DVCPRO-HD on MiniDV

[ettubaby]

Of what I've heard of the HDX is that it will use MiniDV tapes. The Sony HDV camera seem to be tapping out the format at 25. Any items how Panasonic is storing DVCPRO-HD on this format?

[scharky]

huh, where did you hear that?
P2 my brotha.

[xander76]

Yeah, Jan has said that DVCPRO-HD will not be recorded to MiniDV cassette. MiniDV tapes can't handle the speeds at which they would need to travel to record 100Mbps.

[ettubaby]

If you look in the "AJ-HDX100 - check camcorderinfo.com" thread, it is mentioned. And that's what is printed in camcorderinfo.com. That it will record to p2 cards and MiniDV tapes. Now the question is this camera DVCPRO-HD? I guess that kinda foolish, DVCPRO-HD is just a trademark not a standard.

[scharky]

Camcorderinfo.com :-X
Don't ever believe a single word of what is written on that site. IT is one of the poorest managed and unreliable sites on the net. If the HDX or whatever does include mini DV tape usage it would only be to record at 25mbps just like the DV of today. Again, the sources at Camcorderinfo are unreliable at best, and more often than not are baised opinions of the complete amutures that work on that site.
Stay away, stay far away.

[Barry_Green]

DVCPRO-HD is most definitely a standard, it's a worldwide standard that is supported by multiple cameras, decks, and editing systems. And the new camera will record in that format, as well as DVCPRO-50 and DVCPRO-25/miniDV.

[Robert_Niemann]

The new camera will record DVCPRO-25 with MiniDV cassettes? Where do You get that from, Barry? I thought, I had read somewhere, that the new camera will have no motorized section without the zoom one. ???

[Jan_Crittenden]

The new camera will record DVCPRO-25 with MiniDV cassettes? Where do You get that from, Barry? I thought, I had read somewhere, that the new camera will have no motorized section without the zoom one. ???


He didn't say that. He said that it recorded it, he didn't say to tape. DVCPRO is a SMPTE standard 306M-2002, with the simplified designation of D-7, this includes the DVCPRO50. It records to a Metal Particle Tape, SMPTE Standard 307M-2002. DVCPROHD is also a SMPTE standard 371M-2002, D-12.

Hope this helps,

Jan

[Gary_McClurg]

He didn't say that. *He said that it recorded it, he didn't say to tape. *DVCPRO is a SMPTE standard 306M-2002, with the simplified designation of *D-7, this includes the DVCPRO50. It records to a Metal Particle Tape, SMPTE Standard 307M-2002. *DVCPROHD is also a SMPTE standard 371M-2002, D-12.
*
Barry for us non tech guys please translate.

[Barry_Green]

She's saying that as part of the DVCPRO25 specification, it requires that the footage be recorded on metal particle tape (DV uses Metal Evaporated tape, a cheaper/less-robust/inferior technology). So if the camera were to have a tape drive and record DVCPRO25 to tape, it couldn't also be a miniDV tape drive, because the tape formulations aren't the same.

However, what I was saying was (unless I got it wrong, and Jan can correct me) I thought she'd said that the camera records all those formats. Obviously if there were a tape drive in the camera (which I don't know if that's been confirmed or not) it'd have to be either miniDV, or DVCPRO25, but not both. Although the data stream is identical (I believe it is), the difference between miniDV and DVCPRO25 is the tape format and the way it's recorded on tape.

Now, if it's recorded on P2, then that difference becomes irrelevant, as does the difference between DV and DVCAM -- the difference between DV and DVCAM is only in the way it's recorded on tape, but if you're not recording on tape, what's the difference?

(oh, one other difference is that DVCAM uses "locked audio", whereas miniDV uses "unlocked"... except for the DVX, which uses "locked" audio anyway!)

So, assuming that the camera could record miniDV footage to P2 cards, we could also further extrapolate and say that it was recording DVCAM, couldn't we? Since the bitstream is identical?

So do we indeed have a five-format camera coming? DVCPRO-HD, DVCPRO-50, DVCPRO-25, DVCAM, and miniDV? ;D

Okay, now extrapolating further: regarding tape, I think it's unlikely that there would be a DVCPRO-HD or DVCPRO-50 tape drive. It's so hard to keep track of the rumors and postulations and who-said-what, but I think it's very unlikely that we'd get those mechanisms on tape. So if there is tape at all, it'd be either DVCPRO-25 or miniDV, right? And what Jan is saying is that DVCPRO-25 can't be recorded on a miniDV tape, it'd by default become miniDV (assuming an identical biststream) because DVCPRO-25 uses a different type of tape, different track width, etc. So if there IS a tape drive, it seems reasonable to assume that it'd be miniDV. But it won't be both. If there is tape at all, it would seem reasonable to guess that it'd be either miniDV OR DVCPRO-25, but not both. And I'm sure, with all due respect to Jan, that we'd rather have miniDV, to maintain compatibility with our DVXes and all the decks and other things out there...

[Gary_McClurg]

Correct, me if I'm wrong and I'm also sure the over-zealous Sony lovers (HDprod, EurVwhatever, *and Jimmy) will want to tar and feather me. *Oh, well so is life.

So Sony to record to mini dv tape used a lesser quality format so that it could record both HDV and DV. * So if I'm guessing right Panny's DVCPROHD will blow the HDV codec out of the water.

Now I think the Sony camera has some good things, but 24p is what I want

Which will mean in my thinking the P2 cards will be a lot cheaper than people think. They'll have to be.

[mr._guiyotinne]

Gary you nail it! but you must say Real 24p looking and smiling in Sony´s direction ;D And at a much, much better price (i read Barry´s post from Sony´s release for NAB 2005 and yes it looks like the real, but in higher cams, so not perfect for S fans).

[Paolo Rudelli]

Hallo
first a want say sorry for my bad english...

I try to find out wich standar SMPTE (and format) is it the DVCPRO-HD from hvx-200 camera is.
i did a search on internet but i found so many info(discording?) and i still dont know.

is it
s274M
s292M
s370M(audio?)
s371M

or somthing else

thanks for help.

ADD: i found this table (in french) is the info right?
http://www.techniques-ingenieur.fr/dossier/enregistrement_magnetique_des_images_formats_numer iques/TE5772C

[Barry_Green]

Are you talking about DVCPRO-HD itself? Or the MXF format that DVCPRO-HD gets transported in on the HVX?

DVCPRO-HD, as a data format and compression system, is SMPTE 370M. It was first introduced on tape, and I believe that the relevant doc for that is SMPTE 371M. As implemented in the HVX it uses the MXF Op-Atom file format, which is SMPTE 390M.

[David Saraceno]

The point being is that the HVX200 does NOT record DVCProHD footage or DV50 footage to tape.

[Paolo Rudelli]

thx barry and david for u fast answer.
David: Yes i know u cant record dvcpro on mini-dv tape
Barry: what i was looking is the s370m smpte, thx for the info.

P

[ullanta]

S
So, assuming that the camera could record miniDV footage to P2 cards, we could also further extrapolate and say that it was recording DVCAM, couldn't we? Since the bitstream is identical?

OK, if we're gonna play these semantic games... is it possible to record MiniDV footage to a P2 card? I can see DV25, but isn't MiniDV a type of physical media?

[Paolo Rudelli]

u can record dv compression format in p2 card yes (minidv is only tape)
if i remeber good the main difference betwin dv format and dvcpro25 format is the dv is 4:2:0 and dvcpro25 is 4:1:1.
but maybe iam wrong some one can confirm this?

[ullanta]

As data, DVCPro and DV25 should be identical, 4:1:1 (in NTSC).

[David Jimerson]

But PAL DV (and DVCAM) is 4:2:0, while PAL DVCPRO 25 is 4:1:1.

[Barry_Green]

Yes, semantics all around. "miniDV" does indeed refer to the tape stock, and the combined data format and media it's recorded on. The compression system itself is called DV (or, more recently, "DV25" -- to specify the 25-megabits-per-second data rate).

The format's original name was DVC, the "C" standing for, IINM, "Cassette." It was dropped from the formal naming convention by Sony, but that's where the "C" comes from in DVCPRO (which is also frequently called DVCPRO25, for the same reasons as "DV25").

So yes, if we want to be technical, you can't record "miniDV" on the P2 card, you record DV25 to the card. You record miniDV to the tape drive.

Once you remove the tape from the equation, DVCAM and DV are identical in bitstream, except that DVCAM always uses "locked" audio, and consumer DV traditionally used "unlocked" audio. Not a problem for the DVX/HVX and the JVC "ProfessionalDV" lineup, as they all use "locked" audio anyway.

Once you remove the tape from the equation, DVCPRO25 and DV are almost identical (in NTSC) but not exactly. The compression and audio are identical, but there's a flag in the data stream that identifies DVCPRO25 data. If you're trying to send a firewire signal from a DV camcorder into an early DVCPRO25 deck, the deck will refuse to recognize the data stream if it doesn't see that flag in place. I believe Panasonic has removed that restriction in later DVCPRO25 gear. But the point is: if you're using an HVX and working with a TV station that has the early gear, don't use DV, choose DVCPRO25 (even though the image and audio quality will be identical).

In PAL, DV25 and DVCPRO25 are very different, as David said. PAL DV (and DVCAM) use 4:2:0 color sampling, PAL DVCPRO25 uses 4:1:1.