information about there products are being written?

[Gary_McClurg]

You have to prove damages.

[SergejIvanovits]

Actually it is probably more like 75/25 ABC/Fox and ESPN are all 720P


19 og the 23 US HD-broadcasters er 1080i.

[Barry_Green]

Slander/damages: I agree with Gary, if what was being said was actually damaging you or your ability to earn a living, and it was untrue, then sure there'd be a case. But I don't think anything HDV said would come close to that. He called me the "big bad guru" and kept asking "why oh why does BG continue to say these things?" (er... because they're true...) but I didn't see anything that would come close to slander. Truthfully I got more annoyed when some people said that our test results were "bogus" or hinted that they were "doctored"... that really bothered me.

But, as far as the tempest in a teapot being raised over the formats -- all that will be blown away, myth and number-crunching will disappear once we can put the cameras side-by-side. And to avoid claims of "bias", I'd love to test the new camera against an acknowledged expert on the Sony -- perhaps Spot, perhaps Jody, etc...

[MovieSwede]

Did Churchills reputation get hurt buy all the things the germans accused him for? ;)

When people dont have logical arguments, they can only attack with stuff like that.