what can i get with $50,000

[Mwjace]

So just a little curious, next year we will have a budget of 50,000 to purchase 2 cameras and accessories (lens, controllers, recorders etc). because of policies i can only buy 2 cameras no more no less but i can purchase all the accessories i need to out fit the 2 cameras. i'm wondering if i purchased 2 AF-100s that would be about 10,000 spent, leaving me with of course 40,000 to use. we already have 2 nanoflash recorders and 6 32gig flash cards, and some nice Vinten Tripods, so i don't need any of that. I figure i really would be spending the rest on lenses

I don't know a lot about lenses but i would want some really nice high quality ones. so in yalls expert opinions what would you do. would you go bananas and buy one or two really expensive lenses, would you get a variety of primes and zooms? which companies would you look at? the work we do is primarily documentary style projects, interviews and B roll.

[James Bridges]

Hey Mike,
What kind of shooting do you do?
Do you have time to change out lenses (ie prime lens).
Do you do a lot of zooming?
Does the zoom you need require you to hold focus throughout the zoom range.
Will you need to power the zoom for smoother response?
I would definately purchase more CF cards for the Nano (I own 13)
As well as SD cards.
I am on a wait list for the AF100 and have a few powering questions for my Nano.

[bumkicho]

Get a 22x HD ENG lens from either Canon HJ series or Fujinon HA series for around $30K.
Get the last B4 to FD adapter and a FD to m4/3 adapter.
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2034362&postcount=1

Just a thought. Only 50% serious. ^^

[Dan_Kanes]

Get 2 used Red One Packages with the Allstar Mount system, and a set of Nikkor AI-S glass. For monitoring get two smallHD DP-6 monitors with HD-SDI. Get 16gb CF Cards for nowm and if you need more, sell your nanoflash, etc. if you get the price way down on the red bodies, you could get one 18-50 red Zoom (not the best, but a PL zoom) and perhaps some of the Red Pro Primes.

If you are teaching cinematography - Red is THE setup to get. If you are teaching video production, get Two AF-100's with the Birger Canon Mount, and Get CP-2 Zeiss with the canon mount fpr your primes, then you can use canon zooms, and zeiss primes. Plenty of options there.

Here is a link to some reds for sale:

http://reduser.net/forum/showthread.php?t=50039

this dude is a broker with all kinds of gear and has sold to schools before. He's a bit eccentric, and italian is his native language, but people really seem to like him.

[robertrogoz]

Like someone said- the answer would depend on what kind of work you do. I would suggest investing into good rail, crane with rc p/t head. I would also invest into a good power generator, lights and grip tools.
Also remember about sound equipment, proper mixer, good boom pole.

[Steve Kahn]

If you are teaching cinematography - Red is THE setup to get. If you are teaching video production, get Two AF-100's.
Curious as to why you make this distinction.

Many of the older ASC guys I know would say if you're teaching cinematography 8mm or 16mm or super35 is the ONLY way to go.

[hunter richards]

The students are just going to break most of it anyways, id say get them af100's and some nice support (nice tripods, a decent dolly, decent jib, great audio gear, good lighting kit with a few hmi's and kinos).

For lenses you could get a hotrod mount and get some PL mount primes and a decent cinema zoom. Or just rock some nikon/canon lenses (as you know the stuff will end up broken)

Documentary/interviews are much better jobs for a video camera than a Red.

[Dan_Kanes]

Curious as to why you make this distinction.

Many of the older ASC guys I know would say if you're teaching cinematography 8mm or 16mm or super35 is the ONLY way to go.

Here's my take from top to bottom, feel free to agree or disagree.

Regarding film: super 8 has spirit - it will give you a fervor for shooting that can't be beat. 16mm, unless you have a truly well maintained package and great glass, as well as time and money for a great telecine will produce crap results in all but the most well trained veteran's hands. 35mm - too costly for students, as well as all my arguments regarding 16mm being applicable here.

Regarding hdslr's - better image quality than achievable than with a trashed 16mm package. The following traits of "real cinematography" apply to hdslrs, red one, and AF100:

1. Exposure - "iso/film sensitivity" not a sensitivity based on an arbitrary gain number.
2. Field of view that applies to cinema cameras. More or less, this is what distinguishes them from traditional video cameras. Yes, some films have been shot on 2/3" cameras, most look poopy to my eyes.
3. These cameras are on the forefront of camera technology. In 10 years if these students are working professionals then what they have learned will help them integrate into a working professional environment.

Here's another one: everyone I know who went to film school learned to cut on a steenbeck or moviola. Fun? Yes. Useful? Absolutely not. Same thing with film. If you want to teach kids how to get useable results NOW then you should be teaching with digital cameras. Film loading can be taught later when they apply for an internship at panavision or Otto Nemenz.

The OP must care about image quality if he has a nanoflash. He's restricted to two cameras, no more no less. Two stripped down R1's will produce great image quality and teach a respect for the equipment (I'd hope). You could always go with one r1 and one af100, but identical systems is a good way to go. I have nothing against the af100, but Red will teach the kids about a raw workflow and is truly one of the best modular camera systems in the world. Af100 fits a more traditional broadcast/eng form factor with aspects of high end digital cinematography thrown in so it's a great compromise and leaves more for accessory purchase. I'd agree that two af100s and a set of good lights and grippage is a good idea. Sneak two gh2's or some 60d's in there for good measure and get lenses that work with all your cams. Nikkors, contax zeiss, zf's or cp2s are all good choices. Red is just really an amazing cam and makes for good training.

[hunter richards]

Dan, the original poster said "primarily documentary style projects, interviews and B roll", Red is fine for b-roll- but as an a-cam for documentary- you have to be off your rocker to choose a Red one over a video camera for that.

Edit: misread, doh!

[Jeremy_Sawatzky]

if you have 50 grand. and u do documentary work. i would go with what you mentioned. 2 af-100's, hd monitoring. very nice lenses. i think that sensor is guna be able to produce some exceptional images with good glass. Spend the rest on sound equipment, lighting, dollies. another thing to consider is if u want 4:2:2, get a good recorder. Im no expert in equipment by any means. Buy 50 grand is ALOT to spend on af-100s. make the company happy and give em 15 grand back. ul still have 2 decked out af-100s

[Peter J. DeCrescenzo]

Hi Mike Jeffs: I recommend you hire Hunter Richards for a few days of consulting before you spend a penny on gear. Seriously! :-)

[Mwjace]

Like someone said- the answer would depend on what kind of work you do. I would suggest investing into good rail, crane with rc p/t head. I would also invest into a good power generator, lights and grip tools.
Also remember about sound equipment, proper mixer, good boom pole.

this is such a tricky question because we do anything the campus wants us to do. we are not the Academic arm of the university, we are in a very real sense there in-house video production department. we create content for university use. while we hire students we are not a class environment.

as for the other equipment you mentioned. I have budget for that, we have power, Light (studio Field) i have a 14' crane with p/t head , as for sound we have a whole separate department for that :)

its nice to work in a environment where they give you what you need, even with the recession enrollment is up so each year they keep giving us what we ask for,

[Mwjace]

The students are just going to break most of it anyways, id say get them af100's and some nice support (nice tripods, a decent dolly, decent jib, great audio gear, good lighting kit with a few hmi's and kinos).

For lenses you could get a hotrod mount and get some PL mount primes and a decent cinema zoom. Or just rock some nikon/canon lenses (as you know the stuff will end up broken)

Yes students do break stuff, but we have very good replacement or repair avenues :)

as for other equipment i do have everything you have suggested so thats a Plus, exactly what you stated is my major dilemma, do i get high end pl mount primes or zooms or do i go for less expensive nikon canon lenses and just get more variety.

thanks for everybody's Ideas, your all invaluable.

[biginvegas]

Mix some old school S8mm, S16mm if you have the budget for film during the year. Students need to learn film it's not dead yet! Jeezus.

4x Nikon FE2's still camera's (with cheap 50mm lenses off ebay so they can learn how to expose a goddamn film camera!

For best S8 camera go to http://homepage.mac.com/onsuper8/ Im outta date for best deal's there.

One Aaton Minima S16 (I think you can find them for $10k now) eh Hunter?
Two AF100's ($10k)
Source two hackable GH1's with 14-140 kit lens ($2k) - 14-140 great for AF doc work when students dont want to pull focus and just shoot with GH1's or Af's
with Hot Rod PL x2 set up ($2800)
Two X Red Rock Follow focus ($1200)
Four x Think thank Media 20 photo/video bags $500
and a selection Of Nikon/Tokina Duclos primes, check out what they have in Used store as well ($15-20k)that way they get some pro lens gear they can learn how to use without destroying a Zeiss prime set.
http://ducloslenses.com/Duclos_Lenses/New.html
Kino flo kits Diva 400 and other smaller Kino kits, Kino's new practicals $4k ( Chinese kino on ebay knockoffs damn good and way cheaper )
2X lebec tripods with spreader and wheels $1400
Maybe a cheap $500 slider.
Let them figure out cheap dolly's, wheelchairs etc the spoiled brats

For RED education you can rent in one for a few weeks so kids can figure that thing out themselves, no need to buy for a school.

[eatstickyrice]

Wow, 50K! I wish I had that budget to work with. Getting AF100's seems to be the way to go for this season in the documentary industry. Since your budget is so good I'd recommend a set of Zeiss CP.2's, or even a Zeiss LWZ.2 15-45 lens. These pieces of glass have exceptional image quality. If you do some searches on Vimeo and Youtube you can dig up some good sample footage. Phillip Bloom also has some sample footage on his site. Alternatively, you could consider a set of Cooke Primes. The sample footage I saw with those on Phillip Bloom's site had amazing bokeh. To me, this is a perfect year to purchase some good glass. Who knows when someone above you will switch jobs, giving you a replacement to work for who is not as supportive, and therefore limits your budget.

Rick

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

Hmmm, old post.

Well, the guy said next year and we don't know WHEN next year.

However this year one will have lots of options, ranging from the AF-100, F3 to RED Scarlet. For doc and b-roll I'd definitely recommend Fixed Scarlet.

The guy didn't said anything about lighting, well, I guess he doesn't need it.

Regarding lens, he could get these primes: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/693072-REG/Zeiss_1769_713_CP_2_Compact_Prime_7_Lens.html

Or perhaps go with cheaper Zeiss EFs: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=zeiss+ef&N=0&InitialSearch=yes

Another course of action (even cheaper) is to go with Olympus f2 zooms, the 14-35 and 35-100, with the appropriate M43/43 adapter.

[mcgeedigital]

The students are just going to break most of it anyways, id say get them af100's and some nice support (nice tripods, a decent dolly, decent jib, great audio gear, good lighting kit with a few hmi's and kinos).

For lenses you could get a hotrod mount and get some PL mount primes and a decent cinema zoom. Or just rock some nikon/canon lenses (as you know the stuff will end up broken)

Documentary/interviews are much better jobs for a video camera than a Red.

I was going to type something like this but now i don't have to.

[yoclay]

Invest in good glass, it never goes out of style.

[Jay Birch]

However this year one will have lots of options, ranging from the AF-100, F3 to RED Scarlet. For doc and b-roll I'd definitely recommend Fixed Scarlet.

I would suggest not to build any plans around a Scarlet this year... even if it launches, who knows how long you could be sat on backorder? As someone with responsibility to his head of division... the original poster should stick with products that have a firm launch date.

For $50k, I would probably look into 2 x F3s... you already have the nanoflashs, audio, tripods etc... so $27k on cameras, $23k on lenses and accessories.

[William_Robinette]

this is such a tricky question because we do anything the campus wants us to do. we are not the Academic arm of the university, we are in a very real sense there in-house video production department. we create content for university use. while we hire students we are not a class environment.


Just my $0.02.

I used to work for a university department as a student that sounds exactly like what you are describing. Well funded, all aspects of light, sound, support taken care of pretty well. We had a RED and it was a PITA to take out into the field for doc type of work. Not saying it can't be done, but it was such a hassle it got left in the studio most of the time. I'd rather take a nice ENG camera with a proper video lens any day of the week and twice on Sundays then something with 35mm sized sensor. For sit down interviews it would be OK, but for anything shoulder mounted, run 'n gun, unplanned and unexpected action I'll take the shoulder mount 2/3" please. We ended up with a 3700 which was a dream. Just being able to take it out of the bag, throw a batt on there and go is much preferred then spending 10-15 minutes building up a heavy, unwieldy RED setup. The AF-100 would be better I suppose, but I'd still miss the 20x reach of a Fuji or Canon ENG lens.

[Lpowell]

The top-quality Four-Thirds zoom lenses made by Olympus are in a class by themselves. While they require a Panasonic or Olympus Micro 4/3 adapter to work with the AF100, the lens' AFS auto-focus, aperture control, and remote operation all work as on a native M4/3 lens. I have the following lenses and highly recommend them all:

Olympus 35-100mm f2.0 zoom lens (yes, it's f2.0, not a typo)
http://www.thewsreviews.com/2008/09/olympus-35-100mm-f20.html

Olympus 50-200mm f2.8-3.5 zoom lens
http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/454-oly502002835

Olympus 14-54mm f2.8-3.5 zoom lens
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1239/cat/15

I've tried out the following lens but don't yet own one:

Olympus 14-35mm f2.0 zoom lens
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/zuiko_digital_ed_14_35mm_f2_0_swd_review/

[Pietro Impagliazzo]

I would suggest not to build any plans around a Scarlet this year... even if it launches, who knows how long you could be sat on backorder? As someone with responsibility to his head of division... the original poster should stick with products that have a firm launch date.

For $50k, I would probably look into 2 x F3s... you already have the nanoflashs, audio, tripods etc... so $27k on cameras, $23k on lenses and accessories.

That's why I commented that he didn't make clear when. Start, middle of end of the year?


The top-quality Four-Thirds zoom lenses made by Olympus are in a class by themselves. While they require a Panasonic or Olympus Micro 4/3 adapter to work with the AF100, the lens' AFS auto-focus, aperture control, and remote operation all work as on a native M4/3 lens. I have the following lenses and highly recommend them all:

Olympus 35-100mm f2.0 zoom lens (yes, it's f2.0, not a typo)
http://www.thewsreviews.com/2008/09/olympus-35-100mm-f20.html

Olympus 50-200mm f2.8-3.5 zoom lens
http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/454-oly502002835

Olympus 14-54mm f2.8-3.5 zoom lens
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1239/cat/15

I've tried out the following lens but don't yet own one:

Olympus 14-35mm f2.0 zoom lens
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/zuiko_digital_ed_14_35mm_f2_0_swd_review/

Oh, that's good news. I have an Olympus 14-54 2.8~3.5 and a Sigma 105mm 2.8 Macro on the way for my GH1 (along with the adapter).

[Razz16mm]

Just my $0.02.

I used to work for a university department as a student that sounds exactly like what you are describing. Well funded, all aspects of light, sound, support taken care of pretty well. We had a RED and it was a PITA to take out into the field for doc type of work. Not saying it can't be done, but it was such a hassle it got left in the studio most of the time. I'd rather take a nice ENG camera with a proper video lens any day of the week and twice on Sundays then something with 35mm sized sensor. For sit down interviews it would be OK, but for anything shoulder mounted, run 'n gun, unplanned and unexpected action I'll take the shoulder mount 2/3" please. We ended up with a 3700 which was a dream. Just being able to take it out of the bag, throw a batt on there and go is much preferred then spending 10-15 minutes building up a heavy, unwieldy RED setup. The AF-100 would be better I suppose, but I'd still miss the 20x reach of a Fuji or Canon ENG lens.

Bingo. A couple of nice entry level 2/3" ENG cameras are much more appropriate for this kind of work than 35mm anything. The problem with the AF-100 is the lack of appropriate cine-grade fast servo zooms that really are the best choice for what you do. Buy two of these and spend the rest on batteries and SXS cards.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/657503-REG/Sony_PMW_350K_PMW_350K_XDCAM_EX_HD.htmlB (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/657503-REG/Sony_PMW_350K_PMW_350K_XDCAM_EX_HD.html)

[Jay Birch]

That's why I commented that he didn't make clear when. Start, middle of end of the year?


I think the point is still valid... the bomb EVF has been on back order for over a year.... Scarlet and it's accessories could be worse in terms of delivery (hopefully much better).

I don't want to sound like a RED hater... i'm hoping for an Epic-S myself.... but I think in this instance, with people to answer to at the college, RED is not ideal.

[Rick Burnett]

Okay, the Olympus 35-100mm f2.0 zoom lens sounds like a nice lens! Hadn't seen that one. One question, I have an AF100, what kind of minimal support system can I use to support it? I don't want a huge set of rails, as I am no using a matte box, or follow focus, on this setup. Does such a thing exist?

Also, while I think the Scarlet would be a perfect camera for this, without question, timeline means everything. To me, for a university environment, as much as it pains me to say this, I'd want a servo zoom for ENG style situations. That said, maybe consider two cameras then. One that you can use the easy to obtain shallow DoF for interviews and such where it will be nice, and a 2/3 or less servo zoom camera for situations where you need more freedom. Why get one camera type and limit yourself when you KNOW you are going to have lots of different challenging situations.

[Razz16mm]

I think the point is still valid... the bomb EVF has been on back order for over a year.... Scarlet and it's accessories could be worse in terms of delivery (hopefully much better).

I don't want to sound like a RED hater... i'm hoping for an Epic-S myself.... but I think in this instance, with people to answer to at the college, RED is not ideal.


I'm not sure any "cinema" type camera is a good choice for this kind of operation, especially if you are going to ever rely on operators with minimal skills and training. Over the shoulder ENG cameras have evolved to a very highly refined state for just this type of work.

[William_Robinette]

I'm not sure any "cinema" type camera is a good choice for this kind of operation, especially if you are going to ever rely on operators with minimal skills and training.

Bingo back.

[Lpowell]

Okay, the Olympus 35-100mm f2.0 zoom lens sounds like a nice lens! One question, I have an AF100, what kind of minimal support system can I use to support it?
Haven't tried it, but this looks like it may work as a minimal support bracket:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390114291229&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

[LightMast]

The top-quality Four-Thirds zoom lenses made by Olympus are in a class by themselves. While they require a Panasonic or Olympus Micro 4/3 adapter to work with the AF100, the lens' AFS auto-focus, aperture control, and remote operation all work as on a native M4/3 lens. I have the following lenses and highly recommend them all:

Olympus 35-100mm f2.0 zoom lens (yes, it's f2.0, not a typo)
http://www.thewsreviews.com/2008/09/olympus-35-100mm-f20.html

Olympus 50-200mm f2.8-3.5 zoom lens
http://www.photozone.de/olympus--four-thirds-lens-tests/454-oly502002835

Olympus 14-54mm f2.8-3.5 zoom lens
http://www.slrgear.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/1239/cat/15

I've tried out the following lens but don't yet own one:

Olympus 14-35mm f2.0 zoom lens
http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/zuiko_digital_ed_14_35mm_f2_0_swd_review/

Does the 14-54 extend as you zoom or is it self contained?

[Lpowell]

Does the 14-54 extend as you zoom or is it self contained?
It extends about an inch farther when you zoom.

[Rick Burnett]

Haven't tried it, but this looks like it may work as a minimal support bracket:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=390114291229&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Interesting! Thanks for pointing that out. The more I think about it, I can probably have something fabbed that is similar with a few changes. I'd worry about the camera spinning on this setup, but, maybe the rubber on there is strong enough to keep that from happening.