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tommygdawg
10-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Hey All


Anyone else had this problem? My strap rivets broke and shortly thereafter my LCD stopped working and the camera stopped taking photos, but it still took video.

I sent it in for repair, and, before doing so I put the original firmware back on. Got the camera back, now I can't put hacked firmware on. This is so disappointing, not to mention it took them almost 2 months. Anyone else had similar issues?

Vitaliy Kiselev
10-01-2010, 02:21 PM
They replaced motherboard to new one.
With V1.34.
Panasonic uses unprecedented security measures with v1.34 firmware.
Non of service centers got it. Factory only.

tommygdawg
10-01-2010, 02:26 PM
I'm Sorry Vitaliy, I don't understand exactly what you're saying. Are you telling me that I SHOULD still be able to hack the firmware? Or that only new cameras are unhackable?

The Invoice doesn't say anything about them changing the motherboard. It says they replaced the following parts:

Chip Fuse DC 32V 1 5A
Chip Fuse DC 32V 1 25A
Fuse
Fuse DC 32V 2A

svecher
10-01-2010, 02:27 PM
It will be interesting to see how they handle upcoming G2 and lens updates ...

Unless they plan having all G2 bodies or kit lenses physically sent in for lobotomy they will have to publicly release firmware. Thereby opening up their cards. Sounds like a loosing proposition.

svecher
10-01-2010, 02:30 PM
I'm Sorry Vitaliy, I don't understand exactly what you're saying. Are you telling me that I SHOULD still be able to hack the firmware? Or that only new cameras are unhackable?

Tommy, please use instructions in the following post (http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2044384&postcount=2) to get into Temporary Service Mode and check firmware version.

Vitaliy Kiselev
10-01-2010, 02:32 PM
I'm Sorry Vitaliy, I don't understand exactly what you're saying. Are you telling me that I SHOULD still be able to hack the firmware? Or that only new cameras are unhackable?

The Invoice doesn't say anything about them changing the motherboard. It says they replaced the following parts:

Chip Fuse DC 32V 1 5A
Chip Fuse DC 32V 1 25A
Fuse
Fuse DC 32V 2A

You just can call them and ask if they have v1.34 firmware (yes, it is unhackable one) and if they flashed it.
I do not know anything about service centers that have it.
This is why I told about MB replacement.

tommygdawg
10-01-2010, 02:42 PM
Alright, so I checked and the firmware version is 1.34. Vitaliy are you saying I can still hack 1.34?

Fool4UAnyway
10-01-2010, 02:59 PM
Hey All


Anyone else had this problem? My strap rivets broke and shortly thereafter my LCD stopped working and the camera stopped taking photos, but it still took video.

I sent it in for repair, and, before doing so I put the original firmware back on. Got the camera back, now I can't put hacked firmware on. This is so disappointing, not to mention it took them almost 2 months. Anyone else had similar issues?

The replaced parts might just concern the LCD screen.

Did the camera show a message that you were unable to take any photographs, or did it tell you that you should reboot it?

If Panasonic did not replace any firmware chip and just put V1.34 on, would it be possible to create a PTool patch requiring a particular file on the SD Card with a customizable password to update from there on? The password would have to be entered in PTool then to allow the check to take place.

That way, Panasonic would (hopefully) not be able to destroy our magnificent adjustments to the product.

[Edit]
What I mean is, for cameras that are (still) hackable, it would be nice if we could prevent Panasonic to upgrade it by the normal procedure if we force our added hackware to require a password file for any further upgrade.

If a user enters his password in PTool to upgrade firmware including this patch + password, he himself knows which password the file should contain. Panasonic wouldn't know and if they just try to upgrade by the normal procedure, they won't be able to.

Vitaliy Kiselev
10-01-2010, 03:02 PM
No. I am not saying this.
I just asked to call them and ask if they have 1.34 and if they flashed it.
And if we could get 1.34 in posession it'll become hackable :-)

tommygdawg
10-01-2010, 04:54 PM
Good luck getting the 1.34 firmware, I highly doubt they'll release it for this very reason. I'm thinking about calling up Panasonic and giving them an earful, but I don't know if that will do any good.

When it was broken, any time I tried to take a photo I'd get a message in the viewfinder saying "Please turn camera off then on again".

3Tigers
10-01-2010, 09:38 PM
Wow that sucks. That'll make me think twice about sending my camera in for repair for a broken plastic part near the LCD hinge...

tommygdawg
10-01-2010, 09:44 PM
Indeed, I'm very disappointed. There's basically no way to get around this either short of buying a new camera, and honestly my opinion of Panasonic has been really sullied in all this. I really don't have any desire to buy a GH2 or AF-100 after this.

Homunculus
10-01-2010, 11:29 PM
vitaliy i propose a ruse for panasonic. we get one gh1 outfitted with some custom script inside of it that is invisible and records any changes. then we break something on it and send it in to panasonic repair. then when they insert v1.34 your custom script records v.1.34 somehow so that you are then able to extract it later and view it and hack it. possible?

PappasArts
10-02-2010, 01:21 AM
honestly my opinion of Panasonic has been really sullied in all this. I really don't have any desire to buy a GH2 or AF-100 after this.

Gotta agree. It's pretty nasty on Panasonic's part. It' shows how petty Panasonic can be... Normally owners can download and catch up to a newer shipping firmware of a product they just bought a month earlier that came with the previous firmware. You buy a GH1 right before the 1.34 shipping versions; so now you don't get the latest 1.34; that's unheard of. Anytime Canon ups the firmware on the 5DMII, they allow pre-existing owners to upgrade to current shipping FW. Panasonic show's their dark side on this IMO...

Michael Pappas
http://www.facebook.com/PappasArts
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com

dcloud
10-02-2010, 02:03 AM
1st. the update came before the hack so i dont think its because of the hack
2nd. lets wait for the new lens compatibility firmware upgrade.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

Framerate
10-02-2010, 04:03 AM
1st. the update came before the hack so i dont think its because of the hack
2nd. lets wait for the new lens compatibility firmware upgrade.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

It's difficult to regard it as anything other than a deliberate act to prevent the hack. If this was a 'normal' f/w upgrade that just *happened* to prevent P-Tool, then it would have been posted in the usual way for universal download & installation.

Since it's not available publicly, and since it was furtively apllied to June + cameras with no announcement, what else could it be than a 'hack blocker'?

Panasonic might feel that they have perfectly valid legal & commercial reasons for preventing the hack - but it's rather underhand of them to [i] apply it to production units with no prior notification, and [ii] apply it to cameras returned for repair - again, without notification or consent.

Chris Light
10-02-2010, 04:16 AM
if my strap rivet breaks, the last thing i would do is send it in for repair...mistake #1.

that's just my opinion, and has nothing to do with panasonic reaffirming their firmware on my cam. just find other means of supporting your camera...seriously....i have never trusted a strap (or the hardware by which is hangs) ever...my hands work better. honestly, i didn't know people still send their cameras in for such a repair....seems as antiquated as bringing shoes to a cobbler to be re-soled. who does THAT?

EDIT: drunk post

Ted Ramasola
10-02-2010, 04:30 AM
Isnt that something you can sue? I mean, someone did something to a camera you own, something that you didnt tell them to do? Not Panasonic the company, but maybe sue the tech guy who did something unauthorized? Just a thought. -maybe someone knowledgeable with legal stuff can chime in.

Black_Ste
10-02-2010, 04:37 AM
1st. the update came before the hack so i dont think its because of the hack
2nd. lets wait for the new lens compatibility firmware upgrade.

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

Also remember than Panny went on to announce firmware update for G2 only to add 3D lens support, while there is no such word on updates for other G series cameras. Of course they still could announce it, but I would not hold my breath.

My feeling is that GH1 will be back in favour for a firmware update only when they stop manufacturing GH1. I keep wishing I am wrong...

Chris Light
10-02-2010, 04:38 AM
In my block, at the corner a guy sent his kids to college re-soling shoes. He's still there as we speak. And he has a lot of customers especially students from a nearby university. :-) Don't forget this is aglobal forum, your just in america.

Back to the topic, isnt that something you can sue? I mean, someone did something to a camera you own, something that you didnt tell them to do? Not Panasonic the company, but maybe sue the tech guy who did something unauthorized? Just a thought. -maybe someone knowledgeable with legal stuff can chime in.

"Offend a Cobbler" believe you me, that was on my bucket list. Check.:thumbsup:

Framerate
10-02-2010, 07:49 AM
if my strap rivet breaks, the last thing i would do is send it in for repair...mistake #1.

that's just my opinion, and has nothing to do with panasonic reaffirming their firmware on my cam. just find other means of supporting your camera...seriously....i have never trusted a strap (or the hardware by which is hangs) ever...my hands work better. honestly, i didn't know people still send their cameras in for such a repair....seems as antiquated as bringing shoes to a cobbler to be re-soled. who does THAT?


Except that it's not just a matter of choosing to live with camera that has a missing strap lug.

The lugs fall out because the nut on the shank falls off inside the camera. That nut can then cause major damage by shorting out the PCB's.

Note that the OP stated that his strap lug fell off - and *then* the LCD screen stopped working.

Presumably, it stopped working because the offending nut had shorted something out in the camera.

He, actually, was lucky - in that he was still able to re-load original f/w prior to sending it back to Panasonic (I'm assuming it was a warranty claim)

If the strap lug falls off and the nut shorts something out to the extent that the camera is 'dead' , you have a problem if hacked f/w is on it and you want warranty work.

tommygdawg
10-02-2010, 01:51 PM
Thanks framerate :) you are most correct. I certainly had no intentions of sending it in due only to broken strap rivets, however the inability to take photos or use the LCD was a major issue for me.

In fact i may not have sent it in if it was just the lcd that was broke, but who knows, it may have gotten worse after that too.

You`re quite right that i was lucky in being able to reflash the original firmware or i highly doubt they would have repaired it. Though I don`t ever believe Panasonic has the right to secure my camera so I can`t hack it. If we were to continue on this train of thought then I might as well also give up my right to smash my camera with a hammer, just because Panasonic doesn`t want me to.

Chris Light
10-02-2010, 02:51 PM
sorry for sounding like an a$$...i was in a sarcastic mood this morning :-)

tommygdawg
10-02-2010, 03:28 PM
No problem, I've been in quite the mood myself since my camera was returned to me.

Blackout
10-02-2010, 04:04 PM
If I sent my Panasonic GH1.3 hacked cam in for repair I would send it with specific NOTES that they are NOT to touch ANY of my firmware or software modifications and if they did, I would drive into their factory with a Halo jeep and take everyone down.

dts
10-02-2010, 06:21 PM
so the moral of the story is: DON'T USE THE STRAPRIVET ?? so i will leave the gh13 unstrapped :thumbsup:

mtan
10-02-2010, 06:28 PM
f$#@ Panasonic, I was going to buy a Gh2 and some lenses, maybe I will go the Nikon route since they now have autofocus. It doesn't take much for me to abandon a crappy company that does stuff like this.

James0b57
10-02-2010, 07:01 PM
f$#@ Panasonic, I was going to buy a Gh2 and some lenses, maybe I will go the Nikon route since they now have autofocus. It doesn't take much for me to abandon a crappy company that does stuff like this.

Are you into photography? Nikon is the same or worse than panasonic in the video realm. They are slow to adopt the standards, and make no real updates, just relentlessly minor tweaks, giving the consumer just enough to hang on, buying this year's new body till the next body "fixes" their issues.

Yeah, panasonic is now on the sucks list too, since they took away the hack option, they want us to pay $5999 for an AF100.

Personally, I will not get an AF100 since it doesn't have 4:2:2 color space. That means it is just an expensive dslr with xlr mic in and zebra bars. It won't be the worst VFX camera, but at that price range, I'd feel gypped that it is only 4:2:0.

And I will not get their GH2 either. Ah well.

Budget: T2i
Enthusiast: 5D
Pro: RED 1 MX (i know there are some red haters, but it is cheaper than sony and arri, while producing about the same results. But if you have a choice, than you don't need to read this forum thread.)

James0b57
10-02-2010, 07:03 PM
But I see how many people in video work will find the AF100 a good tool. Just too specific a tool for me for that price range. Didn't mean to turn this into another AF100 thread.

tommygdawg
10-02-2010, 07:10 PM
I was looking into the GH2 myself as well, but certainly not now. I really don't like what Panasonic's doing. As for the AF-100, I never was really interested in it. I don't understand how it's really a competitor at it's price range, I agree that it's a glorified DSLR. If I had the money, I would buy Red in an instant.

I'm just so frustrated.

James0b57
10-02-2010, 07:30 PM
Sometimes I feel that these forums help the companies know exactly how and where to skimp on features, while still getting us to buy.

We all keep saying: "If only I had this, I would be set." and then that one thing they leave out, or make the image quality only slightly better, so that we are placated for another 6months, but have to buy in again.

Some people write: "10 years ago we would be selling organs to buy these things." and "We asked for slr video and we got it." Yeah? I don't remember asking for alias, moire, jello, mud, without TC, no manual control cameras that don't have audio capabilities, and oh, I think it is 2010, anyways, not 1999, or '70 or whenever it was that we would have severed an arm for these things.

The technology is there to make a well rounded video capable dslr, the manufacturers just haven't gotten around to it yet. So, if I complain about what is out and available today, I am simply letting my opinion be heard, and hopefully others agree, and if enough of us share our ideas, than hopefully more people will agree, and then maybe the manufacturers will make a camera that I like.

If you hope for the bare minimum and tell others that they are asking for too much, then you are just setting yourself up to get an 17mb/s piece of plastic. We live in a wonderful era where the technology is there, just not the necessity. Too many fan-boys and "pragmatists" making it easy for us all to accept what we are being doled out. Their arguments muddy the debate, and make it harder for requests of basic improvements to be taken seriously. The time wasted on these back and forth's defending who and what company detract from conversations about craft and art.

There were a few years in the video world, when we didn't have to think too much about our purchase, since all the cameras above $2k were good enough for most broadcast requirements. But since the advent of HD, the game has changed. HD has been forced upon the profession, welcome or not.

Seeing as technology has come down in price drastically in the last ten years, I do not see why any of us would have to be excited about being able to afford full 1080p or larger sensors. A DVX without a servo lens, audio interface, and precision tape mechanism would not cost more than $1000, and that is all a camera body is anyway, so why make excuses for companies? They should be able to meet our basic requirements at record prices.

Furthermore, some of you may enjoy that the high expense of gear creates a safety net for your career, but I say welcome the thousands of dreamers and enthusiasts into the field. I see it as a video revolution much like the printing press, type writer, or computer was for writers, or the democratization of photography. It will only spur people to go further, and introduce a larger talent pool to the field.

So, who cares if people on this forum are bashing companies for putting out half baked video solutions for interchangeable large sensor cameras. Let them bash! They do not need to settle. If you are satisfied with the way these cameras perform, or if you are so high-minded that you are more concerned about the "story", then what the F%^& are you doing on this forum in the gear section?!

tommygdawg
10-02-2010, 09:28 PM
James, after that novel you wrote, it's still not clear to me what you're saying. No matter, I'm sure it's quite off topic anyways.

The topic is that Pansonic changed my firmware when they were supposed to fix a few fried electrical parts, and it took them almost two months. Not cool. That's all I'm saying.

DanDOF
10-02-2010, 10:59 PM
Well James I appreciate your words, even if they are off-topic. Caught my attention more than just a one-liner.

Homunculus
10-03-2010, 01:10 AM
Are you into photography? Nikon is the same or worse than panasonic in the video realm. They are slow to adopt the standards, and make no real updates, just relentlessly minor tweaks, giving the consumer just enough to hang on, buying this year's new body till the next body "fixes" their issues.

Yeah, panasonic is now on the sucks list too, since they took away the hack option, they want us to pay $5999 for an AF100.

Personally, I will not get an AF100 since it doesn't have 4:2:2 color space. That means it is just an expensive dslr with xlr mic in and zebra bars. It won't be the worst VFX camera, but at that price range, I'd feel gypped that it is only 4:2:0.

And I will not get their GH2 either. Ah well.

Budget: T2i
Enthusiast: 5D
Pro: RED 1 MX (i know there are some red haters, but it is cheaper than sony and arri, while producing about the same results. But if you have a choice, than you don't need to read this forum thread.)

af100 will be about 4900 not 5999

but I agree with you on the color space thing. real bummer.

Blackout
10-03-2010, 02:09 AM
The plain fact of the matter is that yeah, they AF-100 will introduce a lot of professional workflow features... but st 24mbits.... unless they do some CRAZY magic... I can't see it beating the hacked GH1.3 image.... at least not beating it byt $4000 worth of money!!!!!

Already it is obvious that the hacked gh1 image blows the pants off the hvx200a and hpx170 in 99% of footage - except for color space and very fast moving action....

But only geeks know this... the audience doesn't know if you spent $1000 or $6,000, and the fact of the matter the hacked GH1 smahses the hvx and hps.. it takes a big poo on it. It also smashes the entire line of Canon hd-dslrs.....

The only thing fanboys of the canons can do is cry about better low light.... but I would way rather have the detailed double resolution and clarity of the GH1.3 then the low light color smoosh soft resolution of the canons.. and I DID my homework like a nutcase pixel peeping both cameras to DEATH.

So.. it comes down to this... GH2 seems like it's going to be a big waste of time or just an extra toy for GH1.3 users.

AF-100 seems like it's not really going to do anything better for the image, but will have all the pro support and in's and outs... but is that REALLY worth $4000 more? Unless you are shooting constantly with full crews on tight schedules and high budgets..... the end all IQ image quality will most likely be the same I am thinking.... if not BETTER on the hacked gh1s.

Sorry... 24mbit does NOT CUT IT on high detail 1920 x 1080 no matter how smart there codec is.

bonobored
10-03-2010, 06:46 AM
Nobody should be sending cameras in for strap lug failures. It's an easy fix. You can find the repair manual online. If you know it's loose and don't address it in a timely manner you will have problems.

tommygdawg
10-03-2010, 10:22 AM
Nobody should be sending cameras in for strap lug failures. It's an easy fix. You can find the repair manual online. If you know it's loose and don't address it in a timely manner you will have problems.

Perhaps if you read the thread you would see that I did not send it in purely for the failure of strap rivets. That's twice now that someone has failed to read and then gotten on my case for doing something I didn't do. Seriously people. And for the record, I didn't even realize they were loose. From what I noticed, one time the left side was on, and the next time it wasn't.

Framerate
10-03-2010, 11:16 AM
Perhaps if you read the thread you would see that I did not send it in purely for the failure of strap rivets. That's twice now that someone has failed to read and then gotten on my case for doing something I didn't do. Seriously people. And for the record, I didn't even realize they were loose. From what I noticed, one time the left side was on, and the next time it wasn't.


I forgot to ask you - how old was the cam?

Was it an 09, or a 2010 model?. The later cams are supposed to have a modified lug fastening, using a small piece of plastic that fits over the internal nut and prevents it from turning (and falling off)

If yours was a later cam (and I'm assuming that it was less than 12 months old because it qualified for warranty) then maybe the problem isn't as fixed as Panasonic might want to believe.

Frankly, it's a disgrace that the strap lugs fall out anyway! - I've owned cameras from most of the major manufacturers at various times - and not once did it even cross my mind that the strap fixings would fall to bits!

tommygdawg
10-03-2010, 11:29 AM
I bought in the very early part of the year as a "warehouse" deal from Amazon, I think it was used or a refurb or something like that? I can't quite remember. In any case, it was probably an '09 model that I got.

Crosby!
10-03-2010, 03:28 PM
I bought in the very early part of the year as a "warehouse" deal from Amazon, I think it was used or a refurb or something like that? I can't quite remember. In any case, it was probably an '09 model that I got.

Sorry about the problems and unwanted firmware update. Glad they fixed the lugs under warranty though since it's a refurb -- assuming it was within the 90-days, if no, you scored.

On the upside, if you really don't like it (did they change the sensor?) you can still sell it on eBay/Amazon. After all, you now have a recently serviced non-hacked or hackable camera someone will surely want. Then you can look for a hackable version.

Good luck!

Fool4UAnyway
10-03-2010, 04:03 PM
Just wondering how to prevent Panny from doing this we do not like them to do to the stuff we own...

If one were to have two GH1's, one of which would have a problem like this and the other one not hackable, would it be possible to exchange the firmware chips between the cams and send the broken GH1 with the new V1.34 firmware to Panny?

That would be another alternative way to make our firmware survive.

No thoughts, anyone, on the password file I mentioned earlier?

Ben_B
10-03-2010, 04:21 PM
Are you into photography? Nikon is the same or worse than panasonic in the video realm. They are slow to adopt the standards, and make no real updates, just relentlessly minor tweaks, giving the consumer just enough to hang on, buying this year's new body till the next body "fixes" their issues.

Yeah, panasonic is now on the sucks list too, since they took away the hack option, they want us to pay $5999 for an AF100.

Personally, I will not get an AF100 since it doesn't have 4:2:2 color space. That means it is just an expensive dslr with xlr mic in and zebra bars. It won't be the worst VFX camera, but at that price range, I'd feel gypped that it is only 4:2:0.

And I will not get their GH2 either. Ah well.

Budget: T2i
Enthusiast: 5D
Pro: RED 1 MX (i know there are some red haters, but it is cheaper than sony and arri, while producing about the same results. But if you have a choice, than you don't need to read this forum thread.)

If you're going to spend the extra tens of thousands of dollars for a RED system why not just spend the few thousand and get an external P2 recorder for the AF-100 and use HDSDI or HDMI out?



The plain fact of the matter is that yeah, they AF-100 will introduce a lot of professional workflow features... but st 24mbits.... unless they do some CRAZY magic... I can't see it beating the hacked GH1.3 image.... at least not beating it byt $4000 worth of money!!!!!

Already it is obvious that the hacked gh1 image blows the pants off the hvx200a and hpx170 in 99% of footage - except for color space and very fast moving action....

But only geeks know this... the audience doesn't know if you spent $1000 or $6,000, and the fact of the matter the hacked GH1 smahses the hvx and hps.. it takes a big poo on it. It also smashes the entire line of Canon hd-dslrs.....

The only thing fanboys of the canons can do is cry about better low light.... but I would way rather have the detailed double resolution and clarity of the GH1.3 then the low light color smoosh soft resolution of the canons.. and I DID my homework like a nutcase pixel peeping both cameras to DEATH.

So.. it comes down to this... GH2 seems like it's going to be a big waste of time or just an extra toy for GH1.3 users.

AF-100 seems like it's not really going to do anything better for the image, but will have all the pro support and in's and outs... but is that REALLY worth $4000 more? Unless you are shooting constantly with full crews on tight schedules and high budgets..... the end all IQ image quality will most likely be the same I am thinking.... if not BETTER on the hacked gh1s.

Sorry... 24mbit does NOT CUT IT on high detail 1920 x 1080 no matter how smart there codec is.

I don't know how much you've used the HPX-170 and the HMC-150, etc, but they beat the crap out of the GH13 for resolved resolution and image quality. Specifically the HMC-150, at 24Mb, has a much better codec that records a much cleaner image than the GH13. Even with my hacked camera (which is great) I still sometimes see areas of blockiness in high detail, or pixely fuzz around edges (which is likely exacerbated by the aliasing)...the HMC 150 doesn't do that, at all. Take a look at some of your footage, zoom in to 400% or so on the edge of a person in focus, and take a look at the edge on playback...chances are your hack didn't fix that. HMC-150 doesn't have that, HMC-150 codec implementation really kicks ass...it's ass good as Sony EX1, etc, and I don't have any problem doing whip pans in a forest with either camera, and I've done it with both (given the university I attend is located IN a forest.)

Ian-T
10-03-2010, 04:27 PM
I don't know how much you've used the HPX-170 and the HMC-150, etc, but they beat the crap out of the GH13 for resolved resolution and image quality.
Really? You are actually the first person I've seen say that. Not saying it isn't true...but I do recall an unscientific video test over a year ago with the
(pre=hacked) GH-1 and the 170. As far as detail the DSLR was on par or had it beat. Now....if we are talking about codec quality....the yeah you're right.

bonobored
10-03-2010, 04:44 PM
Perhaps if you read the thread you would see that I did not send it in purely for the failure of strap rivets. That's twice now that someone has failed to read and then gotten on my case for doing something I didn't do. Seriously people. And for the record, I didn't even realize they were loose. From what I noticed, one time the left side was on, and the next time it wasn't.

You sent it in because you didn't pay attention and let the nut from the strap lug rattle around inside and short out your electronics. I have heard this sad story more than once. Let this be a heads up to others who are still using the lugs. If they rotate at all you have a potential problem. The best option is to not use the strap lugs at all. It's a design flaw of the camera.

tommygdawg
10-03-2010, 05:36 PM
You sent it in because you didn't pay attention and let the nut from the strap lug rattle around inside and short out your electronics. I have heard this sad story more than once. Let this be a heads up to others who are still using the lugs. If they rotate at all you have a potential problem. The best option is to not use the strap lugs at all. It's a design flaw of the camera.

My fine-feathered friend, I did not even have the camera when the strap lugs broke (as far as I'm aware). I lent it to a friend to do some wedding photos, and that's how it came back. My fault? I don't think so. Yes, perhaps you could argue "don't lend out your camera", but it's not like this is my friend's fault or mine.

And really, are you telling me not to use the strap? That's what it's there for! It is NOT my fault that Panasonic created faulty strap lugs that don't work correctly. Blame it on me all you want for using the strap lugs, but I really don't think that's fair since that's what they're there for.

And on a further note, why on earth am I defending myself here? The thread isn't even really about the broken strap lugs, rather about Panasonic performing unwanted upgrades. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Maye you have recommendations about rather or not I should other features on the camera? If you have opinions on how I should or should not use the standard features of my camera in the future, please keep them to yourself.

James0b57
10-03-2010, 05:41 PM
If you're going to spend the extra tens of thousands of dollars for a RED system why not just spend the few thousand and get an external P2 recorder for the AF-100 and use HDSDI or HDMI out?


The extra recorder doesn't put these two cameras in the same class. So, that is not exactly a logical conclusion.

I did not list the semi-pro class, as there are many options that could make one camera a better value than the other. The AF-100 is somewhat in the semi-pro class, but is lacking in its native capabilities. The external recorder will bump it up to higher data rates and 4:2:2, but still only 8 bit, from what I hear.

The AF100 has the luxury of being the first of its kind, but it is still lacking certain key features that I would like in that genre and price range.

alignment1
10-03-2010, 05:45 PM
Really? You are actually the first person I've seen say that. Not saying it isn't true...but I do recall an unscientific video test over a year ago with the
(pre=hacked) GH-1 and the 170. As far as detail the DSLR was on par or had it beat. Now....if we are talking about codec quality....the yeah you're right.


wow really?? news to me too

James0b57
10-03-2010, 05:48 PM
My fine-feathered friend, I did not even have the camera when the strap lugs broke (as far as I'm aware). I lent it to a friend to do some wedding photos, and that's how it came back. My fault? I don't think so. Yes, perhaps you could argue "don't lend out your camera", but it's not like this is my friend's fault or mine.

And really, are you telling me not to use the strap? That's what it's there for! It is NOT my fault that Panasonic created faulty strap lugs that don't work correctly. Blame it on me all you want for using the strap lugs, but I really don't think that's fair since that's what they're there for.

And on a further note, why on earth am I defending myself here? The thread isn't even really about the broken strap lugs, rather about Panasonic performing unwanted upgrades. Is there anything else you'd like to add? Maye you have recommendations about rather or not I should other features on the camera? If you have opinions on how I should or should not use the standard features of my camera in the future, please keep them to yourself.

I think Vitaliy answered the question to your initial post on page one. Do you have any more questions? Sorry, if we haven't answered all your queries yet.

Ben_B
10-03-2010, 06:16 PM
Really? You are actually the first person I've seen say that. Not saying it isn't true...but I do recall an unscientific video test over a year ago with the
(pre=hacked) GH-1 and the 170. As far as detail the DSLR was on par or had it beat. Now....if we are talking about codec quality....the yeah you're right.


wow really?? news to me too

It might look like it has more detail but there is a lot of false detail...bigger sensor can have some advantages though...but if you shoot a res chart with both you'll see the real video camera will resolve significantly better resolution...and yes, the codec is going to be much better to...obviously the HPX-170 has a much better codec, but so does the HMC-150!

reem12
10-03-2010, 06:45 PM
At this point I'm in agreement with others here concerning the af100 being a mutant size dslr that probably will not render that much of a significant image spike to warrant an additional $4000 price tag.

I'm sick of these big companies monopolizing as they do. For this recent stunt they have pulled I will not be investing in the af100 and will lobby others not to as well.

Framerate
10-03-2010, 06:51 PM
Let this be a heads up to others who are still using the lugs. If they rotate at all you have a potential problem.

Not really true. The modified lugs are supposed to move a few degrees in either direction (hard to be precise, but say 6 or 7 degrees - certainly not much)

There is a plastic plate that fits over the head of the internal nut which is supposed to stop any movement beyond the few degrees referred to above. If the lug *does* move more that that it hasn't got the mod - and is destined for trouble.

Given the very short shank onto which the nut screws, a couple of revolutions would be enough to see it fall of the end.



The best option is to not use the strap lugs at all. It's a design flaw of the camera.

True - but that's a very poor reflection on Panasonic quality. A bit like buying a car and having to climb in and out via the window because the door might fall off if you opened it ;)

Camera Expert
10-03-2010, 07:44 PM
I think the HMC150 and the HPX170 are really not good examples on how the picture quality of the AF100 is going to look. I would rather use the HMC40 as an example. In good lighting, that thing is a bit sharper than both of those camcorders.

Andreus
10-04-2010, 02:21 AM
At this point I'm in agreement with others here concerning the af100 being a mutant size dslr that probably will not render that much of a significant image spike to warrant an additional $4000 price tag.

I'm sick of these big companies monopolizing as they do. For this recent stunt they have pulled I will not be investing in the af100 and will lobby others not to as well.

AMEN!!!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: Boycott Panasonic. I will not buy a single new product from them until they support Vitaly and the hack and will tell everyone I know here (I go to a major film school in Los Angeles) to do the exact same. Can we get a website up for this BOYCOTT OF PANASONIC?:kali:

Screw these conglomerates who think they can railroad/bully their own customers. :thumbdown :kali: :thumbdown I have bought thousands of $$$ worth of Panasonic cameras and lenses on eBay and Craigslist in the last 90 days, just to spite them :grin: (and guess what -- I saved $ money doing it AND got better equipment than I would have gotten from them in the process.) :Drogar-Love(DBG):

And I will most certainly NOT be spending $4000 on an AF-100 !! Or $2000 on a GH2, the most overpriced crap second generation product ever. The GH1 is much better and costs less. Aren't digital cameras supposed to get better AND cheaper with each generation? But Panasonic can violate all these basic competitive practices -- they innovate less, cripple products, and charge MORE? AND railroad our hack?!?!:furious3:

"I want you all to get up, go to the window, open it and yell, ' I'm as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore! ' " - Network (1976)

BOYCOTT PANASONIC UNTIL WE GET SUPPORT FOR 4 HACK!

We're as MAD AS HELL and we're NOT gonna take it ANY MORE Panasonic!:furious3: :violent5:

shaveblog
10-04-2010, 05:40 AM
I'm not good at sniffing this sort of thing, so please tell me you were kidding.


AMEN!!!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: Boycott Panasonic. I will not buy a single new product from them until they support Vitaly and the hack and will tell everyone I know here (I go to a major film school in Los Angeles) to do the exact same. Can we get a website up for this BOYCOTT OF PANASONIC?:kali:

Screw these conglomerates who think they can railroad/bully their own customers. :thumbdown :kali: :thumbdown I have bought thousands of $$$ worth of Panasonic cameras and lenses on eBay and Craigslist in the last 90 days, just to spite them :grin: (and guess what -- I saved $ money doing it AND got better equipment than I would have gotten from them in the process.) :Drogar-Love(DBG):

And I will most certainly NOT be spending $4000 on an AF-100 !! Or $2000 on a GH2, the most overpriced crap second generation product ever. The GH1 is much better and costs less. Aren't digital cameras supposed to get better AND cheaper with each generation? But Panasonic can violate all these basic competitive practices -- they innovate less, cripple products, and charge MORE? AND railroad our hack?!?!:furious3:

"I want you all to get up, go to the window, open it and yell, ' I'm as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore! ' " - Network (1976)

BOYCOTT PANASONIC UNTIL WE GET SUPPORT FOR 4 HACK!

We're as MAD AS HELL and we're NOT gonna take it ANY MORE Panasonic!:furious3: :violent5:

Ben_B
10-04-2010, 07:54 AM
I'm not good at sniffing this sort of thing, so please tell me you were kidding.

God I hope so..given that the AF-100 kicks serious ass and was Panasonic giving the pro video community exactly what they wanted. If you won't buy an AF-100 for $4995 (not $4k, I wish!) then you probably weren't the guy buying an HVX-200 for $6,000 or any other piece of pro gear from them so why should they care? It's a totally kick ass camera.

As for the GH2, it costs $900, not $2000, and has some great new features...basically everything we wanted for the GH1, including live HDMI out (unmolested save for a recording icon which could easily be cropped out,) manual audio controls (including level monitoring while recording,) a live zebra type feature, a vastly improved codec with b-frames and a higher bitrate, more programmable function buttons, a touch screen, and extremely fast and reliable auto focus. Sounds like a pretty nice upgrade to me.

James0b57
10-04-2010, 12:53 PM
Panasonic giving the pro video community exactly what they wanted.

They are giving us what we wanted in 2007. It is nearly 2011.
(actually, people were sawing off the front ends of dvx's to attach their own lenses before 2003.)


The climate has changed and the technology has changed. They are not going out of their way to "help" us, they are just keeping up with the competition.

I do not mind it when companies cannot develop a product due to hardware and manufacturing processes, but it does sting when they are holding back a product in the software only. And not only that, but spending time and resources to prevent hacking.


--------------

If you look at the msrp for the af100, it is exactly the same price point as the dvx100, once you factor in 20-25% inflation.

Does that mean it is a good deal? No, it actually means it is overpriced.

Look at the production cost of a dvx vs. an af:
-Servo zoom lens vs. no lens
-3 CCD vs. 1 CMOS
-Tape deck vs. memory card reader/writer
-1394/Component/S-Video vs. HDSI/HDMI

It appears the af100 has potential for panasonic to make higher profit margins than the dvx100.

Another factor is that inflation has gone up since 2001, but salary has not kept up. That means buyers are more strapped for cash and cannot make as big of margins off of their purchases. Add that to the change in industry trends from large mass market to smaller web market, and salaries have dropped further.

Ben_B
10-04-2010, 02:27 PM
Production cost is not the only factor. Look at the R&D costs necessary to develop HD imagers, large CMOS sensors, AVCHD, etc. It makes sense that modern equipment will cost about the same as its older counterparts did...lens or no.

James0b57
10-04-2010, 02:49 PM
Ben, would you buy the af100 if it cost $6000?

Doppler9000
10-04-2010, 03:55 PM
I'm sick of these big companies monopolizing as they do. For this recent stunt they have pulled I will not be investing in the af100 and will lobby others not to as well.

For what it's worth, a "monopoly" exists when there is just a single supplier to a market.

Are you suggesting that Panasonic, Canon, Nikon, etc., are not competing with each other and have instead entered into a conspiracy to withhold cheap, high quality video cameras so that the professional is forced to buy the more expensive models? Or, could it be, that you get what you pay for. The recent arguments seem akin to complaining that the Yaris could be made faster and handle better, but that Toyota refuses to do so so that people are forced to buy a more expensive car. If you want the performance of 350Z, you will have to pay for it. It seems that you do not have any experience with the higher quality cameras, and are rejecting any performance advantage they might hold based on pure supposition.

James0b57
10-04-2010, 07:26 PM
For what it's worth, a "monopoly" exists when there is just a single supplier to a market.

Are you suggesting that Panasonic, Canon, Nikon, etc., are not competing with each other and have instead entered into a conspiracy to withhold cheap, high quality video cameras so that the professional is forced to buy the more expensive models? Or, could it be, that you get what you pay for. The recent arguments seem akin to complaining that the Yaris could be made faster and handle better, but that Toyota refuses to do so so that people are forced to buy a more expensive car. If you want the performance of 350Z, you will have to pay for it. It seems that you do not have any experience with the higher quality cameras, and are rejecting any performance advantage they might hold based on pure supposition.

It is more like if Panasonic made a truck but used software to reduce the power of the engine to 1/3. The GH1 is a great little camera, but crippled by Panasonic firmware. That is not a conspiracy, that is a fact.

Doppler9000
10-04-2010, 08:32 PM
It is more like if Panasonic made a truck but used software to reduce the power of the engine to 1/3. The GH1 is a great little camera, but crippled by Panasonic firmware. That is not a conspiracy, that is a fact.
It is not a "fact" that Panasonic "crippled" the GH1.

For the vast majority of its users, it works perfectly well.

Panasonic is interested in selling a very reliable product that meets the expectations of its users, without card read errors, calls to the service desk, etc, etc. The GH1 did that. The GH1, G10, G2, GH2, Gf1, etc. are testament to the success of Panasonic's approach to the mirrorless market segment. Matsushita, the parent of Panasonic, has consistently produced among the most reliable products in market segments ranging from VCRs to vacuum cleaners. They are willing to trade the ultimate in performance for reliability, simplicity, ease of use, lower backend costs, for a product targeted at a mainstream market segment.

Why do you think Panasonic "crippled" the GH1? Please, tell us of the hidden agenda.

James0b57
10-04-2010, 09:32 PM
It is not a "fact" that Panasonic "crippled" the GH1.

For the vast majority of its users, it works perfectly well.

Panasonic is interested in selling a very reliable product that meets the expectations of its users, without card read errors, calls to the service desk, etc, etc. The GH1 did that. The GH1, G10, G2, GH2, Gf1, etc. are testament to the success of Panasonic's approach to the mirrorless market segment. Matsushi*a, the parent of Panasonic, has consistently produced among the most reliable products in market segments ranging from VCRs to vacuum cleaners. They are willing to trade the ultimate in performance for reliability, simplicity, ease of use, lower backend costs, for a product targeted at a mainstream market segment.

Why do you think Panasonic "crippled" the GH1? Please, tell us of the hidden agenda.

There is no conspiracy or hidden agenda. They are a very successful company that brings competitive products to market for huge profits.

The GH1 has potential beyond what Panasonic allows it, and they prevent users from hacking it to do so. To my knowledge they have made no statement on the subject, so the reasons for doing this are their own, but they have no conspiracy.

reem12
10-04-2010, 09:36 PM
Doppler9000 I was referring to companies with the ability to control by way of being the main player able to supply a certain product at any given time, thus causing consumers to depend on their other inferior firmware until they see fit to feed us what we really want.

In a nutshell, Panny and other companies alike have been exposed by vitally, meaning that It's as simple as software to make it's customers happy. So yes I say monopoly, Control, however you would like to phrase it.

Ben_B
10-04-2010, 09:48 PM
Ben, would you buy the af100 if it cost $6000?

I won't buy it at $4995 because it's more camera than I personally need for the level of work I'm doing. Would I rather shoot with one than any other $6,000 camera? Hell yes. And that's really what you need to look at. I'd much rather shoot on this than an EX1r or any other camera at this pricepoint.

James0b57
10-04-2010, 10:09 PM
I won't buy it at $4995 because it's more camera than I personally need for the level of work I'm doing. Would I rather shoot with one than any other $6,000 camera? Hell yes. And that's really what you need to look at. I'd much rather shoot on this than an EX1r or any other camera at this pricepoint.

If you're not planning on buying a camera in this range, I really don't have much to discuss with you on the topic. Not to say you are not an excellent DP, which I believe you are, but it seems rather frivolous.

geta
10-04-2010, 11:21 PM
Same at here!

Seems I am unlucky enough to get a "new version" of GF1. I asked a friend to get two brand new GF1s for me from Japan few days ago, while I check the body's firmware version, it had been already upgraded to 1.2. Anyway, I follow the patching procedures but the patched firmware doesn't work for the body. I use the same procedures on the other GF1 which is working fine (this one's firmware version 1.1). So I guess there is sth changed inside the body?

Doppler9000
10-05-2010, 10:13 AM
Doppler9000 I was referring to companies with the ability to control by way of being the main player able to supply a certain product at any given time, thus causing consumers to depend on their other inferior firmware until they see fit to feed us what we really want.

In a nutshell, Panny and other companies alike have been exposed by vitally, meaning that It's as simple as software to make it's customers happy. So yes I say monopoly, Control, however you would like to phrase it.
Probably a bit pointless to continue on this thread, but....

Your premise relies on either stupidity or a conspiracy on the part of Panasonic, Canon, Nikon, Sony, etc. You assert that all of these companies are withholding better products for some mysterious reason, and "feeding" the market, placating it with inferior goods. Do these companies compete, or not?

If they compete, then presumably they will offer the product they feel best suits the intended market - they are not going to bring out products that are intentionally crippled, are they?

It seems more likely that, as I wrote earlier, Panasonic wants a super reliable product that doesn't create a flood of calls to the service desk. Margins are way too tight for that. You may be happy with a 10% rate of "card read error" - Panasonic is not.

Canon is getting hammered by Nikon this year - do you think they are withholding better products as they watch their ass get kicked? Do you think Panasonic has proprietary software that is simply better than what Canon could produce?

If they don't compete, they collude (conspire).

The market you identify "we", is a tiny fraction of a rounding error for a company like Matsushita. The GH1, for example, didn't rank in the top 20 DLSR/ILC cameras sold in the first half of 2010, selling under 1% of unit volume (the GF1 was 7th, with a 6.1% share). The budget "pro" indie filmmaker market is not one a company like Matsushita is interested in. The GH2 specs rather bear this out, no?

Kellar42
10-05-2010, 10:29 AM
If you're not planning on buying a camera in this range, I really don't have much to discuss with you on the topic. Not to say you are not an excellent DP, which I believe you are, but it seems rather frivolous.

This seems weird to me. How many really professional DPs own their own gear? Ben can't have an opinion because he's not going to buy the camera? How is that frivolous on his part? He wants to shoot on one, when he can. Not everyone can afford the setup right now.

James0b57
10-05-2010, 11:33 AM
This seems weird to me. How many really professional DPs own their own gear? Ben can't have an opinion because he's not going to buy the camera? How is that frivolous on his part? He wants to shoot on one, when he can. Not everyone can afford the setup right now.


Thanks for bringing that up, Kellar. It was a very short reply, and perhaps easy to misread. There is nothing frivolous about Ben, and no one is trying to stop him from making his opinion known. I just realized that we were two guys on a forum talking about a piece of gear we do not plan on owning. We have different reasons, but our reasons lead us to the same point.

RieniO
10-05-2010, 01:41 PM
Did you ever consider the possibility that the people who repaired your GH1 might not even be aware of the hack and that they were just trying to do you a favor by upgrading the firmware? All they know maybe is that in order to make a camera work optimal you should upgrade to the most recent software/firmware, I guess any camera repair man working for any brand would do this.

RieniO
10-05-2010, 01:57 PM
There's a lot of negative crap going around in here lately but the below really beats it all. Nobody here is asking you to buy any Panasonic product. It's free world. Get out of here and go buy something else. Buy some crack.


AMEN!!!!!!! :thumbup: :thumbup: Boycott Panasonic. I will not buy a single new product from them until they support Vitaly and the hack and will tell everyone I know here (I go to a major film school in Los Angeles) to do the exact same. Can we get a website up for this BOYCOTT OF PANASONIC?:kali:

Screw these conglomerates who think they can railroad/bully their own customers. :thumbdown :kali: :thumbdown I have bought thousands of $$$ worth of Panasonic cameras and lenses on eBay and Craigslist in the last 90 days, just to spite them :grin: (and guess what -- I saved $ money doing it AND got better equipment than I would have gotten from them in the process.) :Drogar-Love(DBG):

And I will most certainly NOT be spending $4000 on an AF-100 !! Or $2000 on a GH2, the most overpriced crap second generation product ever. The GH1 is much better and costs less. Aren't digital cameras supposed to get better AND cheaper with each generation? But Panasonic can violate all these basic competitive practices -- they innovate less, cripple products, and charge MORE? AND railroad our hack?!?!:furious3:

"I want you all to get up, go to the window, open it and yell, ' I'm as mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore! ' " - Network (1976)

BOYCOTT PANASONIC UNTIL WE GET SUPPORT FOR 4 HACK!

We're as MAD AS HELL and we're NOT gonna take it ANY MORE Panasonic!:furious3: :violent5:

RieniO
10-05-2010, 02:03 PM
Exactly. We created a list of requests for the GH2 in here and it seems that all our requests have been fullfilled by Panasonic.

If I was working for Panasonic and reading all the negative crap about them in here I would feel really shitty.

I guess this is what the internet does to some people. Hiding behind their monitors and have big mouths about anybody and anything, cowardly taking out their frustrations, shouting that everything should be for free and that THEY, the masters, deserve the best of the best. But in fact they're just pathetic nobodies.


As for the GH2, it costs $900, not $2000, and has some great new features...basically everything we wanted for the GH1, including live HDMI out (unmolested save for a recording icon which could easily be cropped out,) manual audio controls (including level monitoring while recording,) a live zebra type feature, a vastly improved codec with b-frames and a higher bitrate, more programmable function buttons, a touch screen, and extremely fast and reliable auto focus. Sounds like a pretty nice upgrade to me.

Doppler9000
10-05-2010, 02:37 PM
There is no conspiracy or hidden agenda. They are a very successful company that brings competitive products to market for huge profits.

Another factual correction - Panasonic has lost (net income) over 570 Billion Yen since the beginning of fiscal 2009. A huge sum indeed.

svecher
10-05-2010, 03:04 PM
Did you ever consider the possibility that the people who repaired your GH1 might not even be aware of the hack and that they were just trying to do you a favor by upgrading the firmware? All they know maybe is that in order to make a camera work optimal you should upgrade to the most recent software/firmware, I guess any camera repair man working for any brand would do this.
I am the GH1 owner and the latest firmware version available to me is v1.32. Why is Panasonic not doing me "a favor" by withholding the latest and greatest firmware (v.1.34) that some of the owners apparently are getting?

Fool4UAnyway
10-05-2010, 03:09 PM
Though not 100% comparable, I thought this might be a similar situation to show that Panasonic at least isn't doing anything possible to satisfy all their customers who own any product of theirs.

It's like sending in your computer for repair because whatever isn't functioning well and you get it back, repaired, though to find that the alternative Internet Browser you were using has been removed and replaced by Internet Explorer, because you are using Microsoft Windows, and you won't be able anymore to use any other Browser.

Would you think of this as a (repair) company "trying to satisfy customers" or "trying to apply their wishes by abusing customers' needs situations"?

If Panasonic wants to make a reliable product, that's fine.
If Microsoft wants to promote Internet Explorer, that's fine.

But no company should ever be allowed to force me to drive my car with at least one, or even both hands, always holding the steering wheel. I can decide for myself if I want to drive the safe way, or just remove my hands for a very short time.

Anyone might argue that it's best or safest to at least keep one hand at the wheel, but would you accept never being able to take both of, anymore?

Addition:
I also have a GH1 which tells me to reboot. All of a sudden, I wasn't able to take any pictures anymore. Video mode still functions. I do not know what happened.

I mailed the Panasonic Service Centre, accidently mentioned the firmware version of another camera I own, V1.7. They replied that the firmware should be replaced. I explained I was mistaken. I went to a couple of stores and told them about my problem. Their first response was that the firmware should be replaced.

The (not so) funny thing is: this happened just after I applied the V1.32 firmware released in May. I told them all as well. I did not even know about the hack back then and found out about it searching for a possible solution. It seemed to me this couldn't be just a firmware problem. It turned out not to be, because the hack allowed me to re-place the same firmware and later even prior version after applying the "version compare" patch. Neither firmware version solved my problem.

So, by firmware alone, my problem can't be solved. It also seems hard to believe that there is a software part in this. I mentioned a few suggestions in trying to avoid having the Service Centre replace the firmware by V1.34. Unfortunately, no-one has replied to those.

I am still considering if I should send my camera for repair.

svecher
10-05-2010, 03:50 PM
The market you identify "we", is a tiny fraction of a rounding error for a company like Matsushi*a. The GH1, for example, didn't rank in the top 20 DLSR/ILC cameras sold in the first half of 2010, selling under 1% of unit volume (the GF1 was 7th, with a 6.1% share). The budget "pro" indie filmmaker market is not one a company like Matsushi*a is interested in. The GH2 specs rather bear this out, no?


Another factual correction - Panasonic has lost (net income) over 570 Billion Yen since the beginning of fiscal 2009. A huge sum indeed.
Perhaps herein lies the problem. Successful high-tech companies understand that markets are not monolithic and successful ones identify key business segments and cater to each one with a specific product set. In current economic environment (which seems to be here to stay) very few companies can afford to treat niche markets as "rounding errors."
Panasonic's (Lumix division) case is interesting. On one hand, they (along with Olympus) have taken radical steps in engineering department, by inventing their own sensor size, getting rid of the mirror and all associated legacy "plumbing" (metering, autofocus sensors) that still exist on modern "Digital" SLRs. Lumix's halo model is truly the best and most-digital camera out there consumers can buy. However, they are marketing it like they would a vacuum cleaner. The times have changed. Today a "cellphone" without internet/wifi/bluetooth connectivity and no ability for some customization via "apps" or another mechanism is effectively a dinosaur. Camera business is getting there. Who will be the first to break the old business model mold and adapt to the digital era remains to be seen ...

Skeptikal
10-05-2010, 08:02 PM
Another factual correction - Panasonic has lost (net income) over 570 Billion Yen since the beginning of fiscal 2009. A huge sum indeed.

I quess that should tell them something about their Marketing Department's strategy ...should it not?

As a personal example, I totally ignored the GH1 for a year and bought a Canon 5D2 and lots of lenses because of the 17mbps GH1 limit. Then along comes the hack. Total reversal of attitude based on my first experience with a GH13. Canon gear sold...several GH13 bodies and lenses bought.

Now they are repeating the same thing with the GH2...no 25p for PAL users; HDMI out with icons imbedded...



If it was not necessary to put 1.34 on someone's camera during repair but they did it anyway....that's disappointing.

Ben_B
10-06-2010, 02:12 AM
If you're not planning on buying a camera in this range, I really don't have much to discuss with you on the topic. Not to say you are not an excellent DP, which I believe you are, but it seems rather frivolous.

Just because I am not gonna buy one doesn't mean I'm not gonna shoot with one.

Vitaliy Kiselev
10-06-2010, 02:57 AM
If it was not necessary to put 1.34 on someone's camera during repair but they did it anyway....that's disappointing.

I don't think that they upgraded firmware. Most probably MB had been replaced, just in case.
All new MBs come with 1.34 preinstalled.

And as for rants about Panasonic and his actions.
Generally, they won't hear us. This is few managers fighting for their place under the sun who make such decisions. And ability to make proper decision is always hard, as it impose risk.

Doppler9000
10-06-2010, 07:15 AM
I quess that should tell them something about their Marketing Department's strategy ...should it not?



I'm going to go with "not".

Panasonic sold over $183 billion US in fiscal 2009 and 2010. Not sure that better addressing the GH13 market would have reversed the losses. Now, if you are arguing that this bizarre and intentional crapping up of products is more widespread in the company and results in, say, vacuums that suck far less than they should and TVs that have intentionally poor pictures then you might have a point.

I suspect the losses are due more to the global recession, though, than failing the GH13 market.

By the way, what do you estimate would be the annual sales for a hacked GHx that has card reading, buffer overflow, freezing, banding, weave pattern and other reliability/performance issues? It might be fine for an indie documentary maker, but if you have a full union crew shot set up, with actors, etc., and you get a card read error, the savings on the camera compared to say, a RED, will quickly become losses. The target market for the camera wants relative ease of use and 100% bulletproof reliability - it doesn't care about ultimate bit rates - they are not making films for broadcast. The hack is very cool, but let us not confuse it with a viable consumer product.

James0b57
10-06-2010, 11:06 AM
Generally, they won't hear us. This is few managers fighting for their place under the sun who make such decisions. And ability to make proper decision is always hard, as it impose risk.

That is very true.

I was talking with a Korean man who worked for the city to approve building projects. Back then it was popular for city officials to take bribes to ignore engineering faults on the construction buildings and even bridges. One day he refused to approve a bridge and his leaders got mad at him, they worked around him and got the bridge approved. Later on the bridge collapsed, and Korean citizens died.

People are going to be greedy even in important situations, as long as they make a profit and get away with it.

James0b57
10-06-2010, 11:27 AM
I'm going to go with "not".

Panasonic sold over $183 billion US in fiscal 2009 and 2010. Not sure that better addressing the GH13 market would have reversed the losses. Now, if you are arguing that this bizarre and intentional crapping up of products is more widespread in the company and results in, say, vacuums that suck far less than they should and TVs that have intentionally poor pictures then you might have a point.


Tthe GH line of cameras. They are great little products. I have seen some great videos from GH users, as well as many other dslr users.

But they add on just enough annoying features to it to make it annoying for indie film making use.

The hi-rez HDMI out is great, but they add the little bleeping record symbol, so that the HDMI can not be used for recording a 4:2:2 stream to an external recorder. The fast readout speed of the sensor is great, but it is held back in 24mbs/ and 17mb/s land, and perhaps for stability reasons, but then when a hack is figured out, a timely firmware update arrives, that happens to prevent mb/s increases.

It is sad to see a piece of gear being held back because it is not aimed at our target market. It is hard to see that the tech is there, right there in your hands, and yet held back by software coding that the company put in place to make sure it was annoying to the film maker. Of course, maybe they just missed it, maybe they do not even realize it is annoying, because they do not even know that film makers are even considering this as a tool?

tommygdawg
10-06-2010, 11:29 AM
I think the major issue here is that Panasonic is releasing a GH2, and they're worried about a hacked GH1 showing up the GH2. It seems like the smartest and most shrewd business maneuver to me. Of course, it doesn't satisfy customers at all, but I really don't think Panasonic is worried about this.

The issue here is that when you start really factoring in customer satisfaction and start trying to be a company that is more concerned with doing something good for an industry or a group of people, rather than making the most profit, your own production costs tend to go way up. We see this all the time: handmade guitars costs a LOT more than mass-manufactured guitars, for example. As a guitar player and guitar major at school, this is a big issue for me and really applies to other situations. For example:

It costs anywhere from a couple hundred dollars or less to $1,000 dollars just for the materials to build your own guitar. This isn't factoring in the cost of tools that you will have to buy for your first one. So let's say you're an experienced guitar builder, and you spend around $800 just for the BEST materials to build the guitar.

Then what do you do? If you're an experienced professional like James Olson (he builds a lot of acoustics for big name players), you sell it for a *starting price* of $12,000. That's for the most basic model.

A similar guitar bought from, say, Gibson (which undoubtedly makes GREAT guitars, and I'm a fan-boy of them) will run you anywhere from $1,000 to $4,500, give or take. Why is this? Because with Gibson you're buying a good product, yes, but it's a product that has had an entire factory building it so they can get it out the door in a matter of weeks as opposed to a wait time of six months to a year from someone like James Olson.

Here's the crucial question: does Gibson care if I choose to sell my Gibson, save up money, and buy and Olson-made guitar? No, they most certainly do not, and so their main goal is not pleasing me, but making a profit and perhaps pleasing me in the process or as a by-product of their success.

This is one of the reasons I love Red as a company. I've never shot on Red, but I like that their business model is not to make a major profit (yes, they need to make a profit, I know) and monopolize the market, but rather to create a camera that is good and to give something great to the industry. But that's the thing, isn't it? Red is targeted towards a small group of people: the film industry. Panasonic GH1's and GH2's are generally targeted at a wider group of people: consumers and possibly indie film makers.

The only thing that burns me up here is Panasonic locking out the firmware hack, but I can still understand why it is that they're doing it from a business standpoint. They care about as much as Best Buy does when you try to return a DVD and you say "if you don't let me return this, you'll lose a customer!" They don't care because you make up a very SMALL portion of their income.

James0b57
10-06-2010, 11:45 AM
I think the major issue here is that Panasonic is releasing a GH2, and they're worried about a hacked GH1 showing up the GH2. It seems like the smartest and most shrewd business maneuver to me. Of course, it doesn't satisfy customers at all, but I really don't think Panasonic is worried about this.

The issue here is that when you start really factoring in customer satisfaction and start trying to be a company that is more concerned with doing something good for an industry or a group of people, rather than making the most profit, your own production costs tend to go way up. We see this all the time: handmade guitars costs a LOT more than mass-manufactured guitars, for example. As a guitar player and guitar major at school, this is a big issue for me and really applies to other situations. For example:

It costs anywhere from a couple hundred dollars or less to $1,000 dollars just for the materials to build your own guitar. This isn't factoring in the cost of tools that you will have to buy for your first one. So let's say you're an experienced guitar builder, and you spend around $800 just for the BEST materials to build the guitar.

Then what do you do? If you're an experienced professional like James Olson (he builds a lot of acoustics for big name players), you sell it for a *starting price* of $12,000. That's for the most basic model.

A similar guitar bought from, say, Gibson (which undoubtedly makes GREAT guitars, and I'm a fan-boy of them) will run you anywhere from $1,000 to $4,500, give or take. Why is this? Because with Gibson you're buying a good product, yes, but it's a product that has had an entire factory building it so they can get it out the door in a matter of weeks as opposed to a wait time of six months to a year from someone like James Olson.

Here's the crucial question: does Gibson care if I choose to sell my Gibson, save up money, and buy and Olson-made guitar? No, they most certainly do not, and so their main goal is not pleasing me, but making a profit and perhaps pleasing me in the process or as a by-product of their success.

This is one of the reasons I love Red as a company. I've never shot on Red, but I like that their business model is not to make a major profit (yes, they need to make a profit, I know) and monopolize the market, but rather to create a camera that is good and to give something great to the industry. But that's the thing, isn't it? Red is targeted towards a small group of people: the film industry. Panasonic GH1's and GH2's are generally targeted at a wider group of people: consumers and possibly indie film makers.

The only thing that burns me up here is Panasonic locking out the firmware hack, but I can still understand why it is that they're doing it from a business standpoint. They care about as much as Best Buy does when you try to return a DVD and you say "if you don't let me return this, you'll lose a customer!" They don't care because you make up a very SMALL portion of their income.

You make great points. The bestbuy example is especially apt.

The guitar is more of a hardware, material, and master craftsman cost thing. The GH is simply a software issue. The tech is there, just being held back by software.

Panasonic is still making video cameras with the old business model, and that may still satisfy many, meanwhile there is a new one springing up, and is increasingly dissatisfied with their products. (dito for all the other manufacturers)

Technology in other areas has put new expectations on the video camera industry. Computer processing power has become ridiculously compact and powerful; look at the Motorola Droid. And CMOS sensor technology is being driven by cell phone cameras. It is an amazing engineering feat to get some many efficient pixels on sensors that small! The low light and noise suppression technology that is developed in these little CMOS sensors is also being applied to their bigger brothers.

tommygdawg
10-06-2010, 11:54 AM
It's true you're right. I was just using the guitar as an example of the idea that if you really want to be satisfied as a customer, you're going to pay for it. Mass production companies can't really even try to satisfy every customer, so they try to satisfy the ones that make up their largest profit margin for a certain product. I've heard that service times for cameras sent in for repair are much faster if you're sending in a higher end model in the $6k to $10k range (for most companies). Not sure of the veracity of that, but it makes sense, again getting what you pay for.

And I agree that limiting the GH1's hardware with software is quite ridiculous, but I can understand the business reasons behind doing so. And I think this is also proof that the camera industry is especially inflated. If Panasonic marketed the GH1 as a 40mbps production camera out of the box, I'm fairly certain it would cost a whole lot more than it does now.

TempTag
10-06-2010, 12:56 PM
Tommygdawg, I read through the posts and did not see one thing. (And if I missed it I apologize.)

Thank you for posting your experiences with the repair and replaced firmware. You have given the rest of us a heads up and something to think about before we send any GH1 out for repair.

tommygdawg
10-06-2010, 03:02 PM
You mean you couldn't find other topics pertaining to this issue?


In any case, no problem. As long some other people can work it out before it happens to them. :)

TempTag
10-06-2010, 03:14 PM
I did not mean other topics, I meant replies to your original post. I read a lot of debate on what you should or should not have done, or what Panasonic should or should not be doing, but not a simple thanks for posting the information - so I wanted to pass that along.

:thumbsup:

Fool4UAnyway
10-06-2010, 03:27 PM
I don't think that they upgraded firmware.
Most probably MB had been replaced, just in case.
All new MBs come with 1.34 preinstalled.

And as for rants about Panasonic and his actions.
Generally, they won't hear us. This is few managers fighting for their place under the sun who make such decisions. And ability to make proper decision is always hard, as it impose risk.

I don't now. Why is it every person I talk to about my problem almost immediately tells me the firmware has to be replaced?

An other reply I got was to reinitialize the camera. I wouldn't want to do that before storing my settings. In the store the customer service guy nicely asked if any footage on the card could be deleted. That was no problem to me. Next thing he did was reinitialize the camera, without asking this time...

I get to thinkinig it's not so "just in case" if they replaced it.

By the way, would it be possible that you overlooked anything in being able to apply hacks to any later firmware? I mean, could it be that up till now we have been able to hack more or less just by luck?

Would it be possible to allow PTool to increase the major version number to 2 and see if that makes a recognized firmware upgrade?

James0b57
10-06-2010, 04:10 PM
...but not a simple thanks for posting the information - so I wanted to pass that along.

:thumbsup:

Very true. Thanks Tommygdawg, for warning us, and putting the word out. :thumbsup:

svecher
10-06-2010, 04:46 PM
Yes, Tommydawg, thanks for giving us a heads up and sorry for off-topic ranting on my part.

Somewhere in the stickies section of the GH1 Hack subforum there needs to be a note that sending a camera in for warranty repair potentially involving motherboard replacement will very likely result in repaired camera arriving with firmware 1.34 installed. Given how central MB is to controlling all aspects of cameras functions I would guess that any non-trivial warranty request will run a high risk of that happening.

tommygdawg
10-06-2010, 05:29 PM
Thanks all! :)


I'd just like to say that I'm not sure if they actually replaced the mobo. The parts listed were only for some fuses and strap rivets. However, I'm not sure how the fuses and all apply to overall function or if they replaced the motherboard without saying.