HDCAM footage sample for download?

[Pascal_Parvex]

I would like to know if I can edit HDCAM footage, so I'm looking for a sample of it that I can download.

[Barry_Green]

I don't think any desktop editing program supports the HDCAM codec, do they? If they do, I can't think of one...

[kai]

If you're just looking for HD footage in general, Panny had a free DVCPRO-HD dvd they were giving away awhile back that had a final cut source file as well as the raw clips to play with.

[ChuckS]

I don't think any desktop editing program supports the HDCAM codec, do they? If they do, I can't think of one...
Have you checked out http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm

[Pascal_Parvex]

I own InSync Blade 2, and it does also support 'HD'. And the program was last updatet, as there was no 'HDV'. So, I'm looking for a 'HD' sample.

[Barry_Green]

Well, the thing is, programs can edit "HD" if they support a 1280x720 or 1920x1080 frame size. But that doesn't mean you could edit native HDCAM. HDCAM is a compressed digital format on tape, and to edit it you either need to import it through HD-SDI into an uncompressed format, or you'd need some sort of capture card and import it through analog component, or you'd need some sort of software/hardware HDCAM codec.

Since you're trying to find an HDCAM clip on the web, I was assuming you were looking for a clip that's taken straight from the tape, unmodified, and would need the HDCAM codec... and I don't know what programs may be able to do that.

If you're looking for a raw uncompressed HD clip, that's going to be *huge*. About 30x as large as a regular DV .avi file, I think. About 62 megabytes per second.

Apple/Panasonic were distributing a DVD that had demo files of DVCPRO-HD on it, you could probably find some of those clips easier (but I don't know where to tell you to look for 'em).

[ChuckS]

Barry you should check out http://www.cineform.com. You bring the HD in exactly as you suggested using HD-SDI, in real time the CineForm codec compresses it prior to writing the stream to disk.

About five years ago, we participated in some encouraging experiments with Q-bit using wavelet transforms to compress 2K data streams. I suspect CineForm has taken this to the next step for HD. Normally full bandwidth 4:4:4 HD requires a little over 200MB/sec sustained, using wavelet compression it significantly reduces the data rate without any noticeable image loss – much better than DCT compression.

I doubt they can get a (10-bit) data rate down enough to use firewire but it would certainly be manageable using fiber channel drives. I also suspect that DVCPro-HD can use firewire because it is 4:2:2 8-bit. It doesn’t matter whose camera you use, an 8-bit image will never look as good as a 10-bit log (cineon) image. Quantel spent years and millions of dollars trying to prove 8-bits looked as good as 10-bit and failed. HD is a lot more like film than it is like video.

[Jan_Crittenden]

It doesn’t matter whose camera you use, an 8-bit image will never look as good as a 10-bit log (cineon) image. *

Hey HDCAM is 8 bit also. The reality is if you want ot transform to 10 bit on the desktop, you can do this but the payload for 10 bits on tape is just huge and the number of whirling dervishes to get it on tape makes 10 bit on a tape based system stunningly overpriced. And that is why you don't see 10 bit camcorders.

As far as how to get one of the DVD's they are on our website. But asBarry pointed out and perhaps it isn't clear, this DVD is in the native codec for DVCPROHD. It is a file meant to open in a timeline that expects a DVCPROHD codec so I am not sure this will get you where you want to go.

Best,

Jan

[Policar]

Doesn't only FCP support DVCPROHD?

Anyhow, I got the DVD in the mail and tried it out. I'm definitely impressed. It was just like editing DV, only with much more quality and resolution.

[Pascal_Parvex]

To make a long story short:

Blade supports BOXX-Output. So I took about 30 seconds of DV from the 100A and did output it to 1920x1080p (progressive). Then I changed the editing settings to BOXX, and imported the file to test it. And it worked, I can scrub through the file in realtime. Playback is also in realtime, but with about 50% frameskip. I think that's why they recommend 2 Gigabytes of RAM instead of my single one. And all the effects and transitions should work in realtime, with two, three, four, ...? streams of HD at once. But the files are huge. Over 3 Gigs for the some more that thirty second long file, that would make a bitrate of approximately 800 mbit. Whew.

Blade does not support the Codec for HDCAM as far as I know. But apart from that, Blade 2.2, from a company that no longer exists, is the way to go! :)

[Barry_Green]

I know CineForm has the ability to provide a codec that can edit HD data, but not as HDCAM, right? What I mean is, HDCAM is a 140-megabit data stream on tape (not too terribly much more than DVCPRO-HD at 100 megabits). I don't know of any editing programs that let you edit that data, instead you have to bring it in as uncompressed through HD-SDI, and then CineForm compresses that into their wavelet codec.

Or am I crazy?

Policar, FCP supports DVCPRO-HD only, but there are other programs too -- Avid Express HD, and Canopus Edius 3 also can edit DVCPRO-HD natively, and there may be others.

[ChuckS]

I think you are correct, bring the uncompressed HD through HD-SDI and CineForm compresses that into thier codec - in real time. So, that wouldn't be any different from bringing DVCProHD over firewire in real time, right? (Except at a higher bit rate) And the CineForm ProspectHD claims to work with HDV, DVCProHD and HDCAM.

The thing that is interesting to me about this workflow is that the codec is independent of the camera manufacturers and the application developers. Again I suspect that they are compressing using some combination of FFT and wavelet compression then because they are native to a PC they are simply putting it into an AVI wrapper - I would have gone with a QuickTime wrapper. ;D

I don't know how much into workflow everyone wants to get on the DVX forum, but it is now possible to manage file systems independently of operating systems and if you can control the codec independently you can build a facility that can 1) take advantage of economies of scale by applying image processing on only those parts of the data stream that require it, and 2) create a look that can be differentiated from the competition.

[Neil Rowe]

hopefully the list of supporting NLEs will expand before the camera actually comes out .. or shortly therafter. really cineform should just make a plugin similar to aspect HD *for vegas and HDV, that can be used for vegas or premiere or whatever to ingest/convert DVCPRO-HD since its compressed to the same codec and would be dealing with about the same amount of data afterwards, i really dont see how it makes a difference. espescially since it could just convert the file instead of having to do it in realtime.

currently its only available in a boxed solution (prospect HD) that ingests/outputs uncompressed HD through SDI and all with a monster PC which is why it costs 22,000 or whatever for prospect HD. *but they could just make a plugin that works for firewire ingesting of DVCPRO-HD or does simple file conversion or copying to their format to run on any acceptable PC just like Aspect HD or PPROs HDV plugin which is based on their codec as well.

anyway, hopefully well see something like that available for vegas and PPRO soon. *

edit: i think all of us vegas and PPRO users should bombard them with requests to realease a plugin like that.. call it "Respect HD or something "*spect HD " .. and it does for DVCPRO-HD over firewire or by file conversion what Aspect HD does for HDV.

[ChuckS]

i really dont see how it makes a difference. espescially since it could just convert the file instead of having to do it in realtime.
.

I think you are looking at it from a single NLE point of view. Non of the shows we produce are finished in a single application. Opening graphics are done in one application while compositing and color correction are done in others. If you have a common Codec (file format) that all the applications can share you will significantly reduce the latency between applications. If you only work on one show at a time and have less than a terabyte of information this probably doesn't make much difference to you.

However if you are working on several projects at the same time with five or six terabytes of info then anything you do reduce the amount of copying and moving data is a big plus. In addition, if the codec is independent and it had an API so that we could customize it to get the "exact" look we want, that would be significant too.