READ FIRST: The new P2 camera - what we know

[Barry_Green]

There are a lot of rumors, speculation, and frequently-asked questions about the new camera. *Here's an attempt to coordinate what we actually know (via official statements):

1) There is a new camera coming. *It will be announced at NAB, April 18-23 in Las Vegas.

2) *It will not be a replacement for the DVX100. *It will instead be a new, more expensive model. *The DVX100 is not being discontinued, it is a current model and will remain a current model.

3) *The new camera will record high-definition video, using DVCPRO-HD (not HDV).

4) *The new camera will record at 24p! *We don't know what other frame rates it may have, but we do know that it will record high definition video at 24p.

5) *The new camera supports several recording formats: high-definition using DVCPRO-HD (with 4:2:2 color sampling in a 100-megabit data stream); standard-def using DVCPRO-50 (with 4:2:2 color sampling in a 50-megabit data stream, basically a recording format equivalent to Digital Betacam); and standard-def video using miniDV or DVCPRO-25 (4:1:1 video in a 25-megabit data stream)

6) The new camera will record to P2 solid-state memory cards (the same cards used by the SPX800 camera).

7) *While we do not know what the camera will look like, or what form factor it will be, we do know for a fact that it's not the "Super 8" ray-gun-looking mockup as shown during 2004's NAB show.

8 ) We do not know the price yet, but we have been told two things about price: it'll be "priced competitive with the Sony", and it'll be "under $10,000". *What is included for a $10,000 price is not known... it could be a package deal, or it could be the camera by itself, or... well, we don't know.

Things we do not know:
When it will be available on the market.
What frame rates it shoots at (other than 24p). *60i? *60P?
What resolution it shoots at (1080? *720?)
Whether it has a tape drive of any sort.
Whether it has firewire streaming of any type.
What the form factor will be (handycam? *Shoulder-mount?)

Other than these things, nothing is known. *Anyone who claims to know otherwise is likely not telling the truth, because those who *do* know are under non-disclosure agreements. *We believe that a full announcement will be made at NAB, and any speculation prior to then is just that -- speculation.

[chi_red]

woo,
great post,
thanks again Barry.
I just hope it will be less than 6000 ;)

[geffy]

"There are a lot of rumors, speculation, and frequently-asked questions about the new camera. *Here's an attempt to coordinate what we actually know (via official statements): "
so the rest is speculation and possibly true! :-X

[Shaw]

We also know it will cost more than the DVX with the Anamorphic adapter. Jan said this in one of these threads. Can't remember which. That right there puts us above 4200 USD. I suspect we'll end up seeing a camera around 6K.

[chi_red]

Does anybody know what NLE editing program supports DVCPRO-HD?
I hear Final Cut Pro does, but what about programs for PC?
I am a Premiere Pro 1.5 user and I hope they come up with free upgrades/plug ins for DVCPRO-HD(Adobe said that they would release free HDV upgrades many months ago, but still no news) :(

[OPHERBA]

Windows XP does not support DVCPRO natively.(you can not connect a DVCPRO camera/video to a firewire card and transfer your material to the computer. In order to do that you need a card like Matrox RTX100 with its own plug ins, but this card does not support DVCPRO 50 or 100).

[hvpz]

For windows, Avid Xpress Pro HD will support DVCPRO HD (mid 2005).

http://www.avid.com/company/releases/2004/041208__xpressprohd_prod.html

[Jan_Crittenden]

Windows XP does not support DVCPRO natively.(you can not connect a DVCPRO camera/video to a firewire card and transfer your material to the computer. In order to do that you need a card like Matrox RTX100 with its own plug ins, but this card does not support DVCPRO 50 or 100).


Well the reality is that Avid does support the DVCPRO50 and Hd natively over firewire on a PC. *This was announced at DV Expo. *They also support P2 very effectively. *The did a demo last year where they were editing off of the card with 5 streams of video on the timeline, off the cad. *So yes there are PC options available.

The mid-2005 comment on the release was for HDV support, not DVCPROHD.

Best,

jan

[xander76]

Also, Jan told someone in a thread (I think on another board) that the camera would be released "after the spring thaw in California". A person on the board said she had to film a scene in snow, and she had asked Jan if she should wait for HDX100 or if it would come out too late for the snow to still be there.

[ChuckS]

Whether you can edit HD on a PC is a function of the video card, Codec or both. I have edited with FCPHD with the DVCProHD CODEC over firewire from a Panasonic HD1200A. Very nice. However, I was not impressed with the final image quality. I believe that this may be a result of FCP/Radion 9800 being an 8bit application. This begs the question, Jan is the DVCPro HD Codec 8bits?

For the PC folks you can check out Cannopus http://www.canopus.us/Index_US.asp - or Cineform http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm or BOXX http://www.boxxtech.com and Avid. Although the HD picture quality coming out of the Mac was marginal, Apple seems to be the furthest along integrating HD into their workflow. It will be interesting to see how far the others have come at this NAB.

[Flintstone]

DVCProHD is 8-bit.

[mroczkowski83]

A friend of mine is on the development team of this camera. He said that the camera is unbelievable and you wont be able to tell the difference between it and an expensive HD camera. I can't wait. They plan to overtake the independant filmmaker market. Watch out hollywood.

[robroysyd]

Given that it will use P2 cards I don't see why you'd need a 1394 connection, all you'd need is a card reader and that'd be much faster than firewire. With an application like Vegas all you need is the appropriate codec to edit the video. I don't quite know what you'd output to but with Vegas you can output to uncompressed HD so long as you've got the disk space to burn. From that you can output to HDCAM although not using Vegas (as yet).

[Barry_Green]

Well, I can think of a few reasons why I'd want a firewire port... first, if the camera does have DV tape, it'd be nice to be able to use it in the same old workflow we've always enjoyed. Second, firewire preview of video from the timeline. Third, the ability to clone from camera to camera without needing a computer in between.

Fourth, and most importantly to me, would be the potential of streaming firewire from that port out to a hard disk. Can you imagine picking up a 300-gb hard disk at Fry's, for $150 or whatever, and being able to store 12 hours of HD720/24p footage for $150? I mean, that's a whole lot cheaper than DVCPRO-HD or HDCAM tape!

Finally, let's not forget about the dream product: HD Rack! If processor speeds quadruple in the next few months (a guy can dream, can't he?) then maybe Serious Magic would grace us with a DVCPRO-HD version of DV Rack...

For editing, you're right, plucking the P2 card and plugging it into the computer will be infinitely faster/easier/better than trying to capture through firewire. But also, it's possible that the camera would work as an external drive through firewire... so if you had a computer that didn't have a PCMCIA reader or available slot or whatever, you could maybe still hook the camera up through firewire and use the camera to read the P2 cards, and the computer will see the camera as an external hard disk. That's the way the SPX800 works, so hopefully the new camera will do that as well.

[Gary_McClurg]

Just looked at the Panny site again at the AJ-PCD10 drive again that will hold 5 P2 cards so that if a shot runs over onto several cards you can just import it into your NLE as one shot.

I'd just like to find out how much and will it work with Mac.

[nullphonic]

I dropped DVRack (Serious Magic) an email recently regarding DVCPRO-HD... (The highlights)

"We are not currently developing for the other formats."

"As you have seen we are looking into the HDV format. Additionally, you
can bring in 16x9 footage as long as the resolution is still 720x480"

"DV Rack is based around the DV video codec. Thus HDV would be the more
likely format of any HD formats."

(Thanks to Ryan Thomas other there, very quick reply)

Maybe we can provoke those guys to look into it (DVCPRO-HD) since the drop date for the new cam is probably October+ *:)

I was just concerned with the monitoring/setup features (white balance, other waveform tools, etc) and NOT the recording so much at least to begin with.

[Barry_Green]

Supporting any HD format is going to be a challenge for them -- I mean, think of what that program already does, and the fact that it can pull it off on just a 1.5ghz processor, that's just staggering. But then ask it to handle 6x as many pixels... that's asking a lot. But here's to hoping they can do it!

I hope they support both. The resolutions will be the same, so once they tackle the hard part of manipulating the 1920x1080 or 1280x720 frame, and slinging all those pixels around, then the actual format (HDV or DVCPRO-HD) should be as simple as changing out a call to which codec to use to uncompress the frame.

I can't speak for them, of course, as I'm not a developer on their team. But I was a programmer for 15 years so I know something about program design, and if they have designed the program properly (and I believe they have, it's just AMAZING) then it would seem that they could approach HD in a way that would leave open options for other codecs.

[Jan_Crittenden]

As far as Apple support for P2 look here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/cgi-bin/DVX2/YaBB.pl?board=HDV;action=display;num=1109361326

There is an answer from Apple there.

Best,

Jan

[Zig_Zigman]

the guys over at sonyhdinfo who took a meeting with Panny say it will have a P2 drive AND a tape drive.

[Rich Lee]

how cool is it that we are getting panasonic and apple product managers posting messages on this board!?

i think its totaly rad myself....

[Jan_Crittenden]

the guys over at sonyhdinfo who took a meeting with Panny say it will have a P2 drive AND a tape drive.



Can you point me to this post?

Thanks,

Jan

[kai]

OOOooooooo somebody's in trooooouble!!!

[Flintstone]

LOL :D

[Zig_Zigman]

CORRECTION:

I think this was the post I was referring to

http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_post.php?postid=110803732465870&forumid=162

I believe I got the new JVC cam mixed up with the new Panny cam.

I stand corrected. Jan has said NO tape drive.

Carry on.

[Jan_Crittenden]

CORRECTION:

I think this was the post I was referring to
http://www.creativecow.net/forum/read_post.php?postid=110803732465870&forumid=162
Jan has said NO tape drive.


Hi, That's cool, but it isn't that I said there wasn't, I only said that I couldn't comment. This thread is pretty interesting in that it goes on forever, and it has all of the misconcptions about P2 and its workflow in it. Some of the guys get it but as usual, some don't.

Best,

Jan

[Flintstone]

That's the problem with any new technology that changes the way one is used to work. I still think that direct connect hard drives will be a cheaper solution in the short term for this new HDX. But when the size of P2 cards become larger and more affordable... It will be a no brainer.

[Barry_Green]

... and if it offers firewire streaming of HD data, you could do both!

(and Jan didn't DENY that there's a tape drive, notice... hmmm...) ;D

[Robert_Niemann]

Slowly I come to the conjecture, that the new camera will arrive with P2 AND tape drive. Then I suggest, the price will be 5.999 dollars without a P2 media.

[shAi]

Slowly I come to the conjecture, that the new camera will arrive with P2 AND tape drive. Then I suggest, the price will be 5.999 dollars without a P2 media.

i sure hope so...

[Monglane]

Of course it will have a tape drive.

Jan is, as usual, very nice and very fair to us, and you've got to read between the lines... When someone in her position takes the pain to specify that she didn't say it won't have a tape drive, instead of just letting the issue drop, the meaning should be quite clear to all of us, in my opinion.

[Robert_Niemann]

A tape drive, that can read MiniDV cassettes, would be fine. Then all of my MiniDVs were saved, while selling my old camera and getting the new.

[Zig_Zigman]

Isn't the tape drive for dvcpro diff than mini-dv?

By the way, Jan said there would not be a tape drive in this post here -

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39453

[Robert_Niemann]

Well, already many a person has racked his brain about what Jan said or did not say in that post. 8)

[maddix]

in about a month i was thinking of purchasing the AG-DVX100A....but with this news of a new camera, .. do you guys think i should wait and buy the new one instead? i will mostly use the camera for trying to make independent movies.....or do you think the quality of the new camera will be similar to the AGDVX100A, i am not all that educated on these cameras, so any input would help, thanks

[Flintstone]

It's all a question of need... want is another thing. Do you need something now? If the answer is yes, then get the DVX100A. If you can wait, then wait at least until mid-April when the official annoucement is made at NAB2005; then you'll get a better idea of how much more time you have to wait for it to ship. My guess is that it won't be available until late Q3, or Q4 of 2005. I hope I'm wrong.

[reservoir]

I have a *feeling* we might not even have to wait that long (April 18th). Something tells me we might here more about the new camera before the big debut. A Leak? Maybe. Propaganda? Maybe. More fuel for the hype? Definately!! Either way my ears & eyes are bonded to internet until then. You know you've got it pretty bad when you are dreaming about DVX's at night and counting FPS instead of Sheep to fall asleep!! ~reservoir~

[Flintstone]

Yep, you got it pretty bad reservoir. I think you should see a shrink. ;D

Seriously, I believe that if we see/hear another leak, it's most likely going to be close to NAB. The feeling I have now about the original leak is that Panasonic might somewhat be disappointed that their thunder has been taken away. So they may end up tightening the ship and plugging any holes until the time comes.

Then again, I could be wrong... oh gee, I wish I'm wrong. All I see are HDXes when I sleep... OK! Got to go now... it's my psychologist appointment in 5 minutes. :D

[reservoir]

Just got back from mine. New perscription. Oxycontin!! Supposed to get me high as a kite and make me forget all about dvx's and filmmaking. Not sure I'm ready for that. Maybe I'll just sell the pills over on Lee St. Probably get enough for a good down payment on the HDX. So anyway, I've wondered from day one if the so-called *leak* was actually a leak at all or just a marketing ploy to build speculation, buzz, hype, hysteria, acts of violence....ok maybe not all that but...maybe just enough to slow Sony FX-1 and Z1U Sales until NAB. These so-called *leaks* happen all the time throughout EVERY industry whether it be Honda's new Hybrid car or Motorola's new Camera phone or even Taco Bell's new Spicy Chicken Burrito!! Point is I wouldn't put it past Panasonic, OR ANY COMPANY to intentionally leak information that they know *DAMN WELL* will cause' us to be sitting here drooling over their new product. It's great marketing. Was it a Leak, or was it mass conspiracy? Who the hell knows. All I KNOW is that if the new HDX is as good as promised, my dvx / hdx decision will be simple. Anyone else? ~reservoir~

PS - 150 dollars per hour for my psychotherapy is killing me. I just blew some nice accessories this week seeing her. Damn!!

[bilgami]

any pics of the cam yet?

[geffy]

my dvx / hdx decision will be simple. *Anyone else? *~reservoir~
hdx by a 16:9 mile ::) who cares about high definition just give me 16:9 full chip, 1/2 inch wouldve been nice though, rumour or gossip?:)

[bilgami]

it is funny how there all these hd cams out there but hd is not in every ones home yet. who can see hd rite now anyway.

[comet48]

How about wmv-hd, and divx-hd. There is a player for the latter.

[reservoir]

I can see HD right now. 57' sony HD TV with HD300 Direct TV receiver. Pretty nice setup. They just lauched 2 new satellites so hopefully we will be getting more HD content soon. I am anxiously awaiting the release of Blu-ray DVD this year as well. I really hope it takes off, else I'll have a 2005-2006 model Laserdisc player or a very large paper-weight / doorstop. ~reservoir~

[Caution]

I just don't understand one thing about the new panasonic hd cam I mean the rumored price tag is about 10g's and above without the p2 card, I mean i am sure a lot of you have stacks of money laying around but I doubt everyone does, this camera looks like its gonna cost a arm and a leg from the prices being rumored, not to metion buying the seprate hardware and Hd monitors etc. etc. and you will still end up with a 1/3 3 ccd camera don't get me wrong I am not saying the camera is bad in any way I am sure its gonna be great and beat all its competition but at what price to a indi filmmaker/prosumer ? and majority will still be sending it out to dvd unless they want to reprint to film which i doubt will be feasiable unless you have a backing of a big time producer in that case in my opnion it would be stupid to even shoot digital if your going to end up with your final print to film why not just shoot film. One of the main reasons for the dvx success in my opnion was that of its price tag. I hope Panasonic does something about this pricetag :-/

[xray]

Sony and the new coming JVC HD :-> do come with a tape drive, if the intention of Panasonic is to go without it, I think it would slow down its progress. Why? we need the possibility to preserve and store our material in the field on cheap media. The step to go with 'nice but expensive' memorycards isn't always the best option.

There are talks about the 'dropframe' problem with long gop HDV material, you can loose 0.5 second. What if you cant easy save your recordings on tape? You loose 15 minutes... The pricetag of the memorycards is to high to bring a lot of them, so you have to dump it to a harddrive. If you have a problem there you lose it all. I mean a tape is a tape, it can be destroyed to but it is a simple concept, and easy to store. Not so with a portable hd or computer.

Why isn't Panasonic clear if there will be a tape drive or not?

[xander76]

I just don't understand one thing about the new panasonic hd cam I mean the rumored price tag is about 10g's and above without the p2 card

The stated price is "under $10K", and Jan has made a point of saying that it is not specified what you would get for that price. There was also guidance earlier from Panasonic that the camera would be priced close to the Sony Z1.

Many people have taken this to mean that the camera will be in the $5K range, and a full kit with multiple P2 cards will be in the $10K range. This is of course all speculation, but I would disagree that the rumored price is $10K without P2 cards.

[stephenlnoe]

Hi,

Edition 6 broadcast will edit P2 and DVCPro50 (422). I plan on getting the HDX when it is available even if it is $10,000. It just makes good business sense since it will be multiformat (DVCPro 25/50/100). It would be nice to interchange the lenses but it is not a requirement for me. It is written that this camera will do SD422. This colorspace and DVCPro50 are great for broadcast work if your local stations will accept DVCPro50 (which they do here in Chicago). Straight to the satellite boys and girls.

No doubt about it, the Panasonic HDX should steal the NAB show.

[Zig_Zigman]

DVCPRO50 and 100 do not have the drop frame problem that HDV does, at least in the Sony flavors. Don't know about the JVC.

[Barry_Green]

The JVC will have less of an issue with it, because it uses a shorter group of pictures. With the Sony implementation of HDV (1080i), the compression groups pictures together in 15-frame groups. A dropout in any of them results in a loss of all of them, which causes the 1/2-second freeze-up (15 frames dropped out of 30 frames per second).

With the 720p implementation of HDV (as chosen by JVC) the group of pictures is smaller, at 6 frames per group, so a dropout in any of those six frames will result in dropping all six. That would be 1/10 of a second at 60p, or about 1/5 of a second at 30p. So the potential for freezeup is a lot less with the 720p version.

Any camera that records on tape can suffer from dropouts, as the dropouts are a tape-based thing, not a format thing. DVCPRO-HD could be hit by a dropout too, if it's recorded on tape. In its case (and DVCPRO-50 and DV) those dropouts would result in the loss of one frame. In MPEG-2, the same dropout can cause the loss of an entire GOP, depending on how long the GOP is. In MPEG-IMX the GOP is 1 frame long, but in HDV it can be as long as 15 frames.

[stephenlnoe]

The loss of an I frame would not loose the entire GOP.


Back to the Edition solution:

Pinnacle Edition uses LongGOP on their timeline to edit M2V (or M2T) which allows for the GOP to be broken up and still not loose any data.

People think you can not perform frame accurate rendering, however Pinnacle have been able to overcome that difficulty so it is not an issue.

It does mean higher CPU requirements to decode the MPG2 streams, but that is the only negative to editing in Long GOP.

With other approach's, you have to convert all your footage to the likes of a cineform codec for editing, and then re-render ALL of your timeline back to MPG2 for export. That double codec conversion and double MPG2 encoding of every frame can't be a good thing. At least with LE you are only reencoding areas changed by effects which can be most of your project.

These facts make Edition a good choice for HD editing on the PC side.

What are your thoughts?

[Barry_Green]

The loss of an I frame would not loose the entire GOP.
Actually it appears that the loss of any frame causes the entire GOP to drop. I've seen HDV dropouts, and there are user reports of 'em on the web, and the story's always the same: a 1/2-second freeze-up. Seems that there might be some sort of group error correction going on, and if there's a dropout on tape, the data is corrupted to some degree, and the error correction fails, thus dropping the entire group.

[stephenlnoe]

I have heard of this only on the Sony's. Our user group over at the Pinnacle site has the FX1's trickling on board. I've not heard this from the JVC's. Sony may have rushed the FX1 effort.

I've personally been using DVC30's for some time now and will go HD with the HDX100. Does anyone know for sure if the camera will support DVCPro50 in 720P resolution?

[Barry_Green]

DVCPRO50 is a standard-resolution codec. DVCPRO-HD is what supports 720p. So if you're shooting DVCPRO50, you're shooting basically Digital Betacam caliber video, at 4:2:2 with extremely mild compression. But it's still standard-def.

DVCPRO-HD is the format used on the VariCam, for 720p. It also is used in the HDX400 camera for 1080i (DVCPRO-HD supports both 720p and 1080i, although the existing cameras choose one or the other resolution).

Jan has said the camera will definitely support both DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO-HD.

[abeljerrod]

How about wmv-hd, and divx-hd. There is a player for the latter.

Actually there is a player available that will play both the divx and the wmv files as well:

http://www.mediumblend.com/abelstore/customer/product.php?productid=685&cat=14&page=1

[stephenlnoe]

DVCProHD. Hmmnnn.. What is the native file type for DVCProHD, raw off of the camera?

[Jarred Land]

Actually it appears that the loss of any frame causes the entire GOP to drop. I've seen HDV dropouts, and there are user reports of 'em on the web, and the story's always the same: a 1/2-second freeze-up. Seems that there might be some sort of group error correction going on, and if there's a dropout on tape, the data is corrupted to some degree, and the error correction fails, thus dropping the entire group.


I was with Barry a few months ago and saw in person a GOP DROP... and it was ugly :)

[Barry_Green]

DVCProHD. Hmmnnn.. What is the native file type for DVCProHD, raw off of the camera?
Well, raw off the camera, it's on tape currently, so there is no file type.

The existing DVCPRO-HD cameras all record to tape.

The upcoming camera will be the first that records DVCPRO-HD directly to P2 cards. There is an existing camera (the SPX800) that records DVCPRO-50 to P2 cards (and also DV/DVCPRO). I don't know what file format it uses.

[Jan_Crittenden]

If you were looking at video right off the camera it would be an uncompressed HD signal. On tape there is within the DVCPRO/DV family a structure called DIF and all are laid out in this structure on tape. All of the media players recognize it. As the data rate goes up there needs to be a an implementation that tells the media player that it is a bigger DIF than the others for it to play but that is within a standard and folks can do it.

Hope that helps,

Jan

[BLUESPIDER]

Hey Barry, would you buy this camera?

[jnolla]

Hey Barry, would you buy this camera?

Common BlueSpider, he problably already has it :-)

[stephenlnoe]

OK if it is DIF then it is Pseudo AVI. What are the capture methods for DVCProHD. Is it a composite connection or is there 1394 transfer of the data?

[NoahK]

DVXPROHD can be captured via Firewire via a 1200A deck. This is from the Varicam. With the P2 camera it will be a direct digital transfer via a P2 reader unit over USB-2 or presumably via the cam itself if it indeed has a 1394 connection.

The question remains what will be the format stored by the camera on the P2 cards themselves. If it is in the native DIF format there will either need to be direct support for it in the NLE or a conversion utility for the computer. Or alternatively a menu option in the camera to select QuickTime, AVI or whatever. The underlying data is usually the same it just needs the proper header information to be compatible/playable.

Noah

[stephenlnoe]

That is exactly the question. The format on the tape is not raw binary data. It has some type of header to identify it to FCP or anything that supports it's file type. The native format on the FX1 is M2T (which is MPEG2).

If the DVCProHD is DIF then a single dropped frame is just that, one frame, since there are no GOP parameters. Is anyone sure of this DIF file type native on the camera (tape or P2?)

PS. What are your thoughts of Avid buying Pinnacle?

[Barry_Green]

Hey Barry, would you buy this camera?
Unquestionably. I mean, let me prequalify: it's hard to say for sure until the details are released, so part of what I'm saying is going on faith -- i.e., faith that Panasonic will hit another in their continuous stream of out-of-the-park home runs (DVX, SDX, VariCam, etc).

Part of why I'm pre-sold is due to what we already know... I mean, I pre-ordered a Z1, but canceled that and am now anxiously awaiting the HDX-whatever-it's-called... the addition of pure progressive scan and 24P frame rate, plus 4:2:2 color sampling, were enough of an advantage to relegate the Z1 to the "not interested/also-ran" pile. The uncompressed audio is a big advantage -- especially if it'll offer more than two channels (DVCPRO50 offers four, DVCPRO-HD offers 8, but will the camera have the connections? I sure hope so!)

But the real kicker, to me, was the addition of DVCPRO-50. That's Digital Betacam-caliber recording! Even though I remain somewhat unconvinced that HD is going to take over in consumer homes any time soon, maybe 5-10 years before it's in the majority, I would like to be able to shoot it now for my own indie film projects. But DVCPRO50 is something I can put to work TODAY. Not one client has asked for HD yet (although I expect that they will start, by next year), but every project I do in SD could benefit from 4:2:2 color sampling. We just did an all-greenscreen project for one of the major casino companies here, 20 minutes of "Wizard of Oz" footage, and 4:2:2 would have made it look so much better... that's a feature I can put to work today, and charge more for today. Brilliant move on Panasonic's part to include DVCPRO50.

Now, the P2 cards are fascinating to me. I despise tape, I despise logging tape, taking shot logs, circling takes, hunting on tape for clips, hours of digitizing, correcting sparkly dropouts in post, recapturing because there's a dropped frame during capture, etc. I've had my eye on the FS-4, but I'm not encouraged by early user reports. And while I *love* DV Rack, I've seen dropped frames on the hard disk recording. P2 will never have a dropped frame, never glitch, etc. DV Rack's great for sit-down locations, but not for convention or event shooting.

And P2 means no need for a deck! I mean, it really seems like they're listening to what we want, and delivering it. For my workflow -- narrative dramatic production, television commercials, corporate films, etc., the P2 workflow seems like it would be nearly perfect. I can see for some types of usage that it wouldn't be preferable to tape (like for the documentary filmmaker spending three months away from civilization backpacking across Chile or whatever), but for what I do, I can't imagine a better workflow.

Plus, I gotta get one -- there's a whole HDX Book/DVD to work on, you know! :)

Seriously, I am very interested, but if Panasonic doesn't deliver the goods, I'd have to stop and rethink. It's got to be good, it's got to be better than the Z1 or the JVC, before it'll get my cash. I am taking it on faith that it will be, and keeping my interest level astoundingly high. With Jan at the helm (the visionary behind the DVX and SDX), I have a high degree of confidence that it'll be a great camera. But if somehow it were to fall short, well... the DVX is a solid little camera. I can wait for the "right" camera to come along. I believe the "HDX" will probably be it, although truthfully the ball is in Panasonic's court -- they have to deliver the goods before I, or any of us, will buy it.

But I'm betting they will.

[reservoir]

Dropped frames on DV rack recording? What the hell? Does this happen alot....and will it happen with other Hard Drive recording like Firestore? Please God in heaven say NO!! I am sooo wanting to bite the bullet and get the DVX with DVrack and Firestore. But not if it's gonna be dropping frames on me. I'd be using it on a P4 laptop with a 7200 rpm harddrive and 1 gig of memory. That should handle everything efficiently according to the DV rack specs. I am guessing that maybe if DVrack is dropping frames that is has to do with the computer not being able to capture fast enough due to a lack of processing power, memory, hard drive speed or maybe a fragmented drive? Please shed some on light on this. Thanx!! ~reservoir~

[Zim]

Barry I was going through old tapes today looking for flood and fires I recorded doing freelance stuff for a local TV station,(when they used to pay). I made a copy of all of it for the local fire department. What a pain going through all those tapes. No tapes would be great. I just hope somehow Panasonic finds a way to sell the cards cheap and the camera under $5,000. Since I sold my XL1s and bought a new digital Nikon my budget is rather small!!

[Jan_Crittenden]

And the answer is exactly as I said. It is a DIF file. Each Frame stands on its own on the P2 and on Tape. On tape, on memory it is the same.

Hope that helps,

Jan

[stephenlnoe]

Jan, That means any NLE that supports HD's resolution would be able to edit the DIF/AVI files (and DVCProHD codec). That is great. I have the Access HD Varicam demo DVD in my hand. Which folder contains the native file?

PS Have you guys checked in to Scenalyzer or TepX for logging? What an incredible time saver.

[Zim]

Jan is Panasonic going to let out a little more info on the HDX before the NAB? Just alittle more? There must be something new you can tell us!

[XCheck]

JJust alittle more? There must be something new you can tell us!One of the books on filmmaking I have (I wish I remember which one - I have over a dozen) says:


Make them laugh, make them cry, but above all, make them WAIT!

How true... nothing builds a dramatic arc like the audience's desire to know! :grin:

[Jan_Crittenden]

The only difference is the scalable resolution in the DIF file, as in DV50 and DV100. So at this point those that will work natively are Avid and FCP.

Hope that helps,

Jan

[Zim]

If the story has a good ending waiting is ok,,,

[Jan_Crittenden]

Jan, I have the Access HD Varicam demo DVD in my hand. Which folder contains the native file?

I really don't know as I have never used that DVD. I did not produce that DVD. Perhaps someone else here has ordered that DVD and has been successful will chime in, maybe Noah?

Which edit system are you trying to use it with?

Best,

Jan

[lebroz]

Q for Jan...

honest how much input do you have on this hdx that is coming. hard to believe any considering manufactureing and how ny now the model would surely be set for mas production by now...

just an extra, cause i'm sure you actually have the power to tell pana broadcast about certain accacories...

make them have a 2.5inch laptop enclosure with lithium battery, users buy the hard drive(whatever size they want) so basically a box with a lil lcd and a few buttons, that goes on your belt or clips on the cam and has a removable battery pack

and if this is too much, mabe youll lose your job over offering users something as fair as that...

get me hired and i'll do ittt ... just do it... worked for nike

[reservoir]

and if this is too much, mabe youll lose your job over offering users something as fair as that...


...And people thought lil' ol *reservoir* made some bad posts. Wowzers!! ~reservoir~

[Jan_Crittenden]

lebroz asked:

>honest how much input do you have on this hdx that is coming. hard to believe any considering manufactureing and how ny now the model would surely be set for mas production by now...

So do you think I just started to work for them yesterday? I have worked for Panasonic since 1986. This camera has been under development for some time. I am the product manager and have been since it was a scribble on a piece of paper and was two different cameras. But I am not the entire design team, We have some very clever and able engineers working on this and attempting to get everyone the best bang for the buck.

>just an extra, cause i'm sure you actually have the power to tell pana broadcast about certain accacories...

Do you mean Accessories?

>make them have a 2.5inch laptop enclosure with lithium battery, users buy the hard drive(whatever size they want) so basically a box with a lil lcd and a few buttons, that goes on your belt or clips on the cam and has a removable battery pack

Please take a look at the other posts where we have discussed a P2 Store device, it sounds like what you are talking about here.

>and if this is too much, mabe youll lose your job over offering users something as fair as that...

I don't get this comment. Why would I lose my job?

Best regards,

Jan

[lebroz]

Jan your so cool n calm...



So do you think I just started to work for them yesterday?
>

sorry i meant as of now, like within 2005 anything and everything people ask for is pointless, you added all that info to back yourself up but it wasnt needed, you didnt answer really good way to remind people who you are though =-)

Do you mean Accessories?
>make them have a 2.5inch laptop enclosure with lithium battery, users buy the hard drive(whatever size they want) so basically a box with a lil lcd and a few buttons, that goes on your belt or clips on the cam and has a removable battery pack (i know this wont come a lot of money pana will lose)

>and if this is too much, mabe youll lose your job over offering users something as fair as that...

I don't get this comment. Why would I lose my job?

you woudnt it was just an excuse for me to hint to you to get me a job working with pano =-0

Jan

Best regards, L.J.

[Barry_Green]

RE: DV Rack dropped frames...

First encounter was when the laptop was under-RAM'd. It had 256, as recommended by Serious Magic, but apparently some of that was "shared" RAM with the graphics card, so that may have affected it. Boosted up to 768mb of RAM, that sure seems to have solved that issue.

Most recently we've been using DV Rack to record every shot of a feature. All recording is being done to an external USB2 HD, which was blank. Towards the end of the first week it started actuing unusually -- it was still slave recording, but the DP would press "record", and it would be like 10 seconds before the DV Rack monitor would show that it was actually recording. And the drive would be grinding like mad. And then after he'd call "cut", the computer and hard drive would be working furiously for another 30-40 seconds. Near as I can tell, somehow the footage is recorded properly, although I"m not the editor so I don't know for sure (all I know is I haven't heard any screaming from the editor).

So I love the program, I think it's magnificent, but I'm a little concerned as well...

[reservoir]

Thank you Barry. You made my day. Well I try my best to always overpower any application with more than enough RAM and processing power. That's weird about the external HD. If it was blank it shouldn't have been fragmented or anything. I do know for a fact that when capturing footage from a camera the hard drive does go crazy caching all the data and trying to write it in a continous frament. You can view your hard drive after the capture is complete by looking at the defragmentation analyser and clearly see one HUGE block of RED about 11 gigs for my one hour of footage. I would assume you could check that for your projects as well. DV rack probably tries to keep things together in the same type of data clusters. Thanks again for the reply Barry. I feel alot more confident about using DV rack now. ~reservoir~

[Neil Rowe]

the DP would press "record", and it would be like 10 seconds before the DV Rack monitor would show that it was actually recording. And the drive would be grinding like mad. And then after he'd call "cut", the computer and hard drive would be working furiously for another 30-40 seconds.

..yep. sounds like rabies.
...have you noticed any foam around the cd rom?

[stephenlnoe]

Jan, I'm working with Edition 6.1 which has a DVCPro50 workflow but no DVCProHD. I'm sure you've heard that Avid is attempting the purchase of Pinnacle. The guys on the Chrome side are cancelling their orders until something is known. I was hoping Panasonic's HD solution will work in Edition 6.x before Avid get's their hands on it.

[jnolla]

Avid already purchased Pinnacle!

[Neil Rowe]

..and avid is a joint partner which has already taken on the pany DVCPRO-HD codec and supports the camera and codec in AVID Xpress Hd,,so you should hopethat avid extends its already existing support to the pinnicle editor as well

[turk]

So Jan, with all the hyperbole and run up hype for the illusory dvxprohdxxx at NAB, will Panasonic do the brilliant thing: Offer a NAB authorized retailer discount coupon to those who prepay a deposit on a dvxproxxx whilst at the show? Buy the prepaid NAB $250 deposit coupon for $125 at the panasonic booth, cash it in with any authorized dealer when the camera hits the street...

Sounds like a winner to me! The Panasonic booth just might look like the floor of the commodities exchange on a hot day.

I'll look for the coupon at the show!

Always thanking you in advance!

turk

[stephenlnoe]

Jamloser,

I like the way you think....

[Oz]

I'm sold on the upcoming camera based on just the following alone: 24P, 4:2:2, and recording to P2. Forgive me though, I still have to sift through all these threads, but is the camera also 16:9?

And what else do we know about the lens? Think we'll finally get hard stops for the focus ring?

[reservoir]

Yeah....when Panasonic takes tha' mic....that place is gonna' go *buck-wild* like the Chicago Mercantile Exchange on a Federal Reserve Announcement Day!! ~reservoir~

[Barry_Green]

I still have to sift through all these threads, but is the camera also 16:9?
It's HD, and all HD is 16:9, so it would be a reasonable guess to say that it's 16:9-native. However, that hasn't been confirmed. I can't fathom how it wouldn't be 16:9-native, but until it's official, just remember that no confirmation has been made.