Would you still buy a DVX100A today?

[GlowMatt]

I was about to pull the trigger and buy one for a shoot I have Saturday, but now I'm hesitant. I COULD use my old camcorder for the shoot, although it would be nice to shoot it in 24p. Gotta decide today. Am I gonna regret the purchase in a few months? What do you think the chances are this camera will be within $1000 in price to the DVX100A? If it is, and it had 16X9 and HD built in, I think I'd kick myself. Also, will the DVX100A drop in price when this camera is released? Will I be able to get a good return on ebay if I decide to upgrade? I know nobody has the answers to these questions, but I'd appreciate a guess or two from people with more experience in this industry than me.

[Zim]

To many questions still on the new P2HD. I really only want 16:9 on mine. The other stuff will probably drive the cost out of my small budget. But I guess we will find out.

[scharky]

I have been using the DVX100A for over a year. i can honestly say that I would definitly buy one even today. The new camera isn't even in the same league as the DVX, so it really isn't replacing anything. Unless you have really big plans that everything you shoot needs to be in HD, your really not loosing anything with the DVX. Granted it has it's faults, but boy does it have it's upsides as well. When the new camera comes out I will probably be saving my pennies for that as well, but it will not replace my DVX, it will sit side by side.

[David Jimerson]

I also will not replace my DVX, though I intend to buy a 24p HD camera at some point (let’s keep in mind that it might not even be THIS one coming up! I mean, what if it sucks?). As scharky says, different worlds, different uses, different tools. I’m really excited about 24p HD at the prosumer level, but I’m no less jazzed on the DVX because of it. It doesn’t suddenly NOT do what I bought it for just because this new one is on the way.

[natob2]

I sold my DVX100 three week ago in part because I suspected this would happen. I wanted to get the highest resale value possible. Do I miss my DVX? Yes. But out with the old in with the new...

[Isaac_Brody]

Chances are very very low that this new cam would be within 1000 dollars of the DVX. Also, a cam alone won't allow you to shoot a short. If you can't afford accessories then you're sol. No one knows what those P2 cards are gonna sell for, but they aint gonna be cheap.

If you're just shooting a short film this new camera could be overkill. I would probably go for the DVX in your situation, shoot the short and pick up experience. The DVX has a pretty steep learning curve, I don't see how a new DVCPRO camera will be any different. If anything it will take even more time to learn the ins and outs of this camera as people put it through its steps and Barry get's a new guide out. ::)

The DVX is a pretty nice camera, if anything you might be able to pick up a used DVX cheap once this camera comes out.

[Glenn_Gipson]

I would buy the DVX100A today. This new P2 cam is going to cost far more then the DVX100A, is untested, and probably wont be released until the fall. You also have to take into consideration any additional NLE upgrades that will indirectly jack up the price.

[Neil Rowe]

..certainly id still buy it today. * *the new cam will likely be 2x the cost and possibly 3x the cost before it gives us the HD format were looking for. *its not like everyone is going to switch at the drop of a hat. theres more money involved, and alot less people will be able to afford to actually use it for HD.. and if you cant use it for HD.. will the SD qualities really be so much better than the DVX? probably not enough to double the cost IMHO ..its hard to improove on the DVX at its pricepoint for a 24p SD cam. *

sides you have to worry about NLE compatability and upgrading and all that jazz with HD.. youd think that when the cam comes out its the end of the torrent .. but i think it will only be the eye of the storm. so we have a new HD camera.. now, how do we actually use its new abilities? im sure there will be paths made clear and evident when the time comes, but you might have to shell out even more dough to pave that new path you want to take.

[insanityfw]

No question I'd buy again in a heartbeat. If money is no issue then you can buy the DVX now and still be able to buy the P2 cam when it comes out...if it's all you want. If this camera is close to 10k a few grand more for the DVX probably would be doable.

Also, you will still be able to sell the DVX later in the year and get a good chunk of your money back.

The DVX is here to stay for quite some time. It still does what it does really well.

[GlowMatt]

Thanks for all the input. Of course I'd be happy with the DVX for all of my needs in the near future. I might never use hi-def for a few years. I'm still curious if you all expect a significant price drop to the DVX later this year.

[Neil Rowe]

well of course everything is speculatory at this point, but i woulndt expect any real big price drop on the DVX *untill they (Panasonic) realease a new model at its pricepoint. the DVX is not being discontinued, and the new HDX or whatever isnt really in direct competition with it. its base price is rumored to be nearly 2x that of the DVX, and to do HD you might have to shell out even more to revamp your whole workflow.. we have to wait and see i guess. * but what i would expect is to be able to get a good deal on a used DVX when the new cam comes out.. so you could grab one up and get a great deal. ..id consider that as good as any price drop as long as you buy a well taken care of camera.

of course you could buy a used one right now, theres plenty for sale out there.. alot right here in the marketplace section...

[insanityfw]

A "significant price drop" would suggest that the new camera is supposed to be a direct replacement for the DVX, which doesn't seem to be the case at all.

Now I'm not some rich person writing, but the price-point for the DVX seems pretty good to me. My money is hard earned, but I haven't for a second thought to myself, "man I really got ripped off" or "man I think I should have waited". I understand that gear is going to almost always be a stretch for most people, but I say if you can stretch do it and then get out there and shoot your heart out.

It's been said many times, but it's not as much the camera as it is the talent behind the camera anyway ;D

[Jan_Crittenden]

Thanks for all the input. *Of course I'd be happy with the DVX for all of my needs in the near future. *I might never use hi-def for a few years. *I'm still curious if you all expect a significant price drop to the DVX later this year. *


The only price drop you will see on the DVX is the current $300 rebate. There is no reason to reduce the price of the camera, it is worth every penny. You should buy while the rebate is in effect.

Hope that helps,

Jan

[Flintstone]

I already have a camcorder, so I'm in no hurry. But I was tempted to buy another DVX100A in January. Anyway, right now, this new vaporware wonder is yet to be fact. So let's wait until NAB2005 to confirm. Besides, it is very likely that shipment won't happen until September.

But if you need a cam now, then don't hesitate, the DVX is the best of it's class. OK, so it doesn't have native 16x9... but it's image quality is far better then the Sony PD170; trust me on this, sadly, I speak from experience.

"And let the wild speculation continue... because it's fun!"

[MtSurf]

This is what made me purshase my second DVX this week.
1. I tried out the Sony HDV camera a few weeks back and although the footage looked great the connect hd software was terrible: audio sync problems and big drop outs
2. My sony vegas 5 system could not get more the 18fps on playback not good enough for me. My system has an AMD 3200/ 1 gb ddr ram
3. Once you edit your content how do you distribute it? No HD DVD yet. Who has an DVCPRO HD Deck?
4. I have one DVX already and I want two cameras that match. (my trv900 is not cutting it as camera 2 for weddings)
5. Who likes to be the ginnie pig on a first generation product?

I do think that eventually we all will be moving to hd but I am not quite sold yet. Maybe in a year or two. Just my opinion.

[redindian]

Why would u still buy a DVX100A today??? When you said you can use your old camera to shoot your short for the time being...!


Dont fall for it...!!
everyone's advice is contrary to common reasoning... but its a internet forum... read everything but choose yourself ... 3K is big money! Most of the replies are from people who already own one..! Dont *create* a need unless you really need it. Maybe you dont shoot HD right away... but if its within arms reach - why not ?

Sit back and think. A new camera has been announced to succeed/replace a old camera! why would you buy it unless you know the next camera is 10k or it plainly sucks...
but if the camera turns out to be a gem at $5,999/$4,999 ...and has future-proof (2years:) tech - then you will be kicking urself daily...!

yes, DVX100A is a fine camera - but you owe it to userself to fully explore whats in store in the next version!
yes, a new version wont make current camera shoot bad - but when u can afford to wait a bit longer - why cant u wait ?

good luck!..

[David Jimerson]

Dont fall for it...!!
everyone's advice is contrary to common reasoning... but its a internet forum...

???

What, do you think we're all Panasonic reps or something? *We're not trying trick anyone. *"Fall for it"?

"Common reasoning" would say, "how badly do you want 24p for the project you have coming up?" *Is it worth buying the DVX now and selling it later for a slight loss (maybe a couple hundred, certainly less than a rental price for a few days), IF you eventually even want to sell it? *How about the experience that comes with having the cam with you 24/7 to shoot and learn with, and thereby be more "ready" when the new cam comes along? *Remember, we could be talking 6 months to a year here. *How valuable would that much experience be, learning to shoot in 24p (which is a BIG benefit, and not like shooting with a 60i cam) and using the many professional features the DVX will no doubt share with the new cam?

ALL things to think about.

[Zim]

Why do you think it will be 6 months to a year? Maybe they are ready to start shipping. Why would they want to loss a years sales to the Z1 or other cameras?

I agree if you can wait a month or so why not. I'm sure the DVX100a is a nice camera for those who own it and they will get more good use out of them. But if you don't own one why not wait? The DVX is getting out dated. In a couple years the Z1 will be out dated. So will the P2HD.

If they hadn't annouced something new that might be one thing, but they are trying to slow down sales on the Z1. Panasonic is saying wait wait.. and I'm waiting.

[David Jimerson]

Just using history as a guide. *The person asking the question needs to make a decision today (so he said), and at the VERY LEAST, NAB (where it will be announced -- remember, thus far, it's only been LEAKED, not announced) is still two months away. *Releasing the cam four months after announcing it would be pretty quick, so there's your six months.

[Flintstone]

And to add to David's post, very few announcements of new product release at NAB are available at announcement time. Product announcements are just that, announcements. *If it hasn't hit the shelves yet, then they are in the process of completing that product. It is simply a way to say "Hey! We're working on this new revolutionary gizmo, check it out! Wait, or you’ll regret not buying it later!".*Partially, it is a way for the product manufacturers to buy some time, and create anticipation..

[alpi69]

even if it comes out in summer it will be another half year before they bring the "A" version. yes, the DVXplain was good but the DVX"A" was the real deal. it will be similar this time. same with SONY and others. they shoot a product to be on the market, then they polish it. and with P2-prices being the dealbreaker for most of us any day you can wait is money saved, but the question is: can you AFFORD to WAIT?

[redindian]

"Common reasoning" would say, "how badly do you want 24p for the project you have coming up?"


He told he has a camera which he can use for the present project.

A few hundred dollar loss? In an whole year of use, do u expect a used DVX100A to cost $2500?

I just wanted him to think about his needs.. thats all... With the PMA coming, I wudnt advice anyone to go buy a Digital SLR till u see what Nikon/Canon has up their sleeve...
the same wud hold true for NAB.... wait till that time, and let the smoke settle.... ... if Pana tells us HDX is not available till Winter 2005 or if its $9,999, then base ur decision on that

[Zim]

I just looked on Ebay and there are about 100 DVX100a for sale. Probably will be able to get a good deal on one if the P2HD turns out to be something good.

[David Jimerson]

He told he has a camera which he can use for the present project.

A few hundred dollar loss? In an whole year of use, do u expect a used DVX100A to cost $2500?

I just wanted him to think about his needs.. thats all... With the PMA coming, I wudnt advice anyone to go buy a Digital SLR till u see what Nikon/Canon has up their sleeve...
the same wud hold true for NAB.... wait till that time, and let the smoke settle.... ... if Pana tells us HDX is not available till Winter 2005 or if its $9,999, then base ur decision on that




I think an original DVX (no A) still sells for $1900 . . . after two years. That’s $67/mo depreciation based on a $3500 original price. The 100A is worth a little more, so six months from now? $2500? Sure. New ones will still be $3300 or so. It would not be unreasonable to pull in $2900 for one. Which would be about in line with a $67/mo depreciation. Now, compare that to $150/day rental.

I *know* what you said. If he’s happy with his camera, then he can wait. But what I take umbrance with is a) the idea that he’d be “falling for” something if he bought a DVX now, and b) that to buy one – that the things we were posting – is “against all common reason.” There are MANY reasonable arguments for buying a DVX now, many benefits that he won’t have with his current cam, so it’s up to HIM to determine if the added benefit of the DVX’s features and what he can take advantage of are worth it. And, he had to make his decision TODAY, so he said, not two months from now when the price and specs of the new cam will be made public.

So, let’s be careful how we phrase things.

[Glenn_Gipson]

Why would u still buy a DVX100A today??? When you said you can use your old camera to shoot your short for the time being...!


Dont fall for it...!!
everyone's advice is contrary to common reasoning... but its a internet forum... read everything but choose yourself ... 3K is big money! Most of the replies are from people who already own one..! Dont *create* a need unless you really need it. Maybe you dont shoot HD right away... but if its within arms reach - why not ?

Sit back and think. A new camera has been announced to succeed/replace a old camera! why would you buy it unless you know the next camera is 10k or it plainly sucks...
but if the camera turns out to be a gem at $5,999/$4,999 ...and has future-proof (2years:) tech - then you will be kicking urself daily...!

yes, DVX100A is a fine camera - but you owe it to userself to fully explore whats in store in the next version!
yes, a new version wont make current camera shoot bad - but when u can afford to wait a bit longer - why cant u wait ?

good luck!..


Yeah, and then when he is ready to buy the P2 cam something greater will be on the horizon, and you're logic could easy apply then too. And the poor guy would be chasing his tail into infinity. The right time to buy is when you need it, technology will always be andvancing.

[Amahp]

Would you still buy a DVX100A today?


I'm more focused on writing the ultimate script then worrying about what camera to use. By the time I get this script done, HDX will be definetly be the choice or any other neat camera that comes out then. :)

[Anhar_Miah]

you are right that technology is always changing but most of the time its small incremental change, but sometime just sometime a big change in technology happens thats different altogether because it means we are entering a new phase.

Think about it from the first ever miniDV to DVX100 there have been lots of cams inbetween BUT they have all been small changes (relatively speaking) if this HDX is indeed true then this will represent a BIG change. since big changes happens rarely nows a good time to buy into this "revolution".....

If this cam is vapour ware then the Z1 will end up stealing the limelight.

what the hell, one thing is for sure the gates of prosumer HD have been unleashed and theres no turning back.

[Barry_Green]

(referencing why someone shouldn't buy the tool they need now) I don't understand this line of reasoning at all... I mean, is the camera a toy to play with? *Or a business tool? It could be either, certainly, but if it's a tool for use in business, the right time to buy it is when you need it.

Let's assume the new camera comes out in two months. *Not only "announced" at NAB, but actually shipping. *Would it have been foolish to buy a DVX100A now?

IT ALL DEPENDS ON WHAT YOU DO WITH THE CAMERA BETWEEN NOW AND THEN.

If you plan to play around with it like it's a toy, then yes, if you intend to get the new camera, you will probably wish you'd waited.

If you intend to put it to work (shooting weddings, conventions, whatever) and you have skills, or use it to develop skills, you could easily make back the cost of the camera completely, before NAB. *Wedding shooters get somewhere between $800 and $3000 for shooting a wedding in this town. *Even if you got $800 each... do one each weekend for a month -- the DVX is now paid for. *Do one each weekend for the next month, sell your DVX for $2,500 -- and voila -- your new HDX is already paid for. *That won't happen if you "wait".

Or if you live in a big-enough town, shoot convention/event coverage. *I've been getting $850/day for convention work, and I know that shooters shooting high-school kids sports demos (to impress college coaches) have been charging $85/hour. *It doesn't take long before that big-money $3500 purchase is now paid-in-full. *

If you have a need for it now, or can put it to work now, get it now and put it to work. *If you aren't going to put it to work, why get it at all, much less getting it now?

[GregJacobson]

Barry, just curious about how you shoot conventions and other events. Do you use a steady cam?

[Barry_Green]

Depends. I've done several where I use the Tiffen Steadi-Stick (to keep the weight off my back), Frezzi mini-fill with softbox, and if there's audio, a wireless handheld mic for the interviewer.

Most of these type of jobs are either a) get general b-roll of the convention, so we can edit it together later for making a promotional video to make people want to exhibit at our convention, or b) shoot the booths themselves, folwing around an interviewer for news-style coverage.

On bigger-budget shoots we'll bring along a cart with a tripod and a softbox and an audio guy.

[Jan_Crittenden]

I just looked on Ebay and there are about 100 DVX100a for sale. Probably will be able to get a good deal on one if the P2HD turns out to be something *good.

And most of thse are gray market. None will have the Magic Bullet, DVX Book or qualify for the rebate. And worst of all, will not have a Panasonic US warranty.

Best,

Jan

[GlowMatt]

Thanks all for your advice. I'm buying the DVX. The 24p film gamma look I'll get on the shoot this weekend will likely earn me some business in the future. Maybe my NEXT camera will be HD. By then the medium will be a little more developed.

[geffy]

the canon xl1s reduced by over a third during its life until the xl2 came out its better to end the speculation and moniter it, ive started a new post http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=HDV;action=display;num=1108567176;st art=0#0

[WaveRiderXIX]

I bought my DVX100a in Nov. I have no regrets even though the HDFX1 came out... HD... oooooh. wowww...

Well... It's Feb now... rumors of the new Panny is coming out... and I would STILL buy another DVX100a. Why?

Overall accessory costs. Won't need to buy a P2. Accessories for the DVX are more abundant. You'll need to buy more/bigger harddrives if you go HD... And the world is still holding strong to DVD. HD-DVD... Blue Ray... I'm not going anywhere with my DVX100a until one of those 2 will be the official new format to replace DVD we have today. I like being able to play MiniDV tapes in any MiniDV playback source available. Can even play it back on a cheapo $200 MiniDV camera.

[GlowMatt]

Yeah, that's the conclusion I came to. I don't plan on doing HD work for a while either. My main concern is if I'm going to order the thing now and then watch its price plummet in the next 2 months or so. BUT...too late! Ordered and on its way from EVS and I'm very happy with my decision. Even if it plummets, it's still a great deal w/ the rebate, Barry's book, Magic Bullet. I'll just close my eyes to the new price and pretend a new Panny cam was never announced. The DVX is still the latest and greatest. ;)

[alpi69]

i already mentioned "we could soon make this in HDV or something like it" and my customers eyes started sparkling. then i told him it would cost double at least and he was fine with what we offered now......as long as the tools are brandnew and kinda in development they will cost big bucks. SD and the DVX (or other SD cams of course) are a solid toolset for TV, DVD, web etc right now.

the future will be online. games, films, shows all will be streaming, but at the moment i do not see anyone streaming an actionflick. here in europe we are faraway from a decent HD delivery format. i asked an editor who buys footage off me from our national TV-network and he didn´t even know HD will be 16:9. he said: is that so. well then we won´t air it in the news- or sports-section. only dedicated programmeslots will be HD/16:9.

now with that conservative approach from the networks we will see stuff like the olympics and some natureshows as HD. but in general i do not see an HD market in the next 3 years. hold onto your DVXs!!!!

[The_Video_Guy]

i already mentioned "we could soon make this in HDV or something like it" and my customers eyes started sparkling. then i told him it would cost double at least and he was fine with what we offered now....

Well it would seem that it depends on how you market it cause in theory it doesn't need to "cost double"... it's on MiniDV so really it's the same cost. (ya I know there are other expensese and no HD disc medium at the moment) If you want to give the person the impression that it "costs more" cause it's "better/future proof" then that choice is up to you... and wether you choose to do that is neither right nor wrong.

I'll play the HD push role once again here as I prepare to get my post quoted to death after it's done...

There is a lot of talk about 24P and how "24P or death" and whatnot... which I guess I get if you are an indie and on a very tight budget doing your own film. *Mike at HD for indies has been doing a lot of testing with a lot of cams. *What I like about his style is that he reports the facts relatively biased free trying to figure out the best dollar for dollar solution based on need/requirement. *While other may say 24P is the only way to go... I believe that to be a somewhat close minded statement... here's why...

If any camera you buy is a toy then fine this debates won't interest you and you'll be happy either way and if you have a lot of money then just go buy the F900 and laugh at everyone here. *;D *For the rest of us, considering HD vs SD at the moment is a big decision. *I recently purchased the FX1 over the DVX and it was a big decision. (canon or JVC wasn't even an option for me) What seems to be talked about less that I feel is equally important is how to you make 24P look like 60i? *You don't. *Yes, I agree... NTSC is lame but it's the way it is in North America and people have become accustomed to the "video look". *I did a test where I hooked up my FX1 to get peoples reaction in HDV 60i, CF24 and CF30 vs some DVX footage shot in 60i and in 24p... I did both on my 4x3 tv and then again both on my 16x9 HDTV. *People were mostly taken back with the clarity of the HD picture from the FX1. *There is no science to this test... it was mostly people who did work in advertising and with electronic media...

When I switch the DVX from 60i to 24P the comment was "it went from looking like video to flim".

When I switch the FX from 60i to CF24 the comment was "it went from looking like video to film".... *60i to CF30 same comment.

FX1 and DVX 30 modes to 24 modes... "24 looks like more stobe like and kind of jagged..." most noticed more on pans obviously and less if it was static with just people walking in font or whatever...

Also turn on the Gamma setting on both and the reaction was image was more "film like and more pleasing to the eye with gammas on with both cams"...

The big clintcher was the HDV on the HD set. *While the panasoinc looks good it doesn't comapare. *However the sony did seem to compare and people didn't really notice much difference when both cams were on a 4x3 set.

My humble, non confrontation, yet very different opinion from most here.. ;D is that the word "indie filmaker" *has a lot of definitions. *I feel I don't really fall into this category as I do produce commercial and elements for the internet, NTSC TV and general promotion video for corporate clients, rather than trying to make movie to been seen or be discovered. *I'm not knockin' the indie scene whatsoever but my perspective is I need to make money as well as a quality product that I feel comfortable tagging my name to. *With HD now available at a fraction of the cost that is was a year ago, for me the DVX didn't make sense. *I can emulate the FX1 to give a "flim like" product. *Yes, if you stick a magnifiying glass to it it's not 24P, but if you think that that feature is the only make or break feature that makes something look like film... then I think that is where everyone does injustice to the DVX. *It has alot more to offer than just 24P... it has 24PA but that seems to be discussed less for some reason though you think it would be the opposite for indies hoping to take the final for a filmout.
For me shooting HD 60i leaves the door open to cater to NTSC video look as well as "hacking it up" to emulate a film look... and lets not deny up rez possibility... If i had the chance to have all the projects I shot on VHS, even 4x3 DV converted to 16x9 HD with the click of a button... what is so wrong with that?

I think the 24P vs HD debate is somewhat over rated. *The DVX vs FX1 offers much more than that like Phantom power, XLR in, a manual zoom rocker!!! (this was almost the clincher for me vs FX1 seuto servo)... among it's cinegamma and other settings... the manual control of the DVX in general was almost enough for me to say no to the Sony... however I understand and have lived with my decision and I am glad a bought my FX1.

Is the DVX outdated? *Yes, as far as current technology. *Does that mean it's not capable... no. *However with a potential HD from panasonic not too far away, unless you buy a camera (sub 5000 g's) more than twice a year... waiting may not be a bad idea. *Renting a DVX might be a better option. *I would not buy a DVX today... but again... only one mans opnion with his own needs in mind.

[braw]

I think the 24P vs HD debate is somewhat over rated. *The DVX vs FX1 offers much more than that like Phantom power, XLR in, a manual zoom rocker!!!

24p would be compared to Cineframe 24 or 60i, in which case true 24p is more pleasing and accurate to emulating film cadence.

SD would be compared to HD, in which HD is definitely higher resolution, which equals closer to what indie filmmakers want. 1080i can be compared to 720p, which most indies would prefer 24p HD over interlaced. I'm sure we would all prefer 1080 24p that could actually be edited on a home computer. Soon my pretties.

Finally DVCPRO-HD could be compared to HDV, and from everything I've read about the two, there seems to be no contest. ;)

[alpi69]

video_guy,
i basically agree. i am producing similar content to yours (PAL 4:3 TV programmes, commercials, infochannelcontent and only sometimes a short). in my calculation output from the new Pana will cost double: the cam and its accessories, whatever way you turn it your editing system will not handle it as easy as miniDV. i can now do 6 layers of colorcorrected footage in a composite in realtime (using Liqid Edition 6) and the first competitor for this is Canopus with a $ 5000 solution and then comes Liquid HD which costs 12000 turnkey. then add the costs for extra P2 cards, for a RAID-5 to be safe with these P2 cards and then you need more harddisks or any other backupsystem (tapes again???) to keep your footage if you have no tapes anymore. now add a HD monitor and a deck that records in a format that is used by the netwroks you deliver to and you will be near 20000 until you have a professional setup in HD. *
in professional i mean:
- my editing system is absolutely stable whatever i do
- i can work like i do now: make multi-layer composites in realtime with no lag etc
-i can come back 6 months after and in a short time re-edit the film according to the clients wishes.
those are the features i need for my work. HD will need tons of bandwidth more even when they keep it at 40Mbs.
here is a quote from dave_s on creative cow i found just now:
"On my system (AMD 64 3500+ with ATI 9600 256Mb video) I can't use any preview any RT transitions between HDV 1080i clips; the frame rate drops to 1 fps. I think it's my video card that's the limiting factor here. I can use RT filters and have successfully done a pan-and-scan downcovert with RT preview. A higher-end video card might let me use 2 HDV streams with RT transitions but that's still questionable."
so HDV needs a lot of power if a 3500AMD plays at 1fps only. the resolution simply offers so many pixels regardless of the format they squeeze it into. so to have a workable solution you need a dual-xean 3,6GHz box with a $ 500 grafxcard etc.....it adds up like my wife´s shopping list...
your 60i vs 24p point is correct IMO. people do not care what it is. they see it and judge it. if it is 60i and a great story they will prefer it to 24p and a lame story. content is priority #1. but of course if you can make a film in 24p with a great story even better, but no one will talk about the framerate (other than us here *;D )

[Flintstone]

As a non-movie making videographer, I think that this is where 720 60p/50p will come in handy for many of us doing corporate, broadcast, and event shoots. For me, 24p just happens to be a bonus for the times when it will be needed. I'm no interlace lover, I prefer progressive by far; although 24p sometimes nags me for it's motion judder, I think for my uses, 60p will be a great boon.

I wonder though, if the need arises, can 60p be effectively converted to 24p? Because I know that 30p to 24p is not easy to achieve.

[The_Video_Guy]

For me, 24p just happens to be a bonus for the times when it will be needed. *I'm no interlace lover, I prefer progressive by far; although 24p sometimes nags me for it's motion judder, I think for my uses, 60p will be a great boon.

Ya that's where I'm comin' from too... sometimes you just need the 60 frame video look to start with (hopefully progressive... interlaced would do). I HOPE Panasonic doesn't cripple itself like the Sony did by not putting a 60P option on the cam. Is there really any 60i at 720x480 HD? Would there be any reason why they don't implement 60P on the new cam? Where Sony drew the line in the sand with CF24 garbage and in a way abandon the indie market, I hope Panasonic doesn't shun the potential broadcastmarket and not have a 60p option on the cam.

True I am all for progressive too and it the FX1 was 1080P there I wouldn't even bother with a 720P... 24P or not.

[Barry_Green]

can 60p be effectively converted to 24p?
Certainly a conversion could be done. Film transfer houses have basically been converting 60i to 24p for years and years; 60p to 24p would be the same process (except you'd have twice as much information to start from, so it should yield better results).


Is there really any 60i at 720x480 HD?
Not sure what you're asking -- 720x480 is SD, and of course all SD has been 60i (prior to the introduction of the few progressive-scan cameras). I'm assuming you were asking "is there really any such HD format as 720/60i?" And if that's what you were asking, I believe the answer is no, nobody's doing 1280x720 at any interlaced frame rate, 60i or otherwise; 1280x720 seems to be only and ever progressive-scan.

*Would there be any reason why they don't implement 60P on the new cam?
Well, considering that there's only one camera in the world (that I know of) that shoots 1280x720x60p, and it costs $65,000... yes, there may be reasons. Of course, there may not be too... JVC implemented 60p (although at standard-def resolution, 720x480) on their HD1 camera... so maybe we'll get full 60p scanning too. Don't know, but we'll see.


I hope Panasonic doesn't shun the potential broadcastmarket and not have a 60p option on the cam.
As do we all! 60p would be fantastic for many reasons, the first of which is: reality shows, sports, news field reporting, anything where you want the "immediacy" of the "video" look, 60p would give you that (but with twice as much data per frame). But also, with 60p you could do flawless, lossless, perfect smooth magnificent slow motion. So I'm hoping we get 60p!

True I am all for progressive too and it the FX1 was 1080P there I wouldn't even bother with a 720P... 24P or not.
Well, that depends on what recording format it's using. Nobody in their right mind would argue that 720/24p is better than 1080/24p. But if that 1080 camera is recording to a low-bitrate MPEG-2 codec that seizes up for 15 frames at a time at the slightest hint of a dropout, etc., I'd still say there'd be a segment of the market who would vote for the 720 camera as long as it's using a quality codec and a loss-proof recording medium.

[Shaw]

I don't forsee a 1080p cam for quite some time!

[yellowdog]

I played my wedding vid on my cousin's high def toshiba.Shot in 4:3,just set the menu on the tv to full screen, looked perfectly fine.I'm not worried about hd or 16:9 if I can set the menu to full screen and then back to 16:9 , who cares? Content is what matters to me.
David

[xander76]

Certainly a conversion could be done. *Film transfer houses have basically been converting 60i to 24p for years and years; 60p to 24p would be the same process (except you'd have twice as much information to start from, so it should yield better results).

Are you sure about this? *I know that DVFilm won't transfer 30p footage to 24p because there's no smooth way to do it; are you sure that 60p doesn't have this problem as well?

Edited to answer my own question: I suppose you could always convert 60p to 60i by just throwing away half the data. Then, you could do a simple 60i to 24p conversion. Problem solved.

[Barry_Green]

60p is no different than 60i, motion-wise. Both are sampled 60 times per second. 60p just has more information per frame. If you wanted to "pretend" that 60p were 60i, all you'd have to do is throw away half of each frame, and you'd be left with 60 fields, and you most definitely can convert 60i to a simulation of 24p for film transfer; labs have been doing it for years.

The problem with 30p is that there's not enough motion samples to effectively convert down to 24p. But with 60p (or 60i) there's plenty of source info to work from.

(of course, the end result will not be the same as what you'd have gotten had you shot 24p in the first place... but the simulations have gotten pretty darn good.)

[SergejIvanovits]

The problem with 30p is that there's not enough motion samples to effectively convert down to 24p. *But with 60p (or 60i) there's plenty of source info to work from. *


Did you tried to convert 30p to 60i and than to 24p? How does it look?

If I would buy a DVX100AE today? No. It was nice to have and to use the DVX in some jobs where other camcorders was to big but new technologi gives new possibilities.

[scharky]

30p does not convert to 60i, per say. you are only getting 30 samples per second. whereas in 60i you are getting 60. now granted the 30 samples are twice the resoltuion of each single sample of 60i, but it is still just 30 motion samples to work with. That is why it cannot be converted.

[SergejIvanovits]

30p does not convert to 60i, You can convert what ever you have to what ever you like. Just try it. But I just wonder how does it look if you convert 30p to 24p. I'm in PAL and we use only 50i/25p.

[Barry_Green]

30p converted to 60i will look exactly like 30p. In fact, 30p on tape is recorded as 60i. Scharky's answer is exactly correct.

30p converted to 24p looks absolutely horrible, like CineFrame 24 on a drunken binge and being chased by a rabid bat. It's simply awful. I've seen it from an XL1/frame mode transferred to film and it was unwatchable.

[The_Video_Guy]

-I'm assuming you were asking "is there really any such HD format as 720/60i?" *And if that's what you were asking, I believe the answer is no, nobody's doing 1280x720 at any interlaced frame rate, 60i or otherwise; 1280x720 seems to be only and ever progressive-scan.
Well, considering that there's only one camera in the world (that I know of) that shoots 1280x720x60p, and it costs $65,000... yes, there may be reasons. *Of course, there may not be too... JVC implemented 60p (although at standard-def resolution, 720x480) on their HD1 camera... so maybe we'll get full 60p scanning too. *Don't know, but we'll see.
As do we all! *60p would be fantastic for many reasons, the first of which is: reality shows, sports, news field reporting, anything where you want the "immediacy" of the "video" look, 60p would give you that (but with twice as much data per frame). *But also, with 60p you could do flawless, lossless, perfect smooth magnificent slow motion. *So I'm hoping we get 60p!
Ya oops.. that is what I was asking... specified wrong aspect by accident. *But as far as you know 60i in 720HD doesn't exsist?... weird... you would think band widthwise for broadcast it would. *Mind you it would be sweet if they just skipped the option all together and just went 60P... now that would be sweet and your right for slow mo stuff it would be awesome!


Well, that depends on what recording format it's using. *Nobody in their right mind would argue that 720/24p is better than 1080/24p. *But if that 1080 camera is recording to a low-bitrate MPEG-2 codec that seizes up for 15 frames at a time at the slightest hint of a dropout, etc., I'd still say there'd be a segment of the market who would vote for the 720 camera as long as it's using a quality codec and a loss-proof recording medium.
True yes... I was making a general statment that 1080/24P would be better than 720 but I do agree there are other things to consider. *It will be interesting to see how this new debate card vs tape plays out in the long run. *It's clearly going to go the card route at sometime but it would appear unless cost/compression/record time ratio changes drastically, the transition to become mainstream may be a long long ways away... further than the HD transition itself. *To bad HD wasn't better quality/smaller size... whishful thinking. ::)

[Flintstone]

720 is only progressive, regardless of the frame rate. So there is no 60i.

[Boomerang]

I am in the market to buy another DVX. i would be more concerned about a DVX-200 or upgraded 'A' that has native 16:9. The HD factor is a whole new ball game to enter. So HDX sounds good but NLE wise it takes an even bigger investment. For a 200 model that would suck to buy a 100a prematurly. But the job dictates the purchase.

[Barry_Green]

The NLE question is something of a non-issue if you're using FCP-HD, as it natively supports the HDX's format. Same with Avid, and someone said Edius supports it as well.

Now, an HD monitor, well, that's another question...

No need for a deck though, because the HDX's P2 memory cards will plug right into a laptop or into a PC-Card reader on a PC/Mac (er, assuming there is such a thing, I'm pretty sure there is).

[alpi69]

I am in the market to buy another DVX. *i would be more concerned about a DVX-200 or upgraded 'A' that has native 16:9. The HD factor is a whole new ball game to enter. So HDX sounds good but NLE wise it takes an even bigger investment. For a 200 model that would suck to buy a 100a prematurly. But the job dictates the purchase.

exactly my thoughts and i just ordered mine.

barry, liquid edition supports it too once it is out i am sure. all NLEs will follow. i still am sure there are extra costs with the higher resolution, cos there will be more pixels to be shifted, but it is neglectable maybe compared to the price of the cam, P2 cards and monitors (not speaking of distribution of the HD footage).
in a year we all will have tried HD out and we shall see how it works by then.